How much should a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die actually size?

[Rock021710]

I recently purchased a set of Lee's deluxe rifle dies in .300 Win Mag. The first time I reloaded anything with them, I used the collet die because the brass was fired in my rifle. As I got the brass sized and prepped for boolit seating, I noticed the fit of the boolit in the case mouth was rather loose. I tried seating the die deeper in the press like the instructions state but I still did not get a tight press fit like I do with other calibers. It was loose enough that when I seated the boolit, I could still move it deeper in the case with my finger. Even the lee factory crimp die would not crimp enough to hold it. I was wondering if anyone else had experienced this problem and if so what solutions have you come up with? Thanks

[462]

You may not have been applying enough down-force, at the end of the stroke.

[fishnbob]

I had this happen with a 22-250 collet die. I screwed it down and it tightened up enough to hold the bullet firmly. IIRC, if need be, Lee will make another collet smaller in size to keep from opening up the case too much, so you can seat a boolit firm enough to withstand handling and recoil when firing.
Mike your boolits and then the collet and call them and I am sure they will fix you up!

[1hole]

Thst excellant Lee die has a moving part and that demands a learning curve. Unlike conventional neck dies it's not a simple "push the case in, pull the case out" thing.

The instructions say to put about 20# of pressure on the lever, that should be plenty to force the collet fingers to form the neck to the center mounted mandrel. Additonal pressure can't make the neck any small than the mandrel but it can strip and push the die's top cap out - it's designed to do that rather than break the press or die body.

Seems most people feel that 3 or 4 thou of "bullet tension" (meaning the bullets are that much larger than the neck) is good; actually, it isn't. Using a bullet to expand necks more than about 1 thou simply stretches the metal in the neck passed it's limits and we only end up with a real bullet grip equal to that much. Lee's collet die tries to achieve a fit of 1 to 1.5 thou to reduce the potential for loaded bullet runout and that works very well.

BUT, we should not and cannot move a bullet that actually has that 1 thou of grip so you do have a problem.

Old, used cases have work harded and has more "spring-back" after sizing than softer brass so annealing it can improve sized neck fit. OR, you can chuck your mandrel in an electric drill motor and sand it down another thou - no more is needed. OR you can buy a slightly reduced mandrel from Lee for not much and keep what you have for sizing new or annealed cases.

[Rock021710]

My brass is once fired from factory ammo. Had to buy some. Didn't want to wait to try to scrounge. I may try chucking it up and polishing another thou off, but before I do I am going to try and see if I did not have the die adjusted right and if I was getting enough force on the press. I used to live in an apartment and made a portable reloading bench to use and be able to store. It's small and kinda flexible. Might have too much flex for this die. thanks for everyone's answers. I have had zero experince with the collet die but reloaded several hundred rounds for a .300 WSM with a full length die and noticed the brass was wearing prematurely. I was hoping the collet die wound help extend the life of this magnum brass. (Plus I learned that hotter is often not better;-)!)

[fourarmed]

Also, you can size the case, then rotate it slightly and size it again. The second sizing will gain about another thousandth. That may depend on the hardness of the brass somewhat.

[Donor8x56r]

Also, you can size the case, then rotate it slightly and size it again. The second sizing will gain about another thousandth. That may depend on the hardness of the brass somewhat.

That's what i do with 8x57 cases using Hand Press.Never fails me,always perfect.
Generally i found hand press perfect for resizing,than again i never FL size-back out die or neck sizer.

[rcbarry]

There is a reason they call it neck sizing. Here is what I do:

Set up your die the way you think it should be

In a safe place away from the powder, light a candle and use the flame to smoke the neck and shoulder of a piece of brass by passing it through the flame and turning it black (it gets hot!)

Run the smoked case up into the die and note the area with soot removed, that clean area is the resized area

Raise or lower your die according to your desires and retest.

Using this metheod will allow you to use full length resizer dies to neck size only.

:bigsmyl2:

[Buckshot]

There is a reason they call it neck sizing. Here is what I do:

Set up your die the way you think it should be

In a safe place away from the powder, light a candle and use the flame to smoke the neck and shoulder of a piece of brass by passing it through the flame and turning it black (it gets hot!)

Run the smoked case up into the die and note the area with soot removed, that clean area is the resized area

Raise or lower your die according to your desires and retest.

Using this metheod will allow you to use full length resizer dies to neck size only.

:bigsmyl2:

.............Sometimes that works, and sometimes not. FL size dies size a case down enough so it will (supposedly) fit ANY chamber for that cartridge. However, let's take the good ole 30-'06 for an example. It's been a military and commercial chambering for 104 years. I have 4 of'em. A 1903A1, M1917, 1903 Sporter, and a old Ruger M77 Round Top of 1973 vintage. My first 30-'06 dies were RCBS bought for the Ruger and they would neck size ammo fired in it.

My next 30-'06 was the -A1 and the dies would also re-size the shoulder OD (without setting the shoulder back) and IIRC about 3/8"-1/2" of the case below the shoulder. Before getting the other 2 rifles in 30-'06's Lee had come out with the collet die so I bought one, and if I want to neck size that's what I use. I use the RCBS dies for FL sizing only, and having the collet die never bothered to see what it would do if only trying to necksize for the other 2 rifles.

My point is that the FL die 'May' neck size without touching the balance of the case, but then again it may not. If you have several rifles in the came chambering chances are slim that one die will do them all, especialy with any oldsters or military versions in the mix.

...............Buckshot

[bchannell]

It is fairly common for a Lee Collet die to not size the neck down enough to hold a bullet. In this case, and I think it's included in the Lee instructions, you can chuck the center decap rod in a drill and polish it down a thousandth or two and get the bullet fit/drag you desire. It is not the collet itself, but the decap rod that determines the amount of sizing.

[mike in co]

.


Seems most people feel that 3 or 4 thou of "bullet tension" (meaning the bullets are that much larger than the neck) is good; actually, it isn't. Using a bullet to expand necks more than about 1 thou simply stretches the metal in the neck passed it's limits and we only end up with a real bullet grip equal to that much. Lee's collet die tries to achieve a fit of 1 to 1.5 thou to reduce the potential for loaded bullet runout and that works very well.



hmmmmmmmmm

very strange statement....

every benchrest shooter i know taylors the neck tension to get the uniform characteristiics he wants from his rifle/his load. some use very little neck tension some use a lot....but i have never heard anyone say that only 1 thou is the golden inflexible rule in all reloading world wide. some guys jam thier bullets 10 thou into the lands.....cannot do that with 1 thou neck tension.

for some of my bolt guns i am at one thou...but for my semi autos..i generally use 3 thou...why because that is what is REQUIRED to keep the bullet from moving in the loading cycle....tested, measured and proven to me , by me.
so what i am saying , your statement is bs.

mike in co

[1hole]

"but i have never heard anyone say that only 1 thou is the golden inflexible rule in all reloading world wide."

Now you have.


"some guys jam thier bullets 10 thou into the lands.....cannot do that with 1 thou neck tension."

Yes, you can.

What you are missing is that what you're calling "tension" isn't, it's only what mechanists call an "interference fit." Any neck stretching around the bullet more than about 1 thou simply exceeds the plastic limits of the brass. We end up with basically the same "tension" from spring back, and that's about a thou, no matter how small the original neck ID is.

Actual bullet grip is determined by how hard the brass is and how thick the necks are.

[mike in co]

"but i have never heard anyone say that only 1 thou is the golden inflexible rule in all reloading world wide."

Now you have.


"some guys jam thier bullets 10 thou into the lands.....cannot do that with 1 thou neck tension."

Yes, you can.

What you are missing is that what you're calling "tension" isn't, it's only what mechanists call an "interference fit." Any neck stretching around the bullet more than about 1 thou simply exceeds the plastic limits of the brass. We end up with basically the same "tension" from spring back, and that's about a thou, no matter how small the original neck ID is.

Actual bullet grip is determined by how hard the brass is and how thick the necks are.

your claim is that no matter the thickness, nor hardness of the neck, one cannot exceed the tension of .001.......
pull me up a chart with the plastic deformation limits of cartridge brass in .01 to about .015 thickness...in the annealed condition....say 25 degrees c.
sorry but you are full of it...

if i use 2 thou my bullets move in my semi rifles...at 3 no movement.

....brass (cartidge brass) flexes.....there is tension.......any fool with an impact puller can tell the difference in neck tension.


your claim is not supported by years of actuall loading by thousands of people....


belly up with some hard facts..

mike in co

[1hole]

Issue 1:

Me: "Actual bullet grip is determined by how hard the brass is and how thick the necks are."

Mike: "your claim is that no matter the thickness, nor hardness of the neck, one cannot exceed the tension of .001......."

I'm confused. Immediately after I say grip is determined by brass thickness and hardness, you say I claim the reverse. Is there a comprehension problem?

--------------------------

Issue 2:

Mike: "belly up with some hard facts.."

Measure the neck of a loaded round. Pull the bullet, mike it again at the SAME place. If your skills with a mike are good enough you will find about 1 - 1.25 thou of difference; that should tell you something even without a chart.

Years and thousands don't much matter if you don't know and are not learning.

[mike in co]

Issue 1:

Me: "Actual bullet grip is determined by how hard the brass is and how thick the necks are."

Mike: "your claim is that no matter the thickness, nor hardness of the neck, one cannot exceed the tension of .001......."

I'm confused. Immediately after I say grip is determined by brass thickness and hardness, you say I claim the reverse. Is there a comprehension problem?

--------------------------

Issue 2:

Mike: "belly up with some hard facts.."

Measure the neck of a loaded round. Pull the bullet, mike it again at the SAME place. If your skills with a mike are good enough you will find about 1 - 1.25 thou of difference; that should tell you something even without a chart.

Years and thousands don't much matter if you don't know and are not learning.

the after the fact condition of the case neck is not the discussion...the discussion is how much neck tension can be applied by additional neck dia reduction ( by using a smaller neck bushing).......

facts are facts......your "information" of after the fact condition is NOT PROOF of your opinion.

again provide some facts......
no facts= an opinion
fact : in my ar when case necks are sized minus .002, loaded rounds show BULLET MOVEMENT when cycled from the mag to the chamber.
fact: in my ar when case necks are sized minus .003, loaded rounds show NO BULLET MOVEMENT when cycled from the mag to the chamber.
fact: in my 6ppc when case necks are sized minus .002 , a loaded round will show bullet movement if seated to plus .005(into the lands).
fact: in my 6ppc when case necks are sized minus .003, a loaded round will show NO bullet movement if seated to plus .005(into the lands).

the abreviation for micromenter is "mic"...if you knew anything about engineering( which i doubt) you would know that...


as in my name is mike...not mic

mike in co

[mike in co]

Issue 1:

Me: "Actual bullet grip is determined by how hard the brass is and how thick the necks are."

Mike: "your claim is that no matter the thickness, nor hardness of the neck, one cannot exceed the tension of .001......."

I'm confused. Immediately after I say grip is determined by brass thickness and hardness, you say I claim the reverse. Is there a comprehension problem?



yes, you are confused...about neck tension


notice in your statement ( and in mine about yours)there is no reference to bullet dia/case neck inside dia....
in case you forgot already, that is what we are discussing.

the variable in a pc of brass is the sized neck dia........change the od of the neck, change the tension........plain and simple....

so once again...provide some facts about your opinion.......

your neck dia,post bullet pulling, measurement is after that fact and has little to nothing to do with the actual neck tension that was on the bullet originally.

facts...facts...facts....hard data...engineering study.....


mike in co

[I B Jeepin]

When my expander rod or ball or whatever the die mfg uses is set up to size the interior dia. of the cartridge .001 smaller that the boolit (for copper jacket or cast) I am generally good to go. If the brass comes out larger, I run it through the sizing die minus the decap rod. then adjust the rod again. On new decap dies I have found it necessary to sand down the expander device with 1000 grit wet dry or crocus cloth. Just enough to smooth it out and remove any machining marks.

I am not sold on the Lee collet die set up. Most of my guns are gas operated so I dont have much of a chance to play around with them. However, just for kicks I used the collet die on .308 rounds for my M1A and they worked fine. I would not try them the second time on the same brass for that rifle. They will get full length sized. Its an interesting concept but I would like the time to test it more.

[1hole]

"How much should a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die actually size?"

Mike, your snide "lesson" on word meanings is off. "Mic" is a noun, being a commonly used shortened version of micrometer, while "mike" in referece to a mic is the commonly used adverb carrying the active sense of using it. Machinests know that.

But, speaking of the precise meanings of words, I have absolutely no idea what a "...pc of brass..." is. Nor do I have a clue how anyone can "...taylor..." necks.

You have made this "tension" issue into a meaningless pissing contest between us to the point of being silly. I answered Rock's question (as he's quoted above) and it was to him I first posted in #4, not you. Other than defending your ego over a difference of opinion I see no reason for your petty quibbling and I've gotten all the laffs outta it I'm interested in.

[mike in co]

"How much should a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die actually size?"

Mike, your snide "lesson" on word meanings is off. "Mic" is a noun, being a commonly used shortened version of micrometer, while "mike" in referece to a mic is the commonly used adverb carrying the active sense of using it. Machinests know that.

But, speaking of the precise meanings of words, I have absolutely no idea what a "...pc of brass..." is. Nor do I have a clue how anyone can "...taylor..." necks.

You have made this "tension" issue into a meaningless pissing contest between us to the point of being silly. I answered Rock's question (as he's quoted above) and it was to him I first posted in #4, not you. Other than defending your ego over a difference of opinion I see no reason for your petty quibbling and I've gotten all the laffs outta it I'm interested in.

since you have made up most of what you have posted....
i see you are continuing....
the only definition of the word "mike" in the dictionary is short for microphone......

i have been machining since the 60's...........
mic is the short for micometer, mic'ing a part is measuring it with a mic......
there is and has never been a mike in machine work....

if you truely believe in your opinion, may i suggest you go post it and your supporting data..on the benchrest sites...benchrest central and 6mm.......

and again....when will you produce some facts.....

mike in co

[dromia]

All right gentlemen enough is enough.

This has gone as far as it needs to, you will just have to beg to differ on the semantics. This discussion is getting too personal and not adding to the thread in any way.

Stop now and no last words, this is it!

[rcbarry]

Well people, there is a lot of truth when they say that opinions are just like armpits, everybody has them. I still use the full length resizer die with the candle-smoked brass. It has worked for me for years on my 1903A3 and my sporting rifle....... very true that I sort my brass acording to what rifle it was fired in and I use ALL military brass.:bigsmyl2:

[mike in co]

Well people, there is a lot of truth when they say that opinions are just like armpits, everybody has them. I still use the full length resizer die with the candle-smoked brass. It has worked for me for years on my 1903A3 and my sporting rifle....... very true that I sort my brass acording to what rifle it was fired in and I use ALL military brass.:bigsmyl2:

and what you posted has nothing to do with the original question......

[zomby woof]

It is fairly common for a Lee Collet die to not size the neck down enough to hold a bullet. In this case, and I think it's included in the Lee instructions, you can chuck the center decap rod in a drill and polish it down a thousandth or two and get the bullet fit/drag you desire. It is not the collet itself, but the decap rod that determines the amount of sizing.

I had the same problem with a 6.5X55 neck sizer. The bullet was falling right through. The sizer shaft was too big. The instructions tell you to take a few thou off. I did this and everything is fine.