what to expect from a Garand

[RU shooter]

I mean accuracy wise if the rifle has a new or exc. condition barrel and everything else was in proper order, not talking setting it up to national match spec's. but just a good solid shooter. I have never owned or fired one but the one's I have seen being shot in competition beside me have not really impressed me accuracy wise ,seems 4 moa is about average with ball and maybe 3 with reloads. Maybe the shooters but some I know can shoot better with other rifles But still not real impressive..... Yes I know they are Battle rifles but is 3-4 moa the best it gets?




Tim

[Char-Gar]

Others will come along with far greater Garand experience that I, but the experience with my lone Garand, which is in primo condition, is about like your post, maybe a tad better.

If accuracy were the only concern, a good 03/03A3 will shoot rings around an issue Garand.

[Uncle Grinch]

Most of my groups run 3 - 4 inches (or worse!), but I have shot some 2 inch with surplus HXP. My Garand seems to like it better than LC.

[JSnover]

I believe 3 moa has been the standard for a long time (back to the Springfield, at least) but it certainly is possible to improve on that.

[garandsrus]

A 2 minute "as issued" Garand is pretty rare when you are talking 10 shot groups. As you said, 3 to 4 minutes is about right. There are a lot of moving parts that affect accuracy!

The most important thing is that the rifle not have it's groups wander as it gets warmed up. This can drive you nuts.

John

[NuJudge]

Assuming decent ammo, a good barrel, tight fitting stock, adequate clamping force when closing the trigger guard, and a gas cylinder tight on the barrel splines, I believe 3 MOA would be quite good.

[higgins]

you might get 2-3 moa with good commercial bullets; 3-4 moa with military bullets or military ball ammo is about right unless you find a lot of ammo that it particularly likes. I've seen super slow motion film of an M1 cycling. It's surprising they shoot as well as they do when you see how much the parts flex and jump around, even moreso when you add the variables of stock bedding, handguard, and the gas system hanging off the end of the barrel.

[roverboy]

I've not shot mine all that much, but thats the kind of accuracy I've heard they usually shoot. Mine won't do that good, because the barrel is ROUGH. I'm trying to get another barrel from a friend. But one thing's for certain they are accurate enough for combat. Most all the WWII veterans I've talked to say they were good rifles.

[Ron B.]

The M1 Garand; every freedom loving boy should own at least a dozen.

Mine is a $500 trade. And, I can tell you this I would not like to be the one being shot at hiding 200 yards away.

Just love them,
Ron

[BoolitBill]

What can you expect from an M-1 Garand?--------M-1 thumb!

Seriously, I get 3 to 4 moa with my reloads on a stock M-1.

[Freightman]

Fun-Fun_Fun!!!!

[garandsrus]

I almost forgot, after 8 shots you get a very satisfying Pingggggggg....

John

[Multigunner]

Well I have only fired three different fully correct unaltered Garands in very good condition and each of those when properly bedded was capable of 2MOA with fresh high quality 168 Grain AP ammo. Thats with the issue sights.
My own Garand was a pretty much shot out beater till I had it rebarreled using a slightly used USMC Matchgrade barrel so it wouldn't be typical either before or after so I don't count it.

The other three rifles belonged to a friend who had quite a bit of experiance in restoring Garands. I don't think any of the three were galss bedded, all had very good wood, actions without noticable wear, and very good barrels but were hardly in new condition.
I don't know where he got the ammo but the bullets had two crimping grooves, one for loading them in the .30-06 case and the other for loading in the 7.62 NATO. I think these may have been Israeli, but he mentioned these as being French manufactured Bullets used with remaining Browning MGs and newer NATO chambered MGs in the early 60's. The recoverd cores matched photos of US 168 gr AP cores. We also fired some US 168 gr AP, I still have a pulled bullet from these. It has the brass plug in the base.

From what I've read on aerial gun ammo the specifications for primer consistecy makes this the most accurate of Military rifle caliber ammunition other than limited edition match grade ammo. The synchronized guns still in use on some aircraft required that there be no chance of a hangfire hitting the propellor.

The Farrows Manual of Military Training gives two MOA as the acceptable standard when sighting in a rebarreled Springfield 1903 rifle.
Those instructions were written during the period when barreled receivers were delivered and all parts changed over rather than older receivers rebarreled.

The Garand was not considered to be as accurate as the Springfield, but individual Garands could be very accurate indeed and the development of proper bedding techniques greatly improved match grade accuracy.

The necessity of removing the barreled action from the stock when cleaning could result in loosening up of the bedding and degradation of accuracy, especially if the wood became oil soaked or wet.

If I bought a decent looking Garand and got no better than 3-4 MOA when using fresh ammo I'd be very disappointed. I'd also figure its performance could be improved greatly with very little work.

[flounderman]

I belonged to a dcm club, years ago. there was a guy had a garand that would shoot inch 5 shot groups. he had me restock it, saying he wanted it to shoot inch groups when he got it back. I did some studying on how a garand should be bedded and the gun shot the same inch groups when I was done with it. I don't remember the ammunition. military ball probably. if you pull the bullet slightly and reseat it, it will cut the group size. I could have used reseated military or reloaded, but probably with ball bullets, but that particular garand was a minute of angle garand. my eyes were a lot better in those days, too.

[Jailer]

I know it's not what the OP asked, but I had the pleasure of shooting a custom built, Krieger barreled Garand a short while ago. The thing was a phenomenal shooter. I got to run 2 clips of surplus ball ammo through it at 500 meters. I hit 10 out of 16 shots on a NRA steel ram and I'm really not that great of a shot and my eye sight is not what it used to be. I could barely see the ram. The other 3 guys shooting (a bit younger than me and better shots) hit all 16 shots. I'm sure it ruined my experience as far as what a Garand is capable of, but that gun was absolutely outstanding. What surprised me the most is how soft shooting it was. Very little recoil at all.

I want one.

[sqlbullet]

I have two Garands. Both are Winchesters and both were made in '43. Both have proof marks from Greece, and both came from the CMP end of last year. Both were graded 'field grade' due largely to ugly wood and missing finish on the gas cylinder.

One has a new/like new barrel, they other is probably about a 2 for muzzle erosion. The like new barrel also wears a new Greek stock that was very ugly, but tight. That gun will shoot 2 MOA. The worn barrel is good for 3-4 MOA.

If you want bragging rights shooting for score from the bench against come what may, the M1 Garand is NOT the rifle for you. If you are shooting at milk jugs for fun, the M1 is very, very hard to beat for grins per clip.

Oh, and it always turns heads and causes whispers at the range. Especially if you have two of them out.

[Multigunner]

flounderman

I belonged to a dcm club, years ago. there was a guy had a garand that would shoot inch 5 shot groups. he had me restock it, saying he wanted it to shoot inch groups when he got it back. I did some studying on how a garand should be bedded and the gun shot the same inch groups when I was done with it. I don't remember the ammunition. military ball probably. if you pull the bullet slightly and reseat it, it will cut the group size. I could have used reseated military or reloaded, but probably with ball bullets, but that particular garand was a minute of angle garand. my eyes were a lot better in those days, too.


I'd run across the recommendation to reseat the bullets of Military Ball before. The subject in that discssion was some not so old 7.62 NATO ammo. That ammo was noted for accuracy when fresh but shot all over the place when it aged.
The Military match shooters found its waterproofing sealant would set up hard after a few years in storage. Rather than pulling and reseating they simply seated it a few thousandths deeper which broke the grip of the sealant and accuracy was restored.
I figure that a slam loader would apply some force to the bullet naturally and if the force loosened the grip of the sealant more on one cartridge than on another the pull strength would vary wildly.

I never crimp the bullets in my loads for bolt action rifles and resize only two thirds of the neck. I'd learned this trick long ago. The less the average pull strength the less the effect of variations in pull strength.
Of course you can only go so far with that. Slam loaders need more grip on the bullet than a bolt action would.

Jailer

What surprised me the most is how soft shooting it was. Very little recoil at all.
Thats one of the Garand's best features, but while you don't notice much recoil while shooting if you get carried away and fire off a couple of bandoleers of AP while wearing only a T Shirt you'll dang sure start feeling it a few hours later and all the next day.

[AZ-Stew]

My H&R would shoot an inch at a hundred when I got it, using my handloads. The loads I made using the Sierra 168 Matchking and 4895 shot 3-4 inches (some match load, huh?), but my loads using H-335 and the Sierra Gameking 150 SPBT shot very well. I'll never know how anyone can shoot decent groups by trying to center the front sight in that humongous peep sight opening. I adjusted my sights so the front sight wings barely touched the top of the rear sight ring opening and using a 6 o'clock hold with that sight picture gave me very consistent sighting. Between the handload and the sighting technique, the rifle shot very well. I haven't shot it in years, though. I got it from DCM in the late 70s or early 80s. Paid $118 + $8 postage. Great bargain!

Regards,

Stew

[NickSS]

I have been shooting M1s for at least 40 years and have owned at least 20 of them over that time ( I currently only have five left). The average M1 that you buy from the CMP (service grade) will shoot in the 2 to 3 inch range with good clean ball ammo. If you Taylor a load for it you can cut as much as an inch off of that. My current blasting M1 is a Greek return Field Grade that I bought some four years ago. It has a warn barrel but will still hold a 3 inch group with my hand loads. Now if you want to spend some money and have one accurasized by a good gas gun gunsmith (probably not Joe Blow down the street) you can end up with a gun that will shoot good match ammo in the sub MOA area. I had one built like that by a noted smith in 1987 it cost me almost $600 to have it done. What was done was rebarrel with a Kriegger barrel in 308 Win, Check and repair parts as necessary, Tighten up the gas syestem and affix the forward stock to the roward band permanently and glass bed the action. Oh I also had national match sights installed. When I got it back it shot sub MOA out to 600 yards from a bench rest. However, it did not shoot as well as my Springfield Armory super match M1A I had at the time as that would shoot 1/2 moa as it came from the factory.

[oldhickory]

Mine is a Springfield, mid 1943 with the original barrel and nothing special done to it to enhance accuracy. I tend to shoot 8 shot groups, (7 that I measure) and discount the first as a given "flyer" due to the first round being more or less manualy fed and the others fed via slam-bang action of the bolt. Some 7 shot groups measure under 2", add the first shot and expect 3-4". My M1 is the last rifle I would ever part with.

[jonk]

As issued, I'd agree, about 3MOA. If you go national match on it, with new barrel, op rod, etc., around 1MOA.

[RU shooter]

So it seem to get one to shoot even close to what my 03A3 will do easily is to buy a cmp rifle (500 bucks) and add a good barrel(350 bucks and up) and add smithing fees I'm up to a thousand :( Ouch.....! I think that settles my desire for a M1 Garand,Yes I would like to own one but the ho hum accuracy would make the novelty of it wear off within a short time.


Thanks for the opinions,Tim

[mouser868]

Mine is a commercial Garand and I get 3\4 to 1 1\2 inch groups with it at 100 yards using handloads.

[koehn,jim]

I have two of them one is a national match and one is just a great shooter. I find them to be a heck of alot of fun to shoot, as far as accuracy they are a battle rifle designed for about 3 inches at 100 yards both of mine will do 2 inches or less when I do my part. I have found that much of the fun is developing a good load. I have just started working on cast loads for the one and fully expect 2-3 inches at 100 yds. I personally feel that is quite sufficent for shooting sil. or targets. If you want extreme accuracy I have 22-250 or 25-06 that do a lot better but they are not as much fun.

[Doug Bowser]

I have 2- Springfield Arsenal M1 Garand Rifles that will shoot 1-3/4" groups off the bags at 100 yards with my special lot of LC 66 M2 ammo. I picked both of the rifles out at Anniston and Camp Perry. The muzzle wear # is 1.5 on both rifles and the throat wear is 3 or less. The important thing is the service rifle bedding. Hold the rifle at the wrist and grab the gas cylinder. Pull the barrel forward and there should be no forward and backward movement of the barrel group in the stock. Also grasp the forearm of the stock and the lower hand guard. There should be a slight upward pressure on the barrel group. This action sets the barrel back to the same place in relation to the forearm between each shot.

Doug Bowser

[AaronJ]

my IH garand shooting 168 matchkings does about 1.5-2 inches at 100 yds from the bench.

[Uncle R.]

My CMP special with brand-new barrel does right around 2 MOA with HXP ball. That is very good ammo - and that's the most accurate of 3 Garands I've owned so far. Lake City ball is closer to 3 MOA in this rifle and I still consider that pretty dang good.

[crawfobj]

Not sure how to do the math to convert to MOA, but 6/8 rounds on target at a life size ram cutout at measured 500 yards was what the last one I shot did, and that was with surplus ammo and not much practice with it. Wish I could get back out to that place and make that target ring some more!

The landowner/rifle owner pitted me against his known quantity buddy to see who could shoot the M1 better - I beat him by 1 hit!

My other experience was at a charity shoot for wounded veterans. 24 rounds fired for smallest group. Mine was good for second and a steak dinner, beating out several active duty and vets, including the owner of the steakhouse!!! Darn good steak dinner and a bottle of wind with the Mrs., by the way.

This is making my trigger finger itch.

[home in oz]

I good cast boolit load for the Garand?

[sqlbullet]

BobS Load. (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=312730&postcount=15) This is the standard. I use a 200 gr lee bullet since I am too cheap to pay for a Lyman mold.

Variation:

I have also tested with 32 grains of Varget + .75 gr dacron, all other the same as BobS Load. Just as good or maybe a bit better accuracy from my guns. Function was 100%.

34 grains of Reloader 15 + .75 gr dacron was as good accuracy, but was not 100% on function.

And, in case you are worried about your op-rod, cast bullets produce different pressure curves than jacketed bullets. Your op-rod will not become a pretzel because you violated the heavy bullet/slow powder rules. Those rules apply to jacketed bullets.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I load mine with cast boolits and a dacron filler. They move at about 1750 FPS per my chrony and are a blast to shoot.

Low recoil, low muzzle blast, low noise and slings empties about 2 feet in front of the rifle and to the right. Cheap to shoot and accurate on steel gongs out to 300 yds.

I put a globe front sight on mine and using a good rest I can hit the steel plate 8 x out of 8 x at 300 yds. Plate is 18" from top to bottom and 12 inches wide.

It makes a very satisfying CLANG when hit and it is a highly amusing activity to boot.

Keeping the powder charge low keeps the rifle cooler and I can blast off 3 or 4 clips of ammo before I need to let it cool down.

Once going out to 440 yds I really had to crank in the elevation and the wind now was more effectual on the boolits and they wandered around more.

Kicking up the powder charge does not really improve the accuracy so I suppose I will try to PSB filler to see if that helps out things.

[shotman]

glad to see some REAL groups Have seen some posts at 1/2in at 100yds with open sights I AINT FROM MO but would have to be there. Ihave 2 both near mint ww II and they do good but not 1/2in found the 413 does the best with 5477 a good load and will leave brass about 3 ft
I got a scope mount for a Garand and going to try it,kind of pain to put on but will do on one and see

[txpete]

alot of it is the person shooting it.I see sometimes on forums where some one is claiming 1/2 or 1/4 " groups with a stock M1 @ 100 meters I just smile.my eyes are going south and bifocals and peep sights are not the best of friends.
I am very happy when I can make a mountain dew can do a dance on the back berm.
pete

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/1954M1002.jpg

[missionary5155]

Good morning
The only thing I really exspect from my Garands is that pleasant chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk,chunk, chunk, chunk,PING ! All the rest is pure delight.
Battle field accuracy... Hit the target in the chest and search for another target.

[oldhickory]

Good morning
The only thing I really exspect from my Garands is that pleasant chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk,chunk, chunk, chunk,PING ! All the rest is pure delight.
Battle field accuracy... Hit the target in the chest and search for another target.

That pretty well sums it up, Mike.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Out here in the Mojave Desert I have an out of town shooting site where the backstop is a mountain on BLM land. I am not concerned about richochets or whatnot since the only life forms ahead of the muzzle have four tiny feet or are at least 6 miles away. If I was shooting a 50 BMG I would have a concern but with my powder puff cast loads not so much.

However a six pack of water filled aluminum cans at 25 yds are a different and a very entertaining set of targets. The idea is to see how many clips of ammo it will take to move all those cans out to 100 yds. The problem is that some of them get so blown up and torn apart that after only a few shots they are shredded and offer only a flat target. I consider those targets DRT and move on to healthier targets.

If I leave out the water they manage to hang together a mite better and I hafta hit the dirt in front of the target to get them to dance. If I hit them directly the boolit makes a hole and tears through the metal without moving the can too much. I need to move them along.

Once they get out there beyond 60 yds or so it is a tough shot but I bring a lot of ammo and I usually win. Golf balls are also a very reactive and interesting target to shoot. If you hit one just right you will have a drive to make a golfing pro envious.

For these fun targets I set them up at about 20 yds on a plank suspended across between two rocks. We put felt tip markers on each ball and have at it. The standing record shot we have measured at well over 600 yds and most will go at least 200 feet if hit properly.

I was amazed to see how some of the balls, hit on an tangent take off and spin in all directions except straight ahead. Others chunked at the base go straight up and hardly move ahead at all. Going to a .223 at 3000 FPS we get an explosion sometimes. The golf ball just turns into shredded stuff and dissapears. All you find are tiny bits of white cover and pieces of rubber. The really old wound golf balls are more fun. They seldom explode but get shredded pretty good and leave trails of rubber bands all over the place.

Bowling Pins, inflated baloons, Necco Wafers, Clay Birds, Golf Balls and blocks of wood can all be fun to blast away at. We bring a big garbage can with us and we take away more trash than we make just to keep the place a little neater.

The best reactive target I ever saw was a five gallon metal can that was sealed down tight and shot at 300 yds by my buddy Blake. He used a custom 450 Dakota rifle and when he hit the target it jumped up about 40 feet in the air and was totally destroyed when the bullet hit the water inside and of course the water went in all directions at once and demolished the metal can. What made it more fun was the fact that he had colored the water bright red and you could not miss seeing the red mist floating in the breeze after the impact of the bullet.

[dpaqu]

I've been getting 3-4 moa @ 600 yards prone, military sling with good light and no wind. That with HXP. I'm going to try some 168gr A-maxes in the HXP cases soon. I'm not sure how anyone shoots 1moa with these with the original sights on them, must be better shoots than me.

This is how I think about it. Its more accurate than I am unless conditions are perfect and I'm slung in, zen like low heart-rate, and am shooting as best as I can. If I stand up, sit, breath hard, rapid fire ect. then just about any Garand is more accurate than me.