marlin micro groove

[AaronJ]

i have an old marlin 444S with a micro groove barrel that was my dads. i want to start casting lee 310 grain flat nose gas cheack boolits for this rifle. my question is will these boolits cause excessive leading in my micro groove barrel. i will most likely use strait lynotype and thompsons blue angel lube. thanks for the help.

[6pt-sika]

I have a 444S circa 1973 that I shoot the Lee 430-310GC in and it does not lead up ! I use water quenched wheelweights only ! Pushed with a fairly stiff charge of H322 !

I do however use Thompson's Blue Angel .

[6pt-sika]

Ideal situation would be a bullet that was sized at .432 or .431 . You may just get .431" drop from the mold before sizing with wheelweights and if you use Lino it will likely be less . Then Lino will not obturate as well as say wheelweights or 1/20 . WW's water quenched are more then hard enough for what you want !

[Snapping Twig]

Been doing a great deal of investigating MG vs. ballard rifling and here's what I've found.

Marlin and other lever guns run a fat bore. This is to say, what you may believe is a .429 barrel is more than likely a .431 or .432 in reality. Therefore, slugging the bore is important to find the correct size and then size bullets .001 over that.

If you do this, you will get accuracy and limited to no leading.

If you shoot a traditionally sized .429 bullet in a .431 bore, you will get leading and poor accuracy - MG or ballard, but it makes a bigger difference in MG.

I bought an 1894 44 MG without knowing this, but as I size my bullets only up to the lube grooves and leave the front driving band untouched, my 1894 is a laser at 100 yards. The bullet needs to fit the bore,.

[LGS]

For my Micro-Groove 444 I size at .432. I use a 285g as my rifle will not stablize heavy bullets well. I have heard this is common with the 1-38 twist of the micro-groove. With my rifle, the faster the better. I push the 285g at 2300 fps.

[AaronJ]

thanks for all the replies i think i will try the WQ WW first and see if they are hard enough. also guess i should slug my bore and see if i have to order another sizer.

[Newtire]

I am shooting most sized to .431 but the Lee 200 gr. RF at just under .431 as drops from the mould and lubed with either Lee alox or Felix lube, nothing leads at all. Only leading I ever got was with some .429 Oregon Trail boolits. Your shoulder's going to get sore shooting those big 300 grain Lee's so try the little 200 grain Lee round nose plain base with 12 grains Unique and you'll be glad you did.

Another great one is Lyman 429244 gas check and 25 grains of 2400 or 17 grains Blue Dot. .444 with micro-groove is one of the best cast boolit guns I have ever shot

[6pt-sika]

I have heard this is common with the 1-38 twist of the micro-groove. With my rifle, the faster the better. I push the 285g at 2300 fps.



What you may have heard isn't so !

I own no less then 23 Marlin 444's with slow twist Micro Groove rifling all 1/38 . And I shoot bullets up to 375 grains in them no problem !

As a matter of fact in early august of this year I killed a black bear with one of these rifles shooting one of the 375 grain gas check bullets I had molds cut for !

At the moment I have 3 rifles set up with 375 grainers , another set up with 350 grainers and several with bullets in the 325 to 340 grain range .

All I had to do to get them to stabalize was water quench my wheelweight alloy bullets when I cast and push them a bit hard with H322 or something similar .

[JIMinPHX]

I've always had good luck with micro-groove & cast. Just follow the same basics as you normally would & see what happens.

[jmh54738]

My 444 MG measured .425 x .429, just a scratch of rifling. I had Marlin rebarrel with Ballard, which came with a .4265 x .4318 dia. The Lee 300 grain was too small, so I turned up a steel mandrel which I placed in the mold which was then squeezed in the mill vise. When the gas checks were attached in the .432 size die, they were not tight and would spin on the bullet. Another mandrel was made to swage the gas check shank larger on the mold. When I first got the Ballard barrel, I pushed a lead ball through the bore. I could feel the roughness and tearing and could see the poor finish on the lead slug. I rolled ten bullets in "B" grade Clover compound and fired them with a light load of Unique and then drove another lead ball through the barrel. The improvement was apparent. I repeated this for a total of 30 abrasive coated rounds, pushing a ball through the barrel after every ten shots. I numbered the slugs 1-4 and the improvement could be seen on each one. The barrel is now smooth with no measurable increase in bore diameters, and shoots great. I did this in 2004.
John

[Tony65x55]

Aaron, like 6pt-sika, I have been casting for the .444 for many years. The Lee 310 bullet is a very good one and is devastating on game. The .444 microgroove barrels will shoot this bullet very well if you size it large enough. The correct size is almost always .432 but many folks have decent success with .431". I have never tried a bullet larger than 350 grains but you can stabilize that weight without problems as 6pt has already stated. Don't fall into the myth that you MUST have a very hard bullet to get good performance. Of my three .444's, two prefer air cooled wheel weight and one like water quenched. They're all individuals. Try both to see which your gun prefers. Sized at .432", I can drive ACWW Lee 310's to 2200 fps with zero leading issues and the impact from the Lee 310 is decisive, regardless of the alloy hardness.

[Char-Gar]

For many years Marlin MG barrels received bad press and even loading manuals which should have have known better cautioned cast bullet shooters to keep velocities below 1,600 fps. After decades of this, an urban myth/old wives tale formed around the subject. It became an accepted fact often repeated in print by so-called experts.

I think the members of this board pretty well dispelled that myth some years back. Lots of ground breaking and myth busting took place on this board in the early days. Alas, it appears those heady days are gone. Not much cutting edge stuff going on anymore.

When it comes to cast bullet shooting the fit of the bullet to the barrel throat, lands and grooves is the major factor in accuracy all other things being well done. The Marlin MG barrels tended to run several thousands larger in all of these dimensions except perhaps throat diameter. Cast bullet sized to fit traditional barrels did not do well in MG barrels. Once bullet were properly sized for MG barrels, everything changed and cast bullets could be pushed way past the supposed 1,600 fps ceiling with ease and fine accuracy.

The biggest MG barrel I own is on a 1960 336 Texan carbine in 30-30. The barrel measures a whoping .310 X .307. To get a decent fit on the nose I had to design a custom bullet with a tapered nose and had it cut by Mountain Molds. With this bullet the rifle shoots like a house-a-fire. Shoot a cast bullet of traditional size and a .300 nose and accuracy goes South real quick.

I have not read the old wives tale in print in several years and it has pretty well stoped poping up on this site as well. Good riddance!

[AaronJ]

just sluged it with some pure lead 440 round balls i had and it came out at .430 guess i need another sizer

[6pt-sika]

just sluged it with some pure lead 440 round balls i had and it came out at .430 guess i need another sizer

RCBS makes a standard sizing die that fits the RCBS and Lyman machines in .431" !

I used one of those for several years before I bought a custom made Buffalo Arms .432" and .433" sizing dies . If you want the Buffalo Arms die it's $45 plus shipping .

www.buffaloarms.com

[AaronJ]

just checked midway has rcbs and lyman both in .432

[izzyjoe]

i'll have to agree with charger too, it's just alot of myths. a good friend of mine and well know for bprc, and big bore long range shooter. i told him that i was shoot'n lead boolits in my marlin 30-30, and he said to keep them under 1600fs. i told him they were probally push' 2000fs, he laughed and said good luck with that. but thanks to the kind folks here, i learned somthing he did'nt know, that marlin's like most boolits oversized to the bore + 1 or 2 thou. so .431 to .432 should get you there, and strait ww will do the trick. save the lino for later. :Fire:

[JIMinPHX]

I've gotten 2300-2400fps out of a .30-30 micro groove with better accuracy than factory ammo. The 13bnh boolits mushroomed well too.

[AaronJ]

only thing is i have way more lino that ww. a friend from work had enough to put his 3/4 ton dodge on the overload springs from when his dad had a small printing operation. he asked me if i would pay $75 for all of it. i couldnt drag my wallet out fast enough

[rintinglen]

actually, tweren't just a myth--like a great many other myths there was a wee bit of truth to the complaints that micro groove barrels didn't shoot lead well--it's just that bull-headed as we are, a bunch of boolit casters kept after it until we learned how to make Marlins shoot better. My 1894 carbine wouldn't shoot store bought cast bullets fo beans. Now, I suspect the bullets were too small--but they shot just fine out of my ruger Blackhawk, and others had no problems with them in their Winchesters and Rossis. Others expeimented and measured and fineagled and finally figured out that bigger bullets were better.
Unfortunately for me, by the time that news got around, I'd already traded off my old 1894 44 Maggie and bought a Marlin Cowboy. Only lost about 300 dollars on the exchange--but it did shoot cast bullets better with that cut Ballard rifling. (and a .430 bore).

[AaronJ]

cast some 310 lee boolits last night from lino air cooled they dropped at 433. now im just waiting on the ups man to show up with my sizer and a new lee six banger mold. anyone have any good start data for the 444 marlin with 310 gc boolits?

[Newtire]

i'll have to agree with charger too, it's just alot of myths. a good friend of mine and well know for bprc, and big bore long range shooter. i told him that i was shoot'n lead boolits in my marlin 30-30, and he said to keep them under 1600fs. i told him they were probally push' 2000fs, he laughed and said good luck with that. but thanks to the kind folks here, i learned somthing he did'nt know, that marlin's like most boolits oversized to the bore + 1 or 2 thou. so .431 to .432 should get you there, and strait ww will do the trick. save the lino for later. :Fire:

One of the former range masters was walking by with his then new Win. 94 .375 Win. and saw me shooting my .444 Marlin. He started telling me how much better the Winchester was and how Marlins just won't shoot cast bullets.

I opened up my 50 round box lid and pointed to the cast loads there & my fine groups on my targets I had lying there but he just kept on yapping about how those Marlins just won't shoot & on & on & he never found out I guess!

Some folks are going to believe what they want and when they don't want to learn any more, they quit listening is all.

It is good to try loads in more than one rifle though if you have that option and you may find that they shoot better in one than the other for sure. That may be just a matter of sizing or seating depth or matching to the twist rate or maybe the barrel bedding or any number of things.

I've had loads that were so-so in one rifle give amazing groups in another. Last weekend, I went out to shoot up some of the excess "left over" loads from experiments in .30-06. The loads that I couldn't get much accuracy out of in my FN Mauser started shooting like crazy out of my newly restocked M70. It's what keeps this thing interesting.

Just my 2¢.

[1Shirt]

I am always amazed and amused by the wisdom that I hear at the range from people who shoot maybe a couple of hundred rounds a year from maybe one or two weapons. As for Marlins vs Win, well that is another story. Let a 357 Marlin (used at Cabellas) get away from me about 4 years ago, but was able to pick up a (used)94 Win before they went belly up. Like the Win, but would sure like to find a Marlin as well because of the cleaning aspect. Have an early 444 with MG, and as long as it is fed the right dia chunk of lead, it is as accurate as I am capable of holding it. By the by, it shoots a 3 roundball load load well also, with no leading as long as the balls are coated in lee mule snot. Fun shooting!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Newtire]

I am always amazed and amused by the wisdom that I hear at the range from people who shoot maybe a couple of hundred rounds a year from maybe one or two weapons. As for Marlins vs Win, well that is another story. Let a 357 Marlin (used at Cabellas) get away from me about 4 years ago, but was able to pick up a (used)94 Win before they went belly up. Like the Win, but would sure like to find a Marlin as well because of the cleaning aspect. Have an early 444 with MG, and as long as it is fed the right dia chunk of lead, it is as accurate as I am capable of holding it. By the by, it shoots a 3 roundball load load well also, with no leading as long as the balls are coated in lee mule snot. Fun shooting!
1Shirt!:coffee:

Hi 1shirt,

I read a great article in the 10th edition of handloader's digest by Robert Sherwood on the .444. I made up alot of the loads he suggested including one with the triple roundballs. Wow! That thing has some kick! I used 35 gr. of H-335, a sized down .451 ball,a .44 Ox-Yoke Wonder Wad, a ball, a wonder wad and a 3rd ball crimped in place. Quite a thumper. Used the Lee "mule snot" here too.

I tried one other load with a .410 sized load of shot in a shotcup and a round ball crimped in on top of that using 12 grains of Unique. I got STICKY EXTRACTION big time with that one. I loaded it up again with same load later on-thinking maybe I had screwed up but same thing. Something going on there but don't know what! I had no other troubles with any other of those loads and learned alot from it.

My son enjoyed learning how to shoot when he was 8 years old using 12 grains Unique under a 200 grain Lee RF. Boy, is that thing accurate at 50 yds. A real nice plinker. I got the same results with 14 grains BlueDot. I think I'll get that thing out and blow the spider webs out of the barrel this weekend. I think part of it's accuracy can be attributed to that thick barrel they put on those things. I never had any bad luck as long as the boolits were not much under .431" Some of those Lee's were .430 and they did just great, I'll have to check out the chrono readings now that I have one of those things.

[6pt-sika]

I've had loads that were so-so in one rifle give amazing groups in another.

Point in fact !

While not with cast bullets , I had a almost 50 rounds loaded with the Hornadt 129 SST for a Remington 700BDL Stainless Synthetic I had in 264 WIN MAG . When Ruger announced they would bring the #1B out in 264 WIN MAG this year I sold the Remington 700 and waited to get a #1B . When the rifle showed up I mounted a Leupold Vari XIII 4.5-14AO and took the rifle to the range with the bullets for the 700 .

This load in the 700 shot a consistent 3/4" for 3 shots at 100 yards . WHich I "was" quite satisfied with .

After sighting in the Ruger #1B to be 1 1/2" high at 100 yards , I sat down cleaned the barrel fired a fowler and let the gun cool down . Picked it up maybe 15 minutes later and shot 3 times . All three were in a nice round hole that measured .408" after deducting the size of the bullet !

Needless to say I've not tried ANYTHING else in that rifle .

[pls1911]

Micro groove shoots cast just fine, so long as the buoolet id hards and sized large.

I ony use a sized .312 to seat gas checks and lube the boolits to assure hardness is not compromized.
Shot a couple 100-ish pound piggies yesterday morning on a dead run quartering away. With a nose hold site picture, bullet entered right, just behind the shoulder exited left frint after taking out a couple of inches of left lower jawbone,,, the other in the same group was a heartshot through the bunghole , exited under the chin..
I didn't open him up, but where his spine was just behind the shoulder appearded to be substantially re-arranged. Both critters were cold cocked, ALL DRT, ALL full penetration.

Ranch Dog 165 boolit over 26 Grains Reloader 7 in a 1949 model Marlin RC.
I've never had more than one shot on anything I've shot.
One of these days, I'll get to recover a Boolit.

[JDUBS]

Figured I'd come and say hello! A couple friends of mine from another site recommended I checked this site out and boy am I glad I did, this place is great! I came because I'm getting into casting specifically for my Marlin 1894 in 44. Its one of the newer stock with the Ballard rifling. There is not a store around me that had any 1894's so I got mine on gun broker and its in transit to my FFL as I type this! I cant wait! This discussion has cleared up a lot of my concerns and questions and with this information I now too can work on my Marlin so I can show the anti-marlin guys a thing or two about my trusty lead slinger :) Ive shot for years but am only just now getting into the technical aspect of things so im going to have to look into barrel slugging and the processes of smoothing out the bores with abrasive rounds. Its nice to know I have another knowledgeable group of experienced shooters to sponge some input from! Nice to meet ya guys!! See ya around!

Jess

[Jon K]

Jess,

May not need top lap the barrel w/abrasives. My 1894 CB shot right out of the box.

As far as the discussion of MG vs Ballard rifling goes......they will all shoot, fed the right diet.

My choice is Ballard, but most of my Marlins are over 100 yrs old.:-)

Jon

[DukeInFlorida]

I'm wondering why there are some who feel that this boolit won't run in a Marlin 1894:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=95468

Seems to work fine for me, as cast in 100% lino.

My 1970's 1894 was one of the few with octagon barrel, but it has the microgrooves.

So, fill me in why I am wrong about this boolit working in my gun?

[WyrTwister]

i have an old marlin 444S with a micro groove barrel that was my dads. i want to start casting lee 310 grain flat nose gas cheack boolits for this rifle. my question is will these boolits cause excessive leading in my micro groove barrel. i will most likely use strait lynotype and thompsons blue angel lube. thanks for the help.


I do not own , nor do I load for a .444 .

But I do both for a M1895 Marlin in .45-70 . Marlins seem to like big bullets .

Try the biggest cast lead bullet that will chamber OK . It seems this is more important than a hard as nails bullet or a super duper lube .

If your mold does not drop big enough bullets , lap the mold cavities bigger . Get the Lee bullet sizing die and lap it bigger , if necessary . Or shoot the bullets as cast ( after you tumble lube them ) .

God bless
Wyr

[missionary5155]

Good morning
My 1975 made micro groove (45-70) will shoot cast nicely.
It is the throat diameter you want to fill. All my Marlins are FAT throated. So get a good slug from that throat area and fill it. Throats are always larger than the bore (in all the rifles I own) .
Ranch Dog figured this out and his molds are based on FAT throated Marlins.. That is why they work.

[Char-Gar]

Rin.. It guess it all depend on what the word "myth" means to you. The myth was that MG barrels would not shoot cast bullets with any accuracy over 1.6K fps. There were no conditions or exceptions to that dogma. It was just plain nonsense and that makes it a myth. There was no truth in that general statement.

All rifles require a proper fit of the bullet to the lands, grooves and barrel throat if top notch accuracy is to be achieved. The MG barrels follow that same rule. If the bullet is a bad fit in any of these areas, accuracy will be at best mediocre or worse.

The so called experts who propagated "the myth", just didn't know squat about the basic of cast bullet shooting in rifles. About the only thing they knew was "size the bullet .001 over groove diameter" and that is not always good counsel.

It was the planks on this board, that pitched their individual knowledge in a common pot and came up with theories that were tested on the range for validity over and over. There were plenty of arguments, some of which got very hot, but there was light as well as heat produced. That is when the myths were exploded.

Sad to say, most, but not all, of these planks have moved on when the board morphed into the frivolous gathering it is today. They were serious folks and there is not much serious going on these days here. Many got tired of of being told they were wrong by a bunch of newbie ninnies who only knew what they read in the pulp gun rags.

[Matt_G]

Sounds like a treasure trove of reading Chargar.
Are these old discussions still online?
I'm thinking you are talking about the old shooters.com days...
Or are they gone forever?

[rhead]

Sounds like a treasure trove of reading Chargar.
Are these old discussions still online?
I'm thinking you are talking about the old shooters.com days...
Or are they gone forever?



Hope this helps.


http://gunloads.com/misc/castarchive/ShootersCaps.zip


The link is in the stickies in the Shooters forum if this one does not work.