frustrated.. lead/lube problem

[Gun Nut]

I am a noobie here and I am having a problem with my 40 s&w sigma. I keep getting lead in the last 1'' 3/4 of my barrel! I use a lee 6 cavity mold 175 gr. tumble lube boolit and water drop, my alloy is straight ww and after quenching they are around 18-19 bnh. I use 7 grains of HS-6,and have used tumble lube before and after sizing but still lead. So last night finger lubed 50 more boolits after sizing with lymans super moly and I still have the same lead problem. I know it sounds like lube but after using the 2 diffrent lubes and the results were exacly the same has got me looking else where....?


Does any body know what I am doing wrong?[smilie=b:

Thanks for the help:D

[Doby45]

What does your barrel slug at? And what size are your boolits after you size them and then after you load em? You will need to load a dummy round and then pull the boolit to get the size and see if your loading process is swaging your boolit down or if you are starting out to small to begin with. I personally am not a fan of the TL design at all, ESPECIALLY in a 40cal. The 40cal is a high pressure round that needs to be loaded as close to perfect as possible, even more so with cast boolits and then even more so than that with the TL design. Slug your bore first and if you are sitting at .400 I can send you some Lee 175gr TC regular GG style already sized and lubed.

[Gun Nut]

thanks doby45, how do you slug a barrel? to get its slugged size? As for the bullets after the sizing come out to .401 , and have not pulled a dummy round yet...good ideas,thanks . I think the .40 was a poor choice for a beginer caster ,but if i master this the rest should be easier

[Springfield]

Try some that are not quenched. I have very good luck with softer bullets, even in my autos.

[454PB]

The symptoms sound like either undersized or inadequately lubed boolits. Are you using a Lee factory crimp seating die?

[Doby45]

You can slug the bore by taking a soft lead ball or fishing weight or something of the sort and pushing it through your barrel so that you can then measure what size bore you have. In the mean time, since you are sizing to 401 anyway, send me a PM with your address and I will ship you a hand full of the LEE TC 175gr sized to 401 and lubed with 50/50 mix of BAC and Carnuba Red. This is what I use in my 40 and I have zero leading.

EDIT: The ones I will send you are regular grease groove design.

[Gun Nut]

I am using a crimp die also and set it to were it barley does any thing. went to pull bullet in dummy and it will not come out!!! i hammerd as hard as i could ( impact style)!

[Doby45]

That is a problem if you can't get the boolit out with an impact hammer puller. I can pull a bullet with a military crimp on it with my hammer puller.

[Gun Nut]

thanx Doby 45, pm is sent, i slugged the barel and came up with .400 in grooves and .396 on lands or whatever you call the riflings.

[geargnasher]

Gun Nut, you're experiencing a very common problem with cast in the .40.

Barrel slugging is VERY important to any cast boolit workup, each gun can be unique as to it's groove size and you need (usually) to size a thousandth or so larger than maximum groove diameter so the boolit will fit tight in the barrel with NO GAS LEAKS. Those gas leaks from an undersized boolit are most likely what's causing your leading.

Now WHY the boolits are probably undersized is what you need to fix first. There are at least four problem areas to look at here:

1. Boolits too small to begin with. Slug your barrel, measure the slug, and size .001" over that. Make sure the boolit is actually .001: oversized when you load it.
2. Lee microgroove tumble-lube boolits have very weak bands that are easily squeezed down by the sized case when you seat them. Seat a boolit in an empty, sized case and then pull it back out and measure it. Is it still .001" over groove diameter? I'll bet not, even with the hard boolits you're using.
3. #2 brings me to reason #3, which is that no standard factory die set that I'm aware of has an adequate expander for cast boolits. when you bellmouth the case in the "expander" die, the "expander" plug needs to be very near the size of your boolit, usually about .001"under your boolit diameter. Since we shoot cast at .001-2" oversized, and the expander is set up for jacketed bullets of a smaller size, you can see how the factory expander will leave your cases too small. Bullet tension is critical in an automatic since it's the only thing that holds the bullet (not much place to crimp), your dies are probably meant to size the brass for good, solid case tension on jacketed, NOT cast. This often requires a custom expander.
4. Lee dies. Lee dies are great except for the expander being too small and too short for cast, but there is a demon in the FCD if it has a carbide post-sizing ring. That ring in the base of the FCD is designed as a go, no-go swager to make absolutely sure every round will chamber. Problem is, with cast, you're using slightly bigger boolits and they will get smushed when you run the cartridge through it in the crimp stage. Pull one and see. I suggest adjusting the seater die so it will crimp and seat at the same time. Yes, it will crimp. Don't actually roll the case mouth into the boolit, just remove the bell to make the case straight. Check a dummy round seated and crimped in your chamber to make sure it goes in without restriction. Again, pull a boolit and check it to make sure it's not undersized each time you make a crimp adjustment.

I have worked the .40 up and down, sideways and over with every powder I have, and I can tell you it's a real bear to get the bugs worked out, but it can be done. I consider it an advanced reloader/caster's round to mess with because you have to have everything just perfect to get good results. That means you'll have to play with boolit hardness, size, headstamp, powder type and charge, seating depth, amount of crimp, lube, boolit style, you name it. It is almost a trade off getting the best of accuracy AND reliable functioning.

Use slow powders, HS6 is absolutely perfect in my book, work up from seven grains when you get your sizing and dies worked out so it doesn't lead. I've gone up more than that, but be careful and drop back if you make a seating depth adjustment. .010" seating depth change is a LOT of pressure difference with this cartridge.

This will be a long ride, so be patient. We can help you get through it.

Gear

PS Listen to Doby, he's been down this road too. The boolits and lube he's offering you to try are something I'd definetely take him up on, I'd quit with the TL design altogether with the .40if I were you, BTDT and never got them to work.

[geargnasher]

I am using a crimp die also and set it to were it barley does any thing. went to pull bullet in dummy and it will not come out!!! i hammerd as hard as i could ( impact style)!

EXPANDER IS TOO SMALL, BRASS TOO TIGHT! Need to get a larger and longer expander.

Gear

[Gun Nut]

Thank you geargnasher

[Gun Nut]

mysized boolit comes out to exactly .001 over slug size

[geargnasher]

You asked what you were doing wrong in the first place, but it really isn't what you're doing wrong, it's the tools you're using and that's aggravated by the weak TL boolit drive bands and necessarily oversized boolits. Kind of like trying to use 1/4" drive to remove wheel nuts, fine tool, but not the right one for the job.

Changing mould designs like going to the Lee 175 TC with a REAL grease groove, two, wide and strong driving bands, better lube, and keeping your boolits hard (this is a rare case IMO of needing harder boolits, but I've found it true for the .40) will help keep them from being damaged by your tools before they get a chance to enter the bore. Remember, FIT FIT FIT. Boolit fit must be correct upon exiting the case or you're likely to have leading.

Gear

[geargnasher]

mysized boolit comes out to exactly .001 over slug size

Ok, good. Now size and deprime a case, expand it, seat/crimp a lubed boolit, pull the boolit (use your press with the die out, grip the nose with side-cutting pliers above the die plate, and lower the ram to yank the boolit out. This will destroy the nose, but preserve your driving bands for measuring. Measure the base band. I have a shiny dollar that says your base band will be at least .001" UNDER what it was when it was seated. Let us know.

Gear

[Gun Nut]

ok just dremeled one out of case and it reads .401(and I made sure that i did not chage boolit size while cutting

[Gun Nut]

make that .4005"

[cbrick]

my alloy is straight ww and after quenching they are around 18-19 bnh. Thanks for the help:D

Simple question, why are you quenching?

18-19 BHN pistol boolits? Why?

Too hard can and does cause it's own problems.

Use the info you have already been given here about slugging and sizing and then shoot your WW without quenching.

I'm sure you have heard the term "Hard Cast", forget it, it's an evil term and is the cause of more leading and accuracy problems than anything except improper bullet fit.

Rick

[Gun Nut]

thank you Rick,i will make a batch of air cooled and try them tomorrow,cause i got to go to work

[geargnasher]

Rick, for once I have to disagree with you. That is almost always the advice I follow, ACWW for just about everything. However, If you can make ACWW micro-groove boolits shoot with out leading in a .40 S&W when loaded with conventional dies and seven grains of HS6 lubed with tumble lube, I want you to send me some loaded ammo. I'll give you $1 a round and a huge public apology. This is the ONLY straight-walled handgun that has forced me to water-quench.

It IS possible to use softer boolits, they will only work in my gun with a .4005" expander the exact length of the seating depth and fired with milder loads of faster powder like Universal. Great for plinking when loaded to just barely cycle the slide (still plenty of suds, though). I wasn't making the recommendation for staying with harder boolits to prevent leading directly, you and I both know the fallacy of that, but I was hoping the harder boolits would help him by resisting being swaged down undersized when seating. I won't argue that the softer boolits will swell up and seal the bore even if they are undersized upon firing, they may or may not in this case and since he's already having leading in the start of the barrel I don't think softer boolits will fix that.

Gear

[geargnasher]

ok just dremeled one out of case and it reads .401(and I made sure that i did not chage boolit size while cutting

Not an effective test. The boolit will lose still more size as it is pulled out rather than cutting the case open. Harder boolits resist being downsized by too-tight brass somewhat. Try making a few air cooled boolits and do that again, you'll see the difference.

[Doby45]

The air cooled batch of TL boolits will not help you any. If anything it will make your driving bands softer and more susceptible to being crushed. I will get the regular GG boolits out in the mail to you tomorrow. The advantage to the regular GG boolits is the driving bands are so much wider they tend not be crushed down as much as the TL variety. I load both the 175gr TC and the 155gr HP from MiHec and get zero leading. Both boolits are regular grease groove, both are using the standard Lee Powder Thru belling die, even though I WANT the snazzy plug that nasher uses and then I seat and crimp in separate steps. I knocked the carbide sizing ring out of my 40 FCD and use it as my taper crimp die. I water quench all my 40cal rounds and have zero leading, except when I was working up a Tightgroup load and I pushed it a bit too far. :D

[Gun Nut]

The lead is in the
End of my barrel

[Cherokee]

gear - "I keep getting lead in the last 1'' 3/4 of my barrel!" is what the OP says, not the start of the barrel. I would agree though that WW WQ bullets of 401 or 402 might do the trick for him. Is he getting a lube star on his barrel, or does that apply to Lee's snot (I never used it). I use the same bullet with conventional grease grooves cast from WW+2% tin & air cooled in my 10MM without leading (Carnauaba red lube).

[Doby45]

If it is the LAST 1" of your barrel that is the lube breaking down.

[cbrick]

I won't argue that the softer boolits will swell up and seal the bore even if they are undersized upon firing, they may or may not in this case and since he's already having leading in the start of the barrel I don't think softer boolits will fix that. Gear


I keep getting lead in the last 1'' 3/4 of my barrel! [smilie=b: Thanks for the help :D

I admit that I don't load the 40 but I still believe ACWW will/could/might help. If nothing else it is well worth a try. According to Hodgdon data his load should be well under 1,000 fps and under 28,000 PSI.

18-19 BHN?

Rick

[Gun Nut]

Yes ,the lead is at the end of the barrel.

[noylj]

Lead in the last half of a barrel indicates that you have run out of lube. Your lube is either not being "pumped" into the bullet-barrel interface (too hard of lube for pressures and temperatures) or you need to add more lubricant. Here is a little treatise to diagnose leading problems (I think this is from Lee):

A clue to what is causing the leading is where the leading first begins to appear.
If it appears near the chamber, chances are that bullet diameter or hardness are the cause. A diameter too small or an alloy too hard will allow high-pressure gas to leak past the bullet, which erodes the bullet and leaves leading near the chamber.
If the leading first appears on the leading edge of the rifling (if you imagine the bullet being pushed through the barrel, you will note that one edge of the rifling does most of the work of imparting a spin to the bullet. This is the edge you see when you look through the barrel from the breech end) the bullet might be too soft or the velocity too high.
If the leading appears in the second half of the barrel, the bullet is running out of lube. You should see a star shaped pattern of lube accumulate on the muzzle. This is an indication that there is a sufficient excess of lube.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

this thread is packed with great info.
I bet the lurkers thank you...I know I do.
Jon

[Gun Nut]

There is no more lube room on my 175 tumble lube boolit

[Gun Nut]

That's what cast boolits is about.
I will try doby's cronicals and if that works then I will call lee

[Gun Nut]

By the way no lube star

[geargnasher]

SORRY! Guilty as charged of misreading that! What a bunch of guys, never let a fella get away with anything! That's another thing that's great about this place, you screw up and there's a posse WHAM right there to set you straight. Thanks for that.

Sooooo, Rick, the Lee 175 TL boolit won't handle 2800 psi at 11-12 bhn. I never even look at Richard Lee's charts, I just go on what exactly my guns and recovered boolits tell me. I've recovered some and wish I still had them to show you how badly they gas cut. I'm talking it looked like you blazed down the trailing edge of the land engrave with a plasma cutter (well, actually, that IS kinda what happened). I believe from the looks of the boolits that they were skidding the rifling far enough to open up trailing edge leaks. Tried multiple powders, even Blue Dot and Federal primers trying to get the soft launch, but still leading if I pushed the load up to "medium well". Switched to the same boolit design but with a real lube groove, now I'm pushing it to 1180 fps avg with HS6 and BD both, zero problems except for a bit of lube fouling in the chamber with the BD.

Gun Nut, allow me to correct the advice I gave you about leading at the beginning of the barrel. If you're getting leading near the end, as has been said, the tumble lube is giving up the ghost after a couple of inches. This is very typical of the .40, and I'll explain some things that will help you put it in perspective.

What so many people overlook with the .40 S&W is that it was intended to bring the power of a .45 ACP to a 9mm frame size with almost 9mm magazine capacity. To equal the ballistics of a .45 ACP in sheer energy was tough. Making a boolit with 25% less mass pack the same punch with about a 10% smaller surface area meant creating very high pressures. At full load levels (NOT "Glunk" .40 power levels) this cartridge is getting up there between the .45 ACP and the pressures of the .357 and .44 Magnum, and you know what happens to full-house, PB boolits with tumble lube and soft alloy in those Magnums. Might as well shoot Play-Doh instead of lead. You use a gas check normally to control accuracy and leading at higher pressures, and most certainly use a really good, conventional lube and sometimes even a harder alloy. Now why do we load ACWW, TL boolits coated with Alox, smash them into a super tight case and wonder why we are purchasing stock in the parent company of Chore Boy? It's because we were loading it like the ol' .45 ACP that was lobbing huge chunks of lead downrange at a leisurely TWO-THIRDS the pressure of the .40, and we were expecting the .40 to stand up to the same loading philosophy. Well, WRONG. I had that misunderstanding at first and failed miserably like so many others until I took a step back and reevaluated what it was I was asking of my boolits. That cute little .40 cartridge looks like a baby .45, but that's where the similarity ends.

Now, if you're going to load TL boolits and soft alloy, follow the philosophy of the .45 ACP: Keep pressures around 14-16,000 CUP instead of 24,000 CUP, use ACWW plus a pinch of tin, tumble lube, and use Unique, Universal, 231, ad nauseum and plink away. Nobody made any rules that said you have to handload to the absolute max you can safely run, but the autos are designed for a certain ideal functioning range and you will have the best luck staying within that.

Either way correct loading practices must be used, and the tools will likely have to be modified to work correctly with cast boolits.

Gear

[454PB]

You will never get a lube star with Lee liquid alox. You could with the combination of LLA AND conventional lube.

[Doby45]

Gun Nut I will get the TCs out in the mail to you tomorrow. The MiHec HPs would have to wait. I thought I had some cast up but I looked and evidently loaded the last of them. I plan to cast some more on Sunday and if you would like some I can wait and send both the TCs and the HPs out to you on Monday...

[noylj]

1) Try using as-cast bullets. No sizing. You need 0.402-0.403 bullets.
2) Be sure the TL grooves are completly full of Alox (or 50% Alox and 50% Johnson Paste Wax). May want to let some LLA sit out for an hour or so to thicken up. Place your bullets in a shallow pan that will hold all the bullets 1 layer deep and still have about 20% free space. Dribble the Thicker LLA on and shuffle the bullets around until they are all wet and shiny. Dump them out on wax paper or Al foil and let dry for at least 12 hours. Are the lube grooves yellow/brown? Good. That would normally be too much lube, but you aren't getting enough, so you want visible proof that you are over-lubed.
Personally, I prefer bullets with the regular lube groove and tumble lube them in LLA. Haven't tried the TL bullets as I haven't bought a new mold in several years (decade or two?)
3) I would try a faster powder such as 231, WST, N320, 700X, or even TightGroup. So far in my experience, I get the best accuracy with AA5 and LLA-coated bullets (and HS6 has not performed well for me). I have very little leading after several hundred rounds and I am shooting 0.403" bullets from WW and air-cooled.
YMMV because that is how the Pb Gods have made things.

[geargnasher]

Noylj, I've checked the chambers of three different brands of .40s and none of them will chamber a .403 in a Speer case. Not conclusive, but indicative I think.

If you haven't tried the TL boolits at all, much less in the .40, I wish you'd read my post #33 and see that conventional wisdom doesn't always work like you think it would with the .40, although your idea of over-lubing might just squeak by, especially if he softens the alloy, gets a bigger expander made, and doesn't push them over 900 fps.

How fast are you pushing your LLA boolits with those faster-burning powders? I'll bet the HS6 would work great for you with high-power stuff if you try what I laid out in my previous posts, but only if you want to load this cartridge near or to its full potential.

Gear

[Gun Nut]

ok my mold drops @ .404" so i have to size and i get as much lube as possible on boolits before and after sizing.
By the way Gear, i pulled 2 dummy boolits the RIGHT way and got .400" and thats what my barel slugs at.

[Doby45]

Then they are too small. :D I think you will have much better results with the traditional boolits I send ya.

[geargnasher]

OK, quick review. You're already using water-dropped boolits at, as you, said, nearly 20 bhn (don't know how long after casting these were checked, they might have aged to 22-23 by now) sized to 401" and the brass is STILL squeezing them down a thousandth. You're going to have to get a different expander if you want to shoot lead with any degree of effectiveness. I'll bet air cooled boolits would come out at .399" or smaller. This is the main reason you have leading issues, what little lubrication the tumble lube provides is blown off by the gas leaks halfway down the barrel and it starts to deposit and iron-on lead mist.

Doby's boolits will help because they have a stronger base band and superior lube, but if your cases are squeezing them down to groove diameter, you'll be fighting the same battle, expecially if you up the HS6 powder to 7.5 or more grains.

I wish I could tell you where to go buy the correct expander, but like me you might have to make or have made a custom one. You never said what brand of dies you were using, I'm guessing Lee, but it matters. If you're using an RCBS expander you might find a larger expander plug available from them and it might fix the problem. If you get an expander to prep the cases correctly for cast boolits, you could probably use the TL boolits you have for milder stuff using, say, Unique or even faster powder.

I can't overemphasize that the boolit must enter the bore at the correct diameter, whatever you have to do to make it that way. With the boolit/bore fit, even tumble lube will work for milder loads.

One more thing to add, and this is VERY important: Don't go too crazy with expanding the case "neck", you still need good boolit tension in an autoloader to keep the boolits from working their way back into the cases during recoil. More than one automatic has been blown up because of insufficient boolit tension. When the gun is fired, the front wall of the magazine smacks the boolit nose, sometimes forcing it to be seated deeper and deeper in the case, potentially raising pressures through the roof. Three or four rounds into a clipfull and KABOOM! Just be careful and drop the mag from time to time and pull a few rounds out, check the noses and COAL to be sure.

Gear

[Moonie]

Gun Nut I will get the TCs out in the mail to you tomorrow. The MiHec HPs would have to wait. I thought I had some cast up but I looked and evidently loaded the last of them. I plan to cast some more on Sunday and if you would like some I can wait and send both the TCs and the HPs out to you on Monday...

I believe you sent all your extra's to me, still need to load them up, they do look bootlitiful though.

[Gun Nut]

yes gear i am using a 4 piece lee die set,and bullets are still at 18bnh.

[stainless1911]

I suggest adjusting the seater die so it will crimp and seat at the same time. Yes, it will crimp. .

How do you set the seater die to crimp?

[Moonie]

Normally you setup a seater die 1 1/2 turns from touching the shell holder for no crimp. Turn it in farther for a crimp, adjust to taste.

As always dies are different, refer to the instructions that came with your dies for specifics for your die.

[stainless1911]

When I tried to crimp with this die, it just sheared the lead off of the bullets. It either wouldn't crimp, or it would shear. Useless.

[prickett]

EXPANDER IS TOO SMALL, BRASS TOO TIGHT! Need to get a larger and longer expander.

Gear

Can you get a larger expander for a Lee die? If so, where/how?

TIA

[noylj]

The good thing about Lee is that they will do custom work for a very reasonable amount of money.
Also, like all reloading companies, they WANT to hear about any troubles you have and try and fix it for you.
Never be afraid to call one of the reloading companies about a problem or a question.
The only complain I ever had about the Lee PTE dies is that I wished they would polish the expanders more. Many are very rough from machining. Then again, polishing is very expensive work.

[madsenshooter]

First, you lower the seating die to just touch the mouth of a trimmed case. Then you adjust the seating stem to get the bullet where you want it. Back out the seating stem now and lower the die until you get the crimp you want. Put your dummy round back in and adjust the seating stem to it. If this doesn't help, sorry, but it sounds to me like stainless1911 isn't setting up his dies correctly.

[geargnasher]

Can you get a larger expander for a Lee die? If so, where/how?

TIA

I hired fellow member JimInPHX to machine one for me to my specs in three calibers, I have made some others myself by modifying existing Lee parts and in one case had a local guy make me one. You have to be resourceful sometimes.

Gear

[geargnasher]

First, you lower the seating die to just touch the mouth of a trimmed case. Then you adjust the seating stem to get the bullet where you want it. Back out the seating stem now and lower the die until you get the crimp you want. Put your dummy round back in and adjust the seating stem to it. If this doesn't help, sorry, but it sounds to me like stainless1911 isn't setting up his dies correctly.

It should help, that's how I do it too, and I think you're right about the problem. There is about one turn between crushed case and no crimp.

Gear

[geargnasher]

yes gear i am using a 4 piece lee die set,and bullets are still at 18bnh.

Haven't heard from you in a while, how's the .40?

Gear

[fredj338]

If the pulled bullets are 0.400", sounds too small & the TL isn't doing it's job on the harder alloy. I shoot lead in my 40s, but shun the TL bullet design as I don't feel enough lube is present for the pressures generated, & the thin driving bands are allowing gas leaks, JMO. Shooting single or dbl lube grooves w/ CR, ac ww alloy @ 0.401" running 900-1000fps, not much leading to speak of & exc. accuracy w/ WSF or Unique.

[geargnasher]

I usually go to 1100+ with Blue dot or Longshot, WDWW, .401", and either Felix lube or Carnauba Red/BAC mixed 50/50, at most I get a light antimony wash that comes out with the first patch soaked in Ed's Red.

Gear