45 Colt rifle load w/200 grain plain base boolit

[straightshooter1]

I ask this question on the lever board b/c it deals w/45 Colt rifle loads. I actually will shoot them, tomorrow, in a new Taurus Thunderbolt, which is a copy of the old Colt Lightning. If I offend someone by asking on the lever board, please, Mod, just move it to where you think it should be.

I am shooting tomorrow morning. The range is 100 yards, from the bench and I would like some opinions on a load. (No option on distance, 100 yards or don't shoot).

I have:

200 grain lead flat point plain based boolits which I bought in a box of 500 and which are often used by the SASS shooters.

Large Pistol and Large Rifle primers (Magnums, too, but...).

Trail Boss, Unique and 2400 Powders.

I loaded 50 w/5.8 grains of Trail Boss and LP primers. I suspect these will be "plinkers" but hope to be pleasantly surprised.

I plan to load another 50 with 2400. I was thinking about 16 grains and believe that is a safe load but am concerned it is too hot for a plain based boolit.

None of my manuals (1 modern, 2 oldies) offer loads for cast with 2400, though the new Lyman does with jacketed bullets.

What do you think?

(I have rifle powders, of course, RX7, 4198, 5744, 4064, 4895 etc., but nothing else suitable for pistol cartridges that I can think of).

Thanks,

Bob

[w30wcf]

straightshooter1,

I would suggest trying 8 to 9 grs. of Unique. A friend of mine shoots a 200 gr. cast bullet and he has found that seems to work the best for him.

I have tried Trail Boss but with 250 gr. bullets. 5.8 grs did 800 f.p.s. in my Marlin's 24" barrel with decent accuracy. I also shot 7.1 grs. (924 f.p.s.) and a capacity load of 8.5 grs. (1,024 f.p.s.) which also grouped well (not for toggle link actions).

Please let us know how your testing goes.

Good luck,

w30wcf

[straightshooter1]

The 5,8 grains of Trail Boss were very light and, at 100 yards were grouping in about 10 inches.

The 16 grains of 2400 was much hotter, shot into about 8 inches (sometimes near 6).

To be fair, some of the reason for the size was the rear sight on the Thunderbolt. It is a huge buckhorn, with a teeeeny little itty-bitty notch that I can't see. I really need a tang sight. I tried to fit a Winchester rear sight but they are too different.

I see some hope, just think I will try the Unique. The Thunderbolt requires the OAL to be shorter than the max length to operate/feed. 1.6 won't work through the action, I loaded to 1.575 and it was fine.

Cool gun, though. Even limited to one at a time, from the bench, it was neat. Work the pump, catch the empty in your right hand. Same place every time.

Will keep at it.

Bob

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'm about to retire and I am going to set myself up with a new set of cowboy guns. I'm seriously thinkinbout one of the Thunderbolts and a pair of new Vaqueros in 45 Colt. Nowwwwwwwwwww! How about a shotgun, we can't have pumps here, so maybe a Chinee boy 97 lever. Mick.

PS, The rear sight is a bit ordinary. It is not so much a sight groove, but a guide for a file I think.

[straightshooter1]

Other than the rear sight being so large, and the fact that you have to reduce the OAL a bit, it is really an incredible gun. Slick action, works (all guns should work, but...), has a great feel, great balance and looks great. For the SASS shooters it is fast, and slamfires if you are into hosing.

The dovetail is deeper than my Winchester and Marlin rear sights, so they won't fit. Have read on the 'net that there's a tang sight that will fit, but want to be sure before I order. I am not sure which sight that is, but hope it is one of the Marble's.

If I can't find a tang, I may (probably will anyway) open and square the rear teeny notch. If there was someone who could/would drill and tap around here, I'd think about trying a regular aperture.

Bob

[KCSO]

Brownell's has a rear sight for that dovetail made by, Marble's, I think. My 45 colt rifle loads have all pretty much been with unique as that was what worked best, but Green Dot was a close second. I am using Trail Boss in a 38-40 now, but have not had a chance to try it in the 45 Colt.

[straightshooter1]

KCSO-How is that rear sight cataloged, if you know. I didn't see anything for the Thunderbolt on their web site. I found their #95 folding rear sight, but it is similar to the Win/Marlin sights. The base on the Taurus sight is lower, so trying to put the Win/Marlin sight in doesn't work, as the base is too short to hit the dovetail.

There is a Taurus tang sight, but it only fits their 22 rifles.

I think the 5.8 grains of Trail Boss was too light, and I might try it again with a heavier load. I think 5.8 would be okay with a heavier bullet, though.

Bob

[w30wcf]

4fingermick,
Congratulations on your upcoming retirement :drinks: I can't think of anything more fitting than some new cowboy guns as a fitting start to a more relaxed life.
More time for shooting too!

Regarding the original Colt Lightning Rifles, I understand that quite a few of them found their way to Australia in the late 1800's early 1900's. Back then, the Australians refered to them as "MAGIC".

Have fun,
w30wcf

[Four Fingers of Death]

There are a few about, a gunshop in Goulburn, a town south of here has about five or six on the wall. He won't part with any though.

I really fancy one in 44WCF.

Mick.

[GooseGestapo]

FWIW;
I've found that with my Win m94 in .45colt (it's a Legacy w/24"bbl) I have to run the loads hot with Unique or Win231 to prevent "blow-by" due to lack of obturation of the case.

With heavier Unique loads, or with most heavier #2400 loads, it dosen't blow back. It would be really annoying if shooting rapid fire in competiton.

I'm also using Starline brass, but it does it with Magtech brass also. The Magtech is much like Winchester or Remington brass.

[StarMetal]

I have both the Win 94 and Marlin Cowboy in 45 Colt and I don't have any problems like mentioned with light or heavy loads. Sometimes with light loads the cases are blackened alittle bit more then normal, but no blowby.

Joe

[felix]

Chamber size is just too large in the 45 colt 94 that I have. Mine is about 0.005 over. Faster powders do a better job of expanding the case at the mouth without expanding the web too much. I tried using Casull cases, and they tend to be too hard, and are actually smaller in diameter than the regular colt cases. These heavier duty cases are NOT the way to go. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I realize that, and you're right, they are on the fat side, but GooseGestapo said: It would be really annoying if shooting rapid fire in competiton. My two rifles arean't no way that bad, are yours?

Joe

[felix]

I guess, Joe, it depends on how much blowback we are talking about. Dirty cases are just that, dirty cases. If accuracy is good enough, then so be it. Rapid fire in a true auto machine, then probably the soot in time will build up to cause a jam. The military can get away with large chambers because their cases are quite soft up where it counts. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I reread what Goose wrote and he didn't specify what was could be annoying in competition, I assumed he was getting a little wisp of gas coming back, because although I get some blowby with light loads, they just blacken the case alittle in my examples. In fact I could probably fire literally 100's of them with no problems or big soot build up.

Yes both my Win and Marlin are very accurate. I think I mentioned it before, but if not, I use to hunt groundhogs with my Mod 94 Trapper up in Pa Felix. My load was the RCBS 255 gr SWC over 9.0 grs of Unique. I shot some pretty far out with that load and it walloped them pretty good too. The Marlin even shoots better. I told you once before too, that I shot some really 454 Casul class loads out of the Winchester with no problems, but no longer do that. I would imagine if my chamber was really oversized with those load, by the way that were not assembled on new brass, that the web would have surely blown out, but it did not. Like I said, I don't shoot those anymore. Same as with my Ruger three screw in 45 Colt, I don't push that anymore either.

The chamber in the Winchester is a tad larger then my Marlin by the way.

Joe

[GooseGestapo]

RE: blow-by

I get enough that it would be a problem if not wearing shooting glasses, such as while hunting.

With the Starline cases, 7.6gr of Win231 gave a NOTICEABLE, more than a whiff. This was with both 200gr RFN and 255gr RFN. A bit less with the 255gr boolit.
This was alleviated by moving up to 8.4gr of 231.
Ditto with 10.0gr of Unique, however, the 200gr boolit wasn't accurate at this speed due to the lack of lubricant and the 24" bbl.

I didn't have a problem with 14.5 or 16.5gr #2400.

Best load with 255gr boolit is the 8.4gr of 231, and would be my load of choice for Cowboy shooting.
The 7.6gr load of 231 duplicated the Magtech 255gr Cowboy load at ~990fps from the LONG rifle barrel. This load also "sneezes back"!
8.4 gave ~1,100fps and would be a decent shortrange game load. No blow-back.

Best accuracy came with #2400 and the Lee 452-310WFN-GC.
Good accuracy began at 16.5gr, and peaked with a MAXIMUM for THIS FIREARM at 20.0gr and ~1,600fps. This is real PIG HAMMER !! It groups to 1.5" or better at 50yds, sized to .452 w/ 50/50 alox, aircooled w/w, and seated to foward crimp-groove.

DON'T USE THIS LOAD IN ANY COLT SAA OR CLONE, OR S&W HANDGUN.
THIS LOAD IS MAXIMUM FOR 1894 RIFLES, AND T/C OR RUGER HANDGUNS
ONLY !!!!!

This rifle also likes J-boolits too.
The Hornady 250gr XTP over the 20.0gr of 2400 (Nosler's max and accuracy load from #4 manual) give ~1,700fps and 1" groups at 100yds (with iron sights no less!). Hurt some feelings at the range the day I "played" with this one. Several b-action shooters packed up and left in disgust after seeing the groups this rifle shoots with cast and j-boolits.

Chamber seems to be perfectly cut. No excessive "swelling" of the fired cases noted with any of the above mentioned loads, however the MAXIMUM loads are noticeable when resizing the brass, though primer pockets show NO sign of loosening even after a number of fireings.

[GooseGestapo]

RE: blow-by

I get enough that it would be a problem if not wearing shooting glasses, such as while hunting.

With the Starline cases, 7.6gr of Win231 gave a NOTICEABLE, more than a whiff, amount of blow-back. This was with both 200gr RFN and 255gr RFN. A bit less with the 255gr boolit.
This was alleviated by moving up to 8.4gr of 231.
Ditto with 10.0gr of Unique, however, the 200gr boolit wasn't accurate at this speed due to the lack of lubricant and the 24" bbl.

I didn't have a problem with 14.5 or 16.5gr #2400.

Best load with 255gr boolit is the 8.4gr of 231, and would be my load of choice for Cowboy shooting.
The 7.6gr load of 231 duplicated the Magtech 255gr Cowboy load at ~990fps from the LONG rifle barrel. This load also "sneezes back"!
8.4 gave ~1,100fps and would be a decent shortrange game load. No blow-back.

[StarMetal]

GooseGestapo,

That's amazing, I definately don't get any whisp of gas from the action, nor does my friend that has the same rifle. I know my chamber is on the fat side from measuring fired cases and also comparing them to cases fired in the other various 45 Colt firearms I have.

Oh I have used Winchester, Remington, and Starline brass, no difference in them as far as blowby.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

You have a problem that you need to diagnose. Where are your cases losing seal? Usually with a 45 Colt, brass seal isn't a problem. But with low pressures and long barrels, brass can springback before bullet exit as pressure drops and give you that dirty case look.

Try a fast and then slow powder about a fairly stiff level for the case. If it still leaks with the fast powder and not the slow, then you have low pressure problems down the bore and need to anneal the mouth of your cases to prevent springback at low pressures. If they fail to seal in both situations, then anneal your brass at a line at the base of your bullet. This will allow the case to seal and fold open as the slug exits the case.

Strange as this sounds, it could be a lube problem too. A real slipery lube can lower pressure in cases like this. If you want to shoot cast bullets at cast bullet velocities there is no finer lube than 50/50 Alox for this tash. Plenty of friction to get good ignition and maintain pressure of any lube out there. If you want to go above 35,000 psi then there are finer lubes. If all I wanted was cast bullet velocities, I would never turn away from 50/50 Alox.

So anything related to pressure can also be a cause. It can also be a bullet diameter problem. The larger a bullet diameter the less case expansion is necessary. Plus the more pressure it throws because it has to size down in the throat.

A bullet hardness issue. You might need a softer bullet to aid in swelling the case.

etc, etc.

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, straightshooter1, sounds like you've got a real annoying problem. I think all the common possibilities of gas blow-by or leakage have been covered. My model 92 Rossi in .357 Magnum blows gas quite badly when using .38 Special loads with the Lyman 358156 (158-grain semi-wadcutter w/gas check) and 3.2 grains of Bullseye, but full house loads with H110 and 2400 it seals up nicely, proving again that case seal is dependent on the gas pressure.

Now with that said, is there a possibility that the smoke is coming from the dovetail cut into the barrel top? My buddy who is into .69 caliber muzzle loading rifled buffalo cannons had one that leaked gas like crazy. He thought that it was just from the cap nipple letting loose from 200 grains of FG, which is understandable since nipples leak. Yup, that’s what he thought until early one evening when it was getting late and he touched off one last shoulder buster before it got too dark to see. I saw a big bunch of smoke and a small amount of fire coming from under the big folding leaf rear sight. Since he used a ladder-type tang sight mounted to the breechblock tang, he could not normally see the base of the rear sight when firing, but I could. The leaf sight was mounted in a dovetail but also had a jam screw just behind the dovetail cut to prevent movement and it had come out or maybe was never put in and whoever had drilled the hole had gone through far enough for the drill point to create a small hole that intercepted the bore! With the leaves folded down on top of the screw hole it was not visible, besides the hinge spring for the leaves was pretty stiff and tight enough to prevent the gas pressure from pushing the leaves upright. When he fired, the folded down sight leaves directed the gas flow back into his face. I asked him if he had ever noticed smoke blowing from the base of the rear sight when reloading, but he said because he had always put the six feet of rifle between his legs and with the rear sight back out of sight behind him he could not see what was going on with it. Back in those days I had enough nuts and bolts to open a hardware store so I found him a stainless steel 4-40 screw to plug up the hole and secure his rear sight. It made his giant muzzleloader much more pleasant to shoot without the BIG face-full of black powder smoke.

[straightshooter1]

Actually it is GooseGestapo who has the blowback problem. I did have a bit with the 5.8 grains of Trail Boss. I believe the 45 Colt has always been known for this problem in rifles.

Bob

[StarMetal]

John Bass,

He said he was using 7.6 grs of WW231 and got a whisp of gas then upped it to 8.4 grs. Well I'm not near my books, but I know 231 is pretty fast powder, alot faster then Unique and Red Dot. I'd say those loads are getting up there even in a 45 Colt.

I was thinking, here an idea that might help. First I'd try all the brands of brass if that is possible. Your Starlines might be work hardened too. Anyways alot of members only size pistol rounds enough to hold a bullet. In other words size down the case (i'm talking about not fully running it into the sizing die) just past the point the bullet you will be using will be seated too. That way the case will be a custom fit for your rifle. Of course if you're usings the loads in multiple guns you can't do that unless you keep them separate for each gun.

I don't think your chamber is much different then mine. I think the brass is work hardened.

Joe

[NickSS]

I usually get some blackening of the cases in a 45 colt with light loads but nothing that actually gets back to my face. However, I do know that starline brass tends to be a little hard and they actually tell you to anneal their 45-70 brass if you are planning to use it with low pressure loads. I tried this with my 45 Colt brass and got a hole lot less blackening of the cases. To keep this working this way I have to anneal the cases about every fourth reload. It also cuts way back on case splitting. I set the cases in a half inch of water head down and heat the case mouth with a propane torch and when they are cherry red tip them over with a dowel stick. Works great for stopping a lot of blowby.

[NickSS]

I for got to mention that the 200 gr loads run out of accuracy in my rifles at around 50 yards after that the 255 gr round nose flat point lyman bullet does much better. I have a Marlin and a Rossie 92 in this caliber and the marlin is more accurate rifle but the Rossi is my favorit for Cowboy Action Shooting.