Mml modified

[DragoonDrake]

Well guys I have tried my hand at this lube. I had to make afew modifications so I was usig what I had on hand. My recipe:
3 pounds randyrat beeswax
1pound canning paraffin
1 pound coastal all purpose grease
1/4 cup vybar
one yaley dye block

I have to clean my lubrsizer of NRA lube then I will inform you of the results. It will be used with 44mag loads, 7mm tcu, 454, and 357max. Once I have gas checks it might be used with 243 win.

[geargnasher]

I don't quite understand your logic, but ok. Could you explain? I would have kept the Vybar down to around two teapoons, depending on what variety you used. What you have there I'll bet is harder than hammered cat poop. I'd definetely hand or pan lube a few before filling the sizer up with it.

Gear

[DragoonDrake]

Gear I had only used vybar before in candle making. I figured since I was losing the half a pound of microwax and adding a touch more grease that a little extra vybar would be in order. I normally would use one tblespn per two pounds. And yes I checked this morning, it is much harder than I expected, it is as hard as the NRA lube and I was hoping for something a little softer. I filled a quart jar and two cake pans; I might take one cake pans worth weigh it and maybe add some Vaseline or stp.

[felix]

You are getting the hang of it quite well. Always use different batches for different loads until you get a true feel for not only the components, but what the gun combo likes for the application. I typically tune one load, one gun, and then modify the lube only when the alloy changes by component and/or treatment to bring back the identical acceptable tune. This assumes there are many guns in the stable. Life is too short to have only one lube formula unless you are getting tired of it all. Then its best to sell gun, load, lube together to a friend who wants to get into the game. ... felix

[DragoonDrake]

Felix I have been using fwfl, Cali saeco, and the NRA lube plus maybe four or five others. I have not had good luck with any lube and hot weather wit these smaller bullets.

[felix]

Stay with only one gun, load until satisfied. And pay very close attention to everything within the cartridge. Gotta' crawl before up and running. ... felix

[DragoonDrake]

I have paraffin oil. Would that be a better thinning agent?

[runfiverun]

mineral oil
is what parrafin oil is airc or a very close facsimile.

[geargnasher]

You are getting the hang of it quite well. Always use different batches for different loads until you get a true feel for not only the components, but what the gun combo likes for the application. I typically tune one load, one gun, and then modify the lube only when the alloy changes by component and/or treatment to bring back the identical acceptable tune. This assumes there are many guns in the stable. Life is too short to have only one lube formula unless you are getting tired of it all. Then its best to sell gun, load, lube together to a friend who wants to get into the game. ... felix

Awww, c'mon Felix, I tend to think that life is too long to only have one lube formula!

Actually, I do only have one lube formula anymore, it's FWFL, no need for any others since I finally got the hang of tweaking the proportions of the six ingredients to get exactly what my different guns and climate like best. That's my K.I.S.S. principle. Others have theirs.

Gear

[Hammer]

Please tell me what Vybar is.... my brain is in neutral this morning....

Thanks

[DragoonDrake]

It is a hardening agent for candles.

[357maximum]

Comparing VyBar to Micro430 is like comparing concrete to sillyputty. :holysheep

The micro430 can actually be used as a lube all by itself in low demand/short barrel situations. If you added color most guys would try it and like it in 38special and the like. Micro430 is basically really really thick and less oily vasoline.


IMHO you would be far better off to dump the plastic Vybar altogether. Then reduce the paraffin by 1/2.

Lithi-Bee is a great lube also it just had some cold start fliers. The paraffin/micro was added to make this annoying trait go away.

[geargnasher]

Please tell me what Vybar is.... my brain is in neutral this morning....

Thanks

It's used to bind perfume oil to the wax so you can exceed the normal solubility level of the paraffin for perfume oil. This keeps the perfume oil saturation consistent throughout the candle and keeps the oil from settling out in layers while the candle hardens. It also tends to harden the wax some.

Candle paraffin is a macro wax and has a low solubility for liquid oils. That's why MML employs microcrystalline wax which has a much higher saturation point for lubricating oils.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ahh, Mike, you beat me to it again!

Gear

[DragoonDrake]

I would have never known about the oil saturation because I never put scents in my candles. I just made candles for light. Of course I used beeswax so it smelled good anyways.

[geargnasher]

I would have never known about the oil saturation because I never put scents in my candles. I just made candles for light. Of course I used beeswax so it smelled good anyways.

Sorry, that "of course" wasn't obvious to me, most of the candlemakers I know use cheap paraffin, color it and scent it up like a French prostitute, and use the Vybar to make all that hold together. You get my commendation for making real beeswax candles, I did the same thing regularly as a kid, we lived in the country far away from electricity and used kerosene lamps and beeswax taper candles for light. Didn't have electric reading light until I was in college.

Now a question, never having done it: How much does the Vybar harden the beeswax? Does it, for example, make a taper candle as hard and brittle as paraffin? One problem with the beeswax tapers is their tendency to get soft and curl over after a while, expecially in the Texas Summer. I might try making some again for "old time's sake" if the Vybar would help this.

Gear

[DragoonDrake]

When I did taper candles with my grandmother we would put one tablespoon of vybar per two pounds of beeswax. I will be honest it was a long time ago and we really only used them during Ohio Winters. We did pure beeswax once and yes they flopped over, which is why tried the vybar. With the vybar they were not brittle and did not fall over. She told me about the times she made lard candles and cleared the house for a night because of the horrid smell. I rendered fat once and I could believe her.
Adam

[fryboy]

tallow makes a better candle than lard but both soot to beat the band ...as for aroma a bit of that depends upon how well either the lard or tallow is refined and that in turn also helps the lard/tallow from going rancid ( thus even making them more noxious )

[Thecyberguy]

Comparing VyBar to Micro430 is like comparing concrete to sillyputty. :holysheep

The micro430 can actually be used as a lube all by itself in low demand/short barrel situations. If you added color most guys would try it and like it in 38special and the like. Micro430 is basically really really thick and less oily vasoline.


IMHO you would be far better off to dump the plastic Vybar altogether. Then reduce the paraffin by 1/2.

Lithi-Bee is a great lube also it just had some cold start fliers. The paraffin/micro was added to make this annoying trait go away.

Where does one find "MICRO 430"?
Thanks and have a good 'un TCG

[BABore]

Where does one find "MICRO 430"?
Thanks and have a good 'un TCG

http://www.blendedwaxes.com/index.php/products/microcrystalline-waxes

[DragoonDrake]

Update on this lube.

I ended up taking two pounds of the lube and adding 2oz of petroleum jelly. Still too hard for good use. So to the two pounds and 2 oz. (minus two bullets worth) I added a bottle of stp oil treatment. I know it may have been over kill and may make the lube two slippery and yes the quantity is greater than that of Saeco green, but I figured I like it in saeco green and I still have some of the original set aside if it is too soft.

Well Saturday I decided to give it a whirl. I ended up having to put my containers of it in the oven at 300 degrees for about two hours to get it to fully melt. I am thinking this stuff is going to be too hard still. I get it into my lubrisizer and some lube stick molds. I let it cool for a day and gave it a try. In my 50 degree reloading room it ran fine in my lyman sizer. I opened the window to let some light in on my sizer and the lube ran even smoother.

I am hoping this is the high heat/sun lube that is going to do the trick for me. I am still going to do some shooting in cooler weather to see how it handles. Also I do get the stp spiderwebs with this lube.

Adam

[btroj]

Ever think about going back and following the original recipe and ending all the messing around?

Not trying to be a jerk but good, well tested, lube recipes took lots of time to get there. I prefer to follow the recipe exactly as someone else has usually done lots of testing, trial, and error to get a good lune in the end. I figure that I can make it worse but will be hard pressed to make it much better.

[DragoonDrake]

Not to be a jerk, but btroj do you cast? Do you always do what others before have done? Do you not have fun trying different things? I could also buy from White Labels (which I did when I started casting). Besides if you saw in the OP I did not have any microwax and was trying something different that I have known to work in another completely different set of circumstances.

Thank you.

[D Crockett]

I am looking to make a hard lube that I can ship bullets to my friends with out falling out of the lube grove and still work to but it has to be something I can make this thread looks to be what I am looking for any help I would appreciate thank you very much D Crockett

[nanuk]

Not to be a jerk, but sometimes I just can't help myself!

[btroj]

I do cast. Have been for 28 years now. I have made Felix lube in the past. Followed recipe to a T and it worked very well.

All I was saying is that MML is a lube made from a specific set of ingredients. Mike spent ALOT of time getting to that recipe. I have no desire to spend that much time, or money, to reinvent the wheel. I do not try to improve that which works.

I full u derstand experimentation. I just wonder at what point you have strayed so far from the original that it is now a totally different lube? I also saw Felix suggest taking small samples of your lube and making small, measured changes to them. Test and record what you did and what works. That is experimentation.

I have used much Carnuba Red but recently got a bunch of MML from the inventor. When o run out I will be making more but I will follow his recipe to a T because I know what the end product will be. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[DragoonDrake]

If it ain't broke don't fix it yes; but EVERYTHING can be improved upon. I just feel casters as a group are experimenters (sp) by nature. I have made Felix, saeco green, and a whole slew of others to the T, I like reinventing the wheel. I like to take notes. Felix did suggest small batches, yes; I did not follow the better person's advice and I luckily did not suffer for that. Also I made about 4 pounds in the first batch and two is only half.

[geargnasher]

Update on this lube.

I ended up taking two pounds of the lube and adding 2oz of petroleum jelly. Still too hard for good use. So to the two pounds and 2 oz. (minus two bullets worth) I added a bottle of stp oil treatment. I know it may have been over kill and may make the lube two slippery and yes the quantity is greater than that of Saeco green, but I figured I like it in saeco green and I still have some of the original set aside if it is too soft.

Well Saturday I decided to give it a whirl. I ended up having to put my containers of it in the oven at 300 degrees for about two hours to get it to fully melt. I am thinking this stuff is going to be too hard still. I get it into my lubrisizer and some lube stick molds. I let it cool for a day and gave it a try. In my 50 degree reloading room it ran fine in my lyman sizer. I opened the window to let some light in on my sizer and the lube ran even smoother.

I am hoping this is the high heat/sun lube that is going to do the trick for me. I am still going to do some shooting in cooler weather to see how it handles. Also I do get the stp spiderwebs with this lube.

Adam


Not that you asked, but my observations are that your experiment is a little bit counter-productive. You have included Randy's beeswax (hard), macro wax (hard), Vybar (hardener) and some grease, STP, and Vaseline to soften it back up. Too many things fighting themselves here, and very little binder/emulsifier/or surfacant/dispersant in the mix at all to prevent oil separation. Basically you have some good lube ingredients when taken by themselves, but have combined them in a rather haphazard way.

Essentially you need a carrier, a lubricant, and sometimes you need to add a binder to keep it together. Wheel bearing grease is made from metal soaps, and will combine quite well with beeswax in about a 50/50 ratio without any help. Beeswax is a micro-crystalline substance which has remarkable oil-absorbing properties, but won't readily hold certain oils in combination without a binding agent like stearates, so we add things like Ivory soap if dictated by the oils we're adding, of if we desire additional hardness. Canning wax, well, I have no use for it in boolit lube, too hard/brittle when cold, too runny when warm, and doesn't absorb much oil. I haven't found any properties of Vaseline that Lanolin won't do better. STP is interesting because it contains a lubricating oil base, along with a powerful dispersent package that helps it (in boolit lube) stay in saturation, whether the base is paraffin or beeswax.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I'm trying to shed a little light on why your lube is doing what it's doing, and add that if you're building a high-heat lube it likely won't be a good winter lube except at very high velocity/pressure, if then.

Gear

[357maximum]

Re-inventing the wheel can be both fun, time consuming, and expensive :mrgreen:

I started with lithi-bee. I then made some felix. I then proceeded to make 56 other concoction$. Eventually I simply stopped from utter exhau$tion, laid out 300+ targets on the floor then carefully compared ALL my notes. Empiracle evidence made me come full circle and tweak lithi-bee for my uses/climate with some microwax/paraffin to simply change the viscosity and handling properties. Some more testing by myself and others, some tweaking of that basic lube is what led to MML.

I had fun and spent alot of money along the way. $500+ dollars or so in exotic oils and waxes, several years of stirring the cauldron and I eventually landed not too far from where I started. MML would not have ever been if it were not for some great field testers, some serious OCD and some crazy thoughts that led me back to some version of sanity eventually.

I am sure that MML can be modified to better suit YOUR needs, but I am happy with MML as it is and I am done searching. I have a large batch of deep purple MML that will outlast me.

I say have fun testing, please post your results.

[DragoonDrake]

Thank you Gear for the insight. I did not ask, but I do appreciate the information.

[btroj]

Thanks 357max, nothing better than getting the word straight from the horses mouth.

I just prefer to find a lune that works and stay with it.I want to cast bullets and shoot them. I don't want to spend hours and hours trying to make a better lube when I have one that works.

We are deeply in debt to those who have developed some of the lubes we use. I am very glad they did the work and testing to get a recipe for us to use. I just don't have the patience or mind set to do that kind of work, besides, my wife would kill me!

Brad