Annealing brass (45-70)

[ghh3rd]

The info sheet that came with my 45-70 Starline brass calls for annealing it. I always thought that annealing was only required for reworking the brass for use as a different cartridge.

I'm concerned about doing more harm than good with my propane torch -- after reading that overeheating ruins the brass. Also, I would imagine that not maintaining the same annealing temperature from case to case would result in boolits being gripped differently in each round, affecting accuracy.

I've heard that some folks dip cases into lead to anneal - is this an acceptable method? If so, how is it properly done? I wonder how they keep the heat from travelling up toward the head and ruining it?

Perhaps I should skip annealing the first 50 cases, and see how long they last.

Randy

[WARD O]

Annealing with a propane torch is not so tough... I've been doing it for years with excellant results.

In a safe place to work with a torch, put 8-10 inches of water in a 5 gallon pail, set a 1" x 3" board that is long enough across the center of the pail. Stand one of your new brass (I've usually sized them first to iron out any dents) near the edge of the board in the center of the pail. With your propane torch set to project about 1" of blue flame simply apply the tip of the blue flame to the edge of the case mouth and follow the edge around and around, never stopping in one place. You will need to hold the torch in a mostly upsidedown position above the brass to apply the heat correctly. When you just start to see the brass begin to glow orange, gently slide the brass off the board and allow it to drop into the water to quench. That's pretty much it!

I use an old putty knife or a small spatula to slide the brass off the board. You do not want the hot soft brass to contact anything but the water. After trying a few you will soon be lining up 6 or more at a time on your board and finding out it really doesn't take very long.

A little orange is ok but you do not want to get the brass really orange hot.

***The most important thing is to keep the torch moving, never stopping or dwelling in one area. This is what gives you uniformity and that is good.***

If you can slightly lower the lights in the room it helps to see when the orange starts to appear.

If you want, there are machines just made to do this job - check over on the Shiloh Forum for details - they used to sell for around $300 if I remember correctly.

Ward

[ghh3rd]

That doesn't sound too difficult. Right now the only gas that I have is MAP gas, which is hotter than propane. I wonder if I could just move quicker with the same results?

[sisiphunter]

The way I do it is fairly similar. Get a cake pan style container, something that can take heat. Put about 1" of water in the bottom and stand your cases up in the cool water, head down of course. Heat the brass top down, then tip into the water once they just start to turn orangish, same as above. Standing the brass in the cool water also helps prevent overheating the head as it is already standing in cool water. I use an old broken cleaning rod to tip them over as it is a bit warm on the fingers.

Matt

[WARD O]

I don't know too much about MAP gas but I doubt it would matter if the brass seems to be coming out the same. Remember to keep the torch moving and don't touch or poke the brass near the case mouth while it is hot.

I've never had any trouble with soft heads with my method - I used to do centerfire wildcat varmint cartridge rounds and they were much higher pressure than the 45-70. Never had any failures.

It always seemed harder to tip the hot brass over when they were standing in the water without touching the hot portion of the brass. That's why I like my method, just slide the brass off the board into the water.

Practice with any old brass you have to get the feel for it.

ward

[Bret4207]

Those methods sound like they work, but determining what "orange" is may be trouble. The way I do it is very similar but I grip the case head with some cheap skinny needle nose pliers. I leave the torch still and move the brass. Quench temp is determined by watching the bluish discoloration run down towards the case head. When it approaches the are where the web thickens I quench. You'll need decently polished brass to use my method.

The lead quenching method is similar but even more fool proof. Get your lead pot nice and molten. Grip the case head in your fingers and dip the case mouth and maybe 1/2" of the neck in the alloy. When your fingers get uncomfortable due to heat toss the case in the water. That was the first method I was ever shown. Works great on longer brass, but the first time I tried it with 32-20's I found out what the "short" coming was. Can't hold the brass long enough to get the annealing done!

[XWrench3]

the only brass i have ever annealed is my 300 win mag brass. and that is because of its SHORT life with full power loads. usually, 3 or 4 full power loads is enough to split the necks. i have also ruined some brass with a propane torch by getting them to hot, which makes for not enough tension on the bullet. i have reloaded many 45-70 starline brass at least 10 times with no cracking, and some of these are HEAVY loads! with new brass, i wouldnt mess with them. if you ever get one split neck, then, i would try it to extend the case life. my cases are nickel plated, so i am not sure how this would work anyway. i see a couple of fancy machines to anneal brass that cost big dollars. but next time i find a decent transformer at a yard sale, i am going to try to make my own coil type annealing tool. i think those are the best way to do it. then all you will need is some "tempilaq", which is a paint marker of sorts that leaves behind a coating that melts at a specific temperature. that way, the brass will not get to hot, and not ruined. in my mind, doing this PROPERLY with a single propane torch is going to be tough to do.

[Recluse]

When I anneal brass out in the shop, I turn the lights off. There is still enough ambient light available for me to see what I'm doing, but it's dark enough so that I can see the brass changing colors a lot faster, and thus keep from overheating it.

I use a glove, hold and rotate the brass in one hand and work the torch with the other. Soon as I see the brass begin to change colors, I drop it in the (water) quench tray.

:coffee:

[Fixxah]

There is a liquid that changes color when done incorrectly. I forget where I saw or read about it but the color blue sticks in my mind. It was a Handloader magazine I believe.

Try this:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[montana_charlie]

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html

[nicholst55]

Tempilaq(R) is what you need; Hornady includes a bottle of 650 degree liquid with their annealing kit, which, incidentally, does not include a heat-sink/shell holder large enough for .45-70.

You can buy Tempilaq from Brownells or a local welding supply house; it comes in either liquid or crayon form. Apply some to a couple of cases and heat the case mouth area until the Tempilaq flows, then quench. Use it on a couple of cases until you get the hang of it.

I spin my .45-70 brass in a Sinclair case holder/spinner for a neck turning tool.

Tempilaq (http://www.tempil.com/closeup.asp?cid=25&pid=27&theme=0)

Also, search YouTube for a video entitled 'Annealing with Tempilaq;' I can't link to it from here (Korea) for whatever reason.

[geargnasher]

Lee case trimmer base in a drill. Chuck the case, trim it with the Lee tool, inside and outside debur, spin in front of the waiting torch until the color change Bret mentioned, then dunk in water almost up to the shell holder. Release case, add a fresh one, repeat.

Gear

[cbrick]

Try this for everything you ever wanted to know about annealing.

Cartridge Case Annealing by Ken Light (http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm)

It also describes the BC-1000 annealing machine made by ken Light.

Rick

[WARD O]

There are a lot of us out here that have used one method or another and acheived quite satisfactory results - it does not have to be rocket science if you pay attention!

And in at least one instance it certainly does improve accuracy. The whole idea behind annealing 45-70 Starline brass relates to an attempt to achieve a certain level of consistent neck tension. When shooting long range with lead boolits and black powder, consistent neck tension is critical to accuracy. On a national competition level, some shooters are annealing between every firing. Logic tells us that if the theory applies here, it also applies at some lesser level with all cartridges. You get to decide what is important to you and your hobby.

Annealing does help avoid neck splitting on brass that has seen repeated use. This may not be a big deal when shooting commonly available brass but if you are playing with something you have to "make" or customize, it might be an easy way to extend brass life.

There..... That ought to be worth at least two cents!

Ward

[Wally]

I have used this method---work in a room that is a bit dark...as Recluse mentioned. I sit in a chair with a bucket illed with water below me. I hold the case by the base and rotate it in the flame of a propane torch, heating teh case mouth, watching the color change--as it starts to go "orange" I drop it in the bucket--it should make a sound of hot metal sizzling in when it hits the water. I count (1001, 1002,etc to about 1,005)...and do the same for all the cases...this makes the anealling consisent---I have never burned my fingers from a too hot case as you don't have to hold it to the flame for all that long (5~6 seconds) --one thing..don't heat it too much (IE red hot)...

[ghh3rd]

I have two 50-packs of Starline 45-70 brass, and think I'll try annealing one pack. I'll follow the advice I read to test my skill on some old brass first.

The method that I think I'll try is to hold the case by the base and rotate it in the flame. This way, I'll know that the base isn't getting too hot -- if it does start to, I'll be the first to know :-)

I figure I should do everything that I can to get the most from my casting and reloading efforts, rather than skipping a step.

Thanks all

Randy

[Von Gruff]

Brass only needs to get to 650 degrees or so to anneal which is why the lead pot method will work even if it can lead to a bit of 'tinning' that can be a chore to get rid of. There is no need to get the brass orrange and there is need to drop into water if the heat is not over done. With a polished case and a well lighted room it is very easy to see the first colour change hapening and this is a slight rainbow-blueing. I have my cases turning and direct the torch flame at the shoulder neck junction of the case. This way the neck is annealed first and the colour change can be seen as it travels across the shoulder to the shoulder - case wall junction. I stop when the colour reaches this point and drop them in a steel bowl. There is no heat travel to the head of the case as the air cooling is faster than the heat travel especially as there has been only enough heat to do the desired anneal. If you look at any of the comercial annealers, they do not heat past the blue stage and do not water drop.

I use a long socket with a bolt tapped into the base and set into a battery drill and drop a case into the socket place the drill on the stand and for the small cases as in 20 VarTarg it takes about 5 seconds in the flame before the case is tipped out. While the case is turning I pick up another case with my left hand and drop it in the socket as the first is dropped out. Mid sized cases as in the 7x57 take about 7 seconds and the large 404 Jeffery are about 9 or 10. I have three sized socked to that take all my cases and I can get through an annealing session quite quickly. I anneal every re-load in some instances but for the run of the mill plinking loads every third time is sufficient. Have cases that have had 40 loads and have seen reports of more than twice that.

This is my set up

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/003.jpg

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/004-1.jpg

Von Gruff.

[Good Cheer]

In making 375x45-70's have always used a propane torch and a shallow pan of water. Always works great.

[HangFireW8]

When I anneal brass out in the shop, I turn the lights off. There is still enough ambient light available for me to see what I'm doing, but it's dark enough so that I can see the brass changing colors a lot faster, and thus keep from overheating it.

I use a glove, hold and rotate the brass in one hand and work the torch with the other. Soon as I see the brass begin to change colors, I drop it in the (water) quench tray.

:coffee:

Really good advice here. I annealed about a zillion cases (almost) for my 257RAI project. I found that heating until glowing is absolutely unnecessary. Just get it hot enough until you start to see colors running around the brass (hard to describe but you'll know it when you see it), then knock the brass over into the water. The pan of water protects the base from annealing which is really important for safety.

Not only did I find it made the brass soft enough, it was more evenly soft and not overly soft like the red-hot treatment. Evenly annealed brass necks are important because you want a consistent crimp. So, you either have to develop a very consistent technique or set up a jig, fixture or mechanism to do it for you.

-HF

[Horace]

I`ve used a 6" piece of brass rod 3/8" in diameter chucked in a drill with cases placed over it.
I like the Von Gruff method will try it next. Horace

[MtGun44]

I compared accy between lead pot annealing (hold it until your fingers say drop it, worked
out to about 15 sec for me) for 7.5 Swiss. I was getting neck cracking and degraded
accy over time.
I then compared it to torch annealing, using the shallow pan of water method.
Cases standing in about 1-1.5" of water and heating with a torch in dimly lit room until
just getting a bit of glow and NOT knocking the cases over (NO benefit to cases from
quenching whatsoever except protecting the head from over heat, and cannot overheat
when standing in water) so that I did not have to spend a bunch of time drying them out.
I do this before decapping, after tumbling. If I don't knock them over, I can pick them
out and wipe off the outside and then size, trim and load. Otherwise I have to wait
overnight or more for them to dry. Can't see why I want my cases ful of water.

My accy improved noticably with lead pot annealing and substantially more with the
torch annealing. I am torch annealing my 7.5x55 Swiss brass now every other loading
cycle. This is the first brass that I have loaded enough cycles to have a steady loss
from neck cracking, plus since all shots are either practice or match, I can see the
accy deterioration happening more readily.

Bill

[ghh3rd]

I was trying to decide between the spin with a drill or pan of water method, and thought I'd try the drill. Now I think that I'll try the pan of water method - makes sense that you can't damage the head that way, although I suppose it wouldn't be hard to overheat if not very careful.

How far apart do you space the brass in the pan?

Funny that I never realized that annealing was such an integral part of the handloading process. I've been loading for nearly two years, and never did it. I guess that I was lucky with my .44 mag brass, have used it many times and no splitting, and no annealing. Of course now I can blame any flyers that I've had on not annealing my brass :-) I am going to anneal the .44's and see if my 50 yd groups improve.

[KirkD]

Lee case trimmer base in a drill. Chuck the case, trim it with the Lee tool, inside and outside debur, spin in front of the waiting torch until the color change Bret mentioned, then dunk in water almost up to the shell holder. Release case, add a fresh one, repeat.
That is exactly how I do it, except I do it at night in the dark and as soon as it starts to glow I dunk it.

[Recluse]

That is exactly how I do it, except I do it at night in the dark and as soon as it starts to glow I dunk it.

You know? I showed this to my wife last night and suggested that, maybe, you know. . .

She rolled her eyes, groaned, and said, "Don't even go there, mister."

I think she just has a dirty mind. :twisted:

:coffee:

[ghh3rd]

You keep that up, and you may actually wind up being a recluse :-)

[KirkD]

Well, I don't want anyone thinking there's anything happening of a questionable nature. I was talking about heating up the case necks of my 45-70 brass. Doing it in the dark helps me see better when the brass starts to glow, since I don't want to overheat it.

[buckshotshoey]

Old thread but need some education on this. I have never had to anneal yet myself, so i have questions. When you heat lead, pour it in a mould, and drop it in water to quench it, it gets harder. Why does brass get softer? I understand that the two metals are non ferrous, and completely different, but why would one get harder with quenching, and the other will not? Would pure copper get harder or softer with quenching?

Second, i watched a you tube vid that showed the ammo manufacturing process. The cases were traveling along on a conveyor through a flame to anneal the case shoulder and neck. Nowhere did it show a quench as part of the process....just air cool. So why quench, assuming the case head is not getting too hot?

Also, I bought 100 45-70 cases from Midway, and nowhere included with the brass mentioned annealing. But I might consider doing it. I have some **** (way too short)Leverevolution brass to practice on.

[country gent]

STarline brass in the black powder calibers is left harder for those who shoot smokless duplication loads. WIth black powder loads these cases may not expand to seal the chamber correctly. Thus the reason for annealing them. I anneal in a lead pot filled with silica sand ( glass makers sand) set to 750* THis pot has a rack for the cases installed in the sand Cases set in a ring of holes with a stop plate to set depth they go into sand. Once pot is up to temp ( verified with lead thermometer) cases go in the ring and once ring is full one case removed and quenched another inserted. This gives about 12-15 sec "soak " time for each case. Annealing is a heat ( temp) and time at temp combination. I anneal every third loading of 38-55, 40-65, 45-70 and 45-90 cases. Annealed cases done corectly will shoot better ( it takes a good rifle to show it) and do seal the chamber much better. Work hardened brass will crack faster but this also depends on how much its sized and expanded larger chambers are harder on brass, SIzing down to small and expanding back up is also hard on brass and work hardens it quicker.

[Half Dog]

People have preferences. I believe the key is consistency and knowing boundary's. I eliminate variables when I can so I use an annealer and I am happy with the results. Just be careful and don't overheat your brass.

[buckshotshoey]

I guess i should have studied just a hair longer. The link posted earlier in this thread answered most of my questions. Ill paste it here again. EXCELLENT info there.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[blackthorn]

Quote “Second, i watched a you tube vid that showed theammo manufacturing process. The cases were traveling along on a conveyorthrough a flame to anneal the case shoulder and neck. Nowhere did it show aquench as part of the process....just air cool. So why quench, assuming thecase head is not getting too hot?” I will take a stab at this question. Ammunition manufactured under carefullycontrolled conditions (i.e. factory) due to the very nature of the processingcan be safely made without the need to quench. On the other hand, at least most of us, are not equipped in a home shop environmentto achieve this level of control. Quenching puts an immediate stop to the annealing process and is,therefore, an excellent safety measure. In addition, there are occasions when we want to achieve more of a “tempering”of the case, as opposed to a true “anneal”. Quenching in this scenario allows us to have some control over how softwe make our brass cases. Many folks heredo not quench and they seem to have little (if any) problems from leaving thebrass to cool on its own. Just dependson your end goal.

[dragon813gt]

Quenching does nothing but allow you to handle the cases immediately. If you are annealing properly there is no chance for to much heat to migrate to the case head. I used to drop the cases into a bucket of water when I annealed them w/ a socket and torch. Now they just drop into the pan that came w/ the Annealeez.