Suggestion for 38 Special Snubnose, 158 LSWC-HP?

[357shooter]

So I just cast up some great hollowpoints with a group-buy mould. (very good looking boolits)

I don't really have a load worked up, or a chronograph handy.

Some time ago I loaded +P of Power Pistol, and it's pretty awesome. Lots of muzzle flash, but I really don't know what kind of velocity they really had.

I've tried some 4227, but I don't think it worked well with the short barrel...

Any suggestions? I do have some 700X, HP-38 and 2400 handy.

Tried an old recipe of 2400, it was so tame it can't have had any velocity to it. Something like 7.8 grains if memory serves me correctly.

Working up something that is close to the Remington FBI load is the goal. Not trying to duplicate the Buffalo Bore loads as I'm guessing that's a tall order with cannister powder.

Guess I rambled on enough, thanks for any and all replys. The bullets are lead with 2% tin added... kinda soft.

[MtGun44]

5.0 gr unique is very accurate and shoots to fixed sights with 158 LHP in my
S&W ultralight J-frame snub.

Hodgdon says you can use up to 3.7 of HP38 under a 158 LSWC.

Bill

[bhn22]

I'd suggest investing in an inexpensive chronograph. I don't think you'll be happy until you know what velocities you're producing.

[AnthonyB]

+1 on 5.0 grain Unique. This is not a practice load in my J-frame snubbies but I have yet to bother one with familiarization rounds. Tony

[357shooter]

I'd suggest investing in an inexpensive chronograph. I don't think you'll be happy until you know what velocities you're producing.You're probably right... time to count the change jar.

I know the Brass Fetcher test results clock the Remington 158 LSWC at an actual 800FPS. I think that gives a good objective. But need the chronograph.

I wish I knew somebody with one. :violin:


They aren't that much on Midway, I'll go and check them out.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I will go out on a limb and say that if you're going to be a serious loader, you MUST invest in a chronograph. Don't buy cheap or you'll simply cry twice when you have to replace cheap. Save the money and buy a decent one the first time around. You'll be amazed at what you learn about loading...

[Bret4207]

Try that 5.0 Unique load. I carry it, among others, in my 38 Bodyguard. It simply works. If you want to try 2400 you might want to look at some of the older manuals from back when 2400 was THE powder for hot loads. Use caution, 2400 has changed a bit, work up slowly and observe. It's a lot easier to stick with a proven load like the 5.0 Unique.

[Char-Gar]

I am another one that thinks Unique is the power you want, and 5 grains is a good stout load without being over the top.

I loaded for thirty five years without a chony and then suddenly everybody had one and told me they were necessary items. So, I bought one. I took it to the range and all it did was confirm what I already knew, velocity wise. I still have it, but it hasn't been to the range in at least 15 years maybe more.

I guess I am old fashioned, but all of these readings don't mean much to me. It is not the SD, but how close the bullets land to each other on the target that determines accuracy. Handloading is not what happens at the fireing point or a few feet down range. It is about bullets on the target. No amount of electronic, digital suppostion will replace that.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta wisdom, one post above.

I'll pile on in favor of the 5.0 grains of Unique in 38 Special as a good fuel/amount for a 158 grain lead SWC-HP. I have shot a BUNCH of metal downrange with that 38 Special recipe and #358477.

[redneckdan]

What revolver are you shooting these in? My carry load is the same boolit over 10.5gr of 2400 Clocks between 950-1000fps depending on the firearm that launches it. My hornady manual lists a max of 10.6 @ 1100 fps. I use these in a 4" model 15. I would not use these in an alloy frame gun and definitely not in a non +p rated gun. I don't shoot a lot of these by any means but they do an excellent job when called upon. Popped a raccoon with one, postmortem revealed a bullet that penetrated about 12" and expanded to the size of a nickel. I cast mine from range scrap with a smidgen of tin for fill out.

[Bret4207]

When I think of some of the loads I put through a Colt Cobra, well, lets just say there's no sense in me buying lotto tickets. But, with the right gun you can develop 38/44 loads with 2400. Just be careful and observant and use your own best judgment. The 38 Special can still be loaded hot if you choose too, right on the heels of standard 357 ammo in the right gun.

But, try that 5.0 Unique and see if it doens't work as good as we claim. I forget what the vaunted "FBI" (Famous But Incompetent) load was, but this will work as well as anything I ever tried. 5.5 gr is a little more of the same but it wasn't worth the bother for me.

[357shooter]

My gun is a Taurus 85UL, 17 oz. pocket carry. It's +P and shoots great.

Sounds like Unique is the favorite, with some encouragement for 2400 too. Going to look up that load in my manual.

Great advice guys. Thanks.

[shooting on a shoestring]

My two cents...use wadcutters in the super short barrels. I have a very high mileage Mod 60 with a 1 & 7/8 barrel. I did lots of chronographing, load development, pushing to the top. Wadcutters consistently won the velocity contest. Turns out its simple. The wad cutter boolit base sits about 1/8 farther back than the SWC or FP or RN, so the boolit base of the wadcutter travels about 1/8 farther to get out of the barrel, and hence gets to accelerate another 1/8 inch worth, or close to 10% more velocity for the same boolit weight.

Also, my Mod 60 is loaded with 358091s over Herco (can't remember the exact charge, but pretty much max, I think its 6 grains), but the load breaks 900 fps out of that tiny 1.875 inch barrel. Works great.

Unique is also fine, and don't sell 2400 short for the short barrel, but I prefer Herco.

[Beerd]

I hate to sound like a parrot, but 5.0 gr of Unique with a 158 gr HPSWC is a good 38 Special load.
..

[smkummer]

I am using 5.2 behind a 158 Lee SWC for almost 900 FPS (chrony) out of a 6 in. barrel Colt officers model match. I have not chronograph my 2 in. detective special with that load but have fired them with noted increased recoil. I can't believe any 2400 load would give better performance than unique out of a 2 in. barrel.

If you are casting the bullet for that load I would drop them as is, hoping for a somewhat softer bullet for the 2 in. barrel.

[357shooter]

Wadcutters are great in a snubnose, and I do carry them. The new mould though is pretty awesome (158 SWC-HP) so I thought pinging the brains here would be helpful. As always, it's extremely helpful.

I'm plan to work up a load with the 2400 I have and to pick up Unique and work that up too.

Thanks guys.

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK, just so you have some other choices, I'm going to suggest something other than 5.0gr Unique (but it is good load).

Try 4.4 grs HP38 (I use W231, but they're the same identical powder). I know Hodgdon currently says 3.7 (as noted above), but different loading manuals have "approved" or "book" loads well up above my load, close to 5.0grs. Plus, I've loaded and shot thousands of those 4.4 loads in 38s with no problems.

Another good powder to check out is Ramshot Silhouette. It has a flash retardent, and is a medium-slow powder like Herco or HS-6, so it should develop very good velocities in the 38 in a +P load, but without as much flash and noise.

Unique is still a very good choice, though.

[DanWalker]

9.5 grains of 2400 is a good one too. Got that one from Ken Waters pet Loads.

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3149.jpg 158 gr. LSWC HP cast from a 50/50 mix of WW-PB, air cooled. This is the Unique load, fired into water, from a 1-7/8" Mod 60. I now use Bullseye, 4.7 grains gets almost 900 fps., and burns a little cleaner.

[35remington]

SOASS, the higher velocity from wadcutters with identical charges isn't from 1/8 inch of extra bore travel, but from being seated deeper in the 38 Special case. Since pistol powders reach their peak pressure almost immediately, deeper seating means less space for the powder gasses to expand, running pressures higher before the bullet starts to move. Higher pressures mean higher velocities. Pistol powders are greatly sensitive to deep bullet seating and respond by increasing pressure with each increase in seating depth.

You could trim 1/8" off your snubbie's barrel just to test your wadcutters and the wadcutter loads would still be going faster with identical powder charges due to the deeper seating.

Pretty well known, and well settled cause as to the difference in velocity. Downside is that for equivalent velocities, the wadcutter load is running at higher pressures due to reduced case volume. Looked at another way, with equivalent pressures, the SWC that seats more shallowly in the case will be going faster. The highest velocity at any given pressure level is obtained with loads that maximize case volume.

If your wadcutter bullets have multiple lube grooves you may seat out one band (assuming your sized bullet diameter is equal to or smaller than the throats) to the same seating depth as a SWC of similar weight and obtain similar velocities with identical charges. This ups case volume and lowers pressure, and optimizes the wadcutter for short barrels. Seating a bullet deeper doesn't improve a pistol's velocity potential given a pressure ceiling.....it reduces it.

A 358091 seated to its normal depth (well into the case) that is achieving 900 fps out of a 60 Smith is Plus P....and then some. You'd be better off seating the bullet out one band and increasing the charge to obtain the same velocity at lesser pressure. Better yet would be to drop the speed to 800-850 fps while also seating the bullet out. This would be easier on the revolver, pressurewise.

[DLCTEX]

+1 on Bullseye.

[zxcvbob]

I use 4.5 grains of Unique for my HD load because that's the max that Alliant listed in their reloading guide for standard-pressure. But I may switch to 5.0 of Unique or 4.5 grains of Bullseye next time I load a batch (of course I'll test a few before I load a whole bunch of 'em) That should be somewhere between SAAMI and CIP pressures, and all my .38's and .357's have good heavy steel frames.

[shooting on a shoestring]

35Remington...We're almost on the same page, except I wasn't comparing with the same powder charges, it was the same boolit weight. And I haven't been able to measure the difference in longer barrels, only the shorty. Yes wadcutters seated flush like 358087, will have more chamber pressure than the same crimped in the middle lube groove.

I get your idea that the 10% difference in velocity is due to higher pressures from reduced case capacity. I don't agree that is the only pararmeter in play. My point is that for the same pressure (less powder for less space under the boolit) the wadcutter in a 1.875" barrel, has about 0.125 inch more travel under acceleration than the same weight SWC. So if both weigh 150 grains, the pressures being the same, the wadcutter accelerates 0.125/1.875*100=6.67% longer distance than the SWC. This is a rough number of course, but measureable over my Oelher 35P. What I haven't been able to see is the same occurance out of my 6 inch Model 19. 0.125/6*100=2% and I can't measure that with my chronograph.

[357shooter]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3149.jpg 158 gr. LSWC HP cast from a 50/50 mix of WW-PB, air cooled. This is the Unique load, fired into water, from a 1-7/8" Mod 60. I now use Bullseye, 4.7 grains gets almost 900 fps., and burns a little cleaner.Picture help, thanks. That 50/50 alloy looks like it mushroomed very nicely.

[35remington]

Well, you'll just have to let me keep believing that compared to the increase in pressure from deeper bullet seating, the extra bit of bullet travel isn't anywhere near as operative. And a increase in seating depth of a 1/8" increment means more to case capacity reduction than 1/8" more bore travel, percentage wise and in multiplier effect......so I'd be more comfortable in saying that the great majority of the difference in velocity is due to seating depth rather than the small change in effective barrel length.

In longer barrel revolvers like my 4" Model 10, I find that deep seating also increases velocity.

For instance, three different bullets, same powder charge, will find the wadcutter going fully 100 fps faster than the RF shape, which has the most bullet out of the case. The SWC is right in the middle, just as you expect, so the smaller percentage of barrel length "gain" does not prevent large differences in velocity from being apparent.

Given a presumption that from 35 to 50 fps per inch of barrel is lost or gained in velocity (this is reasonable given my comparative testing of 1/78 or two inch barrels and four inch in .38 Spl) a 1/8th inch of greater barrel travel would account for a whopping 6 to 7 fps or so of velocity gain. Not much, and very difficult to find with a chronograph.

It's the larger percentage of case capacity reduction and its further disproportionate effect on pressures with fast powders that is the major player.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Picture help, thanks. That 50/50 alloy looks like it mushroomed very nicely.

50/50 pure to WW is what I use for cast HPs too. I often mix in 1% tin, trying to help fill-out, but I don't like adding too much as it can have a slight hardening effect. The tin also makes no difference with the HP pin - that must be kept HOT regardless of how well an alloy "flows."

[357shooter]

50/50 pure to WW is what I use for cast HPs too. I often mix in 1% tin, trying to help fill-out, but I don't like adding too much as it can have a slight hardening effect. The tin also makes no difference with the HP pin - that must be kept HOT regardless of how well an alloy "flows."

Having come into some lead pipe I just cast some 158 HP's. 98% lead 2% tin. Haven't shot any yet, need a place to water test them...

[fecmech]

Having come into some lead pipe I just cast some 158 HP's. 98% lead 2% tin. Haven't shot any yet, need a place to water test them...

Put a piece of cardboard about 2' behind a plastic gallon jug of water and shoot through the gallon jug. Look at the hole in the cardboard and see if it's bigger than caliber, that should tell you if it's expanding or not.

[357shooter]

Good idea, thanks for the tip.

[MtGun44]

My problem with the aluminum-scandium+titanium S&W j-frame was that I could not find
any factory ammo that shot accurately or anywhere near the sights at 15 yds or greater. I had
lots of different loads that shot into 10-14" and was usually 9-18" low at 15-25yds, just darn
near useless.

5.0 Unique and my own 158LHP shot about 2" groups at 15 yds right on the sights. I
had been trying various high bucks factory ammo for a long time and absolutely stopped
looking after verifying the performance with 3 or 4 different groups on diff days.

Bill

[MakeMineA10mm]

Having come into some lead pipe I just cast some 158 HP's. 98% lead 2% tin. Haven't shot any yet, need a place to water test them...

Those will unquestionably expand. The hazard will be not pushing them too fast, or you'll be very likely to get leading. I'd bet you'll get expansion around 700-800fps with that near-pure lead.

I like my 38s and 357s running somewhere between 850 (38s) and 1250 (357s), and in that speed range, the half-and-half WW to pure with a touch of tin, will expand, but not lead. With the top-end velocity (1250fps) load in 357s, I always use a gas check as well, so I'm sure that helps prevent leading too.

Lyman did a lot of testing on cast HPs. With the older binary alloys (1-20 or 1-30 tin to lead), the old-style narrow HP spuds performed well (mushroomed nicely), but with the transition of most casters to WW alloys (or another alloy based on WWs), they found the old spuds lacking. That's why they redesigned the cast HP and came out with the Devastator line. With the harder WW alloy, a more tapered (wider at mouth, narrower at depth) cavity worked better. What was not advertised as well was that they also took into consideration the higher velocities handgunners were shooting at. The Devastators, cast of WW alloy work best around 1100-1400fps. (The auto-caliber Devastators: 9mm, 10mm, and 45 at the lower number, and the 44 at the higher number, which is why it was the only one given a GC base.)

So, part of the question with your dead-soft HPs is what kind of mould, or more-precisely, what type of cavity does your mould have?

[MakeMineA10mm]

By the way, here's a 2-cav. Lyman 358156 mould that I bought from a fellow member here at CB. I had him send it, sight unseen (by me), directly to Buckshot who inspected it and converted one cavity to a HP. I had told him what I wanted, and told me that fellow CB member BEN had just designed nearly the same thing, but with a slightly different tip at the end of the spud. I asked him to make me one with that slight modification, as well as to make one with a Winchester-style concave/convex style shape. The devil, also made me two more pins (cup point and a duplicate of the original Lyman style pin, with a step, because my HP opening is bigger than an original Lyman), because he knew I was an experimenter! Here's his outstanding work:

Winchester cavity:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=448

Modified BEN cavity:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=445

Traditional Lyman cavity:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=446

Buckshot's Cup Point:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=447

[MGySgt]

5.0 gr unique under a 150+ SWC is right at 19,000 psi - mild +P pressure.

I would be real curious to see actual Chrongraph results of that load out of a 2 in snubbie.

According to Quick load you will get right at 900 FPS in a 4 inch with that load. Drop that back to a 2 in and you drop 200 FPS or more.

I will find out as I just bought the Ruger LCR. I really like it. But so does my wife - may need a second one!

[357shooter]

5.0 gr unique under a 150+ SWC is right at 19,000 psi - mild +P pressure.

I would be real curious to see actual Chrongraph results of that load out of a 2 in snubbie.

According to Quick load you will get right at 900 FPS in a 4 inch with that load. Drop that back to a 2 in and you drop 200 FPS or more.

I will find out as I just bought the Ruger LCR. I really like it. But so does my wife - may need a second one!

Posting your chrono results would be very interesting.

[MGySgt]

I currently have the Lyman 358477, Zerro 148 HBWC, a few Lee 358 - 158RF (I think that is what the Lee is).

Have to go up north on Sat, Grand Kids soccer, I will stop on the way home and get some of the Hornady swagged bullets.

Start working on the loads Sat night, Shoot some of them Sunday (have a range in my back yeard).

Don't know when I will break out the Chronogragh.

[357shooter]

Range in the back yard, nice.

[ktw]

Posting your chrono results would be very interesting.

I was at the range today and ran some of the Mihec 359640-HP through a S&W Model 15 (38 special, 4" bbl). All air cooled wheelweights and CCI 500 primers.

4.8 gr Unique: 868 fps
5.0 gr Unique: 878 fps
5.2 gr Unique: 906 fps

9.0 2400: 861 fps
10.0 2400: 935 fps

3.0 Bullseye: 662 fps
3.3 Bullseye: 727 fps
3.6 Bullseye: 793 fps
3.9 Bullseye: 811 fps


5.0-5.2 Unique, 9.0 2400 and 3.6-3.9 Bullseye all gave good results on the target. I plan to go with 3.9 Bullseye just because I have quite a bit of it on hand but keep the 5.0 Unique and 9.0 2400 loads in mind in the event I run out someday.

-ktw

[MGySgt]

KTW - those velocities run right about what Quick Load list's for a 4inch and 150ish SWC style.

Now just to Chrono them out of a 2 inch.

[357shooter]

Just speculation, I'll put a cup of coffee on the snubby being 120FPS less...

If I were a bettin' man that is.

[MGySgt]

Just speculation, I'll put a cup of coffee on the snubby being 120FPS less...

If I were a bettin' man that is.


200 less - if I was a bettin man.

I will shoot them accross with a 6in, 4in and 2in.

[ddixie884]

Good info, thanx

[fecmech]

I have shot the 358429 out of my 6" k-38 and a S&W model 36 2". The first load 10.5/2400 clocks 1013 fps in the 6" and 804 fps in the 2". The second load 11.3/h110 is 1064 fps and out of the 2" it is 868 fps. IMO in order to break 800 fps out of a J frame snubby you will have to go right to the top of +P loads with Unique,Bullseye or 231.

[357shooter]

200 less - if I was a bettin man.

I will shoot them accross with a 6in, 4in and 2in.

So the 120 is 4 inch drop off to 2 inch.

6 inch to 2 is 200+ I think. Fecmech just posted those results.

Knowing 4 inch would be helpful too.

[Larry Gibson]

+1 for the 4.7 gr Bullseye .38 Special load for use in a snubbie.

I use the 358156 cast of almost pure lead, lubed with Javelina and a Hornady GC. I HP the loaded rounds with a Forster 1/8" HP tool to the depth of the 1st driving band. Expansion and velocity out of a 1 7/8" M36, a 2" M10 or a 2 1/2" M19 equals that of Winchester and Federals 150 gr HP Lead "FBI" load. A 358477 works as well bt just not quite as accurate....close enough for snubbie range though.

It takes 5.2 - 5.3 (depending on powder lot) gr Unique wth the 150 gr 358477 to equal the velocity of the Winchester or Fedearal load in a 4 or 5" M15. Years back that was the "+P" load for 150 gr lead bullets in the .38 Special. It's been dumbed down since. I prefer the 4.7 gr load in snubbies, especially the M36s.

Larry Gibson

[mack1]

Unique is good but I have loaded thousands of light 38sp rounds with 3.5gr of 700x. Must be cautious when using a powder measure as it is a fluffy powder. This has been a good target load for me. Please cheack load data before loading I found the load in an IMR book I think it is on hogdons website.

[MGySgt]

Ran some Chrongraph tests today and some of these are a real shocker; 3 different guns and 4 loads.

Load 1 358477 150Gr SWC - 5gr Unique
Load 2 Star 148gr HBWC, 4.1gr Unique
Load 3 Hornady Critial Defense, 110 gr FTX
Load 4 Agulia 148gr WC

Pistol 1 S&W M-28, 6 in
Pistol 2 Ruger Security Six 4 in
Pistol 3 Ruger LCR 1.85 in


Loads Load 1 Load 2 Load 3 Load 4
Pistol 1 887 880 1031 680

Pistol 2 891 864 1011 682

Pistol 3 800 798 924 611


Load 1 - The 150 gr 358477 only lost 100 FPS from the 6 in to the 1.85in. The 4 in actually beat the 6 in in velocity. Same with load 4.

I am going to repeat the test only next time with hand loads only. I want to see what Bullseye will do - I think there will be less muzzell flash with BE. and I think I will only use the 4 in and the snubbie.

A full wad cutter at 800FPS is really nothing to sneeze at for a defense round.

Of course if I have Buckshot HP one of my 358477 SC moulds - that might be real interesting too with some 30/1 or 40/1.

If I were to repeat the test tomorrow - the results could be different.
You test with your guns and the results could be different.

But I think it is safe to say that you can SAFELY get 800 FPS out of a snubbie with a 150ish SWC or a WC.

I know I am going to order some Hornady HBWC (no one local seems to have them any more).

Drew

[357shooter]

Those are very interesting. The velocity dropoff is not that bad. The advice here to use Unique looks like great advice. It performs really well.

The Remingont FBI load RS3812 (I may not remember correctly) chorons at 800FPS. I'm thinking matching that is a good thing.

Great job testing, great results. Nothing like real data to chew on!

[MakeMineA10mm]

Drew,
Thank you for sharing your results. They are interesting, but I wasn't that surprised. I have experienced and it is well documented by others that longer barrels don't always automatically equal higher velocities.

What does interest me is the super-slow performance of the Aguila WC load. That's pretty pitiful, although I acknowledge it is a target load, not a defense load.

You will not regret having Buckshot HP that 477 mould. He did a 156 for me. It's a two-cavity, and he did one cavity, so now I can cast both solid-noses and HPs at the same time. Awesome flexibility, and to make it even more flexible, he made up four separate pins for me. (I'm sure you saw the pics on page two, above.) I hope to get some gelatin testing done with various 38 loads using the different HP pins this fall. (If all goes well...)

[fecmech]

While paging through my Lyman manual on the "throne" this morning I noticed a note I had made. I shoot a 158 RN (H&G #39) a lot and had chrongraphed the load of 4.9/231. The load showed 934 fps through the 6" and 791 fps through the Model 36 1 7/8" bbl. That is a std press load according to Lyman and 5.3/231 is +P. As I mentioned in a previous post 800 fps should be fairly easy using Lyman +P data for Bullseye,231,or Unique.

[Shakey Jakey]

Just shot my LCR over the chrono with 148 gr Lee tl wadcutters pushed by 3.8 gr of red dot and got consistant high 700's with that load. My speer #10 says I can go up to 4.3 grains for 964 fps. (they shot from a longer barrel)

[357shooter]

That's a very nice self defense load. Wadcutters work very well, nice load too.

How are you liking the LCR? I've shot one at the range, Ruger did good with it. The small cylinder and great trigger are great features.

[Shakey Jakey]

I like it a lot. Will work up loads with red dot and unique. I have both the 148 tl and the 158 flat nose moulds to work with. The trigger is excellent, the more I shoot it the more I like it.

[zxcvbob]

Just shot my LCR over the chrono with 148 gr Lee tl wadcutters pushed by 3.8 gr of red dot and got consistant high 700's with that load. My speer #10 says I can go up to 4.3 grains for 964 fps. (they shot from a longer barrel)

Those are .357 Magnum loads, right? (if you are loading Red Dot wadcutters that high in .38 brass, they are *much* higher pressure than you think)

[bhn22]

Lyman shows 4.2 gr of Red Dot as max, for a 148 WC in a 38 Spl case. I checked 3 different manuals & they're all within .1 gr of each other.

[zxcvbob]

Lyman shows 4.2 gr of Red Dot as max, for a 148 WC in a 38 Spl case. I checked 3 different manuals & they're all within .1 gr of each other.

Alliant load book says 2.5 is max for Red Dot with 148 grain WC's, at 15500 psi. 2.3 grains is a .38 target load.

4.6 grains is a max .357 Magnum load, at 33600 psi (and a longer OAL)

[MakeMineA10mm]

They're either making Red Dot a LOT faster-burning than they used to, OR Alliant made their data using a fast-burning lot of Red Dot. I know they "improved" Red Dot to make it cleaner burning a few years ago, but alledgedly they didn't mess with the burn rate.

I don't have a load book in front of me, but those recently-recommended loads seem awfully low to me. I remember loading Red Dot with 3.0grs for 38 target loads a long time ago, and that was far below max.

Something's definitely fishy with the data vs. the pressure over time.

[zxcvbob]

The new data (2.5) matches what QuickLOAD calculates. I have some old Hercules load books around here somewhere. If I can find them I'll compare with what they say.

4.0 grains of Red Dot is a good load with 125 grain cast boolits in .38 Special.

[Rodfac]

I like 4.5 gr of either HP38 or Win 231; behind any quality 158 gr LSWC. I use Winchester Sm Pistol primers exclusively and either R-P or Winchester brass.

This load chrono's at 759 fps from a 1-7/8" barreled S&W M-637 Airweight. Expansion at this low velocity is minimal, but it's an accurate practice load of +P pressure.

HTH's Rodfac

[Shakey Jakey]

Remember that hbwc and wc are different animals. 4.3 is a 38 special load not 357 mag. The same speer #10 shows a max load with a hb to be only 3.0 of red dot. Maybe the powder companys dont want to take a chance on every reloader knowing the difference between a HBWC and a WC. The Lee manual doesnt differentiate and only lists the lower numbers. * I just checked Alliants on line loading manual and they list 3.0 is a max load for a HBWC with no listing for the solid base. *

[zxcvbob]

4.3 is a 38 special load not 357 mag. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-shocked003.gif
You're putting .357 Magnum loads in .38 Special brass, you just don't know it. Unless you mean 148 grain SWC's, but even then it's a pretty hot load.

Red Dot is an extremely fast-burning powder. Similar to Clays. It's actually faster than Bullseye; Bullseye edges it out on the "relative quickness" chart because BE has more energy per gram (with about twice as much nitroglycerin.)

[Shakey Jakey]

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-shocked003.gif
You're putting .357 Magnum loads in .38 Special brass, you just don't know it. Unless you mean 148 grain SWC's, but even then it's a pretty hot load.

Red Dot is an extremely fast-burning powder. Similar to Clays. It's actually faster than Bullseye; Bullseye edges it out on the "relative quickness" chart because BE has more energy per gram (with about twice as much nitroglycerin.)OK, you win, I cant read.

[35remington]

Firing the 5.0 Unique load out of a two inch Rossi revolver (actually about 2.070" barrel according to my caliper, and discounting any muzzle chamfer) I get right around 850 fps with a Lee TL 158 SWC. Seating depth of the various 158 SWC's also influences the velocity obtained.....the deeper the seating, the faster the bullet, all else being the same.

Out of a four inch Model 10 it gets more like 960 fps. Powerful either way.

[rintinglen]

Somethin rotten in Denmark with the red dot.
Late 70's early 80's, I shot 32 pounds of Red Dot out of various 38s and 357's 4 grains at a time with 148 grain cast wadcutters with no sign of excess pessure, undue wear or extreme recoil. It was a nice, accurate load that ran about 850 fps from a 4 inch Python, the only time it as ever chronographed by me. Speer manuals 8, 9 and 10 all listed 4.2 grains as top end, Lyman's 47 and 2nd edition Pistol and revolver both list 4.2 grains top end, with 16,300 CUP. My newer manuals are out in the shed, but I'd bet a yankee Dollar that they are about the same. My Hornady doesn't list a solid base wadcutter, but they list a top end of 3.9 grains with a 158 Grain bullet.
I have the current Alliant download, and it does recommend a top end of 3.8 for a plus P load, but under their cowboy lods, they list 4.5 grains for a 140 grain Hornady FP. they do not list pressure data.

Does anyone know if or when they changed the formula?

[Char-Gar]

In a snub, bullet expansion is iffy and a slender reed upon which to support your life. I would go for meplat, the bigger the better. The best would be a solid base wadcutter pushed to 850 fps or thereabouts. This can be done with Bullseye, 231 and several other powders, But remember the deep seating of the wadcutter cuts the powder capacity and boosts pressures, so loads for a SWC or RN can't be transposed.

[BD]

I'm with charger. I have no interest in a hollow point for my snubbie. I'm loading a 160 grain WFN over enough powder to get 900 fps in my +P rated j frame. In my case it's 4.2 grains of HPC-18. I'm shooting at anatomy thats buried below the surface and under clothing most times. I want to hit POA and penetrate in as straight a line as possible to break the parts I'm shooting at.

BD

[9.3X62AL]

Again--lotta wisdom in Chargar's most recent post. As usual.

I cannot run a J-frame S&W in my big paws. Even aftermarket grips aren't much help. A Colt DS is enough bigger to be usable, but it does shift about under recoil more than I like. A few months ago I scored a Model 19 x 2.5", and THAT CRITTER I can SHOOT. It can contain those nice, long 357 cases, too. :)

This is going a little off-topic, but I have prior convictions for such offenses--in fact, I'm a 3-strikes candidate in that venue. So, here goes. I dragged the chronograph out to a recent range day, along with the Model 19 snub and some of my carry rounds that got rotated out of usage after 6 months in the 686 x 4". These are W-W 158 grain JHP, which achieve about 1210-1225 FPS from the 4" barrel of the 686. 25 rounds later over the clock, the average velocity was 1080 FPS. A couple rounds went 1100+ (barely), and a few others dropped down to the 1050 level. The shorter barrel gave larger SD than the 4" or 6" barrels have given me over the years with this load.

I also ran my practice reloads that duplicate factory performance (Lyman #358156 over either 13.5 x 2400 or 14.5 x 296) and both loads closely parallelled the factory loads in this revolver as well. The only real difference was the flame signatures from the short barrel were CONSIDERABLY larger than those produced by the factory fodder. At 3-4 yards, an attacker would have his eyebrows singed as well as his Brian Housing Group violated. Gilding the lily, that.

[Char-Gar]

9.3 ... I don't have big hands, but find the round butt J frame impossible to shoot well. There is just not enough distance between the back of the grip and the trigger. The discontinued square butt version of J frame has just enough extra distance to change the whole dynamic and make it shootable for me. I have had several J frames and always hunt up the older square butt all steel versions.

The only J frame I own any more, is a 3" all steel Chief's Special. I found it NIB in a gun store a few years back and snatched it up. That extra inch of barrel length is a major help with sight radius and velocity. A 3 inch 38 Special is closer in velocity to a 4 inch pistol than a 2 inch pistol.

The the real cream of the crop is the Colt Detective Special with a 3 inch barrel. That pistol will shoot like a service revolver and I am not about to part with mine.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Somethin rotten in Denmark with the red dot.
Late 70's early 80's, I shot 32 pounds of Red Dot out of various 38s and 357's 4 grains at a time with 148 grain cast wadcutters with no sign of excess pessure, undue wear or extreme recoil. It was a nice, accurate load that ran about 850 fps from a 4 inch Python, the only time it as ever chronographed by me. Speer manuals 8, 9 and 10 all listed 4.2 grains as top end, Lyman's 47 and 2nd edition Pistol and revolver both list 4.2 grains top end, with 16,300 CUP. My newer manuals are out in the shed, but I'd bet a yankee Dollar that they are about the same. My Hornady doesn't list a solid base wadcutter, but they list a top end of 3.9 grains with a 158 Grain bullet.
I have the current Alliant download, and it does recommend a top end of 3.8 for a plus P load, but under their cowboy lods, they list 4.5 grains for a 140 grain Hornady FP. they do not list pressure data.

Does anyone know if or when they changed the formula?

Glen,
They changed it several years ago, as they made it (along with all of their traditional flake powders, one at a time) "cleaner burning". This started because VihtaVouri was making a HUGE marketing issue out of how clean their powders burned... Alliant brought out "Promo" at about the same time, and word is that it is the OLD FORMULA for Red Dot.

Makes me wonder what the load data for PROMO says for 148gr WCs in the 38 Spl. these days...??? :?: :?:

[BD]

I never could shoot those little factory wood grips on a J frame either. I had to put Hogues on my M36 to make it shoot well for me. When the M36 wore out I went shopping and found a new 442 that had factory rubbers on it that fit me just fine out of the box.
BD

[35remington]

Lee's Tumble Lube 148 wadcutter is probably the flattest of the flat when it comes to meplat.....it's very nearly full caliber, with no "button nose" or anything else save a flat that's as broad as an Arizona mesa.

It is possible to use the tumble lube grooves as a crimp groove and seat this wadcutter out so its base is the same depth in the case, or even shallower, than a 158 SWC. Crimping in the fourth groove is shallower in terms of seating depth than the 158 SWC depending upon which one we're comparing it to; the third groove is about the same seating depth with the fifth groove being very noticeably less seating depth than a 158 SWC. There is no benefit to seating lower than the fifth groove as this is the halfway point on the wadcutter; less seating depth means too little case grip. Case space starts to get excessive as well.

The bullet must be sized to the cylinder throat diameter or a little smaller to chamber correctly but this is no great cross to bear. In so doing it is possible to boost the velocity of the wadcutter bullet while maintaining relatively low pressures, even in a two inch that's not rated for Plus P.

This is the "carry around" load in my snubbie for whatever. Shoots pretty well too.