Which one is better?

[Arisaka99]

Considering getting either a Garand, an M1 carbine, or a M14. Which one is the easiest to take care of and most fun to shoot, and get acc. parts for. Also, which one is easiest to reload and/or cast for. I am really loving the .30 carbines!! Any advice from guys that own or have owned one would be appreciated!!

[sundog]

I've had Garands and carbines. Had M14s in the Army. Fun is right. All of them. If I were going to buy something though, I'd opt for a good quality M1A. Best accuracy, magazine fed, parts are available, more after market custom stuff.

[madsenshooter]

For accuracy, the M14 is certainly the best of the 3. With the carbine, loading is cheap, but range is limited. I don't think you should limit yourself to one, get one of each and do your own comparison!

[mooman76]

Big difference between the 2 both in gun and cartridge. I'd love to get a M1a in fact it is on my list but out of my price range for now. The M1c is a fun little plinker but not usually too accurate but cheap to load. I can't decide, get them both!

[Arisaka99]

Well mom said no more guns till I can buy them myself!!! I'd like to have one of each though!!! But I'd like to have one of each.

[home in oz]

Save up for the M1A.

Shot mil M-14s alot, and they are sweet.

[Arisaka99]

How much do they usually run? I saw an M1c in a local GS for like 450 or 500, is that over priced?

[Uncle Grinch]

As far as cost, the most economical is problably the Garand. Even then they can be very expensive, ie... $700+ (at least for me).

Look at www.odcmp.com (http://www.odcmp.com) to see if you meet their requirements to purchase. A rack or service grade will get you started.

[jimb16]

Any of the 3 fit your qualifications. All are fun to shoot, easy to maintain and have great parts availability. Personally I prefer the carbine, but I also have the garands. Whichever appeals to you the most would be the best choice.

[Arisaka99]

Idk, I like the knockdown of the 30-06, but like the compactness of the m1c

[ilcop22]

Idk, I like the knockdown of the 30-06, but like the compactness of the m1c

What do you intend to use the rifle for?

[Arisaka99]

IDK, I may use it for hunting or anything that may arise???

[OBIII]

Having spent some time in the Marine Corps, I would vote for the M-14. Easy to care for, easy to shoot, very very accurate. That being said, if I could not afford or find an M-14, I would opt for the M1 Garand. Again, accurate, reliable, easy to take care of. My third choice would be the Carbine, only due to it's lower power and range.

[WineMan]

Arisaka99,

Maybe there is a compromise rifle that meets all of your criteria and has the best of all of the three you mentioned: Ruger Mini 14 or Mini 30. While not really a "Military" rifle it is a close copy and a modern well engineered and thoroughly developed weapon.

In my opinion, it is light like the Carbine. It has a hard hitting round in either 223 Remington (5.56 Nato) or 7.62x39 Soviet, both with plenty of surplus ammo available. It will have low recoil and the 223 is accurate to 600 yards the 7.62 to about to 300. Neither round will smack as hard as a 308 or 30-06 at any range but life is about compromise and getting everything in one package is almost impossible. Reloading either will not break the bank.

It has a detachable high capacity magazine like the Carbine or M1A (M14). It is about the price of an M1 Garand. It can be easily scoped. It has a wealth of aftermarket accessories. The newest versions are more accurate than the first rifles. You can get them with a synthetic stock and stainless steel for the "What if..." scenario.

I have both the Garand and M1 Carbine, the Carbine since I was your age. I love them both and they are significant part of our history. They are fun to own and shoot. Whatever you get enjoy it and be responsible. All the best!

Wineman

[mooman76]

The M1c is a little underpowered for hunting except close up with small to med size game. You mentioned $450 to 500 at gunshows, is that over priced? In my opinion yes for what you get but that's what they are going for and more. I kind of go with what Wineman said. Look for a good used mini 14 or 30. They are built somewhat the same and more acurate. Shoot basically the same too or you could pick up for a few $ more an AR style gun. The SKS is also fun to shoot and fairly cheap. You could hunt with it, even deer. M14 gonna cost quite abit even if you can find one but I plan on getting one or a M1a the civilian copy when I can afford it.

[Multigunner]

Can't beat a good Garand, it gives up nothing in the accuracy or handling departments.
Tests run on fast target aquisition have shown the Garand superior to any Carbine or Assault rifle in putting rounds onto moving targets in jungle trail type shooting.
Its balance far outweighs it weight in bringing the sights to bear quickly.

I've plinked 12 oz water bottles set at widely spaced spots in brush at 200 yards with the Garand 8 out of 8 and firing as quickly as the sight came to bear. Can't do that with a Carbine.
A lighter rifle wouldn't have been steady enough for that kind of shooting even if it could have held its rounds tight at that range.

Also the .30-06 fits the "you can run but you can't hide" saying down pat. You'd be hard pressed to find a tree thick enough that the 06 couldn't zip right through with plenty of lethality left on the otherside.
Running won't do much good either for that matter.

The M14/M1a1 just never seemed to balance right for me, not as easy to carry either.
I don't think M14 receivers were ever as well made as the Garand, and the aftermarket receivers have a spotty reputation.

[Wayne Smith]

After saying Chris is 15, let me also say that he is 6'2" and 200+lbs. He could handle any of them with no problem. He has access to my collection and he knows it. However, the only autos I have are .22's and pistols. Ergo, his questions. Realize when you answer him you are teaching a very teachable young man. He doesn't know a whole lot yet but he is catching on fast and learning fast. We just spent half the afternoon upstairs talking guns.

A good friend of ours has a Garand. I don't know anyone in the area that has an M14, but someone probably does. Another good friend of ours has an M1 Carbine. With a little patience and persuasion, Chris, you can get to shoot at least two of the three and spend no money!!

[Arisaka99]

Well, thats a good trade, I know who has the garand, but who has the M1c?

[scb]

If your looking to buy one I'd caution you about US made Korean imported m1's (carbines or Garands). There may be some good ones but there are a lot that are worn out junk. Be careful.

[WineMan]

I would second the "Buyer Beware" of Garands and M1 Carbines. Both of mine are DCM and CMP purchases. The quality was excellent, the bores smooth and shiny and the wood with just a few blemishes. They both operate flawlessly. A friend has a Garand (Blue Sky) and a Underwood Carbine from gun show purchases. The Garand is pretty much worn out but it had a striking tiger striped stock. The Carbine malfunctions often but it may just need a good tear down and cleaning.

Since you seem to have a built in "rental" program you will have the opportunity to evaluate each one and then make a decision. Over the years there have been many "I have to have it now" rifles that did not get that much more expensive a year or two later and languish in the safe or get sold off for not much profit. Get as much experience with each one that you can, and when the penny jar is full you will be much better off.

I have had a lot of fun and learned a lot lately at CMP Garand/Vintage Bolt matches. I know your Arisaka is sporterized but you may be able to compete in an "Open" class depending on the match director if it still has the iron sights.

Wineman

[mac1911]

for what the going price of the military surplus rifles M1 vs carbines are going for I liek the M1 better. I see a few guys with the IMI and current production carbines,M1As and Garands and some are a little unhappy for how much they paid compared to what they got.
I think the best bet is to order a service grade garand from the CMP right now its 619.00 delivered. Purchase a few tins of ammo and get the hook set

[corvette8n]

The CMP also gives you a nice certificate and book with the Garand or carbine.
The carbine is a garbage disposal, fill the mags shoot them up and start over again,
just like shooting a .22.
Garand is a little heavy to hunt with but would do well with most any game.

[Jack Stanley]

Well, thats a good trade, I know who has the garand, but who has the M1c?

I have only seen a few M1C models around and if it had paperwork showing it was real not a put-together item they generally go for a bit more than twenty-five hundred bucks . I don't think the M1D model is much cheaper and for that kind of money one could really consider the LRB "M14" type that has a good scope ring base forged into the reciever .

A nice Garand however can still be had for less than a thousand bucks . I had a good one on my table at the last show for just over six hundred bucks but the "experts" turned their collective noses up because it wasn't "all original" . That's OK with me , none of them had the money to pay for a good wartime rebuild let alone something "original" .:lol: A tuned Garand is really quite a magnificent piece to behold in the hands of one who can use a thirty caliber rifle well . The Garand has been very good to me for several years I have one in .308 and another in '06 and both work very well .

Jack

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Just be mindful that the Mil. Spec. M1A is engineered for Mil Spec ammo. If you handload you can damage it by pushing the envelope. I've heard some off the shelf .308 Hunting Ammo can do damage but I haven't seen it.

top

[mac1911]

I believe its the gas port preasure thats the problem when useing other than mil spec ammo.
A slow powder will produce a high port preasure putting more force on the system

[Jack Stanley]

Mac , I think you're right . The ammo labeled as "light magnum" and reload stuff with powders slower than about IMR 4064 are about the slowest you'd want to use with jacketed bullets . There is an adjustable gas plug for both the Garand and the M14 type that may stretch that a little , I haven't tried it in either one though .

Jack

[Linstrum]

If informal strictly-for-fun-easy-shooting is the goal, then for me the little .30 caliber US Carbine is the most fun and economical to shoot as well as the easiest take care of. It doesn't cost a lot to shoot and I have never had a problem using the Lee .309 113 grain “soup can” cast boolit with powders ranging from Unique to H110. Unique can be a bit dirty so I prefer 2400 or H110. Besides a 1942-dated .30 US Carbine made by Underwood Typewriter, I also own three 1944 M1 Garands and a Springfield Armory, Inc, M1A National Match.

Other than its action being based on John. C. Garand's design, the M1 Carbine is not at all close to the M1/M14/M1A rifles, especially in performance. The little M1 carbine simply bears a resemblance to the M1 Garand and is not in the same league as the M1 Garand/M14/M1A at all. I don't consider the little low-powered and marginally accurate M1 carbine to be all that easily compared to the M1 and M14/M1A rifles, to me it is kind of like asking which one is the easiest to take care of and most fun to shoot; a .22 rimfire Remington Nylon 66, or the 5.56 NATO-chambered Colt AR15 or Ruger Mini-14. Don't forget that the M1 carbine shoots what is basically a small low-powered hand gun cartridge based on the .32 Auto pistol cartridge, while the M1 and M14/M1A are real honest to goodness high powered rifles that shoot either the .30-06 or 7.62 NATO/.308 Win cartridges (I consider the .30-06 to be the start of the .30 caliber magnum rifle cartridges. The 7.62 NATO is for the most part interchangeable with the .308 Winchester). Some M1A rifles from Springfield Armory, Inc, are chambered in the .243 Winchester cartridge. Springfield Armory, Incorporated, is a private company and not the original U.S. Government facility that made small arms for the military. As has already been mentioned, the "M1C" is not the M1 Carbine, an original M1C is a rare and valuable M1 Garand rifle variant like the M1D, and like the M1D was used as a sniper rifle.

If you can, get a .30 US Carbine, M1, M14/M1A, and a later (accurate) model Ruger Mini 14. You don't have to get them all on the same day, I started in 1965 with my carbine and I'm looking for another Ruger Mini 14 right now.


rl841

[madsenshooter]

I have only seen a few M1C models around and if it had paperwork showing it was real not a put-together item they generally go for a bit more than twenty-five hundred bucks . I don't think the M1D model is much cheaper and for that kind of money one could really consider the LRB "M14" type that has a good scope ring base forged into the reciever .

A nice Garand however can still be had for less than a thousand bucks . I had a good one on my table at the last show for just over six hundred bucks but the "experts" turned their collective noses up because it wasn't "all original" . That's OK with me , none of them had the money to pay for a good wartime rebuild let alone something "original" .:lol: A tuned Garand is really quite a magnificent piece to behold in the hands of one who can use a thirty caliber rifle well . The Garand has been very good to me for several years I have one in .308 and another in '06 and both work very well .

Jack

Hey Jack, when they were talking M1c, that was an abbreviation for carbine! I knew somebody would think otherwise!

[Jack Stanley]

Opps !! [smilie=l:After fooling with Garands for so long the Carbine barely registers on the radar for me . The M1C is one ya don't see every day and I think I've seen only one M1D at the range . To hear about someone gonna get one is kinda exciting . Carbines on the other hand ........ it was only exciting when brother brought out his C&R M2 carbine .

Jack

[sqlbullet]

How much do they usually run? I saw an M1c in a local GS for like 450 or 500, is that over priced?


I believe in the above you intended "M1c" to mean M1 Carbine. Be aware that M1C is actually a scoped M1 Garand variant with the receiver drilled and tapped for the scope mount. The M1D Garand variant is the more common scoped version.

If the M1c you saw was a M1C Garand, then by all means buy it. Or tell me where it is and I will buy it. You could easily resell it for enought to buy an M1 Carbine, a Service Grade Garand and an M1A, and have lots of cash left over for ammo. There is an M1C on gunbroker right now for $10,000.

[Arisaka99]

No, sorry to misconstrue, but I meant Carbine when I said M1C.

[DIRT Farmer]

Chris I have a M1 carbine, M1 Garand in 308, M1A and a Mini 14 that I carried as a patrol rifle. I enjoy shooting all of them but hate chasing brass so I generaly shoot bolt guns if shooting modern. But you know me I would rather shoot flint so I don't have to reload brass.

[Multigunner]

The Carbine malfunctions often but it may just need a good tear down and cleaning.



Some later model M1 Carbines have a little bump on the right hand locking surfaces.
The bump was added to give enough resistence to prevent the bolt from cycling by intertia if dropped butt down or slung butt down by a soldier who had to jump down from a truck or back of an armored vehicle. Probably disembarking from a helicopter in later years.
There were a few such AD with early M1 Carbines.
The same problem appeared with the Soviet PPSH, MP40, and STEN Guns. Those used either a bolt handle latch or a cut out in the bolt handle slot to lock the bolts.
I don't think the Garands ever exibited this problem, probably too much drag from the cartridges in the clip for this to happened when the rifle was loaded.

Anyway I store owner brought by a Carbine that had been returned several times.
It jammed at least once every six rounds, the bolt jammed so tight you had to kick the handle with your heel to open it.

I test fired it with ammo he supplied and the first clue was one in six fiired cases was .006 longer than the rest.
Those cases when fired filled out the chamber with no room for locking lug rebound that usually slightly loosens the case and relieves pressure on the bolt face.
Instead the expanded case forced the bolt face back hard enough that the lug couldn't turn freely sliding over the tiny nib.

I stoned the right hand lug and recess just enough to smooth the top of the nib, and therafter it functioned perfectly.

This condition is hard to spot, if I had not read of the early ADs and the fix I'd never have figured it out.
If all the ammo was exactly on the money dimension wise the problem would not have shown up at all.

PS
The nibs are nearly dead center of the surfaces, and on the right hand side only.

[Arisaka99]

Alan, yeah we know you are a BP shooter through and through!! ;P I thought about getting a mini 14, but they are so expensive!!

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Mac , I think you're right . The ammo labeled as "light magnum" and reload stuff with powders slower than about IMR 4064 are about the slowest you'd want to use with jacketed bullets . There is an adjustable gas plug for both the Garand and the M14 type that may stretch that a little , I haven't tried it in either one though .

Jack

Don't mean to Hi-jack the thread but, I was curious if you have any idea where the threshold might be. I've never handloaded for mine.

[koehn,jim]

The question of which is as much about what you like and can afford as anything else. I have all four of the weapons,M1 m1a m1 carbine and mini 14. They all have different good and bad points. I shoot jacketed in The mini because it is cheap to shoot about what good reloads are without the hassel. Those 223 bullets are so small. But if I were starting out I would get a nice original m1 Garand and run cast bullets thru it. The carbine has a different gas system and does foul faster than the Garand or M1a. Just my thoughts but there is a reason that the m1 has been around since 1938

[Arisaka99]

ok, What is the CMP? You guys keep mentioning the Cmp, but I have no idea what you are tlking about!! Clarification would be appreciated!! ;)

[spqrzilla]

"M1c" is not a valid way to describe the M1 Carbine because "M1C" was a version of the Garand.

As for the CMP, Civilian Marksmanship Program, the link was supplied above:

http://www.odcmp.com/

It is a program that sells surplus Garands to those who qualify.

[Arisaka99]

Where do you go to find out how to qualify for the cmp? I went to the link, but I saw nothing about how to qualify?

[Snapping Twig]

Don't mean to Hi-jack the thread but, I was curious if you have any idea where the threshold might be. I've never handloaded for mine.

Don't own an M1, M14, Carbine, never have. Not that I didn't want to, just availability and money haven't intersected.

I do have a Mini 30 and a Rem 740 and handload and cast since 83.

To answer your question, I ran into this when reloading for the 740 and researched a bit to find out why my slow powder, accurate and hard hitting bolt gun rounds were downright scary in the 740. Seemed the timing went all to hell and the bolt was doing bad things when I fired slow powder rounds.

Any powder slower than 4064 creates a pressure spike, not only that, but at the wrong time. It's my understanding that in a Garrand, this leads to damage to the op rod. Not having one, I can't verify this, but I believe it to be true.

4064 gives me good function in the 740. The action is similar with an op rod and rotating bolt, so the parallel makes sense to me.

Hope this helps.

BTW, an older Mini 14 or 30 can be made VERY accurate by properly torquing the gas block bolts. This is a no cost solution to a very real issue. Mine is the old 189 series with the .308 bore and it is 2" accurate at 100 yards if I do my part. Mine likes 150g boolits. :)

[Uncle Grinch]

Where do you go to find out how to qualify for the cmp? I went to the link, but I saw nothing about how to qualify?

You need to look through the CMP pages. Here is a shortcut to the info. Read it and see if you qualify....

http://www.odcmp.com/Forms/1orderform.pdf

[Arisaka99]

Well, Im sure it looks nice, but I can't view pdf's on my computer, its ancient, and I dont have an updated version of adobe. :) it sucks, because sometimes, you need to look at sumtin and you cant, well, I guess that means I'll have to save my gun money and get a laptop. Oh darn!! :groner:

[high standard 40]

Well, Im sure it looks nice, but I can't view pdf's on my computer, its ancient, and I dont have an updated version of adobe. :) it sucks, because sometimes, you need to look at sumtin and you cant, well, I guess that means I'll have to save my gun money and get a laptop. Oh darn!! :groner:

Adobe Acrobat Reader is a free download from the Adobe website. It allows you to open pdf files.

[Arisaka99]

Thanks, I'll try it.

[Multigunner]

To answer your question, I ran into this when reloading for the 740 and researched a bit to find out why my slow powder, accurate and hard hitting bolt gun rounds were downright scary in the 740. Seemed the timing went all to hell and the bolt was doing bad things when I fired slow powder rounds.

Any powder slower than 4064 creates a pressure spike, not only that, but at the wrong time. It's my understanding that in a Garrand, this leads to damage to the op rod. Not having one, I can't verify this, but I believe it to be true.

4064 gives me good function in the 740. The action is similar with an op rod and rotating bolt, so the parallel makes sense to me.



Can't say which powders you should avoid when loading for the Garand, but everyone I knew that handloaded for their Garand told me to avoid slow burning powders to avoid excessive gas port pressure that could bend or break the op rod.
When gas port pressure is too high the op rod tries to move back to cam open the action before residual pressure has dropped enough for extraction.

The lightly used take off Matchgrade barrel I used to rebarrel my now long gone Garand had a insert dovetailed into the muzzle at the gas port and a much smaller port cut in it. I suspect this was to reduce gas flow of the longer burning powders the previous owner of the barrel had wanted to use.
When mounting that barrel to my receiver we found the new gas port was drilled a hair off center.

The Garand was limited to IMR powders during WW2, 4895 I think it was.
Early on the M1 ammunition and anything with bullets heavier than 150 grains proved to be hard on the op rod, but they later used 189 gr AP ammo with few if any reported problems. At that point in the war .30 aerial guns were being phazed out to be replaced by the .50 BMG and 20mm so they had huge stockpiles of .30 AP which they put to good use by instructing troops to forget the previous training not to fire unless you could see the enemy. Troops were instructed to lambast any spot they thought might conceal a German MG nest or other ambush party. The 168 AP will walk right through almost any field expediant cover.
Many a concealed German squad suddenly found themselves being shoot to pieces by an approaching American squad before they could spring their trap.

The M14 uses a gas trap that self meters the amount of gas let in and the still expanding gases are what gives its op rod the push to open the action more gently but still firmly.
If I were limited to only Double Base powders i might prefer the M14 gas system over the simpler Garand.

The 7.62 and to a lesser extent the .30-06 are still proving their worth as body armor becomes more available to our enemies, and they have learned a lot about bunkering down behind the walls of sturdy third world buildings.

If the Russian AK94 recoil control system were further developed for a 7.62 heavy assault rifle full auto or burst fire controlability problems would no longer be an issue.

I'd still have to stick with the Garand as best for any use I might put a semi auto to. The 7.62 NATO has some good points but theres simply been too much bad 7.62 ammo on the market for the last couple of decades.
Also I've never run across any complaints about a Garand receiver, but have seen images of a number of blown up M14 and M1A receivers.
The Garand was the high point in military firearms manufacturing excellence. Almost everything since then has suffered to some extent from loss of pride in the product.

[BruceB]

Where do you go to find out how to qualify for the cmp? I went to the link, but I saw nothing about how to qualify?


On the CMP home page, click on the "Sales" tab.

When the Sales page comes up, click on "Eligibility" in the column on the left side of the page.

[Arisaka99]

I looked, whats the difference between field and rack grades?

[Jack Stanley]

If I remember right , most of it is the condition of the barrel . Rack grade barrel would be worn more than a field grade . But then when I look at them the first thing I judge is the condition of the barrel and action .

Jack

[Arisaka99]

So can you get a new barrel for them if they have throat erosion? Or can you not do anything about it?

[Jack Stanley]

Barrels are available starting around a hundred fifty bucks plus installation unless you are handy at that . If you have to buy a barrel , buy the best you can afford , you won't be sorry .

Back when parts kits were everywhere I bought a few and any good used barrel I could find . Some of the military barrels shoot way better than they got a right to . I think you can find any part for a Garand that you are likely gonna need , lay in a few wear items and you'll be set for your lifetime .

Jack

[DIRT Farmer]

Chris my main interest in the M1 and 30 carbine was they were what my Dad made his living with for four years. I bought a cheep M1 at a gun show with grease in the barrel cheap, found ot why when I got it home. I spent another 100 on it later (years ago) and have a rifle with new barrel and springs in 308.
To me the rifles are as much a part of our history as the long rifle or the Sharps. The M1 takes a bit of learning but when you hold one, rember the young warriors who carried them and gave us what we have. So I would say the M1.

[Arisaka99]

What was wrong with it?

[DIRT Farmer]

The barrel looked like they had been shooting cat pyz, black, pitted and burnt to where a FMJ would drop far enough to chamber a loaded round in behind it. Rule #1 don't buy a gun with grease in the barrel unless it ischeap enough to replace the barrel.