failure to fire in a "94

[mike in co]

ok i have mentioned the rifle in a couple of threads. went out and shot some rounds today. in two cases i had a ftf.
in the first case, a recock and fire worked.
in the second case it never did fire....4-5 hits.
all of the remaining 16 rounds fired fine...the 2 where in the midle of things.

the unfired has a good solid dented primer...same lot as the others.

because it did it twice...me thinks a gun problem

i washed a ton of grit/dirt out of this rifle with wd40 over a week or so.

worn firing pin ?? or just dirt in the bolt ?

someone what to post a dissassembly thread for the '94......
( its a 1965 win 30-30)

thanks
mike in co

[excess650]

The '94 has been described as "a symphony of cams and levers", so it'll be a treat to disassemble and reassemble. After you do that you'll have a newfound affection for Marlins.

I would guess the firing pin is loaded up with congealed grease.

[oneokie]

Read the other thread, and looks like you used the new Win brass. Measure the rim thickness of those 2 cases and compare to the others. Also, check primer pocket depth on those two. Have you checked firing pin protrusion?

[mike in co]

Have you checked firing pin protrusion?

lol........and just how would one do that with the gun assembled ?


thanks

mike in co

[autofix4u]

Before you get too carried away,,, Turn the rifle over and open the lever, look at the bottom tang for the main sping strain screw. IT DOES come out on occasion and WILL cause the problems you describe.
It should be about center of the lowe tang and its job is to put tension on the main spring leaf..

[oneokie]

lol........and just how would one do that with the gun assembled ?


thanks

mike in co

You have absolutely no experience with Winchester lever actions, do you?

[Jon K]

mike,

Comedy of errors...........it could be anything, and it's not just Winchesters. Marlins are also prone to all the same problems.

Common problem to leverguns is a light hammer strike, worn/broken firing pin,dirty,worn hammer face,weak mainspring.

Many times just a change in primers will work wonders. Federal is the softest and CCI & Magtech are the hardest.

Good Luck,

Jon

[beagle]

Mike, I had that problem and traced it to the fact that I had loaded several hundred cases with Large Pistol primers as I was experimenting with at the time. Just enough lower to cause missfires. No problems since then./beagle

[mike in co]

Before you get too carried away,,, Turn the rifle over and open the lever, look at the bottom tang for the main sping strain screw. IT DOES come out on occasion and WILL cause the problems you describe.
It should be about center of the lowe tang and its job is to put tension on the main spring leaf..

tight

[mike in co]

You have absolutely no experience with Winchester lever actions, do you?

absoultley none........other than washing this one clear of a ton of dirt and grit, removing the tube cap and washing the follower, spring and tube.

which is why i am asking for help
(notice at the top the stickie for marlin dissassembly was a question by me...so here i am again, but about my first 94)

mike in co

[mike in co]

no one gonna post an assembly/dissassembly instruction


??????????????????????????????????????//

[oneokie]

Fair enough. Open the action completly. Use your thumb on the rear of the bolt to push the firing pin forward. Look at the recess in the bolt face. You will be able to see the firing pin nose.

For disassembly instructions, The NRA book has those. For a diagram, go to the GPC/Numrich Arms site.

[mike in co]

Fair enough. Open the action completly. Use your thumb on the rear of the bolt to push the firing pin forward. Look at the recess in the bolt face. You will be able to see the firing pin nose.

For disassembly instructions, The NRA book has those. For a diagram, go to the GPC/Numrich Arms site.

yes i can push it forward..but to measure is another story.....yes it does stick out.

ahhh see u r good...is that the gunsmith book or a firearms disassembly book ??

i'll go look at what i have.

thanks
mike in co

[bob208]

what primers were you using? could be you got some hard ones like cci. i havehad it before and that is why i will not use them.

[oneokie]

The firearms disassembly book...Rifles and Shotguns.

[redgum]

I found this, might be some help to you:
http://www.castbullet.com/misc/tdown.htm
Cheers

[mike in co]

what primers were you using? could be you got some hard ones like cci. i havehad it before and that is why i will not use them.

rem 9 1/2......the other 16 went bang first time, the 17th on the second hit..only one never went off.


and not an oal issue as it is right were i set it...2.535.....very light land marks



mike in co

[Jon K]

mike,

Remington primer cup is hard.....try Federal or Wolf.

Jon

[Ed Swan]

In the second paragraph I read it to mean that the unfired cartridges have the same indentation as the fired cases.

From my experience in reloading and teaching reloading classes this means that it is not a mechanical problem. Pistol primers in a rifle case can cause this as well as aged primers or contamination of the primer pellet ie. oil.

Ed Swan

[mike in co]

In the second paragraph I read it to mean that the unfired cartridges have the same indentation as the fired cases.

From my experience in reloading and teaching reloading classes this means that it is not a mechanical problem. Pistol primers in a rifle case can cause this as well as aged primers or contamination of the primer pellet ie. oil.

Ed Swan

are we talking about my gun and its issue ??
what 2nd paraghraph ?

there is only one unfired...not "unfired cartridges"

none have much the same indentation...it was 18 rounds in 6 groups of three all up 1 gr from the next.
read 9 1/2 primers....not aged, not contaminated........i have shot aprox 1500 of the 5k in this case, very first failure to fire...a contaminated primer would not fire on the second strike...

your comments have me lost....

mike in co

[mike in co]

ok..took the gun apart..
firing pin protrusion is aprox 57-60 thou

oal of firing pin is 3.618...anyone have a spec or measurement of a new/newer pin(1965)

saw nothing to interfere with normal operation...no dirt or carbon built up anywhere.

...

mike in co

[oneokie]

ok..took the gun apart..
firing pin protrusion is aprox 57-60 thou

oal of firing pin is 3.618...anyone have a spec or measurement of a new/newer pin(1965)

saw nothing to interfere with normal operation...no dirt or carbon built up anywhere.

...

mike in co

Firing pin protrusion is good. Did you check the transfer button in the locking bolt for free movement?

Have you broken down the round that failed to fire? Check primer pocket depth of that case? Examine the primer for obvious defects? Anvil present in the primer cup? Priming compound evident in the cup? If all these things check out good, no idea of what to suggest.

[mike in co]

there was a boolit in the case, powder in the case, and a primer in the case....with a nice firing pin indentation...but no ignition. when pushing out the primer..it got away...but they all had the compound and anvils when they went in the priming tool. and yes the transfer button has freedom of movement.......i did not measure the depth of the primer pocket...think i would have felt the differencee in seating the primers...i'll mark the case and see what happens next time.


mike in co

[Newtire]

Hi Mike,

Does it have the "rebounding hammer" B.S. arrangement? If you take off the rear stock and look at the link that goes between the hammer and the other end of the spring (inside the spring) and it has a curve with 2-legs pushing on the hammer, then you do. If so, trim off about 1/8-3/16" of the lower leg and then it will stop pushing the hammer away from the firing pin just as it's about to hit it. Mine fires every time now.

[mike in co]

no it maybe a while before i have time to play with it again..

but it is right here in front of me.

the comment on modifiying the rebounding hammer spring has me curious...
any commeent on that subject ?

mike in co

[Newtire]

no it maybe a while before i have time to play with it again..

but it is right here in front of me.

the comment on modifiying the rebounding hammer spring has me curious...
any commeent on that subject ?

mike in co

Hi Mike,

The actual part I am taslking about cutting is the one I am pointing to with this arrow. I didn't do a thing to the spring.

It is this leg which hits the hammer and bounces it back a bit just before it strikes. This was the cause of all my troubles. I found the procedure somewhere on the net but don't recall where.

Just be very careful not to take off too much or you ruin the part. I took off about 3/16" on mine. When you go to put this back in, you can put a small pin into the hole on the spring guide after compressing the spring and then pull out the pin once you get it into position.

Hope this helps.

[mike in co]

If I read your earlier posts correctly you said you checked the hammer spring strain screw and it was tight. If it has that screw, it is not the funky rebounding hammer setup, I would look at maybe a new spring or look to see if someone didn't shorten the strain screw. I have a model 94 made in the early 70's in .44 mag that is missing the strain screw completly and no misfires. You might try removing the spring just to see if the hammer is moving freely. Shoot I don't know, might be a headspace problem. Good Luck.

LongPoint

yes this does not have a coil spring..it has dual leaf springs....

again it is a 1965

[submoa]

Mike in CO,
Hey guys, I don't know if you guys paid attention to his post, but he said he had a good solid primer strike on the one round that failed to fire. Mike you may have just had a bad primer. It happens. I've seen primers with no anvils. Mike, make sure you are seating your primers to the bottom of the primer pocket, which is often slightly below flush. The primer has to make contact with the bottom of the pocket with sufficient force to cause the anvil to seat in the primer cup and sensatize the primer. If the primer is not seated to the bottom of the pocket, it can move when the FP strikes it. The movement obsorbs the FP force. If the primer pocket is dirty, it can cause the same thing to occur because the anvil will not "crush" into the primer cup. I was the rep for CCI for many years and have watched primers being made. Most folks don't realize that they are still made by hand and although it doesn't happen very often, an occassional bad primer, out of the millions made every year, still gets past quality control.

[R.C. Hatter]

:coffeecom You might check the sides of the hammer for undue wear or a bright spot, which would indicate rubbing between frame and hammer. I know of this condition causing misfires by slowing the hammer fall.

[sagacious]

Mike in CO,
Hey guys, I don't know if you guys paid attention to his post, but he said he had a good solid primer strike on the one round that failed to fire. Mike you may have just had a bad primer. It happens.
That's how it reads to me. It's very easy to misinterpret ammo problems as firearm problems. If the primer indent was good (as it was), and all subsequent hits showed likewise (as they did), the gun did precisely what it was supposed to do. No point fixing what's not broken.

Just a round with a bad primer, or a bad primer pocket, etc. Good luck.

[mike in co]

i shot the gun again today...31 rounds....sight in and 4 loads....no misfires.

have not reshot the one pc of brass that failed.

all primers were fullu seated with a slight crush.



so maybe dirt in the gun or operator error ?

mike in co

[oneokie]

i shot the gun again today...31 rounds....sight in and 4 loads....no misfires.

have not reshot the one pc of brass that failed.

all primers were fullu seated with a slight crush.



so maybe dirt in the gun or operator error ?

mike in co

Still think it was a bad primer or bad primer pocket in that one piece of brass. If you still know which piece you had the problem with, put a fresh primer in the case and see if the gun will pop the primer. Doing this will tell you which caused the problem. A little time and a 3¢ primer.