Specialty & AP pistol cartridges

[Shotptrdj]

I'm new to this forum (posted a few times last year), and I've recently joined a bunch of forums in my effort to reach out to anyone who is interested in what I am interested in: special-purpose gadgety pistol ammo. The weird stuff with odd tips; exploders, multiball, darts, cutters, slicer, dicers, expanders, plastics & teflon. I have an extensive history in collecting & researching and a large collection. I'm with the International Ammunition Association (IAA), and I have written a book on the topic of pistol-caliber armor piercing ammo which is my main point of collecting. Below are pics of the stuff I collect; a reference sheet I made for pistol-caliber AP ammo, a box of mixed caliber specialty ammo, and a box of 9mm specialty ammo. Please ask questions or let me know if you are interested in collecting this stuff as well.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/typelistonline.jpg

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/29384lf.jpg

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/9mmuniques2.jpg



KTW Teflon, American Ballistics, National Cartridge, Alia armor piercing, Omnishock, Geco Metal piercing, Remingotn Hi-way master, Peters Highway patrol, SIB armor piercing, Arcane 9mm, VBR ammo, SCMITR, GEA Cyclone, 7.62x25 API, ALPHA 9mm, CBAP 9mm, ANSB, Libra Snail, M39/B, 6.5x25 CBJ, PPS MSC, 224 VOB, 223 timbs, Magsafe, Beehive, armscor strike 3, equalloy, hydrashok, village metalworks safe stop, multiball, kawser pingrabber, kawser pin grabber, velet exploder, velex exploder, FXlabs, D&D omega star, Thunderzap, BBM hardcap, cobra gun HSA, Hirtenberger EMB, DAG Action-3, simunition, Aguila IQ, Triton quick shok, Hi Vel Hypersonic, Mesko Hornet, Mesko Mosquito, Mesko Wasp, XM261, KTW 22 pokey, etc...

[Hardcast416taylor]

Firstly, welcome to our mental illness called lead casting. Secondly, that is a fascinating display of cartridges and odd and obscure bullet types. Just when I think I have a grasp on what goes down the barrel, someone like yourself comes along to shatter my world. Thanks for the colorful picture display.Robert

[Dframe]

What hardcast said. Just when I think I've seen everything, someone like you comes along and shows me something new.

[Shotptrdj]

For your casting interest, there were a few fly-by-night manufacturers who did use some H&G and Ballisticat molds to make "Arcane-style" or "penetrator" loads from lead (from around the late 70's to the very early 90's). They would be hard-cast formulations I suppose, or maybe even zamak or kirksite? (I'm not too familiar with lead casting and bullet molds). The 3 companies were Hi-Vel, Van Ripper, and Rhino replacement parts, and the photo below shows the stuff:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/leadap.jpg

[Artful]

Tell us about the H&G 938 Arcane-Style mold 170 gr - plain bas with / one square grease groove. Do you cast wih it, what penetration tests did you do with it - looks wicked.

I just got two group buy molds (38 & 44) with a pointed nose Lyman 35893 & 429303 but without the gas check - I have yet to cast and try 'em

[Shotptrdj]

Artful - That mold isn't mine actually, I just found the photo, and I know it's associated with some of the bullets made by the above mentioned companies. Those lead loads weren't really great penetrators, relatively speaking anyway. They didn't do any better than any bullet which was meant for penetrating, and against steel or hard targets they weren't anything special. Against Kevlar, heavy clothing, etc. they did better.

[Artful]

Hmm, let me see what I can find - it looks interesting I know some of the early penetrators were developed like the 38 super for use against auto bodies by L.E. - I wouldn't poo poo cast bullets too hard as working bullets, you can get quite the energy transfer with the right combination. I had made up some nickle babbett metal 44 mag SWC's which shot thru culvert and even a grader blade. (I hope the statute of limitations has passed - I honestly thought the blade would stop it.)

[Artful]

Ballisticast makes the Arcane / Grennell design
http://www.ballisti-cast.com/Hand%20Cast%20Molds%20&%20Handles.htm
#907 9mm 115 gr pb
#965 40 cal 125gr pb
#1538 45 cal pb 170 gr

2 Cavity with Sprue Plates & Screws............................................ ..................................... $115.00

4 Cavity with Sprue Plates & Screws............................................ ..................................... $195.00

6 Cavity with Sprue Plates & Screws............................................ ..................................... $300.00

Handles not included
Handles (2 or 4 cavity )................................................. .................................................. .. $50.00

Handles ( 6 cavity)........................................... .................................................. ......... $65.00

Handles (8 or 10 cavity)........................................... .................................................. $75.00

Guess I'll look on ebay for some to play with

[Buckshot]

............One I don't see there is Dean Grennel's "Junk Yard Dog", but possibly because it wasn't intended as an armor piercing deal :-)

..............Buckshot

[Shotptrdj]

............One I don't see there is Dean Grennel's "Junk Yard Dog", but possibly because it wasn't intended as an armor piercing deal :-)
..............Buckshot


What is this "Junk yard dog" load? I've never heard of it. Thanks.

[Bill*]

............One I don't see there is Dean Grennel's "Junk Yard Dog", but possibly because it wasn't intended as an armor piercing deal :-)

..............Buckshot

Now ya dun it. Judging by the collection photo, poor guys not gonna sleep till he finds one[smilie=1:

[Artful]

What is this "Junk yard dog" load? I've never heard of it. Thanks.

Joe Zambone's "junkyard dog" using a 44 cal Speer shot capsule with brass wire instead of shot and Dean Grennell's personal mix of heavy lead swaging vent extrusion wire instead of clipped-off lighter pieces of brass braising wire.

Anti personnel round designed for keeping you from being mauled by security dog in junkyards, in case someone forgot to put fido away. Was used in the 44 special "bulldog" type short barreled revolvers for use from 1-10 yards to quickly stop an animal intent on making you walk with a cane for the rest of your life (provided you kept your life). :Fire: From the days when Security for a parts yard wasn't by alarm and the motion detector had some bite.[smilie=1:

Dean Grennell experimented with many reloads, you could see a monthly column in Gun World magazine which he and Jack Lewis founded back in the mid 1960's though you will find his reloading wisdom and humor in stuff going back to the 1950's. Check out 1970's issue of ABC's of Reloading. I still remember his making of Silver bullets ala The Lone Ranger - turned out to be more difficult with what would have been field equipment of the time then he counted on.

[Shotptrdj]

Thanks for the info Artful. I have also found that there is actually an article in the March/April 1982 issue of American Handgunner about these Junkyard loads, so I'm going to order up the article online from their website.

[3006guns]

Somewhere in my vast pile of junk, I have a small plastic box containing six either .25 or .32 acp rounds, evidently the original factory packaging. Instead of a bullet they have what appears to be sharpened bronze cylinder. The idea was that the "bullet" would travel through tissue and cut a "worm"......almost impossible for a surgeon to repair, especially with all the attendant bleeding. Looks suspiciously like one of your display rounds. I have no idea what the base looked like, but it had to be sealed in some fashion to contain the powder gasses. Being light, I bet it would tumble on impact before doing any real damage.

The idea struck me as so nasty that I hid the damn things and have no idea where!

[bohica2xo]

Shot:

I have some experience with that 9x19 "ANSB" round, and can tell you it easts Kevlar for breakfast.

A level 3a vest panel is no match for that round at all. We fired several rounds at soft armor targets, always the same results - right through, with plenty of energy left.

Definitely the "real deal" when it comes to "AP handgun ammo". If any of you guys on here find some in your collection, I would recommend getting rid of it unless you have a type 10 FFL.

B.

[Shotptrdj]

Bohica2xo - The ANSB rd I have heard both good & bad things about. Some people find that it works perfectly well against Kevlar, while others say that it is not nearly as good as the original tubular design which was truly hollow with no base (just a flyaway obturating disc).

People need not worry about having an FFL 10 if they own them since the federal pistol AP law has nothing to do with civilians possessing such ammo. The federal law is just dealing with commercial manufacture, commercial importation, or licensed dealers selling to anyone other than law enforcement or the government. I own most of the AP rds pictured above and I have no such license. I live in Maine where there are no extraneous state laws restricting pistol AP ammo either. There are certain states which have very restrictive rules about pistol AP though. Such as: CA, IL, TX, KY, NJ, RI, FL, and Wash D.C.. RI & FL is only with regard to "truncated" hardened core or monolithic hard metal projectiles though, and not round nose or otherwise (like the HP ANSB). There's a handful of other states which have rules about Teflon-coated pistol bullets being restricted like NC, SC, AL, IN, KS, OK, and HI - and so those are basically just dealing with KTW bullets. Most of the nation has nothing to worry about though as 36 states have no restrictive laws about pistol AP ammo.

[Shotptrdj]

I have a small plastic box containing six either .25 or .32 acp rounds, ..... they have what appears to be sharpened bronze cylinder.

3006guns - Those little guys are the "MSC" (maximum sub-caliber) loads from Personal Protection Systems, and they were originally done in brass before switching to copper due to concerns over the federal law which restricted commercial manufacture without proper licensing, and the fact that commercial sale to civilians would be all but impossible with the "hard" brass projectiles. The idea was to give allot of punch to a very small caliber, and the hard metal combined with a HP bullet would supposedly give it decent penetration and stopping power. They're ok bullets, and they outperform most other .25acp bullets, but they're not really AP per se. PPS also did some .32acp loads with a more truncated hollow tip copper tubular design that was called the MTT (Maximum thirty-two). Some pics below of the MSC:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/msconline2.jpg

Those two loads from PPS had bullets which were actually made by Hi-Vel which is still in business and who still sells those cartridges to this day (copper-version only): http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__24/Pocket_Pistol_Defense_Ammuniti/pocket_pistol_defense_ammuniti.html