Bullets All Over...some help please

[Smell_of_Cedar]

I am distraught and depressed after a shooting range session, if anyone can help me I'd very much appreciate it as the first gun hunt is about a month away.

This is what I used.

Thompson Center .50 Cal Caplock 1:48" twist
250 Grain Lee R.E.A.L. .50 cal bullets (self cast) pure lead
Used both 60 and 90 grains of American Pioneer loose, and 90 grains of 777 loose (both ffg)

So....my best group at 75 yards was about 14"

I did not remember to lubricate the bullets.

I tried both cleaning and not cleaning the gun between shots.

I did pull out long shards of lead when cleaning...leading me to believe the gun is ripping apart the bullets.:holysheep

With my store bought Maxi Hunters, it shoots fine....

Also, I over coated the mold with carbon I think because the bullets seemed a tad small...they fit OK in my buddies Knight, which shoots almost 1 MOA with his own loads, but his gun shot about 4" with these loads. His gun loaded a lot harder than mine.

Does anyone have any ideas? Poor bullet design? Lack of lube? Wrong bullet weight?

:confused::lovebooli:shock:

[docone31]

First off, clean the mold in mineral spirits. Leave the carbon to someone else. They do not need it.
Cast with pure lead. The fill out is great. I have lubed a few of my R.E.A.L.s with valve lapping compound. That has helped.
Back down on the load. With R.E.A.L.s I find lower charges deliver better accuracy untill the barrel is real broken in.
Crisco makes good lube. The weight is good, the design is good. I make my lube, with 55% Beeswax, 45% Crisco. I also add some Olive oil. Stinks, but works.
Good luck.
With that twist, the R.E.A.L.s should do real well.

[Smell_of_Cedar]

Thank you for the help!

I will be doing all of that tomorrow, can't wait to get back to the range and see how it works!

[waksupi]

Try some patched round balls. Should get a group of around 2" or so to start.

[mooman76]

You should be getting better groups with that combo. Try starting with 50 gr and after you shoot abit work up in 5 gr increments to see how your groups do. also 777 is more powerful than regular BP powders. You should be using aproximately 25% less. If you leaded the barrel rightaway and moved down to a lower powder charge you still have the leading there. I wouldn't bother using a cleaning patch unless the REALs are going in too tight. They scrape the barrel as they go in anyway and are we talking a new unbroken in gun? That could be part.

[10 ga]

Is gun new? I would suggest trying patched round ball. That is cheap way to break in barrel and test. Start with 50 gr load and go up in 5 gr increments. Use lubed patches with the RBs. With the real boolits be sure to lube. start with same 50 gr load and work up. Get rid of the american pioneer it's very inconsistent and notorious for varying pressure etc... Back way off on the 90 gr of 777, start down at 50 gr and work up. you will probably find that something in the 70 to 85 gr area is best accuracy. I still hunt with patched roundball in my hammer guns with slow twist or if they shoot RB good. Since they are lighter you will be able to shoot more powder with them. My RB hunting load is 110 gr in my .58 and 100 gr in my .50. It will shoot clean through a deer broadside out to 70 yards and will give complete penetration out to 100. Dittos for all the other suggestions too. You'll figure it out. Please post results and cure. That'll be more info for all of us. Best, 10 ga

[curator]

REALs often perform better with a wad or filler between them and the powder charge. You might also try to work up a charge starting at 60 grains and shooting a group then adding another 5 or 10 grains and shooting another group. Wipe the bore between shots so you have a consistant barrel condition. Keep notes while you are doing this and only chnge one thing at a time. REALs really do shoot well if you find what your individual rifle likes.

[qajaq59]

Curator is right.

Go down about 6 threads to here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=91131 and read it if your other efforts don't work. It certainly solved my problem. And my groups were far worse then yours are.

[Maven]

SoC, Is there a chance that your REAL mold is casting too small for your T/C's bore? The reason I ask is that I had 2 such molds, 250 gr. & 320 gr., and neither dropped a CB that fit the bore of my inline. You may want to measure its diameter with a micormeter just to be sure. Also, the conical CB's, e.g., Maxi-Balls & Maxi-Hunters, are significantly heavier than 250 grs. and that may be contributing to the inaccuracy as well.

[flyingstick]

Cedar, I just shot my new 50 REAL boolits yesterday and they shot about an 18 inch center @ 50 with any charge I used. I tried the wads, the Cream of Wheat filler and everything. Came home and did what I shouldv'e done first I put a mic on them. I have never bought a lee mold that threw out large enough diameter boolits. I have lapped out all of my lee molds with lapping compound and an old boolit with a screw through the center. All of my round ball molds are fine, I just find a thicker patch. From the factory my REAL was throwing out .504 top boolits which seemed very loose, after lapping it;s throwing out a .520 which goes down really snug. I'm heading to the range in a minute, Ill let you know how the lapping of the mold went.
Don

[Smell_of_Cedar]

I should have also mentioned that the bullets are two different diameters from carbon coating the cavities. I can tell the difference pushing them down, but both are a bit loose.

I'll take a pair of calipers and measure the diameters of the bullets I have now, and then after I recast them.

[qajaq59]

I just checked mine and it was .517 from the factory. You'd think they would catch one as small as yours before shipping it?

[Smell_of_Cedar]

I don't think it is Lee, as I put a very thick film of carbon in the cavities.

On one cavity one side has the thin film they suggest....that in the one that fits a lot tighter.

So I figure once I clear out the carbon and clean with mineral spirits, I should get a much wider bullet.

[flyingstick]

Well, Cedar i just got back from the range and no matter what i did the REAL wouldn't shoot right. 2f, 3f, under bullet wad, lube. Loads from 50-100 but no dice...then i found my culprit. I thought my twist was 1:48, but after the 12th shot I checked it again. My twist rate is a 1:54. Which I think will be too slow for the 320 REAL.

[docone31]

I do not think that is it.
The R.E.A.L. does fairly well with the slower twists. My wife's Dimmick in .54 is a 1/72, and it does the R.E.A.L. well.
Since you have fired a few now, the bore should be getting more and more broken in, what does the muzzle look like?
Something is making an upset in the casting exiting the barrel.
Have you tried patched balls yet?

[docone31]

A thought,
With my R.E.A.L.s, I have to use a nylon hammer to seat them. I use homemade lube.
How difficult are the R.E.A.L.s for you to seat?
I am wondering, if hammering with the ball starter, or other seating device might be deforming the nose. That is why I went with the nylon hammer. A couple of taps, and it goes right in. The nose is like cast. I could really move the nose when I used a ball starter.

[flyingstick]

I'm shooting RB super good, punching through the same hole @ 50. I did notice the ball starter was doing some damage to the nose. I'll give thew rubber mallet a try. Cedar let us know if you find out anything. Thanks, docone.
Don

[mooman76]

Flyingstick
The REALs come on two different sizes. Maybe the lighter one will shoot better in your caliber.

[Maven]

Smell of Cedar & flyingstick, I meant to write this in my 1st post: A properly dimensioned Lee REAL will shoot as accurately as a Maxi-Ball in a 1:48 twist bbl. My .45cal. T/C Hawken would group .440" RB's, .45cal. Maxi-Balls, and REAL's into a bit more than 1" @ 50 yds. (from a rest; factory sights) with 70gr. - 80gr. Pyrodex RS (BP was hard to find locally).

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Any possibility the REAL is getting misaligned as it is being started into the bore ?
If it was mr I wouod get a RB load ready. A caliber .50 RB is adequet for a really large critter if the shot is placed where it needs to be.

[bigdog454]

If I were shooting a soft pure lead bullet thru a center fire handgun or rifle at a velocity exceeding 1000 fps I could expect to have some leading in the bbl. Now if I were to shoot a pure lead REAL bullet thru a modern ML at a velocity exceeding 1000 fps (say 1500fps), shouldent I also expect to see leading in the barrel?? If not, why not?
It seems logical that if the bullet would strip in a center fire gun at that velocity, it should do so in a ML?

[felix]

The two applications are not related per se. Black powder versus white powder (smokeless). Black powder fires with its maximum pressure up front thus expanding the ball to fit tight "right now" if the ball was big enough to do so already. This factor will allow a softer boolit (ball) behave differently throughout the barrel. The smokeless scenario is much more problematic because the ball/boolit might not expand properly until some later time like when maximum pressure hits. Any boolit slop at all will allow leading to occur. It's all about boolit size/fit and the acceleration curve required to make the combination work as intended. ... felix

[Underclocked]

Smell of Cedar, I wonder if you got all the lead out of the bore during cleaning? I would sure check and be sure before trying again.

[bigdog454]

Felix; very good explanation, but I think that you missed the target on the pressure curve of black vs. smokeless powder.

[Smell_of_Cedar]

Smell of Cedar, I wonder if you got all the lead out of the bore during cleaning? I would sure check and be sure before trying again.

I checked just that a few days ago. This is one part of my problem.

Flashlight down the muzzle, at the muzzle alone I can see lead on the riflings.

Hoppe's No. 9 like I mentioned in my new thread did not remove anything, with a cloth patch. I'm afraid a .50 cal brush will not be able to be pulled out the way it was rammed in, so I will get a .45 brush and scrape on the sides after the Hoppe's.

I think that another problem is fit. They shot a lot better (albeit poorly) from my buddies rifle than mine (5" vs. feet) and his gun was significantly harder to load. I recasted them, but didn't heat the mold again after a while and got mostly small bullets. I can visually see that when I heat the mold, they have much wider and "sharper" bands.

Since both were done unlubed, I'm suspecting lube is needed.

I may try the over powder wads once I try the whole combo tomorrow.

[405]

35 years ago I discovered that leading can happen in a ML shooting conicals. Seems very little has been or is currently written about it and some in the ML community may be in denial about it. No matter, MLs can lead up pretty badly and it will KILL accuracy.... slowly at first then the process speeds up. :(

To get the lead out use one of the regular methods. You'll need a very stout cleaning rod with a good handle. Either a brass screen over an expandible jag (like the Lewis Lead Remover system) or bronze wool or Chore Boy wrapped tightly around a slightly undersized brass brush. Even steel wool will work well but some don't like the thought of it. The type of solvent used doesn't matter as much as the tight fit and elbow grease. Either Hoppes 9 or Kroil are the norm for the process.

Once the lead is out then it's a matter of finding a conical style and diameter and maybe even an alloy that will minimally lead the bore... along with a good lube.... all of course aimed at good accuracy. Paper patching will also, usually but not always, cure the leading problem.

Once that combo is found then FREQUENT and complete cleaning with correct jags and tight fitting patches will keep any accumulation of lead under control.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have found in my smoth bores that I shoot shot in the best way to remove lead is to shoot tight patched round balls. They will scrub out a bore quicker than you would think and you get the pratice shooting. 50 grns eqv. of BP and have at it, swabing between shots.

[mooman76]

SoC, I posted on your other thread how to get lead out and I thought of something else. I have also heard some use cream of wheat for fillers and they claim when shooting it, it will scrub the barrel out for you. You could load some up under a patched roundball and shoot it out. Also Are your REALs still coming out way out of round? I could send you some other REALs to try if you like. They are the smaller ones but they might work better or help you figure out your problem.