Smokin' hot 32/327 bullet woes.....

[2 dogs]

Recieved my first RG4 design mold in the Smokin' Hot 32/327 design today which I was really pushing hard to get and despite the 105 heat index today I cranked up the casting pot and gave her a go. Boiled the mold on the stove in pot for a while to get any oil out of it and got it nice and hot by setting it on the RCBS casting pot while the lead got up to temp.

I immediately discovered the RG4 design wasnt compatable with my bottom pour RCBS pot as the mechanical parts on the bottom of the mold would just hang up on the mold guide bar. Then I tried to ladle pour into mold and while I got better results in neither case could I get a bullet to completely fill out. I tried for a good while until I got frustrated and decided I better set the thing down before I threw it down the driveway......

In my opinion, the HP pins are WAY TOO BIG!!! My alloy is 50% Linotype and 50 percent range lead and I have never seen a mold where I couldnt fill out the bullet! Even if the bullet was filled out just right, I doubt it would run thru my Star Sizer without collapsing the Hollow Point cavity.....

While Im very dissappointed, Im standing by to hear of your results......

[Hickory]

Try casting flat points in two cavities until you get good boolits.
After you have cast for several sessions the mould seems to settle down and starts to castem' like it's suppose to.
Running it hot is the order of the day when casting, and it takes (for me) about 12-15 minutes of casting to bring it up to tempeture.

[Dark Helmet]

Had to run my 429421 RG4 a while before i could get them to fall off the pins.
Try wrapping it in foil and put it in the kitchen stove burner on low, pins down to preheat it.

Give it another try 2 Dogs-it's your baby, don't give up quite yet.
Your bottom pour might be needed to get the lead in the little suckers, it made a difference on my 314-120 RF

[Lloyd Smale]

Personaly i think weve been getting carried away with hp size. Bigger isnt allways better and from what ive experimented with there not only to fragile but most of the time the bigger hp cavity makes the bullet a bit more finking when it comes to finding good loads. The new 429640 mold i have has pins so wide and deep that the walls by the nose are paper thin. I had my nieghbor make me new pins alot smaller. If you look at the original 640 the cavity isnt quite as wide and alot shallower. The real deap hp cavitys just dont maintain enough weight if the loose there noses to be effective penetrators. In my opinion a hp pin should never go deaper then the first driving band and even that is a bit to deep.

[2 dogs]

I agree with Lloyd wholeheartedly and believe me I love to argue with him as often as possible. Im curious to see if anyone else who has this mold runs into this problem.....

[Shooter6br]

Mine did not fill out The problem was with my Lee Drip O Matic. It wasnt flowing enough. I cleaned the nozzle and got a nice flow instead of a dripping flow. I also pre heat the mold. and run hot. The HP is a bit wide but i shoot as casted

[WARD O]

I am with Lloyd on this as well. The size of the HP is getting too carried away! The old HP from Lyman was a little on the small size but I too see problems from the too large cavities.

Push through sizing in the Star looks to become an issue.

Ward

[WARD O]

Dark Helmet
Try putting a little spru plate lube on the pins only - it will aid in release.

Ward

[Blammer]

turn the mould around on the handles so the pin holders are on the opposite side of your mould holder for the bottom pour. Should work well that way.

I'd very very lightly smoke JUST the pin tips, and see how that does for release, works pretty well for me.

[2 dogs]

I need to make a couple of quick points here.

First, we were all pretty high and dry for a mold maker when Al popped up and saved us. Independent businessmen like Al are the backbone of this country. He deserves our patronage and respect, I am in no way disparaging Al or his molds. It is important to remember when you are out on the cutting edge of design SOMETIMES you gotta take a couple of stabs at things to get them just right. Let it be known that AL Nelson is on it!

Just cuz Im spoiled and expect my molds to make perfect bullets all on their own with no effort on my part doesnt mean Im about to give up here. Do me the favor of keeping this thread on topic and so we can help ourselves and Al get this ironed out. Remember this one was my baby!

My hats off to Al and DJ for thier help and for ALWAYS being there.

[WARD O]

I think that this is going to be a great boolit - Lets give it a little time to get some testing done.

I'm still looking forward to the next 32 mould I have ordered with Swede - the SWC Keith that is scheduled to run in February.

Ward

[Shooter6br]

I learned something about casting hollow points. With small bullets (32 cal in my case) the HP pins need to be HOT. I had trouble with the 100g HP NOE. It is not the mold( very nice ) It is the nature of the beast. thanks Swede for a great mold! Rick

[WARD O]

OK - I got up this morning and decided to give this mould a test run.

I plugged in the pot. I set the temp to 700. The alloy I am using is 50/50 lead to traditional wheel weights. I added a small amount of tin.

I looked the mould over closely. I cleaned it with brake cleaner. I boiled it for 20 minutes. I dried it off. I applied a little of the lube Swede sent with it to the top and bottom of the spru plate and to the tips of the HP pins and to the tips of the alignment pins. I attached a set of Lee handles and placed the mould on my hot plate with the base ends of the pins touching the plate. The hot plate was set to its highest setting.

After the melt came up to temp, I checked it with a Lyman thermometer. I started casting with a different mould and ran through 50-60 bullets in my Miha 432640 (its third session) making a few hollow points. The 32 mould sat on the hot plate for 30-45 minutes.

I refilled and again tested my melt and it was just over 700 and I started ladel pouring 32 HP's. I then applied lube to the top of the mould while it was filled. I was getting good base fillout right from the get go. Some of the first bullets were wrinkled but there was no point fill out! The mould would drop the bullets quite freely - no banging on the handles was necessary.

I never could get good fill out of the nose/point. I cast as fast as I could to bring the temp of the pins up. I was having bullets break apart after dropping from the mould onto four layers of towels set on a old piece of carpet. I did not get many frosted bullets but there were a few. I slowed only enough to give the bullets a few more seconds to solidify so they wouldn't break apart.

I took a very short break to refill the pot with rejects and sprus and got right back at it. I think I roughly made 150-200 bullets and out of all of these I doubt I have ten that have a well filled out nose. From the crimp groove back almost all of these bullets were acceptable.

This did not work today! So tell me guys, what should I be changing?????

(I won't be back on the computer until Monday sometime.)

Ward

[Blammer]

can you try to pressure pour with the ladle?

[SwedeNelson]

Like Blammer said.
And try to work the heat up a little more.
Mine likes 760 to start then I work it down as I go.

Swede Nelson

[crabo]

I've used Kroil and Bullplate on my pins. I like to let the boolit sit a bit longer in the mold, after I open it, and before I dump them out. It helps on some molds by keeping the nose from deforming.

[2 dogs]

Al, Im thinking that pin needs to be reduced by 50 percent at least.

[SwedeNelson]

2 dogs

Got the shop working on the following.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/GB040_PINS.jpg

Will have more problems with a smaller (diameter) pin releasing in the RG's
so we can only go so small. Ideally we should have never offered this bullet in a RG.
To small - but I had to try.

Will keep you posted on the pins.

Swede Nelson

[Ramslammer]

G'Day Swede
No compaints from me except it hasn't arrived. I reckon your a good bloke just for making these things. I'd be interseted in more pins (#2) if they are made but otherwise I'll use the ones I'll get with the mold. It's just nice for someone to make us what we wanted THANKS.
On another note, How did you send my mold as you only wanted $20 post and I'd like to enter other group buys, and be able to get reasonable shipping?
Juddy

[Lloyd Smale]

Al that #2 pin looks like the best compromise. It is about as radical of a hp pin as a guy would want. Where your really run into trouble is when the pin is as deep as a crimp grove or first driving band. That middle one is going to give good expansion with about any alloy and still leave enough bullet if the nose shears off.

[square butte]

Al, What about producing pin#3 with a little more meat around the outside diameter of the nose - similar to what you've done with #2, but just a shallow cone shaped dimple in the nose. (depth just as you have shown, but a ring of meat around outside edge of nose). I'd be interested in a set of both #2 and #3. Could also use pins like this in the 314-129. Gives us lots more options. This is a crowd that loves options.

[Shooter6br]

I would like to have the smaller pins Swede when they are made. I will cast the solids. These litlle bullets are difficult to make for sure. ,but it is the nature of the beast i beleive thanks Rick

[Shooter6br]

"At first if you dont suck seed, suck until you do suck seed" Churley Howard (Three Stogies) to the point. I heated the mold to about 300 degrees. Set my Lee Drip- o Matic to 9 and went to town. Both HP and solids cast great out of 25-1 alloy. The mold actually smoked !pics to follow :castmine:

[Shooter6br]

Loaded some HP's I feel due to the thin area around the HP cavity the HP's actually " collapse" when very light seating pressure is used. The HP cavity is reduced in actual size. i use Lee dies with 16-1 alloy. Smaller pins would help but the weight of the bullet would increase to at least 110 grains( guess) Still a workable HP for the 32mag. Harder alloy would of course prevent the collapse.This small bullet does present challenges

[frankenfab]

I was concerned about the hollowpoint when I saw the pics Swede posted.

I like the Mihec style lubrisizer punch with the point in the end. I uniforms out small defects and swages out the very small flash that is occasionally present on the nose.

A custom seating stem could also be made to put the pressure on the hollow point cavity when seating, even better a stem that supported both the outside and inside of the nose. Very complicated, but if made in 2 pieces it wouldn't require a form tool to make.

All this being said, I AM THRILLED WITH THIS MOLD, I WOULD GLADLY PAY FOR A SET OF SMALLER HP PINS, AND I WILL BUY MANY MORE MOLDS FROM SWEDE AND MIHA.

I hope my feedback is not in any way viewed as a complaint!

[Shooter6br]

i agree The mold is top grade. i never casted small HP before. it is a learned technique. I did cast some nice HP's You get more "rejects" then solids. Much easier to cast larger HP's ( 45 cal etc).99 % of my casting is solids for target use. i like the big HP's (41 mag , 45 ACP) for self defence /hunting. smaller pins i would like also

[19112TAP]

I would be interested in a smaller set of pins also, like #2 style.

Tom

[Newtire]

I agree on the fact that Al is definitely "on it". I had some troubles getting a previous mould of Al's to fill out and it turned out to be the Lee pot and not the mould.

I too am not getting the noses to fill out at all after smoking, heating washing, Brake Kleening, smoking the pins and burning my fingers off. I am using an RCBS bottom pour now too. 5-casting sessions. Tried to cover all the bases.

I got real good fillout after setting the base of the mould into the melt but that's not possible to do after the pot gets a little bit lower than full. Maybe the hotplate is the ticket.

I am also having troubles getting the mould halves to separate. Possibly because of too much heat?

I am in for a smaller set of pins too when they become available.

[45 2.1]

These are small cavity molds.......... get your melt to 750 degrees, use the smallest rowell ladle and have the mold very hot to start. The smaller ladles and bottom pour pots do not put out enough pressure and volume at the time its needed to fill cavities out in an all hollow point mold. Pour each cavity seperately as you would a single cavity and allow no bleed over till the cavity is poured.

[Hickory]

These are small cavity molds.......... get your melt to 750 degrees, use the smallest rowell ladle and have the mold very hot to start. The smaller ladles and bottom pour pots do not put out enough pressure and volume at the time its needed to fill cavities out in an all hollow point mold. Pour each cavity seperately as you would a single cavity and allow no bleed over till the cavity is poured.

I agree with you to some extent.
These small cavity moulds need to run hot and at a steady speed to keep the temp' up and to be consistant.
I feel that these small cavity moulds should not be no more than 2 cavities, because 4 cavity moulds loose their heat too fast and it's hard to maintain the steady and consistant heat needed for a good cast.
My feelings are that moulds made in brass or iron would serve the caster better than aluminum when casting boolit in the 30 caliber or less range.
NOE moulds cast very good when you find the sweet spot when casting, I'd not give-up any of mine.

And that folks, is how I see it.[smilie=f:

[WARD O]

My opinion on the HP pins--- the bullets I've been throwing weigh in at 107 grains. I don't really want a marked heavier bullet for he 32 Mag. Perhaps the best modification would be to reduce the size of the HP opening. That would put a little more space around the pin for melt to fill and warm the pin tip before the melt solidifies. This appears to be what pin #2 is doing.
This would also strengthen the point for reloading purposes. Keep the HP cavity as deep as is practical.

Pressure pouring with a ladle???? I use an RCBS ladel which I've opened up the spout with a drill so the hole is bigger. I fill the ladel every time and try to match the spout up to the spru plate hole, I start in the horizontal position and turn both hands to verticle to pour, then do it again for the next cavity - is that pressure pouring? This is the technique I've used to pour BIG boolits for my BPCR shooting.

Next time I will apply more heat.

I would be happy to pay for additionaly pins.

I have not tried to reload any of these boolits yet. I did not have any trouble running my few good boolits through my Star - no nose deformation!

Perhaps we should consider revisiting the 32 Keith bullet scheduled for February - after we work out the details here????

Ward

[Blammer]

Ward O, yes that is pressure pouring perfectly proclaimed. :)

[w30wcf]

heat them with a torch prior to casting.

Large pins have a larger thermal capacity and once hot enough they will allow your mold to cast wonderful bullets.

A friend was having trouble getting a good fillout with a Lyman .44 Devastator mold and asked me to give it a try.

I preheated the mold in my toaster oven and when it was ready to go, I applied heat to the hollow point pin with a torch for 10-15 seconds or so. I drop poured the alloy (ww +2%tin) at 800F.
Result: beautifully filled out bullets.:drinks:

And..... it kept making great bullets since the larger pin retained the heat nicely due to its higher thermal capacity.

w30wcf

[Hickory]

These boolits were cast with my pot cranked all the way up and pressure pouring technique used by WARD-O

http://www.fototime.com/AD9713595E3EF5E/medium.jpg (http://www.fototime.com/pictinv/AD9713595E3EF5E)

[WARD O]

Hickory,

Those are looking pretty good! What are you using for alloy? Have you loaded any of your bullets? Any trouble with nose collapse during bullet seating?

I hope to give it another try this weekend - don't seem to find any other time to play with this project. Hopefully, higher temps will do the job as I don't want to change the HP pin too much - meaning I don't want to go much higher with bullet weight.

Ward

[Hickory]

Alloy is about 85% lead, 14% tin and around 1% antimomy.
I have not loaded any yet, but hope to tomorrow. I'll see if I
can scroung up some milk jugs for an expansion test.
I've been trying different things to get the boolits to release
from the hollow point pin and found that Midwat's Drop-out Mould Release (which I think is called something else now) sprayed on the cold pins really does the trick.
Be sure that you don't get any in or on the mould. I tried this in moulds and didn't care for it at all, and forgot I even had it until just the other day.

[EchoSixMike]

That's a heckavalot of tin! S/F......Ken M

[Hickory]

That's a heckavalot of tin! S/F......Ken M

Yea, I got thinking about that last night in bed and I'm wrong.
It's only half that, I added 50-50 instead of a bar of tin.
My mistake folks.[smilie=1:

[WARD O]

So if it's 92-7-1 that would put you somewhere around a BHN of 11-12 and that should be a reasonable alloy for expansion with HP's.

I am trying to work with 50/50 - clip on wheel weights to lead and add a very small amount of tin. This should be a little softer.

Ward

[Hickory]

I got a few loaded up, but found that in this gun the boolit should have been set back to the next crimp ring. I have to force them into the cylinder, but not much.
I'll check my other guns to see if I get a better fit.
Not shot any yet, maybe tomorrow.

http://www.fototime.com/A67F95E7F1D07F4/medium.jpg (http://www.fototime.com/pictinv/A67F95E7F1D07F4)

[SwedeNelson]

Got the HP pins in.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=93293
Naked weight of bullet from each.
Std. HP 101.2Gr.
HP #2 105.6Gr.
HP #3 110.5Gr.

Thanks
Swede Nelson

[mtnman31]

Gents,
I didn't get the HP version because I was leery of trying to cast an HP out of this smaller bullet.
I know that it isn't discussed very often becasue it is sort of a pain to use and not always the most consistent way to HP bullets, but I use the Forster case trimmer (w/ bullet hollow pointer) for smaller bullets. It can be finicky and tough to get completely consistent results but the hollow pointer works well for smaller bullets that are harder to cast in the form of HP. Personally, I am willing to accept and work through the hollow pointer's short comings because I mostly load the HPs for hunting and testing purposes and therefore am not loading in larger quantities like the solids I use for plinking. For those unfamiliar with it, the Forster hollow pointer is basically a drill bit that you use to drill a cavity into the bullet. The bullet is loaded into the round first then the round is placed into the trimmer and the cavity drilled. The pros are that you can vary the depth of the cavity from a shallow divot to a deep hole and you can hollow point bullet designs that aren't available in hollow points for much cheaper that it costs to have the mold modified. The cons are that you are limited on cavity diameters/shapes and that it takes a bit of practice to get consistent results. Anyone else who uses the hollow pointer feel free to chime in. I'd like to know if anyone has tried it out with this particular bullet.

Having said all that, I doubt I will be HP'ing many of these anyways since I bought the mold mainly to try out in the Nagant pistol and 30 Carbine pistol. The 30 Carbine has some potential use for the HP but the Nagant is such a low velocity round that I doubt I will personally have little use for a hollow point.

BTW - Swede, thanks for another great mold. I am very happy with mine.

[btroj]

Got my rg4 today. Cast it with 2 flat nose and 2 hp pins. After cleaning it well and heating it I cast 100 or so bullets. Lots of wrinkle, bad noses on the hp.
Added a bit more shot and tin to the alloy to harden it up as the first batch was too soft. Got the mold teally got, cranked pot up full and let em rip.
Got some very good solids and hp. Mold seems to like to be run hot and fast. Lost a few when the base broke coming out of the cavities. I am willing to accept this loss if it means I am getting 80% or better acceptance rate.

Mold needs some getting used to but I did not find it difficult once I understood wha tthe mold wanted.

Brad

[hicard]

Just purchased my first 32 H&R Magnum revolver and am wondering how this bullet is working out for you loaders? I plan on loading it as soon as my dies and cases arrive. What loads are you all using with Unique, 2400 or Bullseye?

[Rusty W]

I've cast about 100 of the flat nose so far. I couldn't get the HP to fill out but have new pins ready and waiting for this weekend when I have time to cast some. So far here's what I've tried with the FNPB boolit.

3.5gr 231..CCI std primer...crimped in the 1st groove from the top....2" group roughly
3.5gr Herco....same as above....4" group roughly
2.6gr Trailboss...same as above..3" group roughly
7.0gr 2400.........same as above..2" group roughly
9.0gr H110.........same as above..2.5" group roughly

These were shot from a ruger baby vaquero fixed sight. I was sitting with the gun rested on my knee. Target was a paper plate about 20yds away. 6 shots for each group. I have a chronograph but the battery was dead and I had no 9vlt in the house & didn't want to go to town, yes I live in the country and can shoot off my back porch.
I have more testing to do and have some more made up but haven't got the chance to light the sparkplug on them yet. Maybe this weekend. Here's what I've got up next to try.

2.5gr.....Clays
3.0gr.....RedDot
9.0gr....LILGun
4.0gr....AA#5
Still have more powders to try, Power Pistol, HS6, Universal, Unique, AA#7, PB & then there's some IMR can's I can't remember the #'s on. Soooo many options and so little time. Looks to be a long project. But a fun one.

[Dark Helmet]

Try AA#7, AA #9, 800X. Lil Gun, H110 you might be a little light on;)

[WARD O]

I have been shooting 12 gr H110 with a cast 100 SWC with no signs of pressure and easy extraction. You have some room to increase with your H110. These were fired in a Ruger baby Vaquero.

I have also been using 4.5 grains Herco with the same 100 gr SWC with excellent results. I have not run them over the chronograph but would estimate velocity of this load as a little over 1000 fps. Again in my Ruger vaquero.

Ward

[Rusty W]

The new pins #2 & #3 made it in the mail yesterday. I had a chance to cast some after work today. I have about 7lbs in just over 2hrs of work. This is the 3rd time I've used the NOE mold and it's getting better for me to use. This is my first mold from NOE & has been a learning experiance. I'm liking it a lot better since I've tried the new pins. I cast hot, about 775-800 until the sprue gets a 6 count to solidify. I then back down the temp to 725-750 and cast away trying to keep a steady pace, not lighting fast but no dilly dallying around either. One thing I'd like to try is a sprue plate that swings to the right. I turn the mold upside down to let the boolits fall on a towl. With the mold in my left hand, I could rotate it to the right a 1/4 turn, break the sprue & empty boolits all in one motion. Anyway back to the boolits. I'm very pleased with the design & the mold. Now just gotta size'em put some BAC in the groove, load & shoot.

Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics, but you get the idea.

[btroj]

Yep, heat is your friend with this mould. My rg4 with original pins works well once I get it hot enough. Good fill out of hp and everything but hot, hot, hot is the key.

[Zeus]

PM sent about getting new pins. Thanks GS

[Newtire]

Yep, heat is your friend with this mould. My rg4 with original pins works well once I get it hot enough. Good fill out of hp and everything but hot, hot, hot is the key.

What is your method for heating the pins?

[btroj]

I dipped the mold on end about 1/4 inch into the melt as it was coming to final temp. Held it there for about 30 seconds. Then cast a few bullets with a 5 second or so dip in the melt each time. Kept doing this for a minute or two, by then the pins had taken on a distinct color rather than being the shiny metal they were when new.
I am a pretty by the seat of your pants kind of guy. No hot plate, no thermometer. Just use a by seat of my pants approach.

However you decide to do it, just get the melt hot and get the mold hot. Once I had that and got a motion/ routine down for flipping the mold leer Blammers instruction here, it all went well. I did put a small amount of bullplage in the end of the pins where the slide in the holder on the bottom of the mold.

Good luck, once you get the hang of the mold, it is a great design.

Brad

[2 dogs]

I switched my mold and cast some solids and it did do better. I got that sucker plenty hot tho!

SWEEDE! Wheres my other HP pins???

[SwedeNelson]

2 dogs

Shipped them all out.
PM sent.

Swede Nelson

[btroj]

I have no interest I new hp pins. I am very satisfied with what the mold came with. Get that bad boy hot and let em rip.
I have a feeling it will be an awesome varmint boolit. It also makes for an awesome looking round.

Brad

[SwedeNelson]

2 dogs

Out in the mail today.
Sorry for my screw up.
PM sent.

Swede Nelson

[Ramslammer]

G'Day All
I got the Toad to reduce the pins by 40 thou and they cast perfect. I have no complaints as Swede delivered the mold we all agreed on. Thanks to you Swede as without your work we wouldn't be casting any Smoking Hot 32/20 bullets. I've loaded a few ready for a encounter with some wallaby, I don't think they will be too happy that Swede made this mold. By the way Swede if you read this have you any molds left as one of the blokes here would be interested even just a FN.
Juddy

[SwedeNelson]

Ramslammer

Have some here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=93293

Thanks
Swede Nelson

[2 dogs]

Swede, my thanks to you!

[Zeus]

I still want some more pins also Swede. Please keep me posted as to when I can get one of the smaller HP pins.

[seppos]

Friend of mine tested some of the Smoking hot HP:s in his IJ-18 rifle.
Powder was VV N310 and the loads where 6, 8 and 10 grains.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/5287/bullet1.jpg
Penetration to a wet newspaper was about 6 inches.

He also tested the same bullets with silicone filling in the HP cavity..
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3541/bullet2f.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5168/bullet3.jpg
Penetration was about 5 inches.

Holes in the paper..
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/5710/aaaarn.jpg

Left is with silicone filling and right the plane HP.. Depth is about an inch from the surface..

The allow in these where almost pure lead with some little added tin.

S

PS. Sorry about small size.. That was it when I got the pics.