LEVERS and LEAD

[Win86]

Looks like a good place to ask about levers and hunting with lead. I have several hundred new 45 caliber 300gr flat point bullets for the old 45-70 cartridge; they were poured using #2 Lyman and shoot terrific in my 1886 Winchester. Being on the hard side, would there be limitations to using these for hunting deer or maybe smallish black bears should I incounter one as we have an abundance here. Expansion I'm thinking would be zero to minimal but being .459 already, is expansion really needed? Someone have experience with these?

Win86

[Old Goat Keeper]

No actual experience here with that bullet in 45-70 but from what everyone else posts here and on Marlin Owners that bullet willl do just fine. A bit softer would be really good but they should just punch thru and DRT on game.

Tom

[jh45gun]

The bullet is big enough that even if it does not expand any no big deal it does a number as is.

[KirkD]

I've taken several deer with 45-70 lever guns and I'm pretty skeptical that any of the cast bullets have ever expanded at the slow velocities they are plugging along at. Yet, they do the job just fine. I'm sure the bullet is big enough in diameter that I wouldn't worry about it and with that 300 grain bullet, the holes will come in pairs, as Snooky Williamson once said.

[excess650]

I recovered 40cal 175gr bullets shot into an older "vest". It had been draped over a hard-backed chair and fired into at 15 yards. Despite being harder than Lyman #2, and MV 1000fps, they did expand.

I'm waiting for a group buy 45-350gr for my Marlin, but would expect the 300gr to do just fine on deer and most black bears.

[btroj]

Iva hot deer and bear with 350, 405, and 425 gr bullets in my Marlin 45-70. Near as I can tell the bullets didn't slow down ouch less stop. Hard or soft, you are going to be fine.
I prefer a bit heavier bullet for hunting but have no doubt you will shoot thru any deer you see on a broadside shot. Don't need high velocity either, even at 1500 fps it will knock em dead if you do your part.
Brad

[Win86]

Appreciate all the replies and about what I thought too. As velocities are almost 1500-fps and with energy still above the 1000 ft lbs @ 100yds no reason they shouldn't work ok If these black bears keep coming around the place a few will become sausage. Now to go out and do it!

Win86

[zuke]

Anything that can walk away with an almost 1/2 hole right thru it shouldn't be hunted.
Call in artillery and let'em have fun.

[Snapping Twig]

I agree with Zuke.

If a 240g .44 @ 1200fps can do the job, I don't see why a 300g .45 at 1500fps wouldn't.

[kawalekm]

I cast Lyman's 358477 in Lyman's #2 and at .357 rifle velocities (1800fps) it will mushroom in wet newspaper just like a jacketed bullet will. I'm expecting your bullet to do the same when pushed to the same or more velocity.

I'd suggest doing the same. Load up some of your 300 grain bullets, shoot at some piles of wet pulp, and measure what happens. No, it isn't real flesh or ballistic gelatin, but it's better than guessing! Remember, these same lead bullets almost caused the extinction of the American bison. It'll work!

[thx997303]

Not sure how hard it is to penetrate, but my 350 gr Ranch Dog boolits doing 1300 fps penetrate 3 feet of damp wood mulch and flatten on the steel plate at the back.

The wood mulch was placed 100 yards away.

These boolits were cast of WW alloy.

[Win86]

Wow, that is good performance! Thanks for posting.

Win86

[missionary5155]

If you cast wth 40-1 I garentee it will expand at 1100 fps. That is what I shoot out of my 44-40 and they all expand at the nose whether fired into fine sand, through cactus or 100 pound dogs. 220 grain flatnose with 8 grains Unique in my 1892 SRC.
The old BP load with a 300 grainer was not much faster than 1200 fps but cast with 40-1 would expanf if it hit any bone or tough muscle (like moose and beer). Deer ribs and lung tissue really offers little resistence. But smack a shoulder or spine and that deer is gonna have a 1"+ exit hole to leak out.

[thx997303]

Oh, I just remembered, I missed a prairie dog in wyoming at about 100 yards, and I recovered the boolit.

It was roughly 1 1/2 - 2' into the hard packed dirt, and looked like a full wadcutter.

This was with the same boolit and load I mentioned in my earlier post.

[Win86]

Glad to see I am not the only nut shooting at PD's with the 45-70. When learning how to post pictures, I'll show a few field shots.

Win86

[redgum]

Glad to see I am not the only nut shooting at PD's with the 45-70. When learning how to post pictures, I'll show a few field shots.

Win86

Now THAT will be good viewing Win86, I cant wait!

[Win86]

This dog was 112 yds measured with the leica BRF 10x40's and partially hidden behind the mound, alas the head shot was all I had. Got him on the second try with the 86 in 45-90.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/ricnelson/PDand4590.jpg

[redgum]

That made me grin so much the mrs came over to check it out too & now even she's grinning.
Nice Shooting Win86! ,...but judging by the look on your face, you already know that :)
Congratulations, and thanks for sharing

[Win86]

Regum,
Here's another but with an old Trapdoor 45-70. About 130-yds after 3 or 4 tries as this rifle shoots high due to stock military sites. 45 hole clean threw no expansion. Load used; 25.5 of 5744 and the Lee 405 HB. - Win86

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/ricnelson/DSCN2340-crop2.jpg

[dunkel]

.45 70 on prairie dogs? Um...I reckon that'd be a tad bit of overkill, no?

[thx997303]

Meh, it's fun.

I had the choice of using an M91/30, an SKS, or my 45-70.

The Mosin would have done just fine, but I don't reload for it yet and didn't have much ammo. Aside from which it's long and heavy.

The SKS is not really accurate enough for prairie dogs if you ask me. Not with cheapy surplus ammo.

The 45-70, well I have a good load that is plenty accurate, the rifle is nice and light and compact.

So I used the 45-70 and killed several prairie dogs with it.

If it aint overkill for paper, then it aint overkill for any animals if you ask me.

[KirkD]

This dog was 112 yds ... alas the head shot was all I had. Got him on the second try with the 86 in 45-90.
Head shot on a PD at 112 yds is some mighty fine shooting!

[dunkel]

Meh, it's fun.

I had the choice of using an M91/30, an SKS, or my 45-70.

The Mosin would have done just fine, but I don't reload for it yet and didn't have much ammo. Aside from which it's long and heavy.

The SKS is not really accurate enough for prairie dogs if you ask me. Not with cheapy surplus ammo.

The 45-70, well I have a good load that is plenty accurate, the rifle is nice and light and compact.

So I used the 45-70 and killed several prairie dogs with it.

If it aint overkill for paper, then it aint overkill for any animals if you ask me.

Well, it's better than underkill when you're shooting at live targets, I suppose. I've wasted plenty of big bullets on small stuff over the years. It's just funny to hear one extreme of people taking elephant with the .45/70 and then see someone hunting prairie dog at the other extreme.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Always use enough gun ! Those pesky varmets are liable to stampede at any moment and try to overrun your position.

[dunkel]

Good morning
Always use enough gun ! Those pesky varmets are liable to stampede at any moment and try to overrun your position.

In that case, you're going to definitely something more than a single shot.

[Win86]

Trying to hit these little buggers is more a test of my ability than anything else, not something to waste bullets on that's for sure! Having several pre-98 45-70's, I get tired of just shooting paper with them so shooting a Pd once in awhile shows my old eyes can still hit one with open sites, although blurry for sure! Of course it takes more than one shot most of the time...When we go PD shooting with our varmint rifles I like taking one or two 45's along. On this trip, think 5 or 6 dogs met their demise for the 20-25 rounds fired. Next time out, plan to try my little 25-20 lever 92 as cost of shooting that one is very cheap with Unique and cast boolit.

Win86

[Grapeshot]

Looks like a good place to ask about levers and hunting with lead. I have several hundred new 45 caliber 300gr flat point bullets for the old 45-70 cartridge; they were poured using #2 Lyman and shoot terrific in my 1886 Winchester. Being on the hard side, would there be limitations to using these for hunting deer or maybe smallish black bears should I incounter one as we have an abundance here. Expansion I'm thinking would be zero to minimal but being .459 already, is expansion really needed? Someone have experience with these?

Win86

The three hundred grain bullet is just fine on deer and black bear. That bullet is my choice for my .45-60 but it works well with my .45-70 roller. That .45 hole in anything should slow them down quite a bit if you hit them in the right spot. As with any game animal, it's not how big a hole you put in them, it's where, and how much damage you can inflict with that first hit.

[Win86]

Got to love the 45-60! What rifle do you have? Mine is an old Win 1876 round barrel made in 1881 and she still shoots very well useing 300gr pure soft bullets. I do hold velocities about 1300, not pushing the stock and those old toggles!

Win86

[rintinglen]

Those prarie dogs... they're dangerous when they're wounded....

[ghh3rd]

Hey Win86, weren't you afraid he'd rear up and bite your hand, holding him like that? :)

[Win86]

Naaa, just his fleas cause' they bite!

Win86

[Pioneer2]

Bubonic plague.......... etc

[home in oz]

I have used a .54 on squirrels several times.

Does not feel at all like overkill.

It gets the job done.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Whats the best gun fer vermin? The one you can get your hands on quick. My Trapdoor will be doing some BP hunting. I fancy using a Lyman Gould Mould and yes, I will use it to shoot rabbits, foxes and feral cats.

[Matt_G]

Be careful hunting them varmints. They can be dangerous as stated before by rintinglen.
Case in point; read about Larry Gibson's terrifying experience here (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=864706&postcount=3) :p

[pls1911]

HAH! What a hoot!
Can't seem to have "fun shoots" with 45-70 in my neck of Texas except at limetone rocks and pigs, and an occasional deer. Now, don't get me wrong... I enjoy making powder from limestone, but prarie dogs would be just clean American FUN>>>
I could actually use up all my old 45-70 and 30-30 ammo lobbing lead at prairy dogs.
That's a great idea!
Need to research New Mexico BLM and make some phone calls.

[FromTheWoods]

From time to time, even the courageous get the shakes. That was too close, Larry! We're lucky you're still with us!

[Capn Jack]

You think that's over kill. Shucks, I kill paper all of the time with 420gr.GC out of an AR15.:kidding:;-)