boolit hardening...?

[j23]

Last season, I experienced fantasic results shooting several deer with my cast bullets about probably 1900fps, with complete broadside penetration and what appeard to be [from examining the wound] ridiculous expansion.

The other day, I was at my bench loading up the last of about 200 bullets (311041) that I had sized and lubed for my 30-30 last summer. My buddy, who is one of those walking books of useless knowledge, stated that the straight wheelweight lead would have gradually hardended over the past 15 or so months, increasing it's BHN, potentially to the point where it would no longer expand!?

Is there any truth to that statement?? Mine checked out about about 11 or 12 BHN last year... would they be harder this year??

:lovebooli

[RobS]

Your WW bullets will age harden to the point where they stabilize out (usually 2 to 4 weeks). The 11-12 BHN that your readings showed you are typical for air cooled WW alloy and such alloy usually stabilizes at that hardness............... meaning it won’t become any harder.

[HeavyMetal]

I'll go along with RobS if your boolits hit 14 BHN pat yourself on the back!

I'll also tell you not to worry about to much expansion. In my opinion your boolit performed as it should.

The only time I would wory about the expansion issue is if you were hunting dangerous game Like Cape Bufflao , Lion or Elephant!

In these case's you want penatration and no expansion whatsoever!

For game in the CONUS I think your 11 / 12 BHN will be just fine.

For proof of that tell us how far you had to track that Deer?

If it was less than 100 yards don't fix what ain't broke!

[j23]

Good, thats exactly what I wanted to hear... Those deer ran may 30-50 feet.. MAX after the hit, and piled up like cordwood. The bullets had performed PERFECTLY.. which was my worry... according to Encylopedia Friend, the bullets would continue to harden.. I liked them just the way they were. So it sounds like Im good to go. Thanks again!

[MtGun44]

If you heat treat lead it will harden relatively quickly - like days or less - to near the max
hardness. IIRC it will then harden a bit more in the weeks to months time scale, and then
finally soften with age over the years time scale.

If you just air cooled wheel wts, my experience is what you get is what you get.

Bill

[Bret4207]

What the guys said is correct, plus there is a difference in "hardness" and "ductility". Depending on the alloy and treatment we can have a relatively hard boolit that is ductile and will expand well at a given speed or an equally hard boolit that doesn't expand at the same speed and another that may shatter depending on what you hit. Encyclopedia Man needs to spend some time reading up and experimenting before pronouncing judgment.

[j23]

So, for Bret, who suggested that they do indeed harden and change ductability, are we talking on a minute scale, or a significant scale?

I suppose ultimately, Im wondering, if I shoot another deer this season with boolits that I cast last year (3 months before the season, which performed EXCELLENTLY..) can I expect the same performance?

Thanks!

[Gohon]

If your casts were air cooled they will reach their maximum hardness in a couple weeks and even then it would be only 1 or 2 points at the most. Oven heat treating will increase the hardness over several weeks but is dependent on heating temperature and the increase can range from 3-15 or more points and as mentioned dependent on heat temperature used. At least this is my understanding........

[Bret4207]

I would think you'll get about the same results given the same size deer, range, shot placement. And I didn't mean to imply AC alloys harden over time, if I did. After 2-3 weeks what you got is what you'll get. Quite the opposite occurs with quenched boolits, they actually soften over time, or so we're told. It takes decades.

[45 2.1]

You guys should try a long term test for yourself cause what you saying and what it actually does don't match.

[mdi]

I believe the effect of the Lyman 311041 on game is from the flat nose. The wound channel is from nose shape not bullet expansion on this bullet; the wide meplat doing the damage.

[Gohon]

You guys should try a long term test for yourself cause what you saying and what it actually does don't match.

Ok......so what does it really do? Or is that some kind of family secret your not willing to expand on?

[lwknight]

I have experienced the same with plain air cooled alloy. It is not as active with WW alloy as in higher antimony content alloy. They do harden noticeably for several weeks then if the tin content is high enough they can soften a little over years.

I wish I had a gotten a hardness tester 10 years ago so I could be more specific and scientific.

To the OP. In answer to the question: Your boolits will not likely harden enough to prevent a satisfactory terminal ballistic event ( fresh venison in the pan ) .

[45 2.1]

Ok......so what does it really do? Or is that some kind of family secret your not willing to expand on?

Been expanded on many times here. Its in the archives.......... But for the folks who don't want to read....... Alloys (with antimony in them and some other common impurities) harden for some considerable time (I gave up the last one after two years of testing and it still was hardening slowly) after casting. Greatly at first then slower as time goes on.

As for the crack about family secrets, i've expanded on a lot of things. Nobody asks questions about them. One could asume several things about that. There are other things to be said, but this is a family forum and I can't really expand on that. It would do many of you good to read what has been already said..... many things are there to help you.

[Gohon]

That may be so but you made a dead end statement expressing ignorance or laziness of everyone except yourself in this thread without explanation. That requires at least the courtesy, if not a obligation to explain the statement. If I wanted to hunt archives all day I could but that is not what a forum is all about, although there has been times I have hunted the archives when there is no general discussion going on about the subject I'm interested in. Not a easy thing to do even with the best of search engines. I suspect there is not a single question that can now be asked in these forums that has not already been asked and addressed in the past.

My comment was not meant to throw rocks or start a fight but to get a answer as to where all of us are so wrong in your mind. Still there was no real answer so without a choice I'm obligated to continue to listen to those you say are wrong as well as the experts, such as those at LASC, (which seems to contradict your comment) whom have stated that after a period of time heat treated casts will start to revert back to their original hardness through a long time process. Like I said, no argument from me but just like everyone else I want to learn but that is only possible if a comment is explained at least in part.

[cbrick]

A few years back I discovered a few boxes of boolits under the loading bench I had put away and forgotten. They were oven heat treated, boxes labeled with alloy (CWW +2% Sn), date and final BHN. When put away 10 years earlier they were 30 BHN and kept at room temp in the cabinet for those years. I thought they would be putty by now but they tested 26 BHN. So yes, they did age soften but not much and very slowly. A significantly higher percentage of Sn should cause them to age soften a bit more quickly.

Air cooled bullets (depending on alloy of course) will gain most of their hardness within a few weeks then continue to harden very slowly. Once they reach their highest BHN reading they will age soften very slowly for a number of years. While your air cooled hunting bullets from last year may technically have minor crystalline structure changes (the reason for hardness changes) any terminal ballistic changes should be insignificant, doubtful you will be able to tell any difference at all. Long range revolver testing taught me that minor differences in BHN (1 or 2 BHN) had little to no effect on groups, but larger BHN differences within the same 5 shot group would destroy groups.

More recently I have been experimenting with Roto Metals Super Hard and air cooled bullets. One alloy using CWW, Sn and SH was 13 BHN three days after casting, two weeks after casting still 13 BHN so I thought that was it but in four weeks they were 14 BHN. 10 bullets tested for each test and averaged. 1 BHN isn't much and means little but did prove that they were indeed still hardening, slowly.

Rick

[Bret4207]

You guys should try a long term test for yourself cause what you saying and what it actually does don't match.

I have a batch of ACWW boolits that are 12 years old. I haven't tested any in a year or so, but they gained very little over that period between now and about a month after casting. I'm sure there are changes, but they aren't huge.