Hello my name is Art Keys and I'd like to run some question by you gentleman.......

[bigwhack416remingtonmagnum]

I think this is my first post here.:wink:

I have some idea's, that I'd like to run past the members here for two reasons:
(1) everyone here has so much more experience with cast boolits than I do.
(2) I need to know if my thinking is outta line and getting me into trouble.

I have two very wonderful military bolt-action rifles. A 1912 CG Swedish Mauser and a 1891 (1893 mfr) Argentine Mauser. Both rifles are all matching with great smooth bores, no pitting and rifling still looks great and pronounced. I want to shoot lead boolits in them because I heard once from a older gun club member that cast boolits won't wear out the last life of a used barrel. Now if there is any truth to this I do not know. I just want to preserve these rifles and keep them shooting for the next 45 yrs. I'm 41 now and hope that I can make them last till I'm to old to pick them up. They will be going to my daughter and Son when I'm gone. Plus looking at dia. sizes I can shoot a lot of soft cast production pistol bullets in the 1891 7.65.53 Mauser.

Question (1) for the Swedish mauser:

I have some Gardner's cache bullets,...(Lee Cruise Missiles) I have sorted them into 4 weight groups: 176,177,178,180, that's what the box yielded. I slugged my barrel at the crown and yielded 255 /256 lands and 267 on groove dia. Now the throat as best as I can tell from the cast bullet I tapped down it reads, 267: Is that possible?

Since my barrel groove dia. is the same as the production bullets dia. from Gardner's I should be safe, ....right?

I wanted to shoot these at 25 and 50 yards only and wanted to keep the velocity in the 1200 to 1400 FPS range. I bought some IMR SR4759 and IMR 4227. Since I cannot fined a published start and Max load with these rifles in my reloading manuals: With these powders. I extrapolated this powder charge from looking at my Lyman 49th ed. manual. It list 16.5 grains for SR4759 and 17.5 for 4227 using a 150 grain bullet. I wanted to start safe and try 12gr. Please give me your thoughts on this starting load. My friend at the club said that if it bothered me that the powder was not being held at the back of the case to just take a single layer of appropriate sized toilet tissue and use it to hold the powder to the rear of the case.

Question (2) for the Swedish Mauser:

I also bought some #2 buckshot (.270 dia.) and I'm looking for a sizer to sewage them down to .267/.268 dia. to make small round ball loads with 8 grains of Unique. Please let me know if this is a bad Idea. The reason for this is my wife will not shoot 22lr rifles. In her words, " I wanna shoot the battle rifles" Well to get her there I thought it would be good to work up light loads, starting with the RB gallery loads and progress up the ladder so to speak till she's comfortable with the recoil of rifles and able to move on to the full power service loads. She wants to shoot with my Military BR group at the club. We have 7 other lady's that shoot it. She wants to join in.

Now for the 1891 7.65x53 Argentine Mauser.

(1) I have not slugged the bore yet, at the throat and muzzle. I will be getting some pure lead egg fishing weights and adjusting them to work for numbers on dimension. I want to try those Lapua (.314) 98gr. match pistol wad cutters in it for a nice little 25 yard round. Mostly just for fun. plus you get 500 to a box:mrgreen:. Is their anything that stands out to you guy's "Right off", that this is a dangerous idea? I also want to use 10 grains of Unique and Unique up to the right load:-D. Or is that to much ?

(2) Also for this rifle I want to make up a RB gallery load. using (.315) RB from Hornady. is (.001) over groove dia. going to get me into trouble with a round ball.?

Thank You very much guys for taking the time to read and lend your thoughts.

Sincerely Art Keys

[uncle joe]

Welcome aboard, I can't give you much advise on your questions, but someone here can I'm sure.
And you win the prize for the longest screen name here HAHA
P.S. Casting is VERY addictive, welcome to the largest group of enablers for it on the web.

[bigwhack416remingtonmagnum]

Thanks Joe,...The name comes from a story Ross Seyfried once told about the 416RM in Africa. See I was In love with everything, "Africa" in 1988. I was straight out of high school and that summer I walked into a gun store in McPherson Ks. Hanging on the wall was a Ruger No.1 in 416 Remington Magnum. Truth, I wanted it sooo badly, and yes it was my first real rifle besides 22lr. He let me put it on Layaway for the summer. Mowed Lawns and what ever. Well he sold me 4 boxes of Safari loads from remington for 40 bucks apiece. Barnes Solids. I asked him why I was getting such a great deal, he said "You'll Find Out SOON enough". I weighed 145 lbs. It was glorious:) I shot two rounds into osage orange stumps just to dig out the slugs. Made one into my own necklace. It was beautiful. Then I met girls and finally got married. Then Prices went NUTZ in the gun world and I can't afford to shoot it as much as I liked.

[9.3X62AL]

[QUOTE=bigwhack416remingtonmagnum;996004 Then Prices went NUTZ in the gun world and I can't afford to shoot it as much as I liked.[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the board, and that last sentence explains why more than half of us are here! :)

I'm just getting a start with the 6.5 x 55 and castings myself, so can't offer a lot of advice to assist. I have no experience with the Argie, either. There are a number of folks here very deeply experienced with both chamberings, though--they'll be along shortly.

[Larry Gibson]

bigwhack416remingtonmagnum

Question (1) for the Swedish mauser:

I have some Gardner's cache bullets,...(Lee Cruise Missiles)

I've not tested the CMs yet so i have no input for that, I'm sure others do though.

Question (2) for the Swedish Mauser:

I also bought some #2 buckshot (.270 dia.) and I'm looking for a sizer to sewage them down to .267/.268 dia. to make small round ball loads with 8 grains of Unique. Please let me know if this is a bad Idea.

It is a great idea:-) However, you do not need to size the buckshot as the .270 diameter works just fine. I have sized them and didn't find any difference. It is best to use dedicated cases that are very well fire formed and have the flash holes drilled out with a # 30 or # 28 drill. The #28 is the largest and the largest that should be used. Drilling the flash holes prevents the primer explosion from driving the case forward and setting the shoulder back which creates headspace problems and potential misfires. I mark the case head with a red magic marker of such cases. Also once the cases are neck sized and the case mouths belled there won't be enough psi to obturate the case. Thus you can just reprime and charge the cases with powder and then thumb seat (I push them in against the edge of the loading bench so 1/2 the buckshot is seated) the buckshot. No crimp is needed. I load them over 3.5 gr Bullseye (Bullseye works much better than Unique for such loads) which pushes them at 1400 fps out of my M38s. Accuracy is 1/2" 5 shot groups at 50 feet and 1" at 25 yards. They are great (little noise and no recoil) for plinking and pest removal. I've shot them at 50 yards and they bounce pop cans around but I've not put them on paper that far. BTW; I tumble lube the buckshot in LLA. My M38s will feed these rounds if only one is loaded in the mag on the right side. That makes it basically a two shooter for field use.

Now for the 1891 7.65x53 Argentine Mauser.

(1) I have not slugged the bore yet, at the throat and muzzle. I will be getting some pure lead egg fishing weights and adjusting them to work for numbers on dimension. I want to try those Lapua (.314) 98gr. match pistol wad cutters in it for a nice little 25 yard round. Mostly just for fun. plus you get 500 to a box:mrgreen:. Is their anything that stands out to you guy's "Right off", that this is a dangerous idea? I also want to use 10 grains of Unique and Unique up to the right load:-D. Or is that to much ?

That is too much powder. Again, use Bullseye as it works much better with such loads. I use 3.2 gr Bullseye under the Hornady or Speer HBWCs or, preferably the 90 gr Hornady SWC or the Lee TL314-90-SWC. Velocity is in the 800 – 900 fps range and my M91/M1909s shoot into 1 – 1 ½” at 50 yards with such loads. I shoot thousands of these bullets in various .30s and .31s with great success. Again, dedicated cases that are well fire formed with flash holes drilled work best.

(2) Also for this rifle I want to make up a RB gallery load. using (.315) RB from Hornady. is (.001) over groove dia. going to get me into trouble with a round ball.?

They can work ok but again the dedicated well fire formed cases with flash holes drilled will work the best. TL the RBs with LLA and test over 2.5 – 3.5 gr Bullseye. However, once you see the accuracy of the WC/SWCs you will quit using the RBs in the 7.65. A Lee 6 cavity TL314-90-SWC and the lee .314 sizer is all that’s needed for tons of fun

Larry Gibson

[missionary5155]

Greetings and WELCOME Bigwack !
The general rule of thumb I opperate by is to always figure at least .0015 over throat diameter. I check throats by inserting a tight fitted soft slug from the breach which gets supported by a empty case with a wood or brass dowel inserted in the case up to the case mouth.
Next a brass rod close to the bore size gets inserted on top of the boolit sitting in the rifles throat. A 2# hammer now smacks the rod end twice which ususallly upsets the slug forming a near perfect throat slug. Micrometer next goes to work and I add .0015 to that measurment. Sometimes in the smaller bores .001 is plenty. Bores caliber.30 and above are happy with .002 oversize.. but again it hurts not to experiment as a smaller size may be better. All bores are unique.
I started shooting cast because dad shot cast.. I am still shooting cast because I like making my own stuff..

[bigwhack416remingtonmagnum]

1891 7.65x53 Argentine Mauser slugging results.

Ok guys I have slugged my bore and here are the results.

Muzzle slugs. 2 slugs, and both read .302 and .302. I did it twice just to be sure.
Throat slugs. 2 slugs,..and groove reads, .313 twice. throat rifling height was .010 to .011 when subtracted from groove dia. All measurements were measure 4 times on each slug . trying for good consistency.

With rifling height being in the .010 to .011 range should mean the barrel wasn't shot alot?

[bigwhack416remingtonmagnum]

bigwhack416remingtonmagnum

Question (1) for the Swedish mauser:

I have some Gardner's cache bullets,...(Lee Cruise Missiles)

I've not tested the CMs yet so i have no input for that, I'm sure others do though.

Question (2) for the Swedish Mauser:

I also bought some #2 buckshot (.270 dia.) and I'm looking for a sizer to sewage them down to .267/.268 dia. to make small round ball loads with 8 grains of Unique. Please let me know if this is a bad Idea.

It is a great idea:-) However, you do not need to size the buckshot as the .270 diameter works just fine. I have sized them and didn't find any difference. It is best to use dedicated cases that are very well fire formed and have the flash holes drilled out with a # 30 or # 28 drill. The #28 is the largest and the largest that should be used. Drilling the flash holes prevents the primer explosion from driving the case forward and setting the shoulder back which creates headspace problems and potential misfires. I mark the case head with a red magic marker of such cases. Also once the cases are neck sized and the case mouths belled there won't be enough psi to obturate the case. Thus you can just reprime and charge the cases with powder and then thumb seat (I push them in against the edge of the loading bench so 1/2 the buckshot is seated) the buckshot. No crimp is needed. I load them over 3.5 gr Bullseye (Bullseye works much better than Unique for such loads) which pushes them at 1400 fps out of my M38s. Accuracy is 1/2" 5 shot groups at 50 feet and 1" at 25 yards. They are great (little noise and no recoil) for plinking and pest removal. I've shot them at 50 yards and they bounce pop cans around but I've not put them on paper that far. BTW; I tumble lube the buckshot in LLA. My M38s will feed these rounds if only one is loaded in the mag on the right side. That makes it basically a two shooter for field use.

Now for the 1891 7.65x53 Argentine Mauser.

(1) I have not slugged the bore yet, at the throat and muzzle. I will be getting some pure lead egg fishing weights and adjusting them to work for numbers on dimension. I want to try those Lapua (.314) 98gr. match pistol wad cutters in it for a nice little 25 yard round. Mostly just for fun. plus you get 500 to a box:mrgreen:. Is their anything that stands out to you guy's "Right off", that this is a dangerous idea? I also want to use 10 grains of Unique and Unique up to the right load:-D. Or is that to much ?

That is too much powder. Again, use Bullseye as it works much better with such loads. I use 3.2 gr Bullseye under the Hornady or Speer HBWCs or, preferably the 90 gr Hornady SWC or the Lee TL314-90-SWC. Velocity is in the 800 – 900 fps range and my M91/M1909s shoot into 1 – 1 ½” at 50 yards with such loads. I shoot thousands of these bullets in various .30s and .31s with great success. Again, dedicated cases that are well fire formed with flash holes drilled work best.

(2) Also for this rifle I want to make up a RB gallery load. using (.315) RB from Hornady. is (.001) over groove dia. going to get me into trouble with a round ball.?

They can work ok but again the dedicated well fire formed cases with flash holes drilled will work the best. TL the RBs with LLA and test over 2.5 – 35 gr Bullseye. However, once you see the accuracy of the WC/SWCs you will quit using the RBs in the 7.65. A Lee 6 cavity TL314-90-SWC and the lee .314 sizer is all that’s needed for tons of fun

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson,.....Truely Thank You for your reply. It answered all my questions. Especially the tip about special cases with altered flash holes. Trying to erase the primer protrusion and altering case headspacing change,...i got it TY...:mrgreen:

I think I'll try the production bullets at least one box of the WC in the Argie and RB in the Swede. After 500 of each then I'll start getting moulds and see how I cast my first bullets.

Everyone thank you, sincerely Art Keys

[bigwhack416remingtonmagnum]

Greetings and WELCOME Bigwack !
The general rule of thumb I opperate by is to always figure at least .0015 over throat diameter. I check throats by inserting a tight fitted soft slug from the breach which gets supported by a empty case with a wood or brass dowel inserted in the case up to the case mouth.
Next a brass rod close to the bore size gets inserted on top of the boolit sitting in the rifles throat. A 2# hammer now smacks the rod end twice which ususallly upsets the slug forming a near perfect throat slug. Micrometer next goes to work and I add .0015 to that measurment. Sometimes in the smaller bores .001 is plenty. Bores caliber.30 and above are happy with .002 oversize.. but again it hurts not to experiment as a smaller size may be better. All bores are unique.
I started shooting cast because dad shot cast.. I am still shooting cast because I like making my own stuff..

Missionary5155

Thank you for replying. :cbpour:

[9.3X62AL]

I measure land diameter with a pin gauge, but slugging and careful measurements can yield good land dimensions.

I am assuming here that your .302" measurement is indeed the land diameter, and the .313" at throat. These are pretty standard 7.65mm measurements. Remember--there are TWO lands across from each other in Mauser 4-groove pattern barrels, and assuming your groove diameter is pretty close to throat diameter--say, .311"-.312"--you would have land height of .0045" to .005". That would be very close to nominal dimensions in all respects, from my experience with Mauser-pattern barrel interiors--which isn't ultra-extensive, but I've slugged a bunch for self and others.

[bigwhack416remingtonmagnum]

9.3X62AL,.....as far as I follow you, yes those are the numbers I came up with. I measure everything 4 times. Did the best I could using my Micrometer and Calipers. It's all I have.

Regards Art.

[Dutchman]

Question (1) for the Swedish mauser:

I have some Gardner's cache bullets,...(Lee Cruise Missiles) I have sorted them into 4 weight groups: 176,177,178,180, that's what the box yielded. I slugged my barrel at the crown and yielded 255 /256 lands and 267 on groove dia. Now the throat as best as I can tell from the cast bullet I tapped down it reads, 267: Is that possible?

Since my barrel groove dia. is the same as the production bullets dia. from Gardner's I should be safe, ....right?

I wanted to shoot these at 25 and 50 yards only and wanted to keep the velocity in the 1200 to 1400 FPS range. I bought some IMR SR4759 and IMR 4227. Since I cannot fined a published start and Max load with these rifles in my reloading manuals: With these powders. I extrapolated this powder charge from looking at my Lyman 49th ed. manual. It list 16.5 grains for SR4759 and 17.5 for 4227 using a 150 grain bullet. I wanted to start safe and try 12gr. Please give me your thoughts on this starting load. My friend at the club said that if it bothered me that the powder was not being held at the back of the case to just take a single layer of appropriate sized toilet tissue and use it to hold the powder to the rear of the case.

I have some of the first batch of these that Gardner's did some 5-6+ years ago.

50 yds with a m/38 scoped. Load was 13.8 grs 2400. This is not a load that would make your wife flinch. Very pleasant and accurate. You'll have no problem with the cruise missile in your rifle. The only powders I've gotten excellent accuracy with are Unique, 2400 and 700X.

http://images41.fotki.com/v1580/photos/2/28344/157842/65x551701382400ab-vi.jpg

Lyman 266673 as-cast .266" 150 grs 13.8 grs 2400 @ 50 yds. 5 shots into 1/2". Pleasant load. If using Unique it would be 10.5 grs for a somewhat milder load.

http://images54.fotki.com/v202/photos/4/28344/8945429/020x-vi.jpg



Question (2) for the Swedish Mauser:

I also bought some #2 buckshot (.270 dia.) and I'm looking for a sizer to sewage them down to .267/.268 dia. to make small round ball loads with 8 grains of Unique. Please let me know if this is a bad Idea. The reason for this is my wife will not shoot 22lr rifles. In her words, " I wanna shoot the battle rifles" Well to get her there I thought it would be good to work up light loads, starting with the RB gallery loads and progress up the ladder so to speak till she's comfortable with the recoil of rifles and able to move on to the full power service loads. She wants to shoot with my Military BR group at the club. We have 7 other lady's that shoot it. She wants to join in.

Actually, I wouldn't waste my time with such a direction as you'll get better accuracy using cast bullets. The loads quoted above will not cause your wife any grief. In an 8 1/2 pound rifle there's barely any recoil.




Now for the 1891 7.65x53 Argentine Mauser.

(1) I have not slugged the bore yet, at the throat and muzzle. I will be getting some pure lead egg fishing weights and adjusting them to work for numbers on dimension. I want to try those Lapua (.314) 98gr. match pistol wad cutters in it for a nice little 25 yard round. Mostly just for fun. plus you get 500 to a box:mrgreen:. Is their anything that stands out to you guy's "Right off", that this is a dangerous idea? I also want to use 10 grains of Unique and Unique up to the right load:-D. Or is that to much ?

I shoot 314299 in my 1891 Argentine and the Lee 170 gr flat nose .314". This was fired using a long eye relief scope. After walking the bullets over to the 3 o'clock position there are 10 shots in the center. Mild load using 10.5 grs Swedish Gallery Powder which is equal to about the same using Unique. As with the Swede I wouldn't waste time using round balls as light loads as these cast loads are plenty pleasant enough for women and children. Even with the 200 grain 314299 and 13 grs Unqiue the recoil is minimal. Try it before you delve into this round ball gallery load idea.

http://images20.fotki.com/v527/photos/2/28344/1676633/008-vi.jpg

Dutch
http://dutchman.rebooty.com
Swedish Mausers & rolling blocks

[PAT303]

Bigwack,I shot a heap of 150grn boolits through my swede yesterday and mine will group in the 10 ring on a pistol target at 50mtrs without a gas check using 10grns of trailboss.It will do the same at 100mtrs with the same boolit and load but using a gas check on the boolit.My rifle also shoots very accurately with 18grns of 4227 or 16grns of 2400.The trailboss load has no recoil or muzzle blast. Pat

[missionary5155]

Good morning Bigwack
Lots of good info above..
A standard weight boolit around 190 grains and .314+ should get you going.
Lyman cast Books are full of infor for your appicatins. Most all those 100 year old cartriges had the same caricteristics.. long boolits chugging along below 2200 fps.

[Char-Gar]

The question of barrel life comes up from time to time here and other places. It is common thinking that lead alloy being softer than guilding metal will wear a bore less, resulting in longer barrel life. This is wrong. The enemy of barrel life is erosion caused by the expanding hot gases generated by the burning powder. That is the booger than does a barrel in. Friction between the barrel and the bullet is of very little consequence.

Barrels shot with cast bullets DO give longer barrel life, sometimes much, much longer, because they operate with much less pressure, hence much less gas erosion. Keep you cast bullet loads on the mild to mid-range side and you will be able to pass those rifles along to your heirs in good shape.

[felix]

Barrel replacement is about the cheapest thing when considering the payback in shooting pleasure when the barreled action is a proven accurate combination to begin with. It means the only replacement would be the throat area, and perhaps, at most, the last couple of inches at the muzzle. Usually, just a longer boolit will bring back satisfaction when the throat is burned out and a longer seating of the shorter boolit no longer works. In other words, don't ever worry about barrel wear unless that gun brings in competitive cash. In that situation, you can easily afford another. ... felix