308403

[Urny]

Leased an old Ideal 308403 mould from Onceabull and have gotten it to cast very nice boolits after considerable experimentation. If anyone has any information about this design, including but not limited to history, loads, uses, prefered lube application method, and best velocity range, I would appreciate anything our members can provide.

[Urny]

Somehow that got posted before I was ready for it. To continue. This mould prefers the alloy at about 700* F, and wants the dipper spout held against the sprue plate hole for three seconds or so. It releases the boolit without much persuasion if the sprue is allowed to reach what I call third stage grey, and then is touched to the wet towel. Any earlier use of the towel, and the boolit wants to stay in the mould. Finicky debil. Casting at higher temperatures quickly leads to heavy frosting of the base band, and poor fillout. Pouring without contact between spout and sprue plate results in a very high reject rate, maybe a third, do to very round bases. Using the full contact method results in essentially no rejects at all. Alloy is wheelweights and 4 oz of 95/5 tin/antimony in a full RCBS ladle only modified pot. I like it.

[Bent Ramrod]

Urny,

According to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook of 1958, Ideal 308403 (by then 311403) was designed by Harry Pope for maximum accuracy in the .30-06. They recommended it be shot as cast. It is a tapered design, so pan or tumble lubing is indicated. The Lyman book recommends seating the bullet with the fingers in the mouth of the case so the case mouth extends only halfway up the base band.

Ideal Handbook #34 (1947) pictures the bullet (which was 308403 then) and says the diameter of the first four bands from the point should be 0.301", the fifth band 0.303", the sixth 0.305" and the last one 0.315". The only powder charge recommended is 12-15 gr of Dupont #80, but you could probably start with 10 gr or so of 4759 and work upwards. Lyman claimed the bullet gave better accuracy up to 200 yards than any combination they knew of in the Springfield, "but, owing to the bullet being seated so lightly in the case, it is not suitable for handling except on the target range."

By Handbook #39, Lyman had gone to the format of listing cartridges with suggested bullets, rather than all bullets with suggested applications and loads, and, although 308403 is still listed, no more modern loadings were suggested.

[floodgate]

urny:

To add a few dates to Dave's note above, #308403 was introduced in the first "real" Lyman / Ideal Handbook No. 28 of 1927 (their No. 27 of 1926 - they bought the Ideal line, dormant since mid WW I, in late 1925 - was basically an edited reprint of the last Marlin No. 26 issue of 1915-16). It was dropped after a last listing in HB No. 39, May 1953 (but still shows in a 3-56 fold-out chart), and re-appears - re-designated as #311403 - in Handbook No. 41 of 1957 (and in the 1958 First Edition "Handbook of Cast Bullets), and then vanishes again; it is not seen in later Handbooks, nor in the Annual Product Catalogs from 1960 on. (The Ideal Handbooks were getting pretty spaced-out by then, and after No 41, do not show the full mould line, which was transferred to the annual catalog issues.) It does appear in the Second Edition (1973) "Cast Bullet Handbook", as weighing 167 grs. in No. 2 alloy, and taking the # 8 lube-sizer top punch and #8 310 tool bullet seating screw, but that is a nostalgia trip under the new owners, the "Leisure Products Group", with a summary of historical info, and the mould was available - if at all - only as a special-order item.

Well, you asked.....

floodgate

[Urny]

Thank you both, very much. My handbooks do not go back that far, and obviously there is a need for me to obtain more. I seem to remember reading an article about this boolit in an old Gun or Handloaders Digest, but have not managed to find that yet. I will try the pan lubing, 4759, and seating in fired, unsized cases. Not bothered much by the range loading and firing, as that was the origonal intent, in, of coarse, a Springfield. Thanks again, you have helped a lot.

[Bent Ramrod]

Glad to help, Urny. Please let us know how that Pope bullet shoots.

Floodgate--"The Leisure Group;" now, there's a name to conjure with. They did to Lyman what Diego de Landa did to the Mayan codices and Alaric the Goth did to Rome. Fifteen minutes before the beginning of the boom in interest in old guns, old calibers and old boolits, the Leisure Group bought out Lyman, junked every cherry that wasn't earning 20% a year, and waited for their by-the-book, bottom-line-oriented sound business decisions to earn them the inevitable fortune. I always figured the Leisure Group must have made their pile in Leisure Suits during the Disco Era and were looking for another culture to ruin.

It boggles the mind to think what a gold-plated, mink-lined catbird seat Lyman would be sitting in today if the Leisure Group had just let those old cherrys sit in the toolroom just a little bit longer...

[floodgate]

Dave:

Yeah, but by the same token, the Leisure Group DID do a full inventory of Ideal and Lyman cherries stashed in a dusty back room, cast samples from the moulds in a standard #2 alloy (or pure lead for the Minie' and Mickey balls), weighed them, matched them to the appropriate (more or less) seating screws and "G" lube-sizer top punches, and presented the whole slate in the Second Edition "Cast Bullet Handbook" of 1973 (as posted on CASTPICS). And LG's J. Mace Thompson was impressed enough with its potential to buy out the Group's interest in the line and take it private again as "Lyman Products for Shooters", and later move Lyman to the new facility in Middletown; if this had not happened, MY guess is that Lyman would have just withered away and died after the last of the Lyman family left the scene in the late '60's. There are certainly worse examples of corporate predation in recent
history.

Doug

[Bent Ramrod]

Floodgate,

I know the Lymans were anxious to unload the company, but still it is a shame. RCBS survived its acquisition by the Blount Corp in more or less its original shape. I guess each corporate raider plays by its own rules, and it is good that the Lyman company survived at all.

[Newtire]

Leased an old Ideal 308403 mould from Onceabull and have gotten it to cast very nice boolits after considerable experimentation. If anyone has any information about this design, including but not limited to history, loads, uses, prefered lube application method, and best velocity range, I would appreciate anything our members can provide.

Hi Urny,

Let us know if you get any better results than just a boolit that works ok with low pressure loads. I got great results as long as I didn't load it too hot. I think the pointy nose limits it's speed or at least makes it more prone to distortion. I would like to know how you did.

[Urny]

When I get a chance to do some shooting, a report will follow. Probably next weekend. Weight averages 167.7 grains, very uniform in the fifty weighed, and diameter, starting at the base .3147", .3049, .3024, .3015, .3009, .3009, .3007. This is slightly smaller than I had been led to believe, and if turns out to be too small, maybe some of the "modern" #2 alloy will be tried. I bought some of this 92-6-2 alloy, 100 pounds, from a custom caster in Quinter, KS some years ago and it just sits there, doing nothing. The boolit is mentioned in a Frank Marshall article in the new Fouling Shot.

[joeb33050]

The Pope 308403 has a tapered base band, smaller at the rear, larger at the front. This to make it a jam fit in the case neck, so no resizing is needed. This is the trick to this bullet. IS SHOULD NOT BE SIZED!!! For more info see the CBA site forum, go to "files" and look for the 308403 info.
joe b.

[Urny]

That is pretty much my plan, Joe. I went into the CBA files, and read what was there to be found. The project goes forward, but I was hoping our members had a little more experience with various loads for me to filch. No such luck.

[onceabull]

I'm thinking that this mould leasing bizness has bright prospects..I sit here and read while Urny asks all the right ?'s and does some load development .too..then collect in May and get right to shooting.!!!! Have to acknowledge some confusion re:Newtire's comment about " low pressure limits"and "Pointy nose",so confirmed my memory with a peek at Castpics, nose still looking flat to me ???? The low pressure thing I can see, as I suspect H.Pope was satisfied if the bullet didn't bounce off the target backer,at 2-3 Hundred Yds..I've acquired a couple of Saeco "Tapered style" moulds for 32/40 and 38/35..and am hoping those won't be range limited by low velocity..they do not appear to have the "reverse taper" base band as in the 308403 .though.but do have similar shapes up front..:roll: Onceabull

[9.3X62AL]

Oncebull--AKA "The Lead Boolit Landlord"--has a pretty cool gig here. I'll be running some of those 25 caliber Cramers out of the 250 Savage soon.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Urny, the latest "Fouling Shot" (received yesterday) has an article by Frank Marshall about loading for the .30/06, incuding the 311403. I can send you a copy if you are not a CBA member.

[Urny]

I am a member, Curmudgeon, and mentioned the article in Post #10. Been a member for quite some years now and the dues are some of the best money I spend. That slim little journal is the best shooting magazine out there. Thanks for the offer, though. I'll be coming your way the first week of October; herself has another back surgery scheduled at St. Mary's. We'll be there all week, so there should be some time for at least one get together.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Excellente! Bill

[Urny]

Alrighty, then, don't know if a shooting report goes here, or in the Military Rifle group, but since we have this thread, this will do. I loaded five each with 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 grains of SR4759 held against the Alcan LP primer by 1/6 sheet of toilet paper (white, two ply), the cases once fired and not resized. Lube was old Lee 50/50 pan applied. Alloy as stated previously. Groups shore don't look much like Curmudgeon or Buckshot deliver at NCBS in the springing of the year. Groups were 2 5/8", 1 11/16", 1 3/4", 2 3/16", and 1 3/4". Each one grain increase in powder required 8 clicks negative elevation change to keep the groups in the same place. I know this because it was shooting high, and with each group I applied 8 clicks down, and ended up with the shots going about the same heighth each time. The slide is moving a predictable amount with each series of clicks, so the sight isn't causing this. Ah, front sight is Lyman 17A with the narrow post insert, rear is Lyman 57somethingorother with target aperature. The target is NRA 50 ft small bore with a bit less than 1.5" black bull, shot at 50 yards. The rifle is my 1903A1 parts gun, about the way the army wanted it except for the sights. No sling, shot off the bench with my hand on the birdseed bag out front, rifle in the hand, no rear rest. No detectable wind, 50*F, 0730 start, target in full sun from about 4 o'clock, rifle and me in the shade of the covered firing line.

I'm thinking of starting at 15 grains next time and progressing to 19 grains, same powder, boolits and primers from same lots, same cases and shooting set up. This boolit may not hold up to that much pressure, but there are things I wish to know from my own testing and experience. There was almost no leading and what there was cleaned out with a couple of dry patches, so there may not be a problem there.

While there the newly acquired Argentine 1891 carbine with 1931 modification was tried with loads that work well in the other four '91's. Of 18 shots all but one went through the target in profile, at 25 yards. This is with 311041 sized .312 and lubed with Ms Moly spray, 20 1/2 grains of Turk Surplus (TS) powder. FLGC's will be tried next.

[dk17hmr]

I cast this bullet, I had the wrong idea when I started with it. I was sizing them to .309trying to push it hard and wasnt getting thing you could call a group. I asked about the bullet here and following ya'lls tips I was getting about 1.5" at 50 yards off sticks.

I use once fired brass in my 1903a1 primer popped out with my 45-70 die, I dont have an universal decapper. I left as cast tumbled lube and loaded with 10.0gr of Unique and a cotton filler to keep it in there. And finger pressure to seat the bullet. Its fun to piss around with on the back yard range.

[Urny]

DK, I'll be playing with this for a while, so your load of 10/Unique will get a try down the road. You're doing better than me.