Bullet Molds for 45/70, .444 & 45LC H&R Rilfes?

[Wilson]

I would like to start casting and loading for two BC 45/70 rifles, two .444 Marlin handi rifles and one .45LC BC. We will be using these guns in the Louisiana primitive weapons season for 130 pound deer.

I have spent several hours searching this forum and am looking at these molds for the 45/70 Lyman 457122, RCBS 457-325 FP, LEE 457-340 F. I have IMR 3031 on hand, so I'd like to use that powder.

Would any of the above work well with the H&R CR-45LC carbine? Any powder suggestions? I have Blue Dot, 2400, and Unique.

So far I have not found a mold for the .444 Marlin Handi. I do have a 240 grain Keith style bullet for a .44 mag. Would this work well? I hope to use the same IMR 3031 powder.

[Bob Krack]

So far I have not found a mold for the .444 Marlin Handi. I do have a 240 grain Keith style bullet for a .44 mag. Would this work well? I hope to use the same IMR 3031 powder.
The .444 Marlin is designed to shoot a .429 projectile.

If possible, slug your barrel and size to a couple of thousandths larger than the groove diameter.

Bob

[44man]

I have a mold for the 500 gr Gov't boolit from Rapine. You can get it in different sizes to fit guns better. I loaded for a friend with 3031 and a soft 20 to 1 boolit ( I don't remember how much because he moved away.)
It was pleasant shooting and he took a bunch of deer with it. It was very accurate too.
Slug your gun, I used a .460" in the gun he had. I can't even remember it, original trapdoor or rolling block----old age set in ya know! :killingpc Thing was amazing, I shot a one hole group with my lighter revolver boolit at 50 yards but it hit too low for the sights. The 500 gr hit center.

[harvester]

I have used the lee .457 340gr bullet sized to .452 in the CR-45LC carbine and it shoots very well. It is a bullet intended for the 45-70 but easily can be sized down to fit 45LC.

[Wilson]

Thanks Bob for the .429 dimension for the .444 Marlin. If I size my Keith style bullet correctly would it be a suitable bullet for the .444? What do you think would be the maximum speed for such a bullet cast from WW?

Thanks Harvester for the .452 dimension for the CR-.45LC. It seems that the LEE .457 340 would be a good starting place to get a bullet for both the 45/70 and the .45LC.

[Wilson]

I was Googling "bullet mold for .444 Marlin and came up with this one, Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold C430-310-RF. There are several good reviews on Midway USA. Has anyone used this one?

[Wilson]

How about this one for the CR-45LC?
Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold C452-300-RF 45 Colt (Long Colt), 454 Casull (452 Diameter) 300 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check

[harvester]

I also have the Lee 300 grain for 45LC and it is a fine bullet with a huge meplat. It is a gas check design and shoots fine in the CR-45LC rifle.

[Bob Krack]

Thanks Bob for the .429 dimension for the .444 Marlin. If I size my Keith style bullet correctly would it be a suitable bullet for the .444? What do you think would be the maximum speed for such a bullet cast from WW?


If'n it were me, I would try shooting "as cast" with a somewhat reduced load to see what the fit "feels" like. Of course, slugging the barrel would much more productive but oversize (within reason of course) will not hurt anything except maybe accuracy.

If my mould threw a .432 for example, I would shoot it as is (again, reduced load to verify safety). If there is any way to recover the shot projectile like as in after shooting it through a half dozen or more water filled milk or juice jugs you will see the engraving. Make certain there is marking all around the projectile, bore and grooves.

In my opinion - even though I have no personal experience with the .444 - I expect air cooled wheelweight alloy (or equivalent alloy) 1500 FPS could be expected and water quenched or oven heat treated and quenched MIGHT get you up to near 2000 FPS.

I am basing this statement from experience casting and loading for a Ruger ranch? rifle semi-automatic in .44 using a Lee 240 SWC gas checked mould that cast at about 260 grains. I had the mould shortened - courtesy of a member here and ended up with a 238 grain plain base boolit. As cast it dropped at .432 and we got terrific accuracy and performance in my opinion (two old farts having fun shooting).

We sized to .431 and got a little leading which got worse and worse after several shots.

The powder was 2400 and I hesitate to mention the load amount, but it was very much in accord with Elmer Keith's original loads.

Back to page one.... If you can NOT slug the bore, start with the unsized boolit, air cooled, reduced load and increase the load until pressure signs or leading occur. Lee Liquid Alox or other semi solid lubricant followed with a "pan lube" of some wax or grease type of lubricant. Beeswax/Alox AKA NRA lube is my choice, although I have had terrific results with a combination of Beeswax, paraffin, and Canola mixture that solidifies in the shade but melts in the direct sunlight. Same lube if ya go onto water quenched boolits.


You WILL find that a boolit too small for the barrel WILL lead in spite of anything you do to try to prevent that occurrence!


I was Googling "bullet mold for .444 Marlin and came up with this one, Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold C430-310-RF. There are several good reviews on Midway USA. Has anyone used this one?

Second part of your question.... In MY opinion, shooting a heavier boolit at a lower speed will return much better results than a lighter boolit at higher speeds (especially for hunting or defense). 300 or more grains at max loads will be traveling at lower speeds (at max load) than the 240.

Several users here are using 360? grain or heavier boolits in their .44s. (I traded a C430-310-RF to Tom W. I think, cause my old fart shooting partner had more than enough boolits to last him the rest of his life.) Was a fantastic slug, but gas checked.

Hope this helps and I truly expect that several others will add to or correct my message.

Bob

[Wilson]

Thanks again for the responses. Bob, I can sure try and slug the barrels, but I'm thinking I need a bullet to do the slugging, after that I should be able to size them accordingly as needed. I like your idea of shooting a low velocity round into a series of water filled jugs as opposed to pounding a bullet through.

I have the following moulds in my Midway Cart just waiting for me to purchase:
Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 457-405-F 45-70
Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold C430-310-RF 44
Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold C452-300-RF 45
Lyman 1-Cavity Bullet Mold #457122 45 (Gould Express bullet HP) I like the story behind this one. I'll probably move it to the "wish list" for now though.

[Wilson]

I did a search for "Gould" and came up with a great post by rob45 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73685
I'm going to order that Lyman HP Mold #457122 45 (Gould Express bullet HP).
My question is, will this bullet work in both the 45Long Colt and the 45/70? Also, I've ordered the .452 Lyman die for the 45 LC, what die should I get for the 45/70 BC? I know I should slug the barrel, but I'd like to order the most likely die or (dies) along with the mold so I don't have to wait. Many thanks to you all.

[Bob Krack]

I did a search for "Gould" and came up with a great post by rob45 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73685
I'm going to order that Lyman HP Mold #457122 45 (Gould Express bullet HP).
My question is, will this bullet work in both the 45Long Colt and the 45/70? Also, I've ordered the .452 Lyman die for the 45 LC, what die should I get for the 45/70 BC? I know I should slug the barrel, but I'd like to order the most likely die or (dies) along with the mold so I don't have to wait. Many thanks to you all.
Wilson,

I suppose the .452 is good for the LC (if your investigations say yes then it should be). If ya find ya need a larger boolit, you can expand the sizer some with wet and dry sandpaper or send it out to have it opened up.

I think the 457122 at 290 grains is a little on the heavy side for the .45 LC based mostly on case capacity compared to overall cartridge length constraints but it might just work out for you.

I repeat myself, I would try the boolit unsized for the .45-70.
EDIT: most .45-70s seem to like .461 to .464 boolits.

The best method I have found to slug the bore is with an egg sinker - the football shaped sinker with the hole through the center..... if ya can find one the appropriate diameter.

Bob

[aaalaska]

I have used the Lee 310 gr thru both my Redhawk 44 and the Encore 444 Both group well with the few loads I've tried. seems to be a bullet I will use when my supply of 300 gr Hard cast runs out. I purchased a large no. of 300 gr about 10 years ago and will use them before any serious work with the lee's. When I opened the last box of the 300's I ordered the Lee mold,last year and cast about 200 one afternoon, after sizing to.429 I loaded a few different loads for both the 44 and the 444 .the 44 makes a consistent clover leaf at 40 yrds , the 444 shot 1 1/2 to 2 in groups @ 100 yrds. So I plan on using this one in the future , just not a real need for it right now.
Alex

[dualsport]

The Lee 310 shoots great as cast in my H&R .444. It was designed by a member here, Dale 53, for heavy .44 mag. loads but shoots well in a .444 too. I use ww, LLA, gc by hand. Load 'em as cast, .432, no problems. Just make sure they chamber without too much resistance, could raise pressure. Those are all heavy hitters for small deer, maybe next year try a 38-55 or 30-30 if you want some variety.

[44man]

I have detailed my deer hunting experiences using a boolit that is too hard from my 45-70 revolver. WLN or WFN. I am even worried about the Marlin .44 because it is faster then a revolver so I am leaning towards a two part boolit.
The rifles are a lot worse so I would sure be looking for some expansion. I am not yet sure even air cooled WW's would work and prevent pencil holes through deer.
The whole trouble is that hard shoots better but kills worse if too fast, so I will try a pure nose this season.

[pls1911]

Bullet choice depends on use...feral cats, armalillos, coons possums, skunks, and yes , coyotes at close range as well as other targets of opportnity fall easily to any standard bullet you'd use in a 45LC pistol or a .45 ACP.
A 200 gr SWC annihilates Armadillos
A 230 RN constipates coons and conks coyotes.
and of course the standard .45 bullets 250-sh frn and 300gr FN gas check of choice crushes deer with shoulder shots.
All the above if at ranges from 4 feet to 40 yards, easy shots.
I load 'em all with 9 grains of unique, and go pull the trigger.

[Wilson]

dualsport,
You're right about them all being heavy hitters for small deer. We have six hunters in my family and I'm the guy doing the outfitting. The main reason I got into the handi rifles was the lower cost. All my hunting is multiplied by a factor of six. Louisiana law says " Single shot, breech loading rifles, .38 caliber or larger of a kind or type manufactured prior to 1900 and replicas, reproductions or reintroductions of that type rifle having an exposed hammer that use metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder." The 38-55 in the H&R doesn't seem to be available anymore. Last year we followed a friend's advice and bought Hornady LeverEvolution in 45/70 and .444. Now imagine three skinny 100# kids firing that 7# handi-rifle. One shot was all they could stand. I sighted them all in. Talk about a pain!:veryconfu After sight in, I installed a mercury recoil reducer in them and we collected three deer. The mercury helped a bit. This year we've decided to down load from the Lever Evolution for the kid's sake and mine too!;) That's why I started this thread. Thanks again for your valuable in put.

[Gohon]

I have used the lee .457 340gr bullet sized to .452 in the CR-45LC carbine and it shoots very well. It is a bullet intended for the 45-70 but easily can be sized down to fit 45LC

This sounds interesting as I have two 45LC rifles, a Marlin lever and a H&R BC. Question....when you sized down to .452, was it a smooth operation or did lead flow into the lube grooves as some will do?

[Wilson]

OK. Midway shipped my order today. Thanks to your suggestions and input I ended up getting the following along with the Lyman 450 dies to size and lubricate them.
Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 457-405-F 45-70
Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold C430-310-RF 44
Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold C452-300-RF 45
I'll let you know how we fair this fall.
Best regards and good hunting and shooting!

[harvester]

This sounds interesting as I have two 45LC rifles, a Marlin lever and a H&R BC. Question....when you sized down to .452, was it a smooth operation or did lead flow into the lube grooves as some will do?

I used a Lee sizer with a little case lube on bullet to size, then back through the sizer to lube it. Since I only do 50 or so at a time it is not too labor intensive and does give you a good bullet. I did not notice loss of too much of the lube groove as it would only be .0025 per side anyway and this bullet has several lube grooves. My CR-45LC really likes this bullet. I like using it this way because my 45-70 does not really like this bullet although it does shoot it good enough for hunting close range.

[cajun shooter]

The Lyman 454190 is the original bullet for the 45 COLT (IT IS NOT LONG COLT) I have fired many down range in SASS. You might find that you will have to go to the 454 bullet to obtain the best accuracy.

[Gohon]

Paco would disagree with you....... :arrow: "Those that voraciously disagree with the word ‘LONG’ in the phrase 45 Long Colt............don’t e-mail me.....my spiritual brother (for almost a lifetime), and dear friend, John Taffin, has been trying to change my position for decades....and John may be correct, as all of you may. But in this, I am unrepentant...why? Because among other reasons, I have a full box of 45 Short Colt ammo produced in 1883 and that got me to really investigate! Not Schofield...but “45 Short Colt” Ammunition.....(230 grain bullet/hollow base/28 grains B.P.) People back then called them LONG or SHORT Colts when making purchases......so do I today."

Harvester, thanks for the info. I think I'll be ordering one soon.

[dualsport]

The .40 plus calibers are great for deer. You can't go wrong with any of those calibers you got. Good luck on your hunt, maybe get a kid to show you how to post pictures of the harvest.

[harvester]

Paco would disagree with you....... :arrow: "Those that voraciously disagree with the word ‘LONG’ in the phrase 45 Long Colt............don’t e-mail me.....my spiritual brother (for almost a lifetime), and dear friend, John Taffin, has been trying to change my position for decades....and John may be correct, as all of you may. But in this, I am unrepentant...why? Because among other reasons, I have a full box of 45 Short Colt ammo produced in 1883 and that got me to really investigate! Not Schofield...but “45 Short Colt” Ammunition.....(230 grain bullet/hollow base/28 grains B.P.) People back then called them LONG or SHORT Colts when making purchases......so do I today."

Harvester, thanks for the info. I think I'll be ordering one soon.

FYI- I forgot to mention that 340 grain Lee 457 bullet when sized to .452 makes a really nice paper patched 45-70 bullet..