45/70 questions smokless

[8185854610]

I have read that you need to eliminate the gap between the powder and the bullet in light loads. I am loading 300 grain cast lead flat tips over 31 grains of imr 4198. This is trap door load and I am going to be using it in an 1881 Marlin. I checked the cartridge case and the gap between the base of the bullet and the powder is 3/8 to 1/2 inch. I really dont want to use fillers. Does this represent a problem. I am also going to load a 385 or 405 cast lead in future loads. Thanks Captain Lewis

[btroj]

You may thinking of black. Black powder does not want a gap between powder and the base of the bullet.
Smokeless cow.d care less about a gap. Many of us here use reduced loads of smokeless in this cartridge with a big gap between bullet and powder. Just shot 350 gr bullets today with 24 gr of 2400. Lots of airspace, no problems.
You might want to back and recheck what you read.
Brad

[Larry Gibson]

You will get better and more consitent ignition (translates into accuracy) if you use a 3/4 - 1 gr dacron filler with that light bullet using that light of a 4198 load. If you want to not use a filler with the 300 gr bullet then you might look at a faster burning powder like Unique. Using 4149 with 400+ gr bullets with the upper end trapdoor loads general does not require the filler. Depends on the fit of the bullet and a couple other things.

Larry Gibson

[8185854610]

If I switch to a 385 grain or 405 grain bullet would you recommend a filler, and would this be a more accurate load than the 300 grain bullet, thanks for the help, JL

[jh45gun]

I agree 24 grains of 2400 is a good load whether is is a 300 grain or 405 grain bullet in a Marlin Lever gun.

[45r]

5744 works very well for me and doesn't need a dacron tuft.I use 28.5 grains 5744 with a 405 grain boolit and recoil is easy to handle.

[8185854610]

Thanks guys got the powder side down, from your suggestions. For target shooting 100 to 400 yards what is your bullet weight recommendations for cast bullets. Thank you

[Larry Gibson]

Captain Lewis

Using a heavier bullet with a given powder charge will increase the time/pressure curve and this case will give better ignition. This applies to 4198 as you mentioned. The 24 gr load of 2400 suggested is a good load for either as that powder is slightly faster than 4198 and ignites and burns more uniformly at the lower pressure.

For target shooting the bullet selection would be dependent on the type of rifle. A tube fed Marlins bullet requirements are different than single shot rilfes. If you are single feeding them in the Marlin then a good 400 gr RN like the Lyman 457124 is a good one. If you want to feed them from the magazine then Lee's 457-405-F and Lyman's 457193 are good choices. Some like to use the Lee 459-405-HB and it also can work well but a true FB bullet is easier to cast and most often gives better accuracy. If you want to push the bullets over 1600 fps then I suggest the RCBS 45 -405-FN which is a GC bullet for best accuracy at the higher velocity. All will give excellent accuracy to 400+ yards with target loads.

One caveat; if the groove depth on the Marlin M1881 is larger than .458 you may want to look at a Rapine 460400 gr or their similar FN mould so it fits the bore of your rifle.

Larry Gibson

[jh45gun]

I shoot a 405 grain Lee HB .459 bullet with 24 grains of 2400 and I have no accuracy issues it shoots great and I never use fillers on any of my cast loads with 2400 whether it be for the 30/30 or 30/06 or my K31 7.5x55. All shoot cast great with 2400 and no fillers.

[bubba.50]

lee 340s and about 25 to 28grs either 4759 or 5744 shoots into about an inch or a bit more @75yds in my buffalo classic. air space is no problem for me. also use approximately the same load in my 50-70 rolling block(bullet weight & charge) and it was made in 1872. for what it's worth, bubba.

[KirkD]

I've used toilet paper filler in my 45-70 with 5744 and with IMR 4198 and it always tightens groups and reduces E.S. I've not tried toilet paper filler with 2400 in my 45-70, but I have used toilet paper with 2400 in other cartridges, and I've not found it helpful. It seems to me that toilet paper filler used with 2400 actually increases E.S.. My experience with TP and 2400, however, is not extensive. At the moment, I'm working on developing a smokeless load for my 45-70. I've tried IMR 3031 with cream of wheat filler (which I do not recommend, as it requires too much COW and the COW gets hard like cement, having pulled a couple bullets and checked), IMR 4198 with TP, 5744, SR4759 and 2400. I'm aiming for a traditional ballistic of right around 1,300 fps with a 405 grain PB bullet. Thus far, 2400 and SR 4759 are giving me the best accuracy, but I'm still experimenting. I've had quite a few 45-70's, some over 100 years old and some modern. I find that a good load in one isn't necessarily a good load in another. Variables seem to be bullet diameter vs. groove diameter and throat diameter, alloy hardness, and condition of bore. With each one, I have to experiment if I'm using PB cast bullets (which is what I use). Load development with jacketed bullets is usually a no-brainer requiring very little experimentation. I shoot only cast bullets, however, as they are a huge amount cheaper.

[Char-Gar]

The 45-70 round has been around for 137 years and there are no mysteries about loading it. I started loading for it at age 16 in 1958. I had a $20.00 trap door and an old Lyman combination mold and loading tool.

YOu don't need filler with 2400, 4759 and the like. Don't spend any time freting about the air space. You freting energy would be better spent on the state of our goverment.

Trapdoors tend to string their shots on the verticle and not much you can do about it. The Army broke the code and just went to an oval target for the rifle and round. If you can't lick em, join em!

[Win86]

Question: Is the 1881 Marlin at 1500-1600fps strong enough? seems scary to me.


I'll second what KirkD said about using TP fillers as the process has workd for me over 30 years of shooting old and new guns in many older case designs including the 45-70 and many thousands of rounds too. Other fillers were either a pain to use or just not as accurate. I don't use a filler with powders that fill the case close to, but NOT touching the bullet, just TP with 5744 as that powder is so forgiving and accurate as well. Pressures with this powder are kept close to Black in the older antiques allowing us to shoot them without worry of over-pressure, just so loads are kept within Accurate Arms specs for both bullet type and weight. Accurate A. says 5744 is not position sensitive but ALL my guns print slightly tighter groups with TP plus better ES most all the time. Have loads using 300 to 500 grain trapdoor bullet, all soft boolits, all with 5744 and TP and used by several friends taking everything from Deer, elk, and several buffalo so they have proved themselves both in the field and on paper. Heavy boolits at close too BP velocities and reasonable distances, 100 yards or less. Last Jan, a friend used my 350 -GC bullet and 27.5 grains to shoot his 900 lb. Buff, head shot @ 75 yds dropped the hairy bugger without a step and with his antique 86 short rifle. IMO the soft bullet used was too soft perhaps as he picked the bullet from the brain cavity and weight retention was not what I'd have prerferred but still did the job and the brain matter was soup. This same bullet on his 80yd shot spike elk went through 100% on lung shot leaving huge hole going out, no bullet was recovered. 300 grain bullets and 27 grains go through deer like they aren't there, even at 100 yds. Big hole out too, lots of blood and maybe they go 20yds before falling dead.

IMO- the powders generally used in the 45-70 are not near as important as the bullet quality and hardness if using Lead Boolits as most powders, if held within proper pressure limits work fine in streight wall cases. As for jacketed, when the Browning 1886 first came out, I loaded mine with 300 grain jacketed and 52 grains of Reloaded 7, now that's a load, very accurate too! - to much recoil at this stage but ahhh what menories!

Have found the less TP I use the better, just enough to hold powder from laying along the 45-70 case, 1/4 piece of 2-ply is what I use now and have for many years. Do not wad into a tight ball, just squish it together enough to enter the mouth and push lighty against the powder with a 223 case but anything that just fits the case works just so its not too narrow; you want to TP too spread out more than up and not compressed to tight, moderate to snug fit is all. Yes there will be an air space between the TP and bullet however both I and many others around our Range who use this method have never had an issue from doing so. Using TP does raise pressures but no MAX loads go through my rifles with any powder and, I chrono everything; example: using the 300 grain lead boolit and 27 grains the difference over the chrono is about 60-fps increase compared to no TP filler. With the 405 bullet and 26 grains about 50 fps increase.

Win86

[rintinglen]

I shot a Marlin CB in Lever Action Silhouette competition and was lucky enough to find a 457-192 4-cavity mould, a 345 or so grain boolit I have shot many, many pounds of these over 22 grains of 2400 with polyester fiber filler. I heartily recommend the use of a filler on light loads like this. I also heartily recommend the RCBS 45-325U. It casts well, is a 2 holer and is very accurate--however, if your bore is on the large side, you might have issues.
In general, I have not had much luck with any of the lighter bullets. RCBS makes a 45-300 GC that didn't ever work out for me. Lymans 457-191 was only a smidge better. I tried to find a 457-196, but them's as has 'em don't sell 'em and even if they do there is always some ne'er do well who thinks they are worth more for his collection than I do for working mold that might not work out. Most of my shooting has been with similar mid weight mold.s
That said, I have also fired a fair fewhundred rounds of relatively stout 3031 loads using a 457-406 gas check that were very accurate--but a little too manly for me. I had one go off before I had it good and snug and ended up with 3 stitches in the web of my hand twixt my thumb and index finger where the lyman sight base got me.

[WHITETAIL]

Lewis, a late but harty welcome to this forum!:veryconfu
I had the same question when I started shooting the 45-70.
I'ed played around with both filler and no filler.
My results were no real dif. between them.
My load in the CowBoy is 37.5 gr. of IMR 4198
a CCI Mag primer and a RCBS 405 gr. Gc.
At 100 yards the boolits touch each other.:cbpour:

[KirkD]

I should add with regard to toilet paper filler that if one is using a gas check boolit, then the function of TP is primarily to give more consistent burning (i.e., to reduce the extreme spread as measured by your chronograph). I don't use any TP filler if I am using a gas check, which for me, is my 45-60 and my 30-30. So, for those using GC boolits, TP filler will be little or no advantage in tightening groups. All the rest of my boolits for my various calibers are plain base cast bullets. It is here that TP not only gives a lower E.S., but also a tighter group.

I don't, however, use TP filler with medium speed powders like 2400 and 4759. I begin with IMR 4227 and 5744 and slower powders, such as IMR 4198 and IMR 3031. I have found IMR 4227 to be very position-sensitive for cartridges where it fills only half or less of the case. In those circumstances, I use a different powder or else TP filler. For the 45-90 cartridge, I found the extreme spread to be over 400 fps using IMR 3031. TP filler reduced this to less than 50 fps. This is probably because there was so much empty space in the case if I used IMR 3031 under a 300 grain bullet to give traditional BP velocities. In general, to achieve traditional BP velocities with the traditional bullet and weight for that caliber, my preference is 2400, 5744 and SR4759, with 2400 leading the way even for the 45-70. Even though 2400 leaves a lot of empty space, it seems to burn well or better with no TP filler, at least in my experience. On the other hand, 2400 does not seem to burn well in near capacity loads .... it seems to need space, although that may be a function of the type of primers I have used.