30-30 Ackley Improved Loads

[Ranch Dog]

Would somebody be willing to post loads from Ackley's manuals for the 30-30AI? I'm primarily interested in loads using Hodgdon powders. Information for the 170-grain bullet would be appreciated.

[9.3X62AL]

The only data shown for the 30-30 Ackley Improved in Ackley's Handbook #1 goes up to 150 grain bullets. There is no data listed for the caliber in Handbook #2 that I can find.

As an extrapolation guideline--Ackley gives 35.0 grains of "3031" as the load for the 30-30 WCF using 150 grain bullets, yielding 2450 FPS. Current IMR data gives 35.5 grains of IMR 3031 as its top-end load for the 150 grainer, yielding 2370 FPS.

Ackley data shown in Handbook #1 for the 30-30 A/I and 150 grainers (pp. 412) shows 36.0 grains of "3031" giving 2535 FPS, top loading of 38.0 grains yielding 2700 FPS. Also note that the IMR data shows their 35.5 grain dosage to be "compressed".

I've done absolutely zero work with the A/I cartridges. I was very intrigued with the 25-35 A/I at one time, since it runs neck-and-neck with the 257 Roberts velocity-wise.......but didn't go there.

A couple guys from the department I worked at were Ackley enthusiasts, and discussions I had with them concerning their rifles (both 30-06's) was that velocity improvements were on the order of 5% over maxed/reloaded 30-06 velocities, so about 12% over factory ballistics. Accuracy was largely unchanged, but case life with top-end loads was GREATLY improved over their rifles' former situation with reloads running near top-end (180's at 2750-2800 FPS). They reported 12-14 firings with loads using Nosler Partition 180's at 2900-2925 FPS.

Their load workup involved start loads at their rifle's former maximums with the old chamber, slowly working up to about 5% over that former max.

Maybe someone here has actual hands-on time with the 30-30 A/I.

[felix]

No hands on with the 30-30 AI, but with other, smaller cases, smaller bores. A general rule is to ASSUME the powder speed picks up a notch on the powder scale with the much sharper shoulder. The longer the case is, the less effect of this speed up will be. So, say in the 30-30 length/capacity, the powder will speed up by TWO thru ONE full grains of 4198 thru 4895 in speed. That will include the Hodgdon powders H332 thru H335/BLC2. Probably won't notice much difference with H380/H414. ... felix

[Ranch Dog]

Thanks fellows... going to be working with my Lee TLC311-165-RF.

[Topper]

Micheal,
My best cast load so far with the 30-30AI from a 14" Contender is the following:
Cast Lee 150gr FPGC IMR 3031 **32gr best Accuracy** Ogive 2.467 100yd 1" group.
34gr of IMR 3031 provided 2131fps @12ft from muzzle average.
I picked up some Reloader 7, will test it whenever I can find time.

[johniv]

Sir, have worked some withthe 30AI but only with J bullets. I was using Akleys loads (working up to them) but am planning to try cast soon. Rifle is 94 Win. and when I do anything worth passing on I will do so.
John

[scrapcan]

There are loads in the follwoing book for the 30-30AI. Sam built a custom rifle and there is a couple chapters about the rifle and loads in this book. I think there is both cast and jacketed data. You can buy it or you could get an interlibrary loan. Our county libraries here have a few copies, here is the info.


Item Information Catalog Record
683.422 FAD
Winchester's 30-30, Model 94 : the rifle America loves
Fadala, Sam, 1939-

Publishing info: Stackpole Books, c1986. ; 223 p. : ISBN: 0811719057
Copy info: 4 items available at Laramie Co. Library - Cheyenne, Hot Springs Co. Library, Natrona Co. Public Library, and Park Co. Library.
4 items total in all locations.

Holdings


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Laramie Co. Library - Cheyenne Material Location
683.422 FAD Book Nonfiction

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hot Springs Co. Library Material Location
683.422 FADALA Book Nonfiction

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natrona Co. Public Library Material Location
683.422 FADALA Book Nonfiction

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Park Co. Library Material Location
683.422 F120W Book Nonfiction

[Ranch Dog]

Thanks guys! Keep me posted on your work and I will do the same. I will go by the library in town and see if they have or can get the book for me.

I plan on using Hodgdon powders but real interested in some WC846 that I have. I ran my rifle and bullet through my Load From A Disk software (new version 5.0.1. is out) and an image of the output page is included below. Hodgdon's data says 36.0-grains of BL-C(2) will give 2227 FPS and 34.7K CUPs in the 30-30 Win. With this as a known, I might work up to that 37.5-grain load in the tables.

[Newtire]

Hi Ranch Dog,
This is what I had from Ackley info. I believe that the 3031 powder he used was different and also that those loads he listed were pretty hot. I will throw in some loads I have tried in my.30-30 Ackley and have gotten great results with below the Ackley info.


Bullet (grs.) Powder / (grs.) MV ME Source
100 SP RL-7 / 36.0 2750 1680 Ackley
110 HP RL-7 / 35.0 2610 1660 Ackley
130 SP W748 / 36.0 2385 1645 Ackley
150 SP RL-7 / 30.0 2270 1720 Ackley
150 SP IMR3031 / 37.0 2617 2280 Ackley
170 SP IMR3031 / 35.0 2310 2020 Ackley


And now...some I have loaded with good success.

175 gr. 311407 & 311041 boolits.
35.5 gr. AA2520
or
35.5 gr. IMR 4064

These both shot into 1" @ 50yds. out of a Win. 94 AE.

I am interested in any testing you do on this caliber.

Another load I tested & that shot well was 32gr. IMR 3031 & a Lee 190 gr from an old mold I bought years ago.

[Ranch Dog]

Thanks for the updates!

[Marlin Junky]

How does the 30-30AI work with heavy boolits? RCBS 30-180FN would extend well past the shoulder junction.

MJ

[Newtire]

How does the 30-30AI work with heavy boolits? RCBS 30-180FN would extend well past the shoulder junction.

MJ
Hi MJ,
The 311407 group buy boolit, the 311041 & the old Lee 190 gr. FP all intruded down into the powder space with the 30-30 Ackley and that was a concern of mine as I hadn't had to do that with the regular 30-30. They still shot great.

Furthermore another boolit & caliber that I just recently did some work with didn't seem to mind being put into the powder space was a 311467 in a .30-06. That thing gave some fine groups.

I always steered clear of doing that but now having fired many many rounds like that in the 30-30 Ackley and recently with the311467 in '06, I am starting to side with those here who say it doesn't hurt to do this.

I thought that the base would be upset and cause some kind of problems with getting out of the case upon initial firing or some such thing. I really would be cautious about making sure the gas checks are all squeezed on tightly so recoil don't knock one off while it's waiting it's turn in line in the magazine. anyhow, just to say, I tried the deep seating & it didn't affect accuracy any as far as i can tell from shooting these bullets in other guns & not having the boolits into the powder space like this. I'm sure others might have thoughts or real experiences.

[felix]

Once the boolit starts to move, the pressure wave tends to follow the center of the boolit, keeping it straight. The idea is to have the boolit base well into the neck as the pressure rises enough to make that base obturate. This idea implies slower powders should improve accuracy when the boolit is seated below the neck junction. ... felix

[Newtire]

Once the boolit starts to move, the pressure wave tends to follow the center of the boolit, keeping it straight. The idea is to have the boolit base well into the neck as the pressure rises enough to make that base obturate. This idea implies slower powders should improve accuracy when the boolit is seated below the neck junction. ... felix

Hi Felix,
I was using 4064, 2520, 4895 & 3031 with those heavier boolits. The plinkers were short enough that they didn't have the intrusion problem and 9.0 Unique with a 150 gr. Lee or Saeco in the Ackley Improved .30-30 turned out to be real deadly on paper.

Now we just need for our good buddy Ranch Dog to do a few pressure tests. From what I understand, the "normal" pressure signs aren't there with the Ackley because of the way that it grips the chamber walls.

[Marlin Junky]

I'd probably be using H380/AA2700 through Ramshot Hunter in the 30-30AI with RCBS 30-180FN and heavier if I were to rechamber one of my 336's but how much powder space would one actually gain when using the longer bullets? What about lube contamination on hot days and would the sharp shoulder tend to distort if one needed to use an M-die?

It would probably be better to graduate from the 30-30 to the 30-40 in order to burn more powder behind 200+ grain boolits.

How well does the .307 in a 336 handle long boolits?

MJ

[Newtire]

I'd probably be using H380/AA2700 through Ramshot Hunter in the 30-30AI with RCBS 30-180FN and heavier if I were to rechamber one of my 336's but how much powder space would one actually gain when using the longer bullets? What about lube contamination on hot days and would the sharp shoulder tend to distort if one needed to use an M-die?

It would probably be better to graduate from the 30-30 to the 30-40 in order to burn more powder behind 200+ grain boolits.

How well does the .307 in a 336 handle long boolits?

MJ
Hey MJ,
I would bet that the 30-40 would be a great one. I keep getting tempted but have spent way too much over my intended shooting budget (whatever a "shooting budget" is huh!).

I haven't had troubles much with bending the shoulder but did have one or two do that on seating a .311 boolit. The shoulder/neck is real thin. I have been fireforming from some DWM 30-30 new brass I picked up at our local mom & pop store without one fireform failure. I used a bunch of Winchester once fired & fireformed them with 8 gr. Unique and the Lee Soupcan. Most of them made it. I also used some PMC, Federal, & Remington with pretty good luck. I tried fireforming with H-4227 @ 16 gr. with a 311407 & most of these burned thru the neck using the same Win cases that fireformed with the Unique load. Also fireformed with full power charges of 2520 & that worked but that's an expensive way to go. I get about 5-6 gr. more 4064, 2520 or 4895 into a caseful than with the regular 30-30. I would be over max in regular 30-30 with most before the case got full of these medium-medium slow powders I am using.

I really wound up with this rifle because it was for sale for $350 complete with RCBS dies, a fresh reblue (or else had been meticulously cared for) a set of rings, and 150 or so fireformed cases. It is a 94 AE before the days of pushbutton safeties and the wood is real nice. A real nice gun. I do like the way it shoots.

[william iorg]

RD,
Good graph. I have been graphing loads for years on graph paper, then on various spreadsheets until I got a copy of Greg Mushials RCBS Load.
While I have shot some cast bullets and paper patch bullets in the .30-30AI I think of it as a jacketed bullet cartridge due to the short neck.
While looking at your graph I dont have any exact comparisons of your ball powder loads. 39.0 grains of BLc2 and the 170 grain Speer gave me 2339 fps in the Winchester M-94AE. Your chart roughly estimates 45,000 CUP so that explains why we were able to load right on up using BLC2 and Winchester 748 when we were looking at our margin of safety. 39.0 grains is a very full case acording to my notes. The 39.0 grain load was below our stop point using our rather primitive pressure guessing methods.
You do not list a 38.0 grain load but we got 2281 fps in the Marlin 336 with the Speer bullet. Your chart estimating about 42,000 CUP falls pretty much in line with our thinking. Pressure ring measurements (which have no correlation to pressure) on previously fireformed and full length sized brass were .42175" and we stop at .422".
It is sure a lot of fun to attempt to predict what is going to happen and then go out and see the actual result.