Greenhill Formula - 358009 & 1-16" Twist

[insanelupus]

One of the things I enjoy about handloading and casting is the chase in finding the right combination of componets to make my rifle or handgun shoot like I want it.

So I did some casting with the NOE 358009, all the stats look good on it (without lube or check, .360" and 289 grains). I checked the lenght (1.132" without gas check, IIRC) and I'm wanting to use this for elk season this year. I know it isn't supposed to stabilize in a 1-16" barrel, but I'm gonna try it anyway. My plan has always been to launch this thing at about 2000-2300 fps (if I can get good accuracy) with ACWW and Lars Carnuba Red.

Just for giggles I ran the Greenhill formula the other night. It was showing that a 1-16" twist barrel should stabilize a bullet from .358-.360" and up to a bullet of 1.200" in length. I haven't put a gas check on but I'm guessing that check won't be .068" in thickness, though I could be wrong (meaning it should come in at 1.200" or darn close).

Running the Miller formula on JBM though, I'm getting about 2.2-2.3, which to stabilize they state it should be between 1.3 & 2.0.

So I got curious and decided to check the length of my 250 grain Nosler Partitions and 250 grain Speer Hot Cors. Lo and behold, both are longer than the #358009 (without the check of course, haven't had time to do more than cast these up). The Speer bullet is an excellent bullet in my rifle, even with the 1-16" twist. The Nosler does fine though not as accurate as the Speer. I know the Speer stabilizes out to 250 yards as I've put it on paper that far, I haven't put the Nosler's out that far on paper, but they 4" clays at 250+ yards are no problem, so I never bothered.

Here's the question. Those that have tried the #358009 and 1-16" twist, I'd be interested in the particulars. Specifically, barrel length of the rifle and velocity of the load you were using and at what distance they failed to stabilize. If it worked out for you, I'd still like to know about your experience if you'd like to share.

I'm guessing I'll have to fall back to the 245 grain bullets (Saeco #352 or Lyman #358318), but I'm too hard headed not to at least try this new mould and see if I can make it work.

[waksupi]

You didn't say what chambering you are shooting it in. I get around 2170 fps, from my .358 Wins. Check that against the ballistics for 250 gr. jacketed, and you will see that is a plenty skookum load.

[insanelupus]

Sorry. This will be for a .35 Whelen with a 1-16" twist. I'd be tickled with 2100 fps or so, if it will stabilize. I figured after looking at the limited data on hand, I could go up to 2300 fps (provided the diameter was good and the lube is up to snuff) to make it stabilize. I hear mixed reports of it will/won't stabilize. Just trying to figure out if I'm banging my head against the wall or really have a chance to make this work.

Your 358s are all 1-16" twist too?

[44man]

Well, you are better off then trying to get a .44 to shoot from a 1 in 38" twist. You just need to shoot, forget about Greenhill, it does not work. Toss paper figures and gun comics into the burner barrel and test for yourself.
I would like to take the jerks that decided on the .44 twist, roll them in tar and slap all the paper work on them! :drinks:

[Bass Ackward]

The problem is NOT confusing stability with poor accuracy. Still, some 16 twists will and some won't.

You are NOT fighting world class friction from jacketed and thus short, high frequency barrel vibration. So what you have is low frequency oscillation and this creates wide velocity spaces between the accuracy nodes. So if you can't reach the next node, (bullet hardness or lube) you have poor accuracy that "appears" to be poor stabilization.

After many 35 Whelens, (big holes in sporter barrels) the worst offenders for this effect are free floated barrels. Tip pressure shortens the vibration swing and can allow BIG improvement in cast accuracy. You in fact bring the accuracy node to the velocity obtained from the load.

Launch it well, and it will fly well farther than you think.

I expand WDWW on chest shot, 120lb deer down to 1400 fps. Don't be afraid to harden that slug for elk. RL15 works for everything in a Whelen.

[insanelupus]

Bass,

Before I tried to find an accurate load my intention was to make sure the bullet stabilized. I found the thread where you discussed this and barrel length, (mine is 24"). If at 300 yards or so I still get round holes, then I'll worry about trying to get good groups. As long as the bullet makes round holes, then I can worry about group size using various powders and loads. And, I can always make a brass insert for the barrel channel as a pressure point under the point (similar to the old buisness card soaked in oil bit) to deal with barrel vibration.


44 Man,

I'm hoping I solved my 1-38" Marlin twist issue with the NOE 432-265 RD. We'll see, that's the next project in line!


Nothing like trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse eh?


Other than RL 15, I thought I'd also try to scrounge data for IMR 3031, H 4895, IMR 4064, and H 4831, or possibly IMR 4350. Two powders I haven't used in the past IMR 4198, or IMR 4320 might also be possible. Any other powder out there to recommend?

[missionary5155]

Good morning
The Greenhill Formula works ! If you are shooting artilery at the constant of about 1800 fps.
That was the design intent.... Artillery when Black Powder was THE propellant.

[waksupi]

Your 358s are all 1-16" twist too?

One is 1-12, one is 1-14.

[44man]

Bass,

Before I tried to find an accurate load my intention was to make sure the bullet stabilized. I found the thread where you discussed this and barrel length, (mine is 24"). If at 300 yards or so I still get round holes, then I'll worry about trying to get good groups. As long as the bullet makes round holes, then I can worry about group size using various powders and loads. And, I can always make a brass insert for the barrel channel as a pressure point under the point (similar to the old buisness card soaked in oil bit) to deal with barrel vibration.


44 Man,

I'm hoping I solved my 1-38" Marlin twist issue with the NOE 432-265 RD. We'll see, that's the next project in line!


Nothing like trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse eh?


Other than RL 15, I thought I'd also try to scrounge data for IMR 3031, H 4895, IMR 4064, and H 4831, or possibly IMR 4350. Two powders I haven't used in the past IMR 4198, or IMR 4320 might also be possible. Any other powder out there to recommend?
My 265 RD did not help but a home made boolit of 296 gr and 23 gr of 296 is doing better then any so far. I guess it is because the boolit weight equals the powder number! :bigsmyl2:

[felix]

Insane, if there is significant wind between 0 and 300 yards, the holes might not be round. The thing to look for is that the out-of-round holes are consistent in direction, meaning the (long) projectiles oriented themselves to compensate for the wind. That is what enough twist will do. Paying attention to the projectile offset is the name of the game, but only when the direction of the wind is VERY consistent. ... felix

[RobS]

My 265 RD did not help but a home made boolit of 296 gr and 23 gr of 296 is doing better then any so far. I guess it is because the boolit weight equals the powder number! :bigsmyl2:

If it were only that easy :razz:

[Bass Ackward]

As long as the bullet makes round holes, then I can worry about group size using various powders and loads.

Any other powder out there to recommend?



Not every load / powder is going to show stabilization. You are on the fringe. Sometimes, it can be brought in. Factory standard twist rates are developed for multiple load use. (factory loaded ammo)

Don't get discouraged at the first trial. One thing to keep in mind is that you don't have to have all that weight to penetrate in case that heavy don't work out to your satisfaction.

[insanelupus]

I have a Lyman 358318 I can use (two actually, a DC and a SC, but haven't cast from the SC) and I would like to get a hold of a Saeco #352 sometime if I could find a good used one at a reasonable price. But I really like the profile of this bullet and I typically like the heavier bullets.

But if it doesn't stabilize, it doesn't stabilize. I'll just keep the mould around to try in something else down the road. At this point it's more stubbornness to see if I can make it work!

[beagle]

Now, I don't have a Whelan but I do have a.35 Rem with a 1-16 twist and several years back I got to wondering?????

3589 293.4 grains Unique 12.5 1287 FPS 7.5 SD 3596
3589 293.4 grains MS4759 17.0 1336 FPS 15.3 SD 3596

I picked to random loads and loaded them up and tried them at 100 yards to see. Both loads went into about 3" at that range from my old 1949 Marlin and there was no sign of tipping or keyholing.

Now, I know these aren't streaker loads and I was fully expecting elongated holes and no holes but it surprised me at the results.

I know Jumptrap's 1-16 Whelan M95 Winchester won't handle them but mine apparently will.

I'm going back and mess with this some more when I get time.

Yeah, the Greenhill's for artillery ammo and really don't tell us squat about cast projectiles from my experience.

I have also found that HP bullets will sometimes improve stability so who knows what's happening along the path downrange./beagle

[sundog]

I know this is about 16 twist, but I have personal experience that a David Mos 358009 Improved will NOT keyhole at 200 yards in a 14 twist Shilen barrel, 35 Whelen. IIRC the load is 40/4895 for about 1900fps. In fact, that same rifle and load will break concrete slab stood on edge at about 75 yrads -- eh, Felix? Took a couple center shots, but it did did a number on it. Just like the hammer of Thor.

[AnthonyB]

I have one range session with a Remington 1-16 35 Whelen and the Lyman 3589. Don't remember the load but it didn't shoot as well as the 35818. Haven't tried the Mos 358009 sundog gifted me in that one yet, but it shoots house a'fire in the 1-12 twist 356 Winchester. Now I have the NOE 35809 to play with - I need to hurry up and retire.... Tony

[felix]

Yeah, Corky, that slab was full blown (lots of rebar) hiway concrete obviously dumped there at the river because it would take too much hammering to make fill-dirt filler. It was shot broadside at about a 15 degree angle. Two center shots at 75 yards about an inch apart at most sounds about correct. The concrete was fully cracked with about three veins. I do not remember the boolit composition, but assume something like about a month old WW plus a little of something using water cooling???? At least 1900 plus fps. SAECO sillywet 180 grainers clocked at 2400 (50 grains of 844/335) did NOT crack the concrete, but made impressive chips. Maybe some spider web cracks, but nothing compared to the 280 plus rounded wadcutters. ... felix

Accuracy, Corky shooting, at 2 firm inches at 200 yards firm with the rounded wadcutter (Mos boolit). ... felix

[Shuz]

I used to have a Rem Classic in .35 Whelen with a 1:16 twist. It would not stabilize the 358009 Lyman at .359, heat treated 3:1 alloy of Bhn 28 and 48g of 4064. The velocity was around 2100 fps. That same combo of boolit and powder shoots very well from my custom Douglass bbl 35 Whelen with a 1:12 inch twist. The velocity is again around 2100 fps.

I recently acquired a Rem 700 CDL in .35 Whelen and I have yet to try the 358009 in it. It also has a 1:16 twist. I will post the results when I get "a round toit"

From what I've seen on this site, some guns will shoot the 358009 in the .35 Whelen with a 1:16 twist and some...like my first Whelen, won't.
Try it and see, maybe yours will.

[John Boy]

Those that have tried the #358009 and 1-16" twist, I'd be interested in the particulars. Specifically, barrel length of the rifle and velocity of the load you were using and at what distance they failed to stabilize.
insanelupus, I ran a Stability Calculation for your bullet using the dimensions given:
5.09 - Stability Factory (SF)
SF > 1.5 = Bullet is maximally stabilized
2590 to 2602 - Minimum Velocity
1.13 - Maximum Length
1:16 - Minimum Twist

[insanelupus]

Tested the NOE 358009.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j66/insanelupus/358009.jpg



Using IMR-3031 and with a muzzle velocity average of 1950 fps lubed with Carnuba Red. At 100 yards, no signs of tipping.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j66/insanelupus/100yards.jpg


At 250 yards, I had trouble at the range getting the backing as straight up and down and facing the shooting house as I wanted. However, it did appear that two of the three rounds I shot were as straight as could be expected. One round I pulled (called it when I shot) and it hit the piece of cardboard that was bent under. Still, it shows the bullet went in straight and was not tipping. Also, the first two shots were within about 7" of one another. Not great accuracy by any means, but with open sights and a 1-16" twist and using IMR 3031, I didnt' feel too bad. I'll now start with IMR 4064 and H4895 trying to develop good accurate 100 yard loads and see where it gets me.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j66/insanelupus/250yards1.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j66/insanelupus/250yards2.jpg



All this proves is the bullet isn't keyholing and appears to be hitting on the target nose first and is really no indication of accuracy. Still, it is a starting place.

[JesterGrin_1]

Anymore info on that little 358009 in the Pea Shooter Whelen lol. Very interested. :)

[insanelupus]

Jester,

Yes and no. Subsequent testing has shown me that at 100 yards I'm not thrilled with IMR 3031, but then, I'm not a fan of it to begin with. I have some test loads of IMR 4064 loaded up, but I haven't gotten out to shoot them and will soon.

However, while I plan to keep the NOE mould I have, I don't think I'll be messing around too much more with the 358009 design in a 1-16" twist. I ran across a Saeco #352 245 grain bullet mould, double cavity, brand new for $80 and want to try it out and I have a Lyman #358318 to try as well.

I've decided, for now, to shelve this project. Namely because the throat on this rifle is shorter than I'd like it to be for this bullet design and I'm not about to ream the chamber throat to fit. I don't like seating bullets past the neck of the case, but I must for the 358009 design to allow it to chamber. Accuracy, while not stellar, has been okay, but not what I'd call great with IMR 3031. Basically, I have a limited amount of range time and as such, between the throat and the twist of the rifle, I just can't see bucking a stacked deck when I'm certain either the Saeco #352 and the Lyman #358318 will meet my needs without a lot of issues.

Life's too short to try and make something shoot what it wasn't designed for, but it was a fun project and if I come back to it this summer, I'll advise on it then.

The bottom line, for my rifle and loads was, yes it will shoot it, no I didn't see any signs of tipping or unstable bullets at 250 yards, (the practical distance for my hunting needs and open sights). Would it be minute of moose, elk, or deer? Sure. Are there better choices out there for this rifle? I think so, and I'm guessing more accurate ones as well. I'd rather have a rifle I can be confident is as accurate as I need it to be as well as having good terminal ballistics with a given bullet. All these bullets have good reputations for bigger game, it's just a question of finding the most accurate bullet and load. Unfortuneatly, while I can get it to shoot, it just isn't quite as accurate as I'd like to see it from this rifle.

[JesterGrin_1]

Thank You for the reply. The one I am going to be working with is a 1-14 twist which should do better.

Have you looked at the BRP 360-225 Gr Boolit? 357maximum has a bunch of good things to say about it. I think he is pushing it around 2500 to 2600 FPS with under 1 inch groups at 100 yards.

[insanelupus]

Yes, I have considered it. I know my rifle didn't care for the 220-225 grain jacketed bullets I tried, but any 250 could be made to shoot well. Therefore, I decided to stick with what I have at the moment, but it is a consideration if I don't find satisfactory results here.

Good luck with yours!