Curved Iron butt pads?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I really like the thought of owning some classic looking rifles for black powder and boolit shooting, but I have noticed that the majority of these guns have cruel looking butt pads. (1876 Winchester, Remington rolling block, Sharps, etc) How does anyone shoot rifles with iron pads comfortably? I used to have a Winchester 1873 made by Uberti in 45colt with a curved iron pad, recoil was not bad but I was inclined to think it would be very brutal in any serious rifle caliber like a 45-70. Is it just me? Am I doing something wrong?

[405]

No, it's normal. If the stock fits well and the charge is not too heavy I shoot them as they are. If in a caliber that recoils a lot or in a large caliber I shoot heavier charges in, I add a leather butt pad. Simple to make. Rectangular piece of thick leather that will overlap up each side of the buttstock. Punch holes and add laces for top and bottom. The key is to add a crescent shaped spacer to fill up the concave void between the flat leather pad and the crescent buttplate. I've also use the commercially available leather lace up pads but still have to add the crecsent shaped spacer.

[obssd1958]

I have a Traditions .54 cal ML, and if I shoot it from the bench - working up loads, trying different boolits - I seem to inevitably get cut by the top of the buttplate. I too would welcome something commercially available to fill that crescent shape and make it less painful to shoot!!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m9/obssd1958/shooting/curvedbuttplatescar.jpg

[waksupi]

Most people try to hold a crescent butt plate on their shoulder incorrectly. Rather than mounting it to the shoulder as you would a shotgun type butt, the crescent type should sit above the bicep, on the upper arm.

[docone31]

On that Traditions .54.
If you sand a slightly different shape into the very end, I believe you will feel a difference. I routinely do it with all of mine. I have large shoulders, and they are made for average shooters.
You do not have to change it much, just a tad, and it makes all the difference.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Most people try to hold a crescent butt plate on their shoulder incorrectly. Rather than mounting it to the shoulder as you would a shotgun type butt, the crescent type should sit above the bicep, on the upper arm.

Wait so I have been mounting it up wrong? I can live with that, but let me just make sure. I normally mount up any shotgun or rifle in the “pocket” sort of in-between the muscles from my shoulder and collar bone; I guess it would be mainly on my pectoral muscle. So I should place a crescent shaped butt pad out on my arm just above the bicep? I am open to admit I am wrong, but that almost sounds more painful then mounting it up in the normal place.

[Dale53]

I shot black powder cartridge silhouette for fifteen years. Those butt plates are an invention of the devil. Even a shotgun style made from iron works on you after 20-30 shots much less up to 100 shots of full house loads with 422 gr bullets (.40 caliber) to 522+ bullets (.45 Caliber).

I managed to "get along" with the use of a "Past" Shoulder pad. If I had had any sense, I would have cut the stock to the proper length and installed a really good recoil pad (Pachmayr Decelerator or a "Limbsaver"). No, I wanted to be "authentic" (as if shooting a C. Sharps Model 1875 or a modern Browning 1885 rifle was "authentic"). It probably cost me a match or two, but at least I was "semi authentic" whatever the dickens THAT is...

Oh, what fools mortals be...:rolleyes:

Dale53

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I agree with Dale 53, except I think the Anti Christ got in on the design as well. At the range last month I shot Buckshot's .40 cal. rolling block three times. The recoil was quit severe. I asked him what load he was using and he said it was a 400 grain bullet. I think the powder was 30-31 but I don't remember the exact charge but it didn't seem excessive, something like 25 grains. When I pulled off my shirt that night I noticed a large blood blister on the right side of my chest. I didn't take a picture but I did show it to my wife. She thought I had suffered a blunt force trauma. I have several large bore rifles and I try to keep the bullets light and the powder charge low. MY 45.70 gets 15 grains of unique. My 38.55 load is 15 grains of 47.59. I still get velocities that are as good or better than black powder. While we or on the subject just in case someone wishes to disagree with dale 53 and I, the British didn't go in for such nonsense when they built heavy recoiling rifles. They used shotgun style butt plates covered with soft leather.

[Dale53]

When the modern Marlin 1895 in .45/70 was introduced. I got a chance to shoot a fellow club member's rifle. This one was introduced with a curved buttplate made of hard plastic. It was summer and I shot it while wearing only a "T"shirt. It was loaded with a 400 gr bullet at near 2000 fps. I immediately regretted THAT action. I was bleeding.

However, I admired the gun and sometime later I bought a good used one with Ballard rifling (a twin to the one I shot).

I didn't even shoot it before I took it over to a stock maker friend and had him shorten it properly and fit a GOOD recoil pad. It is NOW a near perfect woods gun for the heaviest of big game.

Over the years I mostly shot it with a Lee 340 gr cast bullet at black powder velocities. It is a most comfortable rifle under those circumstances. Loaded full house with a 400 gr bullet you can feel your eyeballs bulge when the "Big Light" goes on!!

Dale53

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well, admitedly, I'm an Ol'Coot, but also must be a wimp as I have never been one to enjoy a lot of pain just to show how tough I am.

Friend had two Marlin 45/70s, one of the short guide guns with the muzzle break and a cowboy version with the curved butt.

He wouldn't shoot the CB, as it was painful, while he enjoys the ported rifle.

I told him to take off that curved butt, and install a GOOD recoil pad, but he didn't want to change the rifle and finally sold it.

I had been thinking about a 45/70 for awhile, and thought about buying the Marlin CB which would have QUICKLY been made into a shooter.

I hear horror stories about people shooting a RUGER #3 with the excessive drop in the butt and the curved metal butt - at least two friends have been talked into shooting one, once - and am glad I have not been there and done that.

Now with the kitten soft trapdoor loads, that would be one thing, but I didn't buy my #1-s to shoot such loads.

Shortly after getting the rifle home, the thin Ruger pad was replaced with a good/thick Decelerator pad and I still wondered what I had gotten myself into, UNTIL I got my 2X7 Leupold scope mounted and got the higher head position.

With a rcbs 405 Boolit at about 1400fps, it was anything but pleasent to shoot, the pain, coming from the cheek being beat by the stock comb while trying to use a low head position with the factory iron sights.

Once the head was more erect for use of the scope, no more problem and that with 350gr loads in the 2100 - 2200fps range.

Don't even want to think about shooting one of those loads in anything but a rifle with a well designed butt stock COMPLETE WITH a nice/thick,SOFT recoil pad.

Call me what you want, but I like to shoot and don't find great amounts of pain making it a more enjoyable experience.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[waksupi]

Try it out. That is how I was taught to shoot the old rifles, and it allows the recoil to move the arm back, with lots less punishment than the way you are doing it.


Wait so I have been mounting it up wrong? I can live with that, but let me just make sure. I normally mount up any shotgun or rifle in the “pocket” sort of in-between the muscles from my shoulder and collar bone; I guess it would be mainly on my pectoral muscle. So I should place a crescent shaped butt pad out on my arm just above the bicep? I am open to admit I am wrong, but that almost sounds more painful then mounting it up in the normal place.

[sundog]

I dislike curved butt plates.

[Dale53]

I have always admired the Ruger #3 for a nice light woods rifle at a VERY decent price for a high quality single shot rifle. My particular desire was for a .45/70. I had NO illusions about that dern butt plate (it's not iron but a carbine style in plastic). Again, before I shot it I took it to my good friend and stockmaker Bernie Harrell and had him fit a good quality THICK recoil pad. It is NOW a dandy woods rifle.

My choice of bullet for the .45/70 for deer hunting is the Lyman 457322 hollow point Gould bullet. My preference would be that bullet at black powder velocities cast of 30/1 lead/tin. I really lean towards a duplex load of 10% (by weight) of RL-7 under 2F Swiss Black powder.

You can shoot this load all day long without fouling out and it has slightly greater velocity than a straight black powder load. Clean up takes less than 5 minutes.

What's not to like?

Dale53

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Try it out. That is how I was taught to shoot the old rifles, and it allows the recoil to move the arm back, with lots less punishment than the way you are doing it.



Well thanks for the tip, I’ll have to give it a try next time the opportunity lends it self. I still like Dale’s idea though.

[timkelley]

I was contemplating this very problem today as I was shooting my Rossi '92' clone chambered in 45 Colt. I just love to shoot it with eight grains of Unique. Not so much with a max load (23+ grains) of H110. Didn't matter where I held it on my arm or shoulder it hurt. Then the light went on:shock:, what if I don't shoot those any more. I sent the rest of them down range from my Bisley Ruger and I won't load any more. At 65 I have enough pains without making any more.

[Frank46]

Shot a winnie 1895 rifle in 405 win ONCE. That darn curved buttplate smarted. Shouldhave seen the guy's past recoil sheild first off. Frank

[ktw]

I shoot a Lyman Great Plains in 54 Caliber. It has a pretty radically curved butt plate.

I'm with Waksupi on this one. It just needs to be mounted further out on the shoulder, far enough out so that the toe of the but is under your armpit rather than resting against your pectoral muscle. Shot that way it's a ***** cat. mounting it there doesn't feel the least bit unnatural.

As it came fromt he factory the curved butt plate on that Lyman has some pretty sharp edges. I did take the edge of them without changing the shape of the piece. I already had a knife to gut with and didn't need a butt plate for that.

-ktw

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Morn'in Timkelly,

Have not shot or handled your rifle, but did have a Marlin .44 that beat me up!!!!

I'd go around for hours afterward whipping at my nose and expecting to see blood with every stroke.

The problem was that excessive drop in the butt stock AND most of all, a stock which was waaaaaay toooooo short.

Because of the short stock, my thumb was beating my nose with every shot, making the rifle a PAIN!!!!!!!!! to shoot.

I took off the standard butt plate, and added a nice thick recoil pad and problem solved.

Didn't need the pad so much for the recoil, as the added stock length which moved the thumb away from the face.

My standard load, was the same one used in my .44 Redhawk, a 310gr. LBT boolit head of 19gr of AA #9 which gives a tad over 1300fps from my 5.5" RH.

This was a good thumper in the Marlin, but once the butt stock issue was taken care of it was a lot of fun to shoot.[smilie=w:

So, you might look at your rifle/stock and think back to what part of your body is being beat upon. Just maybe an increase of stock length might help out.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[405]

Well, I guess it all depends on the gun. If you have a repro or newer gun it's a fielder's choice about cutting off the butt plate and adding a modern pad. However, if you want to cut the curved plate off an old original so be it, just makes mine more valuable. [smilie=w:

Even on a more modern custom built muzzleloader with a curved butt plate I wouldn't opt for a modern, shotgun style pad. Therefore, that's the whole point in adding a lace up leather "overpad" to a gun with a curved butt plate..... doesn't affect the value of the gun, doesn't affect the aesthetics of the gun, helps prevent bruised shoulders and protects the buttplate when put on the ground.

No, I'm not going to cut the curved butt plate off my original Win 1895 in 405 nor the original Win 1886s in 45-70 nor the modern Sharps nor the custom muzzle loaders.... they all have add-on leather pads. And no I'm not going to shoot my 416 Jgun with the butt out in the "pocket" between my shoulder and upper arm. :shock:

[timkelley]

Old Coot, the stock fits me, I'm just whiney. Lot of guys say a 92 or 94 stock is too short for them,. I'm not very big so they are great for me.
I just gave up on the kickers.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
We need to remember back when the curved butt was used extensively most fellers were not walking on the range in a short sleve shirt. When it gets that hot critters are holed up in the thick bottom stuff where we are not gonna get a shot even hardly see anything moving in that jungle. In the hot time when I am sitting behing my cross sticks I have folded hand towel between my bony little shoulder and the 45´s . Even my double 12 guage with .685 round ball at 1500+ fps is not painful .

[casterofboolits]

I've never shot the rifles you guys are talking about. I like 03's and Garands.

A buddy talked me into firing his 458 Win mag ONCE!!!!! When I got my breath back, he pushed the box with nineteen rounds toward me and said "shoot em up". I said no thanks and suggested he put them where the sun don't shine.

Shooting is supposed to be fun, not painful.

[kennisondan]

I just took some old leather that was kind of thick and sewed it up and stuffed the middle with a thick foam.. sewed the leather by hand with an hand awl..
it looks original, like an original that was sewn by some plainsman as his first work of leather pad sewing, so it is really original .. put it in position on my brother's Buffalo gun and it helped a whole lot.
I shot it on my Marlin 45 70 CBoy and now it resides on my sharps repro... I have not gotten around to trying to make a pad for raising the cheek weld but put something on it for a starter to see what works.. I do know with the tang sight it will be a good idea to have a pad if it is short for me, but regardless, I am going to figure how to sew one up...
you would not be interested in my work by the way, I am not an artisan. I am a coon asse... with a leather awl and no training, not formal, no informal, no talent.. I just figured it may be more period correct if it was done kind of on the rough like maybe I learned how to do it as I did it... hope the cheek pad goes better or at least easier.. lol.. my short memory left me with very little recall of the experience.. \if it hurts you to shoot, then you will learn to flinch..however you do it whether loading it down, different geometry, changing the pad to a real recoil pad ( brother's buff gun now has top of the line limbsaver.. he aint crazy ) even sewing some leather scraps together and stuffing them .. enjoy your rifle, enjoy firing it, it is worth it to shoot and enjoy it unless you are a collector of things you preserve pristinely and unshot.. that is just my take on it..
it is all in fun.
dk
dk

[Dale53]

On thing has not been mentioned here. REGARDLESS of what modifications you will do or not do to your rifle, if you are going to compete with it, BEFORE you make ANY modifications, READ THE RULEBOOK!

There is nothing sadder than an individual who has made "cool" modifications only to learn that his rifle is now illegal. I have seen people win matches, then get "ruled out". I have seen people drive hundreds of miles to compete only to be told "NO". It is not pretty.

So, check the rule book carefully, get a ruling BEFORE you make changes, then do whatever spins your propeller and ENJOY!!

Dale53

[DIRT Farmer]

As others have said, there is a right way to shoot big boomers and curved butt plates and it is not painful if done right, I have shot them for years, up to 75swith RB and stupiood powder charges for deer. I have learned most deer are not bullet proof finaly and don't load that way now. If a traditionan rifle is placed out on the sholder I think you will find the stock will fit better and the sights will line up better for you, as this is the way the rifle was designed.

[Springfield]

I just put buttstock covers on mine. Some simple and some fancy, either way it takes some of the sharp edges off and I can put a pad in there if need be.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/mwhyte123/newcover.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/mwhyte123/buttstockcrescent.jpg

[KCSO]

Waksupi is right the cresent doesn't go into the shoulder on the arm. The cresent buttPLATE hooks into the arm and helps offset the weight of the barrel for OFFHAND shooting. They were not made for bench or such but for OFFHAND work.

[82nd airborne]

While youre on the subject, does anyone get theyre cheek bone bashed in when shooting a synthetic rem 870 with 3 1/2" loads? If so, how do you keep that from happening? Keep in mind I cant hit a cardinal direction shooting from the hip, so thats bad advice....

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Those loads have a lot of "come back" built into every load, sooooo?

If you can stand the length, you might lengthen the butt a tad.

That sure helped with the Marlin .44mag I had.

Took the bite right out of the rifle.

But, and this is a very big "but", even with my normal .44 diet of 310gr cast LBT boolits ahead of 19gr of AA#9, the 44 didn't have the come back those 3 1/2"
"12s".

3" -- 2oz turkey loads are more then enough for me!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[obssd1958]

I have a Mossberg, Ulti-mag. Bought it the first year they were out. One of the funniest things I've seen was when I first took it out to try it out. I had two of my co-workers with me, and we were shooting a variety of guns that day. After shooting several 2 3/4 field loads, I decided it was time to try out the 3 1/2" goose loads that I had bought. I held on, but evidently not quite enough, as when the smoke cleared, I had taken 2 steps back and the recoil had knocked my baseball cap off and my glasses askew...
The smaller of my 2 co-workers said "BS, let me try that" - so I did. Had the other one not stepped up behind him, he would have ended up in the dirt! He handed the shotgun back to me, and walked away muttering "some things are just not funny". I think he was referring to the 2 of us laughing uncontrollably at his expense.
Yes, my composite stocked Mossberg slaps the **** out of my cheekbone. Bought a neoprene sleeve and I keep the stock tight to my shoulder. Works for me!

Take care!


Don

[Rockydog]

obssd, Those early 835s were/are wicked. IIRC Recoil on a 12 ga 3.5" 2 oz load is right at 60 foot pounds of energy. That places it right between a .416 Rigby and a .458 Win Mag. on an actual ft ponds basis. Not taken into account is the fact that shotgun powder ignites quicker than rifle powder and the faster pressure curve seems to add a "snap" to the recoil that some folks feel is a bit sharper than the heavy "shove" of the rifles. RD