Case thickness sizes boolit?

[Whistler]

I've been experimenting a lot with my lead boolits for .38 Special the last year.
Primarily I've been using the Lee TL358-158-SWC.

Accuracy is decent by competetive standards and I've tried many different loads.

I've tried this in three different revolvers, two of which had .3585" throats and 11 degree forcing cone and one revolver that was factory standard. I have tried sizing to both .357 and .358 as well as using them as dropped about .359-360". I have tried both air cooled and water quenched wheel weights.

What I've come up with is that no matter what load, what crimp, what lube or whatever, the only thing that gives me a totally clear bore after shooting +50 shots is when using my old and many times reloaded Federal nickle cases. Any other case and it will lead like crazy.

Can it be that newer cases and those of different brands are thicker in the walls, which reduces the diameter of the boolits? Could it be that my Redding sizer size the cases too small?

[nicholst55]

The simple way to check that is to first measure some boolits, then seat and crimp them in a handful of dummy cartridges, then pull and measure the boolits.

[Whistler]

Good idea! I've done that though. Can't see any real difference since I only have a digital caliper and not a micrometer.

[Bret4207]

Yes, it's entirely possible, very common actually. You could try some of the other brass and just partially size it. If that indicates promise there are people who can open you dies or you may find another set of dies has larger dimensions. A tight set of dies is a good thing in some respects and not so good in others.

[Whistler]

Bret4207: Thank you for your comment. By "partially size it", do you mean that I should unscrew the sizing die? Can the sizing portion of the die be tapered?

[405]

Yes to all ideas. Several things could be going on. Alloy hardness, case wall thickness, hardness of case, re-sizing of case, crimping. Of course all or in combination could squeeze bullet down or distort it to less than desirable condition. If working with a revolver it's always a balancing act of best fit in throats/bore while maintaining ease of loading. No easy answer but if you have a successful round then look at duplicating it no matter the type of case.

[Whistler]

As I wrote, I have narrowed it down to where only the choice of case affects the amount of leading. I can vary crimp, load, OAL and alloy and still have no leading as long as I use the worn Federal nickle cases.

[utk]

Have you checked the dimensions of your expander? Some people say that today's dies are made for jacketed bullets and don't expand the cases enough for soft lead boolits. If I remember correctly, an expander for .358 boolits should be .356 or .357

[44man]

Revolvers NEED case tension and the only way to get it is with hard enough boolits that resist being sized when seated. Crimp should only be the edge rolled into the groove without adding more pressure to bulge brass below the crimp to ruin tension.
Increasing expander size takes accuracy away and soft boolits can not only be sized with tight brass but can fail to open crimp only to be scraped smaller. I find many cases on the range that are still showing crimp and that means the boolit was forced through a smaller hole.
Lyman "M" dies are death to accuracy. You want the boolit to expand the brass not the other way around. The best accuracy I get is from the Hornady dies where the expander only enters the case about 3/8" leaving the boolit to finish seating in brass that has not been expanded. That takes hard lead.
Every test I have made shows the harder the alloy, the better they shoot. The faster the powder, the harder the lead has to be, up to 28-30 BHN.
When you fool with brass to protect soft lead in a revolver you don't do yourself any favors.

[Bret4207]

Bret4207: Thank you for your comment. By "partially size it", do you mean that I should unscrew the sizing die? Can the sizing portion of the die be tapered?

Yes, back the die off a bit and see if you can still get the cartridge to chamber. It's similar to partially neck sizing a rifle case.

You can make softer alloys work, it just takes some fooling around,

[geargnasher]

Let's not forget some things about brass. For one, nickel cases are thinner than regular brass cases and then are supposed to be plated up to about the same thickness. Sometimes nickel ends up being thinner.

Brass has a memory, because it is springy. As it gets older and work hardens, that springiness is affected. An old case will spring back more than an annealed case will after sizing, so using thin, worn, nickel, cases can in effect make a larger case mouth when you seat the boolit.

Any crimp left on fired brass is NOT indicative of the size of the boolit that came out of it, as the crimp flexes back after the boolit passes. Kinda like a Rat's turd cutter. Any crimp left is probably a sign of overcrimping (common among reloaders), hard brass, or light loads and too-soft boolits, because the pressure behind the boolit should iron it out, even jacketed bullets sometimes leave crimp if they were overcrimped into a deep cannelure and the load was too light.

44man, I have to agree with you, I've tried the things you say and it DOES make a big difference, but, you're talking about a whole different philosophy! I use soft alloys in my low-pressure stuff (most of what I shoot) and one-hole groups at 25 yards aren't my goal. I like the hard, WFN designs in long range Magnum shooting, the WFN only becuase they would be used for hunting, most definitely the way to go. Who told you that WFNs tumble at extended range? They are full o'bull in my limited experience.

Gear

[9.3X62AL]

When you fool with brass to protect soft lead in a revolver you don't do yourself any favors.

Mmmmph-mmmphhhh-mmmmph (Sounds of me being stifled and seated before erupting).

Maybe, maybe not. In autopistols, you'd BETTER tailor your brass to the boolit dimensions--and use sufficiently hard boolit alloy--or look forward to mining some lead. Maybe we're saying the same thing, since we agree on sufficient boolit metallurgy--but I dote on the Lyman M-die, and so do my rifles, revolvers, and autopistols.

[dbldblu]

Ed Harris wrote that the most accurate 38 Spcl loads he ever loaded he did not size the cases at all. He deprimed, reprimed, charged with powder, seated the bullet (HBWC) and then crimped with the Lee factory crimp die. I tried this but, with cases from my revolver, the bullets fell in too far just from their own weight. I made a custom M die that flares sized cases to .360 which is just about right. I can seat the bullets with pressure from my thumb. They stop at a level determined by how far the M die was inserted. Then I use the FC die. So, seating the bullets is not sizing them down. I don't think the FC die does either but have not pulled and measured any. Testing is ongoing.

[jmsj]

Whistler,
I have found when using the standard expander plug (Lyman dies) while loading low power target loads and soft lead, the bullet will get sized down and not seal the bore and they lead the barrel.
I think gearnasher is on to something when he says the "Brass has a memory, because it is springy". I had a similar thought a couple of days ago while building a "M" die expander plug(didn't know you could buy them). I am casting and sizing for .358, I read where you need .002 grip from the case. I thought I would try to make the bottom step on the expander .358 also, later if needed I could turn it down a little more. It turns out the expander must expand the case to .358 when it goes in but it springs back down a little when the expander is removed.
I tried a .358 dia bullet and it would go in to the top of the case(second step on expander) but did not go past this point. I pushed harder and got it started but it would not go in very far. The rounds loaded w/ my home made expander stopped all the leading and my groups got a lot better. So maybe a bigger expander may help w/ your regular brass cases.
Good luck, jmsj

[Doc Highwall]

Check out my thread on modifying dies for cast bullet shooting under reloading equipment. You will see that dies are mostly made for jacketed bullets and jacketed bullet diameters not for bullets that are typically .001" to .002" larger.

[geargnasher]

Whistler,
I have found when using the standard expander plug (Lyman dies) while loading low power target loads and soft lead, the bullet will get sized down and not seal the bore and they lead the barrel.
I think gearnasher is on to something when he says the "Brass has a memory, because it is springy". I had a similar thought a couple of days ago while building a "M" die expander plug(didn't know you could buy them). I am casting and sizing for .358, I read where you need .002 grip from the case. I thought I would try to make the bottom step on the expander .358 also, later if needed I could turn it down a little more. It turns out the expander must expand the case to .358 when it goes in but it springs back down a little when the expander is removed.
I tried a .358 dia bullet and it would go in to the top of the case(second step on expander) but did not go past this point. I pushed harder and got it started but it would not go in very far. The rounds loaded w/ my home made expander stopped all the leading and my groups got a lot better. So maybe a bigger expander may help w/ your regular brass cases.
Good luck, jmsj

Whisler, I've been harping on this for a while. Seems that the equipment we buy is almost all made for jacketed bullets, and new casters all seem to go through he!! trying to figure out why the have leading problems. Getting anyone to listen and understand that their equipment is the problem is difficult, especially when common knowledge outside this board is "make 'em harder so they won't lead".

44man is one of the few here that uses extremely hard boolits for certain applications, and for some things they work extremely well, I've done it too. However, NOT for most of your pistol shooting, and certainly NOT .38 special.

When you make boolits harder, the ONLY reason that they might lead less is because they are getting squeezed less when seated and fired, so are likely fitting the barrel correctly whereas softer boolits are getting choked to death by the brass which wasn't properly expanded.

But I'm preaching to the choir.

Gear

[Whistler]

geargnasher: You might be preaching to the choir, but it is very nice to get confirmation that we're singing right. ;)

44man might have found something that works for him, but like others in this thread I am also of the opinion that boolit hardness should be adapted to the kind of load you are shooting - in my case (no pun intended - OK, maybe a little) that means soft boolits for soft target loads. In my hotter .44 Magnum loads I use a gas checked design that is very accurate up to 200 yards. No leading at all even though it is aircooled WW alloy.

Back to topic:
I recall one moment of wonder when I loaded some Lee 358-105-SWC in .357 Mag cases for use as .38 Special loads in my PPC revolver. There was no leading at all, and now when I think of it I did actually turn the sizing die up a lot to compensate for the longer case. I will check that with my other loads and cases and see if a higher set sizing die will affect the loads. In all probability it will.

This has been a great thread so far, thank you all for great input.

[44man]

Well, I am a revolver accuracy nut but I went through years and years of soft lead, mostly in the .38, .357 and .44. The .38 always gave me the most trouble even with a larger expander. The main cause was slump and fast powder like Bullseye that slammed the boolit into the rifling too fast and hard. Recovered boolits showed the grease grooves were gone and boolits skidded causing leading not only in the bore but on the guns frame and cylinder fronts.
Recovered .44 Keiths no longer were a Keith and GG's were also smashed away. Things got worse with Unique or 231. I learned long ago that "light" loads apply more instant force to lead.
Jerry came to pick up his Freedom .454 yesterday. I loaded him 50 rounds with a PB 300 gr boolit using 26 gr of 296. He went down to shoot and had 6" patterns at the far left edge of the paper. I finished splitting wood and went down, shot 5 from his gun and had a 3/4" group just above the bullseye at 50 yards.
I took my .475 BFR down to check the Ultra Dot because it had turned from torque. I had it straight, shot 2 at 50 and they were in the bull, touching, so I swung to a beer can at 100 and blew it off with a center hit. 420 gr PB, water dropped WW metal.
Jerry was a little set back and could do little more then laugh at his shooting.
You don't need super hard boolits, just tough enough but those little charges of super fast powder will need harder.
I will no longer go through trying to shoot soft lead, too many problems not worth the trouble when just an alloy change will fix it.
I will never understand why soft lead has to be shot from a target pistol, paper does not know the difference. Nobody has ever explained why dead soft lead just has to shot from a .38!
I might be dense at my age but it seems everyone here says soft can be shot but it takes special tools and more work----my question is always, "WHY DO IT?"
If I can get a .454 to shoot with a WW, PB boolit, why would I ever attempt anything softer? Counter productive "make work."
It reminds me of the time a supervisor had us break up a pile of snow on the airport ramp, spread it out to melt. Trouble was it was near dark and it all froze so he made us scrape it all up back into a pile. Then another told me to wash the gas truck outside, near dark. I put a fine spray on it and they had to push it into the hanger under the heater. It was out of service 8 hours! :bigsmyl2:
You that love soft lead need a supervisor! [smilie=l:

[geargnasher]

I might be dense at my age but it seems everyone here says soft can be shot but it takes special tools and more work----my question is always, "WHY DO IT?"
If I can get a .454 to shoot with a WW, PB boolit, why would I ever attempt anything softer? Counter productive "make work."
[smilie=l:

I don't know what you're calling soft, but WW metal can't be made to much over 23 bhn IME. Looks like you're using a lot of it. Air cooled it isn't "dead soft", either.

Air cooled wheel weights, the gold standard of boolit casting, aren't that soft. Most of mine fall around 12-14 bhn after I add some tin and let them age a few weeks. That is an ideal alloy for almost all my shooting. I water drop fro the .44 Magnum, cut it 50% with pure and water drop for most rifle hunting loads, but I don't use "dead soft" lead and I dont' think anyone else here is saying that's the way to go either. I detest wadcutters of any kind, they are unbalanced, have too much bearing surface, and are designed to be made out of just about pure lead. Leave that for the BP shooters.

The main reason I use the alloy I do is because it is more forgiving of barrel imperfections than super hard stuff, and it just plain works better than super-hard boolits do in my automatics, plus I get expansion as a bonus. I tended to get more leading with harder alloys, even with proper boolit fit, because lots of times the fit isn't perfect the whole way down the barrel. I tried a whole bunch of things with 23 BHN WFNs in my Ruger Vaquero .45 Colt, never could get it to stop leading at the front sight blade and the area where the novel is written with a roll-press on the upper left side. A switch to 14 BHN acww fixed it because the boolit was more flexible. Since then, a good firelapping has cured the issue and it may be good for harder boolits, but I'm not planning on trying that again in that gun.

The other thing, at least for me, is that I don't shoot custom-grade hand-howitzers with perfect barrels, timing, cylinder play, etc. at several hundred yards for groups like you do. Most I do is 100 with the .44 Magnum, and for that harder boolits are THE way to go. The rest of the time I'm shooting Italian revolvers or american-made automatics with production-grade barrels. My rifles use hard boolits.

Gear

[Echo]

OK. How about measuring the wall thickness of the case necks, measure the OD of the boolit, seat the boolit, then measure the OD of the loaded round? wouldn't that show if the case has sized down the boolit?

[Oyeboten]

OK. How about measuring the wall thickness of the case necks, measure the OD of the boolit, seat the boolit, then measure the OD of the loaded round? wouldn't that show if the case has sized down the boolit?


I believe it would...

[Bret4207]

Gear, you'll have a hard time convincing some folks that their way isn't the only way. Just because I can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done, and that works for everyone.

Once again we're back to "soft", "medium", "hard". We really should come to some consensus on the definitions and add the alloy make up if possible.

Brass spring back is one of those basics we forget to mention. It gets "rediscovered" about every 8-10 months.

[44man]

I don't know what you're calling soft, but WW metal can't be made to much over 23 bhn IME. Looks like you're using a lot of it. Air cooled it isn't "dead soft", either.

Air cooled wheel weights, the gold standard of boolit casting, aren't that soft. Most of mine fall around 12-14 bhn after I add some tin and let them age a few weeks. That is an ideal alloy for almost all my shooting. I water drop fro the .44 Magnum, cut it 50% with pure and water drop for most rifle hunting loads, but I don't use "dead soft" lead and I dont' think anyone else here is saying that's the way to go either. I detest wadcutters of any kind, they are unbalanced, have too much bearing surface, and are designed to be made out of just about pure lead. Leave that for the BP shooters.

The main reason I use the alloy I do is because it is more forgiving of barrel imperfections than super hard stuff, and it just plain works better than super-hard boolits do in my automatics, plus I get expansion as a bonus. I tended to get more leading with harder alloys, even with proper boolit fit, because lots of times the fit isn't perfect the whole way down the barrel. I tried a whole bunch of things with 23 BHN WFNs in my Ruger Vaquero .45 Colt, never could get it to stop leading at the front sight blade and the area where the novel is written with a roll-press on the upper left side. A switch to 14 BHN acww fixed it because the boolit was more flexible. Since then, a good firelapping has cured the issue and it may be good for harder boolits, but I'm not planning on trying that again in that gun.

The other thing, at least for me, is that I don't shoot custom-grade hand-howitzers with perfect barrels, timing, cylinder play, etc. at several hundred yards for groups like you do. Most I do is 100 with the .44 Magnum, and for that harder boolits are THE way to go. The rest of the time I'm shooting Italian revolvers or american-made automatics with production-grade barrels. My rifles use hard boolits.

Gear
No, I rarely use real hard stuff, water dropped WW's is what I shoot most.
I tried air cooled in my SBH and could not tighten groups. I found annealing the gas checks REALLY helped but don't ask me why.
When I want smaller groups from any of my revolvers I add a little antimony and tin to take it from 22 to 25 BHN, water dropped.
When I shot a PB boolit of 50-50 WW and pure I was getting a massive amount of fliers even when I oven hardened them. Going to the same boolit made for a gas check brought groups in tight with just an occasional flier, not out much. Good for deer.
I do experiment with alloys to 30 BHN and shot the smallest groups with a Keith that I ever got in 56 years shooting the things. My 30 BHN boolits are not brittle, I stay away from lino, etc.
None of my guns get leading with any of this lead and 50-50 leaves the bore clean too.
The only time I had trouble with the .44 was when a guy sent test boolits long ago. Way too soft and I would have been better off just pouring lead through the barrel. I tried everything with the brass, even shooting single shot with unsized and all kinds of powder because he wanted test results. Had to clean out lead about 20 times during the tests. I melted the rest down.
But your are correct, almost all of my shooting is with WW's or not far from it. I only experiment with harder to learn what happens.
When a revolver gets too fast like my 45-70, I need to work with softer for some expansion. This is harder to do and I can blow groups real fast but it has taught me what shoots good enough for deer to 100 yards. If I want less then 1" groups at 100 I go to 22 to 25 BHN in all of my revolvers. I actually out shoot XTP's.
This is what my .475 does at 100 with 22 BHN. I set the Ultra Dot right on top of the can. 420 gr PB boolit. All of my revolvers do this.

[44man]

By the way, my .475 has not been cleaned in a year, thousands of shots. It has to be a cold day when I clean a gun and some times I just clean the cylinder so I can add clean lube to the pin.
My SBH once went 2 years without cleaning and I am still shooting some brass shot 42 times now. I counted the slashes in the box top. [smilie=1:
If you think I am cheap and lazy, you might just be right! :veryconfu

[Bret4207]

I found annealing the gas checks REALLY helped but don't ask me why.
.

Chances are because it allowed the check to fit the grooves more closely.

[Whistler]

I got this from Redding:


Hi [my name],

Thank you for using Redding Reloading Equipment. The sizing die is designed work with the thinnest brass allowed by S.A.A.M.I Specification. I'm sorry but Redding only makes a .356 sized expander for the .38 Special with a .357" diameter bullet. Have you tried putting a little more bell on the case mouth. The only other possibility is the expander for the 9-mm Makarov which measure .363" and is .500" longer. But I don't think that would give you enough neck tension.

Regards,

Chris Fox
Customer Service