New problem with wheel weights

[mastercast.com]

The folks that make wheel weights are now alloying them with calcium to harden them instead of antimony. Lead with calcium content will not make a bullet that is worth a rip. The lube grooves will look like they are frosted,(undersized at that point) the sharp edges that need to be there will not be in evidence, and you will cast a most nasty bullet. Combine that with the risk of zinc wheel weights in the mix....it ain't worth it.

Darned shame!!!!!!!

Tire shops in my area call me all the time wanting to sell wheel weights...like they are all lead in content......I quit buying them a long time ago when Zinc was introduced to the mix. Add calcium to the mix...no way.

[fredj338]

How do you know it's calcium & just not zinc? We pretty much are down tonothinbg lead here, so it's berm mining form now on around here.

[mastercast.com]

One of the guys that works in a local crime lab here is a bullet caster. He was having a problem getting decent bullets out of a batch of wheel weights. He took some of that "wheel weight alloy" to the lab and ran it through a gas chromatograph.(I think I spelled that correctly) He found high calcium content in the lead. Wondering why, he called a few wheel weight manufacturers and was told that they now use calcium to harden the lead instead of antimony because it is MUCH cheaper.

I frankly had NO IDEA that you could alloy calcium with lead until now.

[fredj338]

One of the guys that works in a local crime lab here is a bullet caster. He was having a problem getting decent bullets out of a batch of wheel weights. He took some of that "wheel weight alloy" to the lab and ran it through a gas chromatograph.(I think I spelled that correctly) He found high calcium content in the lead. Wondering why, he called a few wheel weight manufacturers and was told that they now use calcium to harden the lead instead of antimony because it is MUCH cheaper.

I frankly had NO IDEA that you could alloy calcium with lead until now.
Me neither, damn, another good source turned bad.:killingpc

[sagacious]

Calcium is actually a metal. In the same way that Sb dramatically increases the insoluble intermetallic content (read: decreases pourability) in Zn-contaminated lead, Sb also increases the problematic intermetallics in Pb/Ca alloys. This can catch a pourer by surprise if they're not aware of it. But there are some remedies, and in Pb/Ca alloys, hydrocarbon fluxing can help remove those intermetallics. Remember: flux early, flux often. Good luck.

[mold maker]

Are there any test for calcium like acid for zinc? What WW makers are using Ca in the mix?
This is already serious and getting worse.
I'm sure grateful for the inventory I already have.

[montana_charlie]

But there are some remedies, and in Pb/Ca alloys, hydrocarbon fluxing can help remove those intermetallics. Remember: flux early, flux often. Good luck.
I need an explanation of that advice.

When we 'flux' during smelting of raw scrap, it is (for us) a 'cleaning' process designed to remove contaminates from the surface of the molten metals...AND it is a 'mixing' process where we hope to blend all of the various metals in the scrap into an homogenous mass.

When actually casting (with clean metal) our 'fluxing' is an attempt to control oxidation...either by preventing it or (preferably) by reducing it back into the melt.

Is there some point (condition/temperature) where the calcium is free to come to the surface, making it removable during the smelting stage...or will it oxidize early so it can be skimmed from the pot during casting?

CM

[geargnasher]

MC, I think you would have to "un-react" the Ca/Sb bond to get rid of the calcium. The only way I know of is to keep adding antimony and skimming the resulting slush of Ca/Sb off of it until no more will form, then handle the dross like it was nuclear waste. Ca/Sb dross is supposed to react with moisture in the air to create deadly stibine gas, the stuff they use to fumigate rodents. Apparently, even a small amount of dross can make enough poisonous gas to easily kill you in a garage-sized room. One of the reasons not to use modern battery plates, they contain a high concentration of calcium to handle the heat and vibration.

Gear

[JIMinPHX]

He took some of that "wheel weight alloy" to the lab and ran it through a gas chromatograph.

He ran a metal through a G.L.C.???? That makes no sense to me what so ever. I've run a gas chromatograph before. The test specimen needs to be something that can evaporate or else the whole system doesn't work. I think that you have some bad information there somewhere.

[sagacious]

I need an explanation of that advice.

When we 'flux' during smelting of raw scrap, it is (for us) a 'cleaning' process designed to remove contaminates from the surface of the molten metals...AND it is a 'mixing' process where we hope to blend all of the various metals in the scrap into an homogenous mass.

When actually casting (with clean metal) our 'fluxing' is an attempt to control oxidation...either by preventing it or (preferably) by reducing it back into the melt.

Is there some point (condition/temperature) where the calcium is free to come to the surface, making it removable during the smelting stage...or will it oxidize early so it can be skimmed from the pot during casting?

CM
MC,
Your explanation above is pretty good. Note also that proper fluxing will remove entrained oxides and insoluble intermetallics-- the wetted lead oxides and particulates one often sees floating under the surface of the melt, especially in Pb/Sb alloys. The SbCa intermetallic looks exactly like that grainy stuff floating just under the surface of the melt.

Since the SbCa intermetallic is less dense than ww lead, after it forms (during smelting/refining, alloying, etc) it floats just under the surface. Fluxing can then remove it at that point in the same way that fluxing removes entrained lead oxides, as the reduction in surface tension during fluxing allows the entained contaminants to be wetted by the flux, and separate from the melt. Then it can be skimmed off as a clumpy or crumbly gray sludge.

Hope this answers your question. If not, just let me know.

[sagacious]

MC, I think you would have to "un-react" the Ca/Sb bond to get rid of the calcium. The only way I know of is to keep adding antimony and skimming the resulting slush of Ca/Sb off of it until no more will form, then handle the dross like it was nuclear waste.

Gear
The actual Ca content should be pretty low. I suspect that lead alloys with 1% or more Sb probably have more than enough Sb to combine all the Ca into intermetallics. Generous hydrocarbon fluxing seems like the best remedy. When dealing with troublesome intermetallics, fluxing at low temp (close to the melt temp) and lighting the flux smoke will really help remove the stuff ya want gone.

Regards. :drinks:

[home in oz]

This is interesting-I did not know about the calcium in wheel weights

[mastercast.com]

He ran a metal through a G.L.C.???? That makes no sense to me what so ever. I've run a gas chromatograph before. The test specimen needs to be something that can evaporate or else the whole system doesn't work. I think that you have some bad information there somewhere.

Sir,


He did not run it through a GLC....I have no idea what that is or was.

He ran it through a gas chromatograph....It vaporizes the sample and gives you a graph to determine the content of anything that is put in it. The G.L.C. is apparently old technoligy. No evaporation required...it vaporizes the sample....fumes I suppose create the graph.

The important thing is that calcium in being introduced to wheel weights.

[lwknight]

I wonder just how much lead could be reclaimed from the dross that casters and smelters toss into the nuclear waste pile?

[geargnasher]

I wonder just how much lead could be reclaimed from the dross that casters and smelters toss into the nuclear waste pile?

I wondered that myself, once, and re-processed an entire five-gallon steel bucket full of WW clips, bullet jackets, and smelting dross as well as a soup can full of the crud I skim off my pot (mostly wood ash), I torched the whole mess in my decommissioned 20lb propane tank smelter with a quart of dirty diesel fuel, tapped and stirred and shook it, carefully tapping lead droplets off of everything that came out of the pot.

All that work and fuel yielded five ounces of mystery metal.

Never again.

Gear

[Pertsev]

This site can be a wealth of info.Have been using WW for years. Did notice lately that crumbly stuff in the dross.Thought it was Zn.
Yes,flux and flux often ! Been using bits O bullet lube for initial flux,then good stir w/ a pine stick. Going to redouble my flix efforts.

[JIMinPHX]

Sir,


He did not run it through a GLC....I have no idea what that is or was.

He ran it through a gas chromatograph....It vaporizes the sample and gives you a graph to determine the content of anything that is put in it. The G.L.C. is apparently old technoligy. No evaporation required...it vaporizes the sample....fumes I suppose create the graph.

The important thing is that calcium in being introduced to wheel weights.

G.L.C. = gas chromatograph
It's the same thing.

I have used every type of gas chromatograph elution tube that I know to exist, from wax to titanium. I am not aware of any that are able to vaporize a metal like calcium or lead. Please check your facts.

[mastercast.com]

Bob,

In an earlier post you stated that the above will not work with anything that will not evaporate.

Your last post states that you have used every type of gas chromatograph elution tube that your know to exist, from wax to Titanium.

INTERNET EXPERT-

Please explain to me in great, GREAT detail how you got wax and/or Titanium to evaporate in order for you to test with G.L.C..

I have never seen cast iron evaporate.........Titanium?


EGAD!


Perhaps you might want to check your facts. I put a .45 pistol down on the table next to me today......oddly, it did not evaporate. I was ready for that, but for some reason it did not happen.

[mongo]

Hi all, I am new to casting. I have been learning a bunch here. I cast a bunch of .358 158gr semi wadcutters with melted down wheel weights. I used the white powder flus that midway sells and had good results. Now I am reading that wheel weights contain calcium that when mixed in the dross and gets wet it developes poison gas? I guess my question is ..Is it safe to use wheel weights? I have been reloading for more than 30 years but just started casting a couple of weeks ago. Still trying to learn. Thanks, Tom

[jr81452]

Mr. Mastercast.com,

You may want to slow down before you put your foot irrevocably into your mouth. I don't know what type of chromatography instrument your friend used to determine the presence of calcium in his Pb sample, but it was not likely a gas chromatograph. In order to use gas chromatography (more formally known as a gas-liquid-chromatograph or G.L.C.), the sample must vaporize below 300 °C, as that is generally the limit of the temperature range. Considering that neither Ca nor Pb will even melt at that temp, you can see the problem.

An elution tube, also known as a column, is a piece of glass or metal tubing (other substances such as wax are used for low temp samples) into which the sample you wish to analyze is placed.

The column, as Wikipedia so eloquently states ("The gaseous compounds being analyzed interact with the walls of the column, which is coated with different stationary phases. This causes each compound to elute at a different time, known as the retention time of the compound. The comparison of retention times is what gives GC its analytical usefulness.") does not vaporize.

So, when you are through having a tantrum over being questioned by someone on an internet forum, perhaps you could ask your friend to enlighten you as to what type of chromatograph he actually used to perform his analysis. It would also be nice if you could get him to state exactly what percentage of calcium was found, how he can be certain that his sample was not contaminated, and exactly which WW manufacturers he called for information. Until you can provide the answers to these questions, you are simply paroting hear-say and inciting unfounded worry in casters who use WW as a primary alloy source (as evidenced by the post above mine). The last thing the shooting community needs is more second hand boogy-man stories.

[zxcvbob]

But it is plausable that WW's would be contaminated with Ca (from battery plates) and Zn (from zinc weights) just because the companies that make them don't care how the metal casts -- they use die casting machines. All they should care about is that the weight is consistent within their tolerances, the lead is hard enough that the weights don't fall off, and they don't ruin alloy wheels.

But I've never had any trouble with them, except for that one little batch of stick-on wieghts that I melted down before I realized that some of them were zinc :veryconfu

[JIMinPHX]

Bob,

In an earlier post you stated that the above will not work with anything that will not evaporate.

Your last post states that you have used every type of gas chromatograph elution tube that your know to exist, from wax to Titanium.

INTERNET EXPERT-

Please explain to me in great, GREAT detail how you got wax and/or Titanium to evaporate in order for you to test with G.L.C..

I have never seen cast iron evaporate.........Titanium?


EGAD!


Perhaps you might want to check your facts. I put a .45 pistol down on the table next to me today......oddly, it did not evaporate. I was ready for that, but for some reason it did not happen.

Actually, it's Jim, not Bob.

The tubes were made out of everything from wax to titanium. The test specimens were not wax or titanium. The test specimens were volatile compounds like essential oils, extracts & distillates, some of which were quite corrosive, hence the use of corrosion resistant tubes like wax & titanium.

When you use a G.L.C. you select a type of tube that will give you the best resolution for the materials that you expect to be present in the test specimen. You then place the test specimen in the tube & start the machine running. The machine provides you with a strip chart graph that represents the different gasses that evolved out of the tube relative to time. In addition to the test specimen, you also run known solvents for strip comparison to give you a baseline against which to judge the test material. By comparing the two strips, you can tell what percentages of what compounds were present.

I have never know of lead or calcium to vaporize in a gas chromatograph. Again, I ask you to please check your facts.

Incidentally, some waxes can vaporize. You can ask anyone who has ever run a column still in a perto-chemical refinery if you don't believe me. [smilie=p:

[geargnasher]

Mr. Mastercast.com,

So, when you are through having a tantrum over being questioned by someone on an internet forum, perhaps you could ask your friend to enlighten you as to what type of chromatograph he actually used to perform his analysis. It would also be nice if you could get him to state exactly what percentage of calcium was found, how he can be certain that his sample was not contaminated, and exactly which WW manufacturers he called for information. Until you can provide the answers to these questions, you are simply paroting hear-say and inciting unfounded worry in casters who use WW as a primary alloy source (as evidenced by the post above mine). The last thing the shooting community needs is more second hand boogy-man stories.


Thank you, thank you. I'd like more facts myself, and am getting really burned out on Chicken Little stories. Next thing you know we'll have another primer shortage and EPA panic.

Gear

[sagacious]

Zincophobia still has a stranglehold grip on countless newbies, and newbies to come. Now calciphobia will take hold. The increasing switch to zinc and steel ww's-- and thereby the depletion of lead ww's-- is much more of a concern than the exact lead alloy used for ww manufacture. Almost any lead alloy is workable, given sufficient knowledge and experience. There are simple solutions to almost any alloy problem. I never turn down a source of lead, and have never had to scrap a batch as 'useless'. Just my take on it.

[zxcvbob]

Zincked lead probably casts good enough to make swaged bullet cores, but it'll be hard lead so it will take a pretty strong press.

[GP100man]

I flux with wax , stir with a stik , another flux with marvalux & wax stirr some more , flux 1 more time with sulphur then wax & it`s ingot time .

Stay up wind !!!!

If it does`nt pour in a 358156 or a 429421 it`ll pour into a lee 358 158 rnfp mold !!!

When the boogie man goes home I`m the 1 he looks under the bed for !!!!!!HA

[zxcvbob]

Doesn't sulfur remove antimony?

[montana_charlie]

Mr. Mastercast.com,

You may want to slow down before you put your foot irrevocably into your mouth.
He went off the deep end in a similar manner during the Hardness Tester thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82506 and never admitted his error/ignorance...whichever.

I doubt that he will this time, either.

CM

[mastercast.com]

Mr. Heinlein,

First, let me tell you that I am no expert with regard to gas chromatographs.

If someone delivered one to my house and placed it on the front porch, I would have absolutely no idea what it was.

When you talk about evaporation with regard to metals, that strains credibility. Please explain how metals can evaporate, like in great detail. My .45 ACp 1911 is still om my deslk, and shows no sign of evaporation.

How is it possible that your version of G.L.C. for lack of a better term, only works to 300 degrees Celsius...that is about 572 degrees farenheit... will not melt lead.

I am not experiencing a tantrum as you suggest, I am reporting what a Gentleman in the local crime lab told me about his experience with contaminated lead. He does not contiminate his samples...he has no history there as you seem to want to infer.

This information was generated here to prevent others from having the same problem.

If you chose not to believe it, that is OK with me. If and when you get calcium contamination from wheel weights........well, you were warned.

[LeadThrower]

Not to defend or attack anyone, but simply to put some honest science into this thread:

Analysis of metal alloys was most likely performed on an ICP-MS. That's an Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectromteter, in which the analyte is vaporized and ionized in an argon plasma (6,000 celsius at its coolest point! Think surface of sun temperatures). Once ionized, the analyte is separated based upon its mass. Since the atoms are charged, they'll respond to an electric field, with different masses responding differently and thus being separated. Before anyone jumps at the idea that nothing can contain a 6,000 degree plasma, remember that a plasma is a charged gas and so it can be contained by electric fields. (google "ICP torch" to see more info than you care to read on that subject).

A little more science: calcium is a VERY active metal. It will oxidize by being dropped into water. It will react vigorously with vinegar. In fractional percent levels in alloy it will likely not be detectable by these methods. The real moral of the story here is that fluxing with oils, waxes, or sawdust will not likely reduce the calcium oxide back to calcium metal. Flux well and stir, as has been suggested. Fear no calcium until your boolits demonstrate it's there. If in doubt, send a sample and a BIG check to your neighborhood analytical lab, for ICP-MS is an expensive instrument to purchase ($150,000 for a used model) and operate (Argon ain't cheap, and these instruments run through roughly one cubic foot every minute).

Cheers, happy casting, and send all of your suspected calcium-contaminated lead to me, please!
LeadThrower

PS: sample introduction would be either laser ablation (in which a laser atomizes tiny quantities of a solid sample) which is VERY unlikely, since it adds a huge chunk of change to an already expensive piece of hardware, or, more likely, dissolution in concentrated nitric acid and injection of the resulting solution. And no, you cannot inject acidic solutions into a gas chromatograph and expect to achieve more than the destruction of your column.

[mastercast.com]

He went off the deep end in a similar manner during the Hardness Tester thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82506 and never admitted his error/ignorance...whichever.

I doubt that he will this time, either.

CM

Explain that one to me. Ignorance or error?

[JIMinPHX]

When you talk about evaporation with regard to metals, that strains credibility. Please explain how metals can evaporate, like in great detail. My .45 ACp 1911 is still om my deslk, and shows no sign of evaporation.

That was the whole point of me asking you to check your facts in the first place. Metals like lead, calcium & the steel in your 1911 don't readily evaporate. That is why they can't be assayed, or even detected in a gas cromatagraph.

GAS cromatograph - it measures gasses.
I've never known of calcium gas to exist.
It's probably as hard to find as 1911 gas.

[jr81452]

Don't waist your breath Jim. Your talking to a man who calls himself "mastercast" who thinks Pb melts at 572deg F (notice I said Pb, not Pb alloys), apparently thinks thinks evaporation can only take place at room temp (for the impaired, the actual definition: To convert or change into a vapor (notice it does not specify at what temp)), and is generally deficient of scientific knowledge.

mastercast,
Please Note:
The melting point of Pb is 621.43* F. If you want to see Pb vaporize, heat it above 3200*F.
The melting point of Ca is 1548*F. If you want to see Ca vaporize, heat it above 2800*F.
And if you want to see your 45 vaporize, heat it above 4000*F.
Nearly anything will temporarily convert to a gas and evaporate if you get the temp. high enough. But all of that is irrelevant (just like most of your "information" in this post) because a G.L.S. will only achieve 300*C as previously stated.


I can appreciate that you thought you were passing on useful information. But when you are suggesting something as damaging to the community as you are, you should be prepared to back up your statements with verifiable facts, not hearsay. We should be striving for truth in all we post, not playing word games and posting unverified information that scares new guys away from our hobby.

That is the extent of my interest in this subject until you can present some concrete facts.

[montana_charlie]

He went off the deep end in a similar manner during the Hardness Tester thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82506 and never admitted his error/ignorance...whichever.

I doubt that he will this time, either.

CMExplain that one to me. Ignorance or error?
Simply stated, you began that argument with the assertion that the proper way to test lead hardness was by 'penetration' of a falling indenter...the method used in Rockwell testing of hard metals.

It was pointed out that the Brinell test uses 'area', not 'depth', to determine hardness, and it is a sphere pressed into the metal, not a point falling into it...but you maintained your original premise.

Either you were wrong in the beginning, and unwilling to admit your error, or you started out ignorant of the truth...and remained so.

CM

[JIMinPHX]

And if you want to see your 45 vaporize, heat it above 4000*F.


Or leave it sitting on the front seat of a parked car somewhere near Compton...;)

[geargnasher]

mastercast.com, I usually refrain from being masteroftheobvious.com, however for you I make this exception: JiminPHX goes by Jim. Robert A. Heinlein authored the quote Jim uses in his sig line. I do not understand how that fact escapes you. Since that name doesn't seem to ring a bell, perhaps you should google it.

Gear

[Ole]

I just came in here to admit that I don't have any friends that work in crime labs. :(

[Ohio Rusty]

The last batch I melted had three WW's on top of the clips and junk that didn't melt. I quickly scooped them out and set them aside. The next day I tried to cut a sliver off the edge with a razor knife. A lead WW will easily peel off a thim lead sliver with a sharp edge of a knife. These didn't hardly scratch. Not sure if they are zinc or not. I also found a big truck WW the other day. It was bright and shiney like it was new. I couldn't hardly scratch it with a knife blade. What it is made from I can't say.
What I have been doing is each WW that I want to melt, I check it with a knife edge. If it peels off a sliver like lead should, it goes in the melt pile. I know it's kind of slow, but I really don't know any other way to discern what is lead and what isn't .... they all look the same. The iron/steel ones are easy to identify as the clip is riveted to the body of the WW.

Ohio Rusty ><>

[zxcvbob]

You get to where you recognize the marks on them; the last batch I had was full of "MICRO" and "AL-MC" weights (lead.) So I could just throw those in the pot and melt/skim them without checking each one. Then I took the pot off the heat and let it just barely harden, and I dumped in all the ones I didn't know about (with the obvious steel and zinc weight removed.) They were wet, that's why I had to let it harden first. Heated slowly and stirred when they started to melt. As soon as it got to the liquidus, before the temperature could get any higher, I skimmed out any weights that wouldn't melt. Found a few that looked just like lead, had no marks on them, but they wouldn't melt (I assume they were zinc.) It was a lot faster than scratching each one with an awl or biting it with fence pliers.

BTW, I don't understand why there's so much hostility in this thread.

[canyon-ghost]

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the gear but, when it comes to the word "Plasma" I have an idea about that. The plasma arc cutter that I use at work (welding shop) works just like an oxy-acetylene torch except, that it uses an electric arc and compressed air. Hit the metal with enough concentrated voltage, move the molecules fast enough, and the result is heat, yellow to white hot heat.
Anyway, just a half composed theory there for your musing.

[462]

"BTW, I don't understand why there's so much hostility in this thread."

The way I read it, only one poster, after reality and facts were explained to him, became that way.

This thread is an excellent example of why false and unsubstantiated rumors would quickly die in "Cast Boolits, USA" http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=70435...there would always be more than one citizen with the knowledge and expericnce to refute them.

[Armorer]

I never turn down a source of lead, and have never had to scrap a batch as 'useless'. Just my take on it.

That is pretty much my take on it as well. Especially if it is free or ultra cheap. WW around here are starting to become a non issue anyway much to my dismay. I reckon I'll just keep smelting what I can get, and keep pouring boolits til it won't work anymore or I can't get any material to boolitize. :lovebooli

[13Echo]

I suspect the sample was analyzed with a mass spectrometer or by neutron activation. As stated GLC woldn't work.

Jerry Liles

[splattersmith]

Seems to me someone with knowledge and connections could talk to manufacturers and find out if Ca is now being used. I don't have the expertise or connections.:oops:

The real question should not be who used what to prove whose ego in what argument on which planet over what gaseous environment whose brain got bigger [smilie=p: but, rather, is Ca now a new phobia to drive us crazy or not?:holysheep

Maybe a manufacturer of wheel weights can offer some clarity. (And maybe why they are now doing it and not before?????? Makes one wonder, some more.)

[geargnasher]

Good point, but there has been a tremendous amount of total BS propagated here lately on various subjects, and I take it as a first rule (as do many others) to first stamp that out, then start dealing with the subject at hand. It isn't about ego, it's about keeping facts straight.

Gear

[sagacious]

Ca is increasingly being used to harden lead. Whether ww manufacturers use Ca is unknown to me. But this may be beside the point anyway.

The real question is not if Ca is currently being used in ww's-- it's if its inclusion might pose any kind of problematic nuisance to hobbyist-level lead pourers. I suspect it does not.

[Zbench]

While I feel sorry for guys that rely on wheel weights for usable alloy, it tells me that we are moving in the right direction selling reclaimed bullet cores to feed the melting pots of the masses. Lead is now over $1/lb. Not sure what is fueling the run up, but all metals to include tin are very expensive right now.

Also, as someone who does have a BS in Chemistry, (as in Bachelors of Science, not the kind that comes from the bull), a cornerstone of Gas Chromatography is the ability to get the sample to be analyzed not only dissolved in a carrier, but also to become volatilized in column. Metals certainly don't dissolve in solvents, nor do they become volatile at temperatures which would not melt the column they are trying to travel through. Further, there are myriad different types of columns...those that are polar and non polar and many others to either speed up or slow down the materials you want to analyze to remove them from the Signal to Noise ratio that they often become buried in. GC is definitely not used for such analysis. Atomic Absorption perhaps as it combusts the sample, and as others have stated, some types of Mass Spectroscopy.

Pete

[chris in va]

Despite the fact everyone picked this guy apart like a pack of wolves, I came away with the knowledge that newly manufactured lead wheelweights may have calcium infused with the metal and may cause casting issues.

End of story.

[geargnasher]

He got picked apart because he was spouting a bit of nonesense and then showed his backside to everybody, two things not appreciated by most of the membership.

Gear

[hammerhead357]

I still don't know if WWs have any calcium in them. But I have thought for sometime that there might be a lot of mixing of alloys by the battery and WW companies. So who knows? I don;t but I will still keep looking for WWs at every opertunity I get.....I do know that some of the posters here get very rude when taken to task about a statement. Just be prepaired to back up your statments with actual facts not hearsay....And don't get bent out of shape if someone knows more than you do about a subject.....Wes

[44fanatic]

Other than this thread I cannot find any information on calcium and WW's. Only other information I find concerning lead and calcium deals with batteries...and of course filling tractor tires with calcium (or a compound of).

As of now, I am not going to be concerned about it until I start getting bad fillout, then I will look into why. I will continue to keep my smelting sessions seperated so that if there are future problems, I may be able to narrow it down.

Best of luck.

[462]

He got picked apart because he was spouting a bit of nonesense and then showed his backside to everybody, two things not appreciated by most of the membership.

Gear

I was taught as a young boy that a man owns up to his mistakes, and that a well intentioned and heartfelt apology is a measure of a gentleman.

[JIMinPHX]

Derogatory portions of this thread aside, I think that a bunch of junk is being put into lead alloys these days.

A while back, when I was looking to buy up a large quantity of lead shot, I did a little research. I found out that much of the lead shot is coming out of India these days. The major manufacturers over there were rather evasive when specifying the material content of their shot. They would use terms like "5% antimony equivalent hardness".

That sort of reminded me of the days back in the '70s when the gas pumps stopped saying "Gasoline" on them & started saying "motor fuel".

A friend of mine used to be a chem engineer over at Exxon. She was telling me how motor fuel these days may be only around 20% gasoline. Apparently, they "blend" quite a bit depending on climate, material costs & other factors. I suspect that the purity of lead is being treated with a similar lack of respect these days.

I did not have an assay done, that's just my suspicion speaking.

The bottom line is that as long as it pours well, I'll keep using it.

[splattersmith]

Wonder when we might find out if ww now contain Ca. If so, what will be the next step. I do not have a major in chemistery. A minor yes (50 yrs ago), but that is useless.

I heard from a reliable source that the Taliban were including enriched plutonium in WW to eliminate the self sufficent shooters of the US. [smilie=f:

They don't worry about those that purchase ammo because the EPA is already doing the Taliban's job.

[dunkel]

Wow...lots to read through.

So whether or not there's calcium or steel or zinc in the ww, I don't think the target is going to care. But I might care if boolits come out as junk...so how am I going to know that a particular batch is junk?

[NWFLYJ]

Wow...lots to read through.

So whether or not there's calcium or steel or zinc in the ww, I don't think the target is going to care. But I might care if boolits come out as junk...so how am I going to know that a particular batch is junk?


I'm guessing if you have fillout issues in the lube grooves it MIGHT be zink.:lol:
Mark

[zxcvbob]

As it gets harder to find lead alloys with a pedigree, we do need to be more careful with dross storage and disposal: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/79142_32.html

(everything it says about arsenic also applies to antimony; stibine is actually more toxic than arsine, it just dissipates and decomposes faster)

[dunkel]

I'm guessing if you have fillout issues in the lube grooves it MIGHT be zink.:lol:
Mark

If I'm understanding you (and I'm really new, so that's not a given), if I'm getting misshapen castings, there is an issue with the alloy. Makes sense.

What about more subtle warning signs? Someone mentioned frosting. I can imagine what that might look like, but not why it is necessarily a problem.

[leadman]

Awhile back I spoke on the phone with a man that owns a recycling plant in Maricopa. Az. He buys all types of lead and smelts it down to large pigs. Anything that melts below 650' goes in the pigs.
He then sells these with his major customers being India and China. He stated that his customers did not care about the composition of the lead. He said that arsenic is being used more frequently to harden lead now versus antimony.

Battery lead is high in calcium and this is going in these pigs overseas and back to us as wheelweights and shot, and who knows what else.

I keep different types of lead alloys, antimony, and tin around to mix with my alloys to hopefully get a mix I can work with. Seems addition of tin results in the best casting mixes so far but is pricey. Rotometals superhard alloy has help cure a batch that is not as hard as needed.

My method is trial and error and experience and sometimes takes awhile to get it right.

[splattersmith]

....... Someone mentioned frosting. I can imagine what that might look like, but not why it is necessarily a problem.

Dunk, do a search on frosting. Almost everyone gets it sometime. Things get too hot and voila, frosted bullets. A lot of shooters state frosted bullets shoot great (assuming there are no other issues). I agree.