Load for .357 Freedom, 97.

[44man]

A friend just brought one over. We need the most accurate bullet and load for it. Cast and jacketed.

[44man]

This revolver is beautiful but is the most disappointing gun I ever shot. Tried 3 different bullets and loads. A few shots hit paper and some were no where to be found. There was no predicting where the bullets would go. Spray and pray! As carefully as I could shoot, there were no groups at all, from sandbags or offhand. Cast or jacketed.
We were both shooting 2" groups at 100 yd's and were tearing up an empty spray paint can at 100 yd's with my 45-70 BFR. But the Freedom would not keep all shots on a 200 meter ram at 100 yd's.
I don't know what the twist is but we were shooting 158 gr bullets, WW 231 and 296. No revolver I have ever shot would throw bullets off the paper like this one does. I can expect some large groups until the right load is worked, but not just to have shots disappear.
I have always said a Ruger or BFR will outshoot a Freedom. Is this just more proof? Is it a $1400 anchor?
We were shooting paper at 25 and 50 yd's.

[500bfrman]

Is it a $1400 anchor?


Wow, got it that cheap?

[lar45]

About 12 years ago when I was selling custom ammo, my best 357 loads were a Win 125 JHP and Bluedot in win cases with CCI mag primer. I don't remember the charge, but we were getting over 1500fps from a 4" GP-100 and the groups were tiny.
I don't know anything about the FA gun though.
Are you trying loads in the regular 357 pressure and velocity range? I would think you might have some troubles pushing it to 60K or better.

Did you measure the throat and bore? That may have some clues in it.
Sounds pretty weird though, like maybe the bore is choked down in the frame or something?

[44man]

I don't know. He took it home with him. We tried 4 and 5 gr's of 231 and I think he had 15 gr's of 296 with the XTP's. I think he had 140 gr XTP's. Either that or 158 gr with 14 gr's of powder. I glanced at his box but just don't remember. I will E mail him to find out. 4 gr's of 231 hit below the bull and 5 gr's sent the shots clear over the backstop with one or two on the top of the paper.
He found the gun on Gun Broker, new in the box.
The loads with 4 gr's of 231 used the Lee boolit and I loaded them for someone else. I just borrowed some.
The test target he got with the gun from a machine rest at 25 yd's was a tight group. What load does the factory use? Why would the gun be so picky?
Are Freedom guns wall hangers and status symbols?

[Scrounger]

Pilot error?

[44man]

No, shot from sandbags. I can shoot circles around it with a 335 and 347 gr boolit and 21.5 gr's of 296 out of my Vaquero and you know what kind of sights the Vaquero has. I have shot 1" groups at 75 yd's with that groove in the frame, off the side of my leg, Creedmore. The sights on the Freedom are great!
And you know the groups I get with the .44, .475 and 45-70 revolvers.
I had perfect sight pictures and perfect letoffs, at the very worst I should have had 3" groups, not off the paper with a lot of shots. Sometimes after 6 shots there would only be 2 holes in the target, sometimes 3.
He mailed me back and the XTP was 158 gr's with 15 gr's of 296. I told him it was a little hot but they did shoot the best.
This thing has me baffled and I don't know if it wants a heavier bullet or a lighter one. His .475 Freedom is the same way and only shoots a light bullet. 325 gr's shoots very good but anything heavier goes to hell in a handbasket. My other friends Freedom .454 is the same, picky, and I outshoot it every time he comes over. He has worked with it for years and my BFR's make him angry. He has a very expensive scope on it and I blow him away with a red dot.
As much as I love the Freedom for it's fit and finish, I don't think I will ever buy one after shooting hundreds of rounds out of them. I don't think they match the twist to the calibers. I know in the larger calibers that they don't match the frames and cylinder lengths to the calibers. Any decent boolit will stick out the front and the cylinder won't rotate. None of my loads will chamber in a Freedom .475. Have to use 480 brass!
There is no reason this gun won't shoot. It is going to take someone who has one to tell us what it needs. My resources are limited for the .357 because I no longer have one, not for at least 55 years anyway. My old 8-3/8" S&W would hold 1" at 100 yd's, no sweat. I used to hit those little frozen juice cans at 100 yd's from prone. The gun would shoot anything I fed it.

[bobthenailer]

a freind had a FA 357 mag sillewet model it shot extremly well , try heaver bullets, 180 to 200 grain cast or jacketed, he sometimes loaded his hotter than normal 357 data as the FA can handel higher pressure , the brass would take it but the primer pockets would enlarge after a few firings. he got the same velocity as a 10 inch t/c contender fired with normal 357 pressure ammo. ae 200 to 300 fps higher velocity. bob

[Bass Ackward]

Yep. Freedom Arm gives you a whole new experience with tighter chamber and dimensions all around.

Often what sounds to be a pipsqueek load that you are used to in something else will be chronoing well above max. And with tight polished chambers, you can't be playing the sticky brass routine now because you will likely never find it. Not uncommon to see a 4 1/2" have higher velocity than an 8 3/8 in other brands with 15% - 20% less powder. And since pressures go up accordingly, you need to size smaller and go harder with cast. Let velocity settle out to be where it is until the gun breaks in. Just shoot it and clean often.

In the mean time, clean the bore and see if it talks to you. Your patience will be rewarded.

[Jon K]

Yep, everything BA & Bob said, More powder bigger bullets. Check the Records, Freedom Revolvers are shooting the best in IHMSA & NRA. I have several friends that shoot a FA, and shoot 40's often. I have shot them and they will shoot on average about 4-6 inches @200m -silhoutte model(open sights creedmore position).

I haven't shot Silhoutte in Revolver Class in the last few years because my failing eyesight can't make it thru a match. But if I could, the FA would be the gun I'd choose to use. I have used the rest(S&W, Ruger, DW, Seville, and more) too hard to find one that will perform good and consistantly, and reliably.

Just my $.02 worth,
Jon

[44man]

I agree that they will shoot but it seems as if there is only a short range of bullets and loads. They have to be very accurate but are not versatile at all.
I will tell my friend to get some heavy boolits. It just seems to me that the Freedoms only like one load, vary a little and they won't shoot good.
I still say that they throw twist rates around like it doesn't matter. It is like they pick a certain load and build the gun around it only.

[Bass Ackward]

It just seems to me that the Freedoms only like one load, vary a little and they won't shoot good.

I still say that they throw twist rates around like it doesn't matter. It is like they pick a certain load and build the gun around it only.


44,

That is strange. My line bore chambered is a custom and not a Freedom. It shoots fairly well with any dang thing you want to put in it. Boringly as a matter of fact. By that I mean any well loaded ammunition where you as the reloader didn't screw something up, will shoot OK. It isn't finiky as to many things that we have to play with with other make guns. Now it does perform .... much better when you feed it what it wants. But it just takes less hastle.

Is it possible to calculate the twist rate to see if it is as it is projected to be?

[44man]

I have to mail him to see if he will measure the twist or if he can get some info. I should have done it when he was here, it would have told us something, but he had to rush off. I am interested to see how it compares to the other brands.
I did measure his .475 and it has a 1 in 18 rate. My BFR is 1 in 15 and is the reason it will shoot about any boolit.
Freedom knew the cylinder was too short for heavy boolits so they rifled it for lighter boolits. It shoots like gangbusters with a 325 gr. Doesn't seem that is what most guys want when they buy a .475! It shoots so-so with the 400 Lee. These have to have good neck tension and be crimped tight because if they creep out a little they tie up the gun.

[500bfrman]

According to Freedom Arms website it is a 1 in 14. I noticed that their 500 wyoming express is 1 in 20, and the 454 is a 1 in 24. Things that make you go hmmmm.

[44man]

How did you find it? I was searching the site and couldn't find anything.
Now the question is, what is the twist on a Ruger and S&W?

[500bfrman]

http://freedomarms.com/spec.pdf

It took me a while to find it too. It's down at the bottom under revolver specs. I have no idea on the Ruger or smith

[44man]

My friend called Freedom and they told him the .357 was the most picky caliber they make. They said more powder with the 158 gr and try the 180 gr.

[Jon K]

Which model and barrel length FA is it?

What does your friend have available to shoot? (Bullets & powder)

I may have load data to share.

Jon

[ktw]

Now the question is, what is the twist on a Ruger and S&W?

Ruger Blackhawk (357/9mm convertiible): 1:16
Ruger Blackhawk (45C/45ACP convertiible): 1:16
Ruger Super Redhawk (45C/454Casull): 1:24
Ruger Super Redhawk (480): 1:18
Ruger Redhawk (44Mag): 1:20
Ruger GP100 (357Mag): 1:18.75

Smith & Wesson's site doesn't appear to give rates of twist.

-ktw

[44man]

Jon, it's a 97 with 5-1/2" barrel. He will buy whatever he needs for powder and bullets. We can use any information.
Now I see why it want's heavy bullets with the faster twist. KTW, thanks for the information.

[Jon K]

OK here goes:

These loads are for FA 353 Silhoutte Model.
The Freedom Guns have tight chambers and tolrances DO NOT USE IN OTHER THAN FREEDOM ARMS.

* Use Winchester or IMI Brass -new or only fired in that gun, again due to tight chambers and pressure.
* Use taper crimp or profile crimp firmly, to keep bullet from moving out and locking up the cylinder.
* Cast bullets are seated out w/minimal clearance for cylinder to rotate.
* J-bullets are profile crimped

1. Speer 200 grain
Fed 205 primer
H110- 12.5 grains
1256 fps
2. RCBS 38/357 180/Sil or Saeco #399 180gr TCFP
Fed 205 primer
H110- 16 grains or H108- 15.5 grains

note: Load #1 may work good for you, but load #2 is being pushed for all it's worth out of 3 Silhoutte guns and your friends shorter barrel may need to back off the load a little *watch primer pockets for pressure, all will have flat primers.
Proceed with caution

Good Luck,
Jon

[44man]

Thanks, we will work up carefully. Sounds like kickass silhouette loads for sure.