Is the Lee FCD swaging your bullets?

[1bluehorse]

I have read this in several places, along with the Lee's sizing die undersizing the brass and swaging cast bullets. I'm sure the people posting this information ran their own tests to determine this information. The tests I did was to pull already loaded rounds from 357 mag. sized to 358 on a star sizer and loaded with lee dies and crimped with the FCD. Same for 45 colt sized to 452. Guess what, the 357mags still measured 358 and the 45's were still 452. Thought I would take this one step further, using Lee dies, loaded 12 rounds of 45 colt, full sized and crimped with FCD, 12 rounds "neck sized" and crimped with FCD with carbide insert (the offending item) removed, and 12 rounds full length resized and crimped with FCD insert removed. These were 255gr. RNFP lubed and sized on my Star, Brinnel, about 12, loaded in Winchester brass, WLPP, with 8 gr. w231, one of John Taffins favorite loads, over MY chrony lowest was 891.1 high was 930.1 avg, was 910.8 with no dicernable difference between ANY of the different loadings. Accuracy was about the same in all, and leading was very minimal. I should add that the cylinders on my Bisley BH have been bored to 452.5 and has been firelapped. The conclusions I came up with was, my shooting is crappy, and I ruined a perfectly good Lee FCD. I would like to hear about any other results. Maybe I'm not doing something right?????

[Guesser]

The FCD will not "swage" your bullets That said; the Carbide Crimp Die used for crimping straight wall handgun rounds will if the outside diameter of the loaded round is larger than the carbide inserts inside diameter. That is by design, if it did not it would not be what it is.
The FCD (Factory Crimp Die) is used on rifle cartridges and does not have the carbide sizing insert in it.

[GP100man]

If soft enuff alloy is used even brass can down size the boolit if a Lyman "M" die is`nt used !!

[Frozone]

you can tell if it is having an effect by the fact that it will 'drag' the Last 3/8" or so as the case comes out of the die.
As long as there is no resistance as the case comes out then the carbide sizer didn't touch the case.
In other words - you likely ruined your CFC for no reason at all.

[jcwit]

The Lee FCD will swage pistol rounds. I know this for a fact. After readjusting my seating/crimp "std." die I cured my problems and retired my FCD, accuracy also improved. For those that do not believe it, mike a bullet, seat it and crimp it with the FCD, pull the bullet and mike it again. Of course this doesn't hold true if you're using an undersized bullet.

The Lee Rifle FCD is an entirely different animal altogether, and NO it will not swage the bullets.

[Guesser]

The Lee die used on straight wall handgun cases is named by Lee as a Carbide Crimp Die. It is not named Factory Crimp Die. I have trouble following discussions when the terms are used interchangeably, it promotes an inaccurate description of the details of the discussion.
We hand loaders are sticklers for accuracy in every aspect of our chosen undertaking except the interchangeability of these two terms.
Please help us achieve a higher degree of understanding by using the correct names for tools and procedures.

[jcwit]

From the Lee online catalog


PISTOL
For Handgun Ammunition That Must Work!

Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die




Does that not say "Factory Crimp Die"? It does not say Carbide Crimp Die. What more can I say.

BTW this is the same terminology used in my hard copy of Lees catalog and also my Natchez Shooters Supply and my Midway USA catalog. I believe the manufacturer should know whereof he speaks, at least as to what he calls his product.

[35remington]

jcwit, didn't you just make most of Guesser's point for him? It does say Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die......not Factory Crimp Die. You just stated as much, in print, from their website.

The operative word in the definition is "carbide" to distinguish it from the regular Factory Crimp Die, which crimps the end of the case with a stab type crimp using a collet......no carbide sizing ring is present.

Correctly stated, the LCFCD is having an effect on your reloads if it drags noticeably going into the die....because it's sizing the round over the bullet on the way in.

On the way out, it's not sized as much as going in, because it's been sized down already, and the drag on the way out will be noticeably less. This should be pretty obvious.

[jcwit]

The last three words in the discription state Factory Crimp Die. You spose thats why its called FCD almost universally on most if not all forums? Ever see the Rifle Factory Crimp Die called a RFCD, or a SFCD? No? Well mayhap's it because we all call them both a FCD.

Lets pray we don't get into another discussion about magazines and clips when we all know what the other is talking about. Same thing, No?

This whold deal is just nit picking, is this not another case of which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[jcwit]

Correctly stated, the LCFCD is having an effect on your reloads if it drags noticeably going into the die....because it's sizing the round over the bullet on the way in.

Not in my case as I stated I retired the die, whatever you wish to call it. How bout the super squeezer die.

[Guesser]

Accuracy counts in every endeavor; or maybe NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks to all!!!!

[jcwit]

Accuracy isn't everything, winning is all that counts. Remember, 2nd place is just the first loser. It may still pay off but not like 1st place.

[Frozone]

[/i]The answer[/i] if you don't know how to use the die it won't do what you want.
If you learn to use it as designed then guess what? It works.

[RobS]

The FCD debate again..............There are two kinds i.e. the bottle neck/rifle factory crimp die and then the straight wall carbide factory crimp die. They are both under Lee’s site as factory crimp dies. The bottle neck FCD's are great and I have used them on my rifle rounds with no complaints. As for the straight wall carbide ring factory crimp die, well it can definitely swage down a boolit and then possibly not as well. Some individuals may size boolits at a diameter where their reloads are not effected by the carbide ring inside the die. More specifically, the loaded round's brass doesn't come into contact with the carbide ring with enough force to swage the boolit that is seated inside the brass.

As been stated if a person feels resistance as the brass starts into the carbide FCD then there is a possibility that the brass being resized will swage down the perfectly sized boolit sitting inside. It doesn't take rocket science to figure this out. Can this cause issues........maybe and maybe not depends on an individuals firearms barrel specs (groove diameter) amongst other things such as bullet obturation which is caused by the pressures generated by the rounds ignition that bumps the boolit’s base back up to a diameter that seals off gas blow-by. Another point to look at is alloy BHN or hardnss.

Also noted, but isn't looked at most of the time, is the possibility of alloy spring back or the lack there of as I will further explain in the following example. Anyone who slugs a barrel should understand this very well. It is recommended that pure lead be used to slug a barrel because the alloy does not spring back once it leaves the bore so an accurate reading can be taken.

So go to the other side of this and there is the potential to have an alloy or boolit that can spring back due to a higher BHN, a harder boolit. This is taken into consideration by a person who makes boolit sizing dies. Buckshot, a forum member here who happens to make sizing dies, will ask a person what alloy they are planning on sizing so he can design the die to size boolits at the customer’s designated diameter. Harder alloys (lino, water quenched or heat treated WWs ) spring back and softer alloys (WW's, most range scrap, pure lead etc) not so much to not at all.

Same concept happens with the carbide factory crimp die. A person with an air cooled WW boolit at .452" will see much different results with a greater chance of swage down from the carbide ring if there is resistance upon entering the die vs a water quenched .452 WW boolit due to the capability of the harder alloy's ability to spring back.

And so that is why there are those who say the dies work and others who say they most certainly do not.

[jcwit]

HHHHMMmmmmm, I will admit that explaines it. Thanks!

[1bluehorse]

WOW!!! That wasn't where I was hoping this would go.. I guess someone didn't read everything I wrote. Long post, granted, but wasn't the part about pulling and mikeing the two different calibers clear enough? Went in .358 and .452 and came out the same and both were crimped with the (excuse me) Lee CARBIDE factory crimp die. No difference that I could tell after removing carbide insert in performance. I was hoping for someone else to explain their results.

However I realize some people use .454 dia bullets in their 45 colt and could see where if the Lee CARBIDE CRIMP DIE carbide insert is .452 that could be a problem.

Whereas the Lyman "M" die is a great design all it does is bell the case mouth. Albeit better than the others with it's step design.

As far as "a higher degree of understanding", is that why on this forum they're called "boolits?" not bullets. Thought I may be able to import some information that would be of interest to some, evidently not. Thanks anyway..

[1bluehorse]

My apoligies RobS, I was typing while you were posting. Appreciate your insight.

[RobS]

Not a problem 1bluehorse and by the way welcome to the forum :)

[geargnasher]

Gotta love it!

Something that nobody mentioned is that the pistol version of Lee's FCD (the ones that happen to have that stupid, ruinous *** carbide post-sizing ring in the bottom) is that they were never designed to handle the typical oversized boolits we casters use. That post-sizing ring works great with jacketed bullets, ensuring you get all the bellmouth out and that any wrinkles/bulges etc. are thoroughly ironed out. The functions as designed with 9mm, .357", .401",.409",.429", and .451" projectiles to make ammunition that will feed and chamber with absolute reliability when reliability is of the essence. Not so much with oversized cast boolits. You can, however, have your cake and eat it, too, in one die set, if you just use the seater die and the taper-crimp built into it, for automatics don't actually crimp the boolits, just use it to iron out the bellmouth. The rest of the die body has plenty of room to not even touch the case walls or swage boolits.

That's knowing, and as G.I. Joe says, knowing is half the battle! :kidding:

I gotta get some sleep......

gear

[Bret4207]

Uhhh, don't know if this is germane to the subject at hand, but that swaging down problem can happen with dies other than Lees FCD. It's just something to check for if you have problems, not a certainty that it is happening.

FYI- I saw a guys pics of a FCD that swaged his Barnes soild copper bullets! Yes, there was some operator error there.

[ph4570]

Perhaps a slight twist to the thread but certainly related. I load 9mm for Sig P226 wit a fat chamber and barrel. It likes .359-.360 boolits. I find that the Dillon 9mm boolit seat die swages it down with the carbide insert. I am currently using the 10mm Dillon boolit seat die -- not an optimum solution. The Dillon 38/357 die is no help in this regard. For final bell removal I use an ancient non-carbide taper crimp die.


Anyone else have this issue?

I am pondering getting a non-carbide seating die and honing it out if required.

[Guesser]

I load .358 boolits for my 9MM cylinder in my RNMBH. I finagle a little bit, swapping dies to avoid compression of the case and bullet when crimping. Very similar to the way ph4570 does with his. Its fun and a lot more accurate than .356 9MM bullets are.

[mooman76]

When I got my first factory crimp die it worked so easy I thought it did nothing so I adjusted it down more(yes it is adjustable) and it crimped(swagged) down a jacketed bullet to the point it was loose inside the brass.