100 yd. Targets

[45 2.1]

Same story on these, shot by board member at 100 yds with 338 Win Mag with custom designed boolit at 2,050 and 2,230 fps.

[Bass Ackward]

So the 338 has been tamed. And at velocities that can make a guy proud. I am glad someone did it. Now the rest can take heart.

[JDL]

Dang, ya'll are killing me!!!:-D -JDL

[Topper]

Those are some mighty nice groups for a cast boolit;-)

[35remington]

Those are good groups for ANY bullet.

Any loading particulars/procedures that he followed that were helpful with the .338?

[45 2.1]

Those are good groups for ANY bullet.

Any loading particulars/procedures that he followed that were helpful with the .338?

Each persons methodology is different. When I help someone, I have them tell me exactly what they are doing and I fill in the blanks in their knowledge. It is an interactive thing as everybody is different. So it isn't book material. The boolit has to fit correctly or this doesn't happen. The 338 boolits were designed and fitted for his barrel, but do shoot like that in his friends barrel also. So it is a very good design.

[StarMetal]

Before you fellows get too blowed away at those groups read what Rick Jamision has to say about three shot group (he not the only knowledgeable persont that says the following either):

Rick Jamison, the author of the Precision Reloading column in Shooting Times magazine approaches accuracy testing in a very scientific manner. He uses a machine rest for testing and fires 10-shot groups. Here are his own words on the subject from one of his articles:

There are stories of a single bullet that for no explained reason flies out of what might have been a tight cluster. This often occurs with a three-shot string and many times with a five-shot string. If you're lucky enough to fire a group without a flier, you can end up with a very tight group. However, usually what happens if another five or seven shots are fired to complete a 10-shot string, other bullets fill in the space between the main group and the flier to make a reasonably rounded group. Ten shots are a more reliable indicator when it comes to predicting what a load is likely to do in the future.

The problem with 10-shot groups is that when you report them, everyone thinks you aren't shooting very well or that the ammunition is not good because the group sizes are so much larger than three- or five-shot groups. Also, when we're firing three- or five-shot groups with a flier, it is only natural to assume that it was caused by a flinch or "pulling" the shot. Therefore, since the flier was our own fault, the tendency is to eliminate it from any reporting of group size.

This is one of the advantages of using a machine rest... The machine rest reduces the human element.
After using this machine rest for several years, I have determined that a 1.5-inch 10-shot group at 100 yards... is a good one.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Joe-
I've read Rick Jamisons articles for years. Most everything he has posted is jacketed data. What little he has posted about cast boolits reflects what little knowledge he has about them.

[StarMetal]

Bob,

Groups are groups, whether jacketed or cast. Yes they are harder to get with cast for the average person.

I told you recently I was working with my SKS again. Well yesterday when I was shooting I my first three shots were less then 1/2 inch. I could have posted that and bragged, but I didn't, because I knew that with 5 or 10 shots it would open up, and it did. Shucks, I've shot alot of three shot groups that would be getting ooo's and aaaaah's from the members here.

Let's take my Steyr M95 carbine in 8x56R. With a groove diameter of .331 that's mighty close to the .338, so makes a good comparison to the .338 group you posted here for whoever the shooter was. Now that carbine will consistantly shoot a 7/8 inch group at 100 yards with cast and that's five shots, not three. The rifle wears a peep sight, what type of sights was that target you posted shot with?

Joe

[45 2.1]

It was shot with a scope as this guy is a hunter. 10 shot groups don't interest most shooters. All the cast benchrest records are 5 shot groups. The amount of shots to determine accuracy arguements have been going on longer than any of us have been around. Even 50 shot groups were in there at one time. Why don't we just put a new rifle in a machine rest and shoot until the barrel is worn out? Now that would determine how accurate that rifle was. Worn out arguements! It becomes a matter of how good a person can dope the wind instead of what the rifle can do on demand in the window of time relegated for the opportunity to shoot at something. After 5 shots, in most timed matches, it depends on the shooters knowledge of where the barrel will walk its shots to if more than 5 are required. Can you tell us where your shoots will group in order on the target for a 10 shot group? Funny that you never posted 10 shot groups either.

[StarMetal]

Bob,


I did post those 8x56R targets, ask Oldfeller. At the time he had just got a pretty worn out one which he was working on and he made a scope mount for it mounting a scope. We were laughing about how well mine shot with the peeps compared to his scoped one. His bore was really worn though. In fact just recently I told him I drug the rifle out of the safe, as I hadn't shot it for ages and wanted to see if perhaps I knocked the sights off. Three shots at 100 yards (Ididn't want to shoot more because they were my special alloy and loads for deer) and it was on target, in fact those went about 7/8 inch and oldfeller was laughing.

Yeah I do know where that one groups, about 1 o'clock position on the edge of the bull.

Guess you missed the target post, I'll see if I still have the pic in the pc or not.

Yes those three shots are good enough for hunting. If it shoots like that consistantly, which it appears it has from the targets, then that's great for hunting.

I didn't mean to run down the guy or the gun or group, just that three shots groups are alot easier to shoot then five or ten. For sake of agruing he could have shot a one shot group and gotten .338 and said "beat that".

Joe

[mag_01]

Starmeatal you seem to interject negativity------I have found most people shoot 3 shot groups due to the fact that following shots tend to have spooks or other things happening that result from the shooter himself more than the weapon or ammo----just my experience after firing a few shots to dirty bore ---the next shot is a pretty good indicator of where the gun will shoot rifle or pistol---just my 2 cents and my experience (71) yrs. of it----enjoy the board with all the various remarks some good some bad and some very helpfull----Thanks again 4fingermick for your quick response and excellent information------Mag_01

[felix]

Joe, three shot groups is plenty of proof for the guns we shoot. Most especially ten 3 shot groups, or enough groups to represent a typical outing with that gun. The important thing is to visualize how successive groups open, and when in sequence they start to open. Opening because of lube buildup? Operator getting tired either physically or mentally? Or, is the barrel not holding its dimensions? Very few folks and guns as a system can shoot a 5 shot group and maintain a consistent composure throughout a group. If I hold up a card with three numbers on it, can you repeat the numbers in sequence after seeing the card for a fraction of a second? Yes, you can because that is the average for all folks tested. Now try for five numbers. Only one percent of the folks can handle that. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Starmeatal you seem to interject negativity------I have found most people shoot 3 shot groups due to the fact that following shots tend to have spooks or other things happening that result from the shooter himself more than the weapon or ammo----just my experience after firing a few shots to dirty bore ---the next shot is a pretty good indicator of where the gun will shoot rifle or pistol---just my 2 cents and my experience (71) yrs. of it----enjoy the board with all the various remarks some good some bad and some very helpfull----Thanks again 4fingermick for your quick response and excellent information------Mag_01

I think of it as I make people think. Sorry if that pisses you off.

Joe


Felix,

that true what you say. What I was trying to say is just about 100 percent of everyone on this forum probably has a rifle and load that will shoot three shot groups like that. It seems the majority of the members also do not have their cast rifles scoped.

Have that gentleman shoot a five or ten shot group and post it.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Have that gentleman shoot a five or ten shot group and post it.Joe

Joe-
You ain't going to like it as its 1/2" for 8 shots. I posted the bigger groups for ya'll at the start. He has smaller yet.

[StarMetal]

Bob,

You're wrong, I do like it. Now to me, that's very impressive. Being a 338 with a large volume case even makes it more impressive...add that crummy belt headspacing method to it too. Now we're talkin.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Group count applicability has more to do with how a rifle gets used, in my view. If a rifle's primary use is on varmints--where repetitious firing with short time-frames between shots is indicated--then a 10-shot group might be a better barometer of the rifle's and its load's capabilities in that venue. Conversely, when deer hunting or sniping is the rifle's primary use, sequential cold-shot targeting of the rifle's first shot from a cold/clean barrel over several days is the ideal. The 3-shot groups shown here are a pretty reliable compromise for someone lacking every-day access to a shooting facility, esp. if that "cold shot" is included in that triad.

Those groups from just about any cast boolit or caliber would please me right to the ground, and since they were produced from the 338 Win Mag--kudos to all involved.

[felix]

Joe, that guy obviously is a real cool shooter. Chances are very, very good he'd be our BR representative should he have an inclination towards that demanding sport! ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

You have to give Bob some credit to teaching him the finer details of getting cast to shoot too. Yes the guy is a cool shooter as he was the one squeezing the trigger, but Bob showed him some cast loading tricks...right Bob?

Joe

[StarMetal]

That's what I was saying Al, any of those belted magnums are alittle harder to get accuracy from because of the belt headspacing in my opinion. When I had my 7mm mag I headspaced off the shoulder. I even had some brass that had the belts removed....and the rifle did shoot too, both jacketed and lead. It was Deluxe Sako.

Joe

[357maximum]

A 20 day group...Is a hunters group

1 shot per day for 20 days, will tell a hunter more than 1000- 5shot groups. A three shot group is all that is neccessary in the real world of hunting. Anything beyond that you are testing the shooter, and for barrel for internal stresses. From the perspective of a meat gatherer I am more concerned with the 1st shot, but I like to see groups too. I will confess to shooting 5 and ten shot groups often, but it means little to a meatgetter when you think about it in the real world hunting settings.

A competetive shooter needs to know what his gun will do on long shot strings, for "THAT" day and for "THAT" day he will know.

I need to know what the first shot will do, and nothing more,,hence the 20 day group..a better means...IMHO

Michael

[Edward429451]

Not taking sides but just chewing on the differing views...

3 shot groups are indicitive of the ammos performance. Why wouldn't 10 shot groups be even more indicitive? A larger sampling for the average etc.. I use to shoot 3 shot groups but now shoot 10 shot groups. I usually stop and see where I'm at at 3 shots. I've ruined (?) some perfectly good cloverleafs by continuing to shoot at them. I could say I'm better than I am by stopping at 3 shots, so why do I continue to shoot?

Maybe it was the Chrony or maybe it was Cooper. Is a shooter any good or not? Anyone can have a good day / lucky group but it's what the shooter can do on demand, consistently, that counts. That made sense to me.

Why don't we Chrony with only 3 rounds? It gives you an average, indicates what you can expect. Oh, because the 4th or 7th shot may be high/low and totally skew the results as compared to a 3 shot avg. So we chrony 10 which gives a more realistic assessment of the rounds performance.

So why not the life of the barrel or a 50 shot group? I agree, that's over the top. I think 50 SG's is redundant to the ammo performance but may well be more of an indicator of the shooter's skill (after the load is proven).

You guys in the 3 SG crowd...do you throw out the fouling shot? Why?

Why not shoot 3 SG's of only fouling shots on different days, first shot from a cold clean barrel? That would be realistic, would it not? Unless of course you store your gun fouled. ;>)

For awhile there, I was actually saving my worst targets of the day. To reference the least I could expect. I don't do that anymore, too many bad targets!

10 3 SG's would be interesting though. I like that line of logic.

[45 2.1]

Felix,

You have to give Bob some credit to teaching him the finer details of getting cast to shoot too. Yes the guy is a cool shooter as he was the one squeezing the trigger, but Bob showed him some cast loading tricks...right Bob?

Joe

He was "stuck" in the 3/4" to 1 1/4" range befrore we started talking and had good questions to ask. I simply filled in the parts he needed to know and overviewed the mold parameters. He did some nice work on minor variations also.

[StarMetal]

See....I got some fellows thinking.

357max,

True what you say....except for such hunting as say praire dogs..Gotcha huh??? or any other multiple rapid game shooting.

Joe

[357maximum]

See....I got some fellows thinking.

357max,

True what you say....except for such hunting as say praire dogs..Gotcha huh??? or any other multiple rapid game shooting.

Joe


Yep you got me alright, the next time I see some prarie dogs in Michigan I will invite you out.

Seriously though, the only rapid fire I do is with a shotgun. Geese,ducks, and little clay critters. I see your point, but is invalid for me, as I will not go to the expenses of travel to shoot something I ain't gonna eat. Now if I lived where them little targets lived, I would treat my .223's differently as you say. Prairie dog "HUNTING" will not be something on my "TO DO" list, in fact most my guns are single shots...except the coyote calling weaponry. It is not ..I DO NOT SEE YOUR POINT it is simply invalid for ME 99.9% of the time.

Michael

[StarMetal]

Michael,

One of my very good friends in OK goes praire dog shooting, in another state even though OK has them too, and he brings a few rifles along so he can use one when the other one's barrel gets too hot from shooting.

I'm in TN and we don't have them either. I did live in a few states out west and I enjoyed going immensely. One of my favorite rifles for that was my scoped AR15. I've used various rifles and that Sako 7mm Mag that I talked about in the other post, well I used that with cast bullets shooting praire dogs. Once while doing that the game warden came by. He was shocked that a rifle could shoot cast good enough to hit a praire dog and at distance too. He knew that it did because I had a pile of praire dogs which he hollered at me about. He pointed out that they sometimes carry the flea that carries the bubonic plague and said enjoy shooting them, but don't pick them up, don't even touch them. By the way the bullet for that 7mag was a 150 gr Lyman loverin over the old Hodgdon H870 powder with Javelina lube....it shot good enough to shoot praire dogs at distance.

Joe

[robertbank]

Just had to do it. The Devil made me. That is 15 yards from a rest. 5.3 Gr Win 231, Mixed Brass, H&G Design 200 gr LSWC, Win LPP, Para SSP Fixed Sights. Eight rounds.

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

Robert,

shame shame shame. Hey Guys!! Robert is the official one ragged hole man now. Whew [smilie=s: I'm glad I don't have that title any more. thanks Bob...[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

Joe

[Edward429451]

<A 20 day group...Is a hunters group

1 shot per day for 20 days, will tell a hunter more than 1000- 5shot groups.>

Now that makes good sense! OK, Sept 2007 postal match: 20 different day group, all shot first shot o' the day from a cold clean barrel!

(gives people lots o time for being rained out, family emergency's etc.)

[Char-Gar]

In the days of Yore, when I started shooting, this was the standard drill for groups.

10 Shot groups were used to determine the accuracy potential of the rifle and load.

5 shot groups were used for sighting in to give a good center point in the group for shifting sights

3 shot groups were used for rifles with featherweight barrels or levergun with bands and magazine tubes tied to the barrel.

A "Sniper Zero" was a rifle sighted in by firing 10 shot groups, with each shot from a clean cold barrel.

I guess anybody can shoot one, two, three, five, ten or whatever shot groups... Whatever floats their boat. Enjoy yourselves and have a good time.

But when folks start bragging saying "Lookee here what my rifle will do"..that is when I want to see 10 shot groups that are repeatble on demand. Not much else counts for bragging rights!!

[45 2.1]

I want to see 10 shot groups that are repeatble on demand. Not much else counts for bragging rights!!

Everybody can make a repeatable 10 shot group keeping in mind that most you see will be larger. What you really want to see is "small" 10 shot groups. I don't think you'll see too many really small ones. So, can anybody else do it?

[357maximum]

Joe

7mag.V.S. prarie dog,,,,,unfair,,,unfair,,,LOL, sounds fun as hell, did you consider it a hit when the dissapeared into thin air. You should see what a 20 gauge slug will do to puddy cats...or a 100 grain hollowpoint out of a .280 AI on gophers, same effects all around. ...POOOF.. I could see me getting right into that p dog gunning if I were closer. but I'm no longer a traveller, I am happy right here amongst the trees. I have been many places this side of the rockies and even tried living/swimming in the Florida air of all places,made it five months, lost 40 pounds from sweating. I always am happy to be back home=where I am the top of the foodchain, and not many little critters with teeth or venom wanna chew on my hide....chiggers,jiggers,rattlesnakes,fleas and other critters just don't do it for me..I'll take swan sized skeeters, 120 to 200 pound whitetails, and squirrels/rabbits/pheasants/ducks/geese/excellent fishing anyday..

michael

[felix]

Bob the banker, that whole picture as you presented it should be sent to all of the gun rags (one at a time). 300 bucks is the appropriate payback for your thoughtfullness when published. Don't ask me how I know! ... felix

[StarMetal]

Michael,

Well no, it didn't blow them up as they weren't moving as fast as jacketed and they were a hard alloy. Now I have taken that same rifle out with either 110 or 120 jacketed and it did blow them up pretty good, BUT to tell you the truth my AR15 with 1 in 7 twist disentegrated them alot worse. It didn't matter what the bullet was in that AR either, FMJ or soft point. The AR was the most fun, then the 7mag with cast, and the 7 mag jacketed last. Too much blast and recoil for just praire dog hunting. I mainly used it to stay in practice with it for big game season.

My best friend and went out one time with 22 rimfires, his a magnum, mine a 22 LR. I had my Remington 541-S custom sporter and he a run of the mill old Savage that he had from high school days. Both scoped. I told him to expect getting beat by my 22. He laughed. He had no idea what a 541-S was or how they shoot. He did at the end of the day. Yeah when he connected the magnum tore them up ALOT more.

Joe

[robertbank]

Ah come on now Joe such a title is not given up so easily.:mrgreen: .

Felix, I am on it. I'll send you down a fiver if the photo comes through.

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

No P-dogs locally, but the same advice regarding bubonic plague is given for the ground squirrels that Buckshot and I strafe from time to time.

The 223 or 22-250 with soft point/hollow point j-words will "spread out" most varmints pretty comprehensively. The 243 with cast isn't nearly as destructive, even at 1700 FPS. Same story with the 25-20 using both the Speer flatpoints and castings.

I had the chance during my career assignments to do a lot of sequential cold-shot group shooting, both with my issued rifles and with those of other shooters I instructed. One observation I made during that time was that heavier-contoured barrels--assuming good action bedding--tended to print their cold-shot groups closer to that rifle's hot/dirty shot groups than lighter-contoured barrels did.

We're not talking about huge variance here--in the Ruger and Remington bolters that made up the sample population I speak of, the cold to hot variance seldom exceeded more than 1" at 100 yards. Sample size over 6-7 years was about 70 rifles, mostly 308's shooting Federal Match 168 MK's....with a few 30-06's thrown in for variety, and a few 223's. Still, the heavy tubes showed less variance--although after having dragged one over hill and dale for 8 years or so, that is about the ONLY advantage they possess, esp. viewed in light of the average police sniper shooting distance being c. 75 meters.