need help on some lube please!

[Dillon]

I was hoping that some people on here might be able to help me figure out the best lube for the application that I am needing my bullets for.
I am making loads for USPSA and when working up loads I realize that the lube that I am using is very smokey. Given I am using bullseye powder but its just crazy im not wanting to look like im shooting black powder out there.

The lube I am using is javelina from magma but its smokey and very tacky to the touch and it just gets everywhere! but I just ran out if that.
I will be running it through a star that has a homemade clothes iron heat control but not a air pressure gauge.
Im looking for a lube that will reduce the amount of smoke as much as possible while still doing its job and also running well through a star.

Thanks in advance,
Dillon

[Recluse]

I use Bullseye in my .45 ACP 200SWC loads. The lube I use is a custom concoction of beeswax, LLA, JPW and a dash of stearate.

You can pour it into your Star's lube resevoir, or mold it into sticks either one. Best lube I've ever used for my .45 loads and virtually no smoke other than from the Bullseye. No leading, supreme and consistent accuracy and a clean bore afterwards.

:coffee:

[geargnasher]

Smokey loads can have many causes. Bullseye has always been a really dirty powder for me and I don't use it anymore, but I won't say that it's inherent to the powder, just that that has been my experience with it in the few calibers I've tried with it. Titegroup is much cleaner and more consistent for me in low-pressure, straight-walled cases and it meters better than the Alliant pistol powders.

I use Titegroup and Felix lube for my target .45 loads with 230 grain cast with little smoke, and Universal or Longshot for the hotter stuff, also with little smoke. I've found it's important to run the pressures at least to the point where the given powder gets completely burned and select powder based on boolit weight and desired velocity.

White Label BAC is a good lube for your application if you want to buy it, but I make Felix lube myself and it is pretty clean shooting.

Gear

[870TC]

Never heard of javelina from Magma?, "The lube I am using is javelina from magma", far as I know those are 2 different companies and 2 different lubes. Try White Label Lube- Commercial, or Carnuba Red, both are low smoke and just slightly tacky.

[Dillon]

I wouldn't normally use bullseye for it either but I found 8#s of it for 100 dollars including tax so there was no way that I could pass it up. So I better stick with it.
Recluse how hard is the lube your talking about and do you have the exact ratio that you use? is it on the lube recipies sticky?
870tc The javelina that I am using came with my star and carnuba red was the one that I was thinking about going with.

[870TC]

Okay, the javalina is probably 50/.50 alox beeswax and would be real sticky and smokey. Magma sells there own lube which is rock hard, often referred to as "crayon lube" on this forum. You will like the C.Red or the Commercial, from White Label.

[Dale53]

I shoot mostly target loads in .45 ACP, .32, .38, .44 Special, and .45 Colt. However, I also shoot my share of "barn burners". I have been using Lars' White Label Carnauba Red for some time (just got another order in this past week). It DOES require heat to apply, but I prefer it's higher melting temperature (my ammo may ride around in my van for a week or two during extremely hot weather).

It works extremely well in target loads as well as high velocity loads in my magnum revolvers.

If you require a "no heat" lube, Lars can fix you up with that also. Give him or Leah a call. I have received quick responses by Email, also. Good people to do business with.

Dale53

[David2011]

Dale53,

Any experience with your lube in .40 S&W? I'm ready to try anything. I find that powders and lubes that don't smoke much in my .45s smoke a lot in the .40. My MV in the .40 is always 940 fps or better so it's not that I'm shooting particularly light loads in the .40. OTOH, I usually shoot real light loads in the .45 for steel plate.and it seems to smoke much less.

David

[cajun shooter]

Try BAC and Clays powder and you will have to have a microscope to see smoke. The lube that Magma sends out with the Star machine is called javalina and is the old NRA 50/50 Beeswax and Alox mix which has been a smokey lube since day 1. Later David PS the BAC is a mix with the carnuba Red

[Doby45]

I made some test loads in my 40 with BAC, C-Red and a mix of the two and I got very little smoke using Clays.

[runfiverun]

magma is magma engineering makers of the star sizers.
the javelina lube is 50-50 b-wax and alox.
fast hot powder and alox = smoke especially with higher humidity.
just try the carnuba red from lars [ler 45's stuff below] it goes through the star like a champ.
and it'll save you money.

[Dale53]

David2011;
I am not a user of the caliber .40 in a handgun. Have NO experience in that area.

Cast bullets always smoke a bit but choice of powder and lube DOES make a difference. My experience with the .45 ACP has shown that Clay's is a VERY clean burning powder. I just bought an 8 lb jug of Titegroup but have yet to use it. I have used a lot of Bullseye and Unique and both are smokey. 231 is less smokey than Bullseye and Unique.

The suggestion to pick a powder burning rate that has you working towards the upper end (of that particular powder) to reduce smoke is probably a good general rule. Always keeping in mind that you don't go over recommendations.

Lars Carnauba Red, in my .45 ACP's, smokes considerably less than NRA 50/50 Beeswax/Alox 2138F.

Of course, my main thrust is accuracy. But, we cannot overlook expense.

EXPENSE:
I had decided to reduce my powder stash by shooting up ALL partial cans of powder I have collected over the years. I was making really good headway until I dropped in my local gun shop. They had just bought out an estate and had a floor full of partial cans of powder. Fortunately, they were readily identifiable as to how they were labeled. I ended up with 14 lbs of pistol powder for $25.00. Are they exactly what I would have picked. Not necessarily, but I can make SOME allowances when it is $2.00 per lb[smilie=1:.

I had JUST taken delivery of an 8lb caddy of Titegroup. I really wanted to try Titegroup but it looks like it'll be a couple of years before I get to it. I first have to use up all of those partial caddy's of PB, 7625, Bluedot, and a bit of Bullseye. It seems like, this is where I came in...

So, circumstances can change a feller's attitude.

Good luck in your quest. When you find an answer for the .40, please share it with us.

Dale53

[David2011]

I've run about 20 pounds of Titegroup (at 4.7 grs/rd) through my STI .40 since I bought it almost 4 years ago. It will smoke with the wrong lube. At the Area 4 championship I got someone to video me in a stage that had a lot of confined areas. It looked like I was mosquito fogging. I really like the lube I've been using for its application and handling properties. It stays where it's put and doesn't migrate after lubing but it smokes too much for IPSC. I generally lube 20-22 lbs of boolits at a time so using a soft lube and stacking them neatly isn't an option.

Clays is spooky in .40 S&W. Max load with a 180 gr. j-word is 3.5 grains. Hodgdon says that's good for 847 fps. You have to make 917 fps for IPSC Major. Cast boolits develop the speed easier so it can be done without excessive primer flattening. I have done it but would prefer not to publish the load data. The STI Edge is plenty strong but still functionally a 1911 so I don't want to overpressure. I shoot Clays in my .45ACP steel plate gun but at low pressures. It doesn't smoke a lot, even with the same lube that smokes a lot in the .40. The .40 smoked a lot with Clays. It puts out a lot of unburned particles but little smoke. (3.7- 3.8 grains TG and a 200 SWC. Almost no recoil but the gun has to be set up for the light loads.)

This is from Jeff Maass:

In particular, you are urged to avoid any load using Hodgdon CLAYS for IPSC-velocity .40S&W loads. Although many of the ‘Super Squad’ shooters are using Clays, Hodgdon’s loading data shows a maximum IPSC power factor of 153 for CLAYS. Although it is possible to load to a power factor of 175 using CLAYS, especially in guns that allow a cartridge overall length of 1.200” and greater, there are FAR SAFER options available with the medium- and slower burning powders. For the same reasons, Accurate Arms #2, while used by some IPSC shooters, is not a recommended choice.

Sorry, I may have drifted from the main subject but it's hard to separate lube from powder at times.

The temporary solution is to shoot Bayou Bullets. That will get me thorough the Gator Classic with very little smoke. I'll start experimenting with lubes after that.

David

[Dale53]

>>>Clays is spooky in .40 S&W.<<<

David2011;
I certainly agree with you about that. Tonight I was looking at the Hodgdon Web site (Data Center) at the .40 S&W and noticed that Clay's was velocity limited by pressure in this caliber. I would never pick Clays for anything except light target loads in .40 caliber.

It might be very instructive to call Hodgdon on the phone and talk to one of their techs and follow his/her recommendations. Those people also shoot and have access to laboratory instruments and can give you the REAL dope on the problem and make some qualified suggestions.

I have found them very helpful and interested.

Dale53

[geargnasher]

Here's the dope on the .40.

1). The .40 S&W is a MAGNUM LEVEL cartridge, and should be treated as such. That means SLOW powders, harder boolits, and high-pressure lube.

2). I never use anything slower than Universal, and that only for 800 fps plinkers with reduced power recoil spring. To make power with small caliber boolits, it takes high pressure. Think about the .357 Magnum when loading for the .40, if you want speed you have to use heavy charges of slow powder, that means Longshot, Blue Dot, True Blue, HS6, etc. 2400 would be great but it's too bulky. Longshot is just right for about everything, and the load density with near-max loads is perfect. You won't get supersonic with either using fast powder, the gun will blow up first because the pressure peaks too quickly.

3). For full power loads, and near1,000 fps in a .40 is getting near that, you need a hard alloy. You won't hear me say that much, but with the .40 you need a hard alloy for best accuracy. By hard, I mean water-dropped wheel weights, not 50/50 Linotype and WW air cooled. Water dropped wheel weights have the correct balance of toughness and hardness to handle the pressure. Even in the 8-900 fps range you're still in the mid-20,000 c.u.p range, and that's almost 10K c.u.p. more than max in a .45 ACP!!!

4). Because of the pressure and hard alloy, boolit fit is absolutely critical to prevent leading and skidding the rifling to the point that it gas-cuts. Make CERTAIN that the dies being used have an adequate diameter expander plug (Lee's don't for sure), and that the dies don't swage the boolit down when crimping or seating.

5). Again, because the high-pressure nature of this round is often overlooked, so is lube quality. I never could get LLA or LLA-based tumble lubes to work in mine, but Felix lube and Carnauba Red both worked extremely well. I'd say for most purposes in the .40 Carnauba Red is the best possible choice, which irks me because I keep both my lubrisizers full of Felix lube and have to soften and finger-lube Carnauba Red in the .40 when I choose to use it.

The bottom line is you can load to the "mouse fart" level with the .40 for practice, but velocities will be much slower than you think. If you want the kind of energy you're used to with mild/medium .45 ACP in your .40, you have to push it much harder. The analogy would be a twin-turbocharged, nitrous oxide injected and overbuilt Honda 4-cylinder drag racing a bone stock 4-wheel drive Dodge diesel pickup. They'll run about the same in the 1/8-mile but what you have to do to get there is much different.

Gear

[Doby45]

I will have to check my load data when I get home. I am loading paper punching load and I could have swore I used Clays just fine, BUT I might have used Universal. I use it a lot too. O rmaybe it was my 45 loads that I was using Clays with..

[geargnasher]

No, Doby, I think it was your nachos you seasoned with Clays! :kidding:

Gear

[Doby45]

I DO Like Nachos! ;) I bet ya I was using the Clays for the 45 and used the Universal for the 40. Either way, when I get home I will be loading up some sweet Miha 402s and takin them to the range. I might even try me some Titegroup.

EDIT: Or some of the 4lbs of 231 I got before I went outta town. I bet that would work good. MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Edubya]

Dillon, Come by tomorrow afternoon and I'll donate a stick of LARS Carnuba Red to ya.

EW

[Dillon]

Sweet, thanks that would be awesome! I will be coming past your shop around 10 so I will drop by then!
and I too am needing to get a .40 caliber powder. I bought a lot of clays and then realized that I couldn't shoot major with it. poop was I mad! I took it back and still cant decide on the powder I want to buy to replace it as I too am worried about the .40 smoke to commit to a buy.

[Doby45]

I will be shooting some this weekend Dillon, I will use Titegroup, Universal and 231. I will let you know how it goes. I will also be using my 50/50 blend of BAC and C-Red..

[Dillon]

sounds good. Im looking forward to the results!

[geargnasher]

FYI you'll have a tough time making major with Titegroup, you'll have to load it hot enough to kick like a mule and it may not be very accurate at those pressures. It sure does burn clean, though!

David and Dillon, if you're shooting .40, get a pound of HS6 or Universal, work up some loads with WDWW, C-red, and start with what Lyman recommends. It's only 20 bucks and you won't be sorry.

One more thing about Titegroup: Don't leave it in the powder meaures for any longer than you have to, it tends to soften and dissolve the plastic. Ruined the hopper on my Uniflow by leaving Titegroup in it overnight.

Gear

[David2011]

Gear, I've always been cautious loading the .40 for all the reasons you state. The cartridge runs at high pressure even at moderate loads. I don't load light loads for practice. It's counter-productive for IPSC. I chronograph and record the load data for every load I try for the .40. If you can't handle the recoil in practice you darned sure won't deal well with it in a match. I do have a steel plate load that I used several years ago in the .40 with a Lyman 401654 150 grain boolit but it's been so long since I've shot the .40 for steel that I would have to look up the powder charge. It was just enough to give solid cycling of the action after 400 rounds without cleaning and really pleasant. I figured 400 rounds was a good benchmark because it was not likeley that I would have to shoot more than 350-360 rounds in a 12 stage steel match. I was only loading for function. Velocity was unimportant.

I think I can shoot my 1911 in .45 faster than the STI Edge in the conditions of a steel plate match so I prefer my .45 for light loads and steel. I don't try to make the .40 shoot like the .45. I consider them to be different tools for different purposes. I built and tuned the .45 specifically for steel.

My standard alloy is 20 lb ww+ 1/2 lb monotype. It doesn't lead the barrel and is plenty accurate for IPSC. I've cast and shot about 30,000 rounds of .40 with this alloy. I've used some commercially cast boolits but when one brand of commercial cast chrono'ed almost 100 fps faster than my boolits I quit using commercially cast boolits for that gun. My velocity jumped from 950 fps to 1047 with the same powder charge; same container of Titegroup. I was able to repeat the results several months later with some leftovers of the same batch of commercial boolits. The diameter was .401. They look like scrap lead- kind of dark with poor definition compared to the boolits I make and the nice boolits others post photos of here- no machining marks of the mold are visible in the boolits.

The expander is a Dillon and the boolits seat easily. I haven't measured it but then I haven't seen any symptoms indicating a problem. I set the separate crimp die using a Dillon 650 to just straighten out the belled mouth back to .423". No heavy crimping. They work right and feed well every time.

David

[David2011]

OK, a lot of posts went by from the time I started typing until now so lots more info came through. Making major with Titegroup has never been a problem. Accuracy has not been a problem. I'm not expecting 1.5" at 50 yards for IPSC. 2" at 25 is plenty good. I don't water quench my .40s as I haven't seen the need with the monotype added to the ww. I'll do a lot of things for small volumes of boolits that I won't do for something that I may cast 60+ pounds of in one day. I'll spend as much time making 300 .44 Mag boolits as I will 1500 .40s. I was fortunate to shoot at a club where there were about 30 IPSC limited shooters participating on a regular basis. Other than Gary Thibodaux who makes GAT Bullets I was the only caster in the bunch but everyone in that area handloaded for Limited so there was a ton of information. Where I live now a lot of prople shoot factor ammo in Limited which is almost 100% .40 S&W.

I've had Titegroup in my Dillon powder measure almost continuously for 4 years without any problems other than maybe a little staining. Thanks for the warning on the Uniflow plastic.

David

[Doby45]

Is around 950 a velocity you like to hit simply to make PF or is that a preferred velocity of yours? I am working up my loads and I will be using the 155gr Miha hollowpoint for pretty much everything. Will work fine for target and use less lead than say a 180gr and the kick should generally be lighter. In selecting that weight I am not looking at using these to make any PF for IPSC so that really has no bearing. But what is a good "standard" velocity for the 40 and then I can work my powder selections around that. I think I can use Titegroup, 231, Universal or WST.

[Dillon]

I need 917 to make major with the 180 gr bullet i Will be shooting, But I would like to get it up to about 940 or 950 just to be safe when I chrono.

[Edubya]

Sweet, thanks that would be awesome! I will be coming past your shop around 10 so I will drop by then!
and I too am needing to get a .40 caliber powder. I bought a lot of clays and then realized that I couldn't shoot major with it. poop was I mad! I took it back and still cant decide on the powder I want to buy to replace it as I too am worried about the .40 smoke to commit to a buy.

I said" Dillon, Come by tomorrow afternoon and I'll donate a stick of LARS Carnuba Red to ya." I wont be in 'til 1:00, you'll have to deal with my wife if you come prior to 1:00. I fold her that you are coming, she has one ready.
I jave to dilute these with one of the softer lubes like vasaline or ATF for the .45 (under 900 FPS).

EW

[Dillon]

oops, I went without reading this post and she told me that you only work afternoons. I will try to stop by this afternoon also. If I cant I will stop by soon, and I really appreciate it! I wil let you know how it tursns out.

[josper]

what do you guys think of power pistol for .40 s&w and 175gr tc bullet?