45 or 44

[donjose]

Been looking at the Ruger 45 or 44 Super Blackhawk Hunter, not sure which way to go.I am reloading and will be starting to cast soon, want to get good accurate 100 yard shots will be putting a Ultra Dot on it.Any thoughts



Thank You
Jason

[RobS]

Well they are both good rounds. The 45 may have a bit of an upper edge with heavies and operating at lower pressures i.e. less wear and tear on the firearm and the shooter. The 44 will shoot lighter bullets faster than the 45 and that is its advantage. These of course are generalized statements. If you plan on reloading then it's a shooters preference. I personally prefer the 45 colt over the 44 mag, but both calibers shine for hunting. If you are not a reloader then the 44 mag will give you more variance with manufactured ammunition.

Regarding the 45 vs the 44 super Blackhawk Hunter...............the 45 colt will be tougher to find no doubt as there were a lot less of these made. Lipsey, a company, had these models put together exclusively for them some time back and to put numbers to it there were 603 of the standard 45 colt Super Blackhawk hunters and 279 45 colt Super Blackhawk Hunter Bisleys produced. You can still find the standard Super Blackhawk Hunter floating around on Gunbroker, but the Super Blackhawk Hunter Bisley model seems to be one that doesn't show up very often.

The 44 mag Super Blackhawk Hunter and 44 mag Super Blackhawk Bisley Hunter are currently produced firearms by Ruger and can be found readily which makes the 44 in the particular configuration a bit more attainable.

Another option might be a Ruger Super Redhawk 454 casull if you prefer the 45 caliber class.

[454PB]

I agree with RobS.

As a handloader, you can make the .45 Colt equal the .44 magnum in delivered energy with some experimentation and load development. Goggle John Linebaugh and read his research on high pressure loads.

If you don't want to do the load experimentation and development, get the .44 magnum.

I own two Rugers in .45 Colt, one a standard BH convertible and the other a SBH Hunter. I use moderately heavy loads in both. Since I own several .454 Casulls, I turn to them for more power when needed.

[jmsj]

donjose,
I don't think you can go wrong with either one. There seems to be a lot more choices in bullet molds and load data in .44 mag. Currently I am trying to find loads for my Ruger Bisley SBH. I also own a Ruger Bisley/Vaquero in 45 Colt and I load it pretty hot. It is my hiking and back up hunting sidearm. It is very accurate If you get get a chance try both grip styles. Some people really like the Bisley style grip and others really hate it. Personally, I really like it.

[Bass Ackward]

Forget caliber argument. If those are the gun choices, I'd go with the hunter regardless of what caliber it is in.

Never know when you might want a scope for magnification and although you won't get them to say so, I do believe that it's human nature to do a better job on something that you are building if you believe the man on the other end will appreciate it. Gets you out of the assembly routine mentality.

So I believe the Hunter models get the best attention, dimensions, parts, etc.

[Ed K]

So I believe the Hunter models get the best attention, dimensions, parts, etc.

Bass, I would have tended to think philosophically in that same direction. Last week I saw this from a reputable source - one who deals heavily in Ruger SAs. Now I don't know what to believe.

I will no longer offer any services for the Hunter model Ruger SA's. They seem to be plagued with problems from the factory that I cannot fix to my satisfaction.

Clements Custom Guns (http://www.clementscustomguns.com/notesfromdavid.html)

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Get the 45 ! The so called 44 Mag is really a .43 mag . I sold my last one back about 1980 and have no regrets shooting 45 Colts and the 41 mag.. both of which are true diameters to thier name.
Bigger holes are always better and a 300 grainer at 1200 fps + will knock the stuffings out of any critter it smacks. I plink with a 265 grainer that will go through any corn cruncher I have ever popped and they get right big in east Illinois.

[pdawg_shooter]

I will no longer offer any services for the Hunter model Ruger SA's. They seem to be plagued with problems from the factory that I cannot fix to my satisfaction.

Clements Custom Guns

Why would the Hunter model be any different than any other Ruger?

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I would have tended to think philosophically in that same direction. Last week I saw this from a reputable source - one who deals heavily in Ruger SAs. Now I don't know what to believe.

I will no longer offer any services for the Hunter model Ruger SA's. They seem to be plagued with problems from the factory that I cannot fix to my satisfaction.

Clements Custom Guns (http://www.clementscustomguns.com/notesfromdavid.html)



Well, so much for logic. That was "theorized" from the ones that I have seen. But they see a heck of a lot more of these than I do.

So maybe my assertion that they are better is wrong, but on the other hand, why should they be any worse?

[pdawg_shooter]

[QUOTE=Bass Ackward;986037]Well, so much for logic. That was "theorized" from the ones that I have seen. But they see a heck of a lot more of these than I do.

So maybe my assertion that they are better is wrong, but on the other hand, why should they be any worse?[/QUOTE

How could they be any worse?

[Hardcast416taylor]

A friend had a hunter model. The first problem was the ejector housing popped out because it was warped. Couldn`t put it back on as the screw hole that held it on was stripped as was the screw. We won`t even talk about the size of the chambers. The timing wasn`t quite right either. He sent it back. Ruger said he had done most of the bending and stripping to the gun parts. Nothing was said about the out of whack chambers and timing. He was finally sent a new pistol certificate to be used at any dealer. He opted for a standard Blackhawk. I can attest to the problems as the firing of all 18 Rem. factory cartridges (!) was done on my range the day he got the pistol, Ruger didn`t want to talk to me about the problems.Robert

[Heavy lead]

Get both.:lol:

[white eagle]

I have both and like both
you can't loose with either one [smilie=p:

[44man]

Like any other gun, there can be a bad one but from those I have owned and what my friends own, they have all been deadly accurate with no problems any different then any other Ruger.
All have only needed a trigger job so far.

[Ed K]

Like any other gun, there can be a bad ...

44 man I agree with you. I also agree there must be good ones so not to insult anyone here on the board that has a good one: congratulations! At the same time I would think that David Clements has seen many more Ruger Hunters than anyone on this board, can look at them objectively and if there is more statistical variation in them than their should be - he would know.

Besides one or two other well-known gunsmiths I should think that the only ones looking at significantly more might be Ruger themselves. They cannot be relied upon for an unbiased and independent opinion.

[Murphy]

I'll probably get some flack for this, but it's just my opinion.

My biggest issue with loading the .45 COLT to pressure's it was never meant to be pushed too, is that should any of the loads fall into the wrong hands...it's a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm not knocking the .45 COLT, it's a great catridge. But if it's power you want, then buy a gun intended for the purpose.

Murphy

[dvnv]

Speak you mind freely, it's your law. dvnv

[Whitworth]

I'll probably get some flack for this, but it's just my opinion.

My biggest issue with loading the .45 COLT to pressure's it was never meant to be pushed too, is that should any of the loads fall into the wrong hands...it's a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm not knocking the .45 COLT, it's a great catridge. But if it's power you want, then buy a gun intended for the purpose.

Murphy


But in a modern firearm, that can handle hotter loads with no trouble, why not push it a bit? You don't have to load your .45 Colt like a .454 Casull to make it superior to a .44 mag.

[bisleyfan41]

Seems funny, though, that Clements is the only smith with such issues. Bowen, Harton, Reeder, and Gallagher offer quality services for the Hunters. John Linebaugh even offers a dedicated model on the 45 Bisley Hunter. None have uttered a word about them having "plagues"and I have seen 2 examples from Gallagher that were flawless. Not really sure exactly what "plagues" that he can't fix he's referring to. Oh well, to each, their own. But I can say the Hunters I own have been used extensively with zero issues.

BTW, if you want a 45 Hunter, there was recently a "clean up" run of the regular Hunter-gripped 45s from inventory parts Ruger had on hand. If you want a 45 Hunter, this may be the last, best time to get one at any reasonable price. Although I'd love to see it, there probably won't be another run of them again. The 45 Bisley Hunters are few and far between with the last one I saw on GB sell at the $1000 mark. The regular ones won't be as scarce, but they ain't everywhere either. I'd choose the 44 model, if it were me, but you can't go wrong with either.

[donjose]

Thanks for all the replys I was wondering why David Clements was not working on them any more, so I called him and asked why.He told me that he had seen several that the barrel threads were not cut correctly and so when fired the barrels would move side to side making them unable to get good acccuracy. Up untill that I havent heard a bad thing about the hunter at all.

Jason

[white eagle]

I'm with you Whitworth
the 45 colt has some muscle for sure
just needed to flex it

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Been looking at the Ruger 45 or 44 Super Blackhawk Hunter, not sure which way to go.I am reloading and will be starting to cast soon, want to get good accurate 100 yard shots will be putting a Ultra Dot on it.Any thoughts



Thank You
Jason

Hi Jason,

The BH and SBH are handguns if you're looking for accuracy at 100 yds you need a rifle. Both cartridges are quite capable of good accuracy at 100 yds but only a very skilled shooter can produce better than minute of torso accuracy with a handgun at 100 yds. Think about what you want to do with the gun before you lay out the cash for a handgun when what you really need is a rifle. Winchester makes a nice lever action in both cartridges, I think Henry makes a .45 Yellow Boy.

.44 vs .45 Generally speaking the .44 shoots a little flatter and a little further. The .45 thumps a lot harder in the effective range of handguns. Don't confuse velocity with power. Velocity gives trajectory and range. Power is a function of mass and diameter.

The .45 is a superior stopper to the .44 in a handgun out to about 75 yards. Beyond that the 44 starts to close the gap.

One last point. Call me a snob, old, or a purist but it's wrong on so many levels to top a handgun with optics, spend time at the range and learn to shoot.:kidding:

I have a couple hunting loads for the .45 if you're interested. I've killed deer, hogs, black bear and a buffalo with my BH Convertable 7.5"bbl. Not one of them took a step.

Last year my son killed a Black Bear with his S&W Mod 25-5 and a 300 gr bullet at 900 fps. From a tree stand at about 35 yds it shattered the shoulder, penetrated the lung lengthwise at about 45DEG, severed and lodged in the spine. We estimated about 26 inches of penetration. He dropped like a dish rag and was for all practical purposes dead when he hit the ground.

[Lloyd Smale]

As to the 45 thumping deer alot harder i wouldnt bet the farm on it. Ive shot enough deer bear and pigs with both to KNOW that both kill about the same. Its more of a matter of load level your using then which cartridge your using. Load both with a comparable flat nose cast 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps and no animal walking will know the differnce in which you use and with cast bullets you can about lump the 454 in there too. I dont really notice animals having more reaction to hits until i step up to the 475.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

As to the 45 thumping deer alot harder i wouldnt bet the farm on it. Ive shot enough deer bear and pigs with both to KNOW that both kill about the same. Its more of a matter of load level your using then which cartridge your using. Load both with a comparable flat nose cast 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps and no animal walking will know the differnce in which you use and with cast bullets you can about lump the 454 in there too. I dont really notice animals having more reaction to hits until i step up to the 475.

You had better bet the farm on it, if you intend to keep working the farm. The science of terminal ballistics does not support you. With all due respect; what you think you KNOW about incapacitation and lethality is highly subjective and probably influenced more by Madison Ave. marketing of the term magnum than actual data.

First things first. John Taylor’s “Knock Out” formula is a simple calculation of “thump”. It’s used and endorsed by most large bore handgun designers including John Linebaugh, Jack Fulmer and Evan Whildin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

Caliber x Bullet Wt. x Velocity / 7000

Using your parameters from above:
.44 Mag .429 x 300 x 1200 / 7000 22.07 KO
.45 LC .452 x 300 x 1200 / 7000 23.25 HO

Strictly speaking the .44 can manage about 95% the Knock Out power of the .45 under similar conditions. As a bonus, the .45 delivers this power with less wear and tear owing to the larger capacity case and lower pressures.

I know 5% doesn’t sound like much but consider the difference between the .41 and .44; they differ in diameter a nominal .019. Similarly the .44 and .45 differ by a nominal .023. In terms of “thump” w/ 220 grain bullets the .41 produces about 94% the power of the .44. Intuitively we all know the .44 packs more punch than the .44 but mathematically only 5-6%. From the standpoint of terminal ballistics, a .45 LC enjoys an advantage over the .44 equal to the advantage the .44 enjoys over the .41.

As NCOIC of the Weapons Training Battalion Combat Marksmanship Center of Excellence I was involved in a number of studies regarding incapacitation. Your statement: both kill about the same may be true, but in discussion about terminal ballistics is irrelevant. Death is a result of hydraulic decompression (Blood loss) or destruction of the central nervous system. .Under ideal circumstances decompression takes about 15 seconds for most mammals between 200 and 600 lbs slightly longer for larger animals and is a poor metric for terminal ballistics and incapacitation (more deer are killed every year with broad head arrows than .44 bullets, that doesn’t make an arrow’s terminal ballistics superior in terms of incapacitation). How far can a whitetail get in 10 seconds? Absent an instant destruction of the central nervous system the ability to drop an animal in its tracks depends on incapacitation rather than killing it.

Two factors determine incapacitation; pain and shock. Unfortunately we have no way to ask a deer what that felt like, so any discussion of what a deer may or may not feel is purely speculative. Shock or more precisely ‘hemorrhagic shock’ can be measured and studied.

Hemorrhagic shock results from a sudden loss of large quantities of blood and tissue, the immediate result is primary shock (physical collapse) or total incapacitation. Inducing hemorrhagic shock requires a large permanent wound cavity, the larger the better. There is no hydro-static effect to living tissue, because a hydro-static wound cavity is temporary and the energy is transmitted radially. H_S will not damage elastic tissue, only the brain, liver and kidneys are damaged by hydro-static shock. It’s the size of the wound that causes the shock not energy transfer. When inflicting incapacitating wounds, energy retained in the projectile is far more useful than energy transferred to the surrounding wet tissue. The further a projectile penetrates intact the larger the wound cavity. Once a projectile fragments, exits or stops it is no longer effective, obviously.

Leaving aside the effects of yaw and tumbling a .452 diameter projectile makes a larger hole than a .429 and is less prone (due to is ratio of diameter to velocity) to rapid fragmentation. Fragmentation reduces the size of the wound cavity geometrically resulting in reduced incapacitation.

As you correctly pointed up a .44 will drop most any animal in North America in it’s tracks as often as a .45. That only suggests the .44 is adequate to hunt North American game, it does not suggest the .44 is better or for that matter equal to the .45 in terms of ability to incapacitate. On the contrary, terminal ballistics and incapacitation theory prove just the opposite.

Once again, at typical handgun range a .45 has more knock out power than a .44 period. The .44 will outperform the .45 outside typical handgun range because the smaller diameter projectile will retain more velocity further down range. That’s why it makes an excellent short range rifle cartridge.

Top

[Big Dave]

My 2 cents worth. I have to agree with Murphy, high power loads in 45 cases are in the same class as 357 mag loads in 38 special cases. Extreme care must be taken that they don't get into a gun that will not handle the pressure, that is an old 38 special wheel gun or an old SAA, At least in the 38/357 loading you can seat the boolit long enough to prevent chambering in a 38 special cylinder. Unfortunatly a 45 is a 45 is a45!!!
All that aside, a 45 in a premium magnum quality gun is hard to beat.

[Ed K]

Unfortunately a 45 is a 45 is a45!!!

A Ruger blackhawk cylinder is about 0.080" longer then a colt/colt copy. Why not load to an OAL that would tie up the cylinder in the Colt while leaving 30- 40 thou clearance in the Ruger?

[jwp475]

You had better bet the farm on it, if you intend to keep working the farm. The science of terminal ballistics does not support you. With all due respect; what you think you KNOW about incapacitation and lethality is highly subjective and probably influenced more by Madison Ave. marketing of the term magnum than actual data.

First things first. John Taylor’s “Knock Out” formula is a simple calculation of “thump”. It’s used and endorsed by most large bore handgun designers including John Linebaugh, Jack Fulmer and Evan Whildin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

Caliber x Bullet Wt. x Velocity / 7000

Using your parameters from above:
.44 Mag .429 x 300 x 1200 / 7000 22.07 KO
.45 LC .452 x 300 x 1200 / 7000 23.25 HO

Strictly speaking the .44 can manage about 95% the Knock Out power of the .45 under similar conditions. As a bonus, the .45 delivers this power with less wear and tear owing to the larger capacity case and lower pressures.

I know 5% doesn’t sound like much but consider the difference between the .41 and .44; they differ in diameter a nominal .019. Similarly the .44 and .45 differ by a nominal .023. In terms of “thump” w/ 220 grain bullets the .41 produces about 94% the power of the .44. Intuitively we all know the .44 packs more punch than the .44 but mathematically only 5-6%. From the standpoint of terminal ballistics, a .45 LC enjoys an advantage over the .44 equal to the advantage the .44 enjoys over the .41.

As NCOIC of the Weapons Training Battalion Combat Marksmanship Center of Excellence I was involved in a number of studies regarding incapacitation. Your statement: both kill about the same may be true, but in discussion about terminal ballistics is irrelevant. Death is a result of hydraulic decompression (Blood loss) or destruction of the central nervous system. .Under ideal circumstances decompression takes about 15 seconds for most mammals between 200 and 600 lbs slightly longer for larger animals and is a poor metric for terminal ballistics and incapacitation (more deer are killed every year with broad head arrows than .44 bullets, that doesn’t make an arrow’s terminal ballistics superior in terms of incapacitation). How far can a whitetail get in 10 seconds? Absent an instant destruction of the central nervous system the ability to drop an animal in its tracks depends on incapacitation rather than killing it.

Two factors determine incapacitation; pain and shock. Unfortunately we have no way to ask a deer what that felt like, so any discussion of what a deer may or may not feel is purely speculative. Shock or more precisely ‘hemorrhagic shock’ can be measured and studied.

Hemorrhagic shock results from a sudden loss of large quantities of blood and tissue, the immediate result is primary shock (physical collapse) or total incapacitation. Inducing hemorrhagic shock requires a large permanent wound cavity, the larger the better. There is no hydro-static effect to living tissue, because a hydro-static wound cavity is temporary and the energy is transmitted radially. H_S will not damage elastic tissue, only the brain, liver and kidneys are damaged by hydro-static shock. It’s the size of the wound that causes the shock not energy transfer. When inflicting incapacitating wounds, energy retained in the projectile is far more useful than energy transferred to the surrounding wet tissue. The further a projectile penetrates intact the larger the wound cavity. Once a projectile fragments, exits or stops it is no longer effective, obviously.

Leaving aside the effects of yaw and tumbling a .452 diameter projectile makes a larger hole than a .429 and is less prone (due to is ratio of diameter to velocity) to rapid fragmentation. Fragmentation reduces the size of the wound cavity geometrically resulting in reduced incapacitation.

As you correctly pointed up a .44 will drop most any animal in North America in it’s tracks as often as a .45. That only suggests the .44 is adequate to hunt North American game, it does not suggest the .44 is better or for that matter equal to the .45 in terms of ability to incapacitate. On the contrary, terminal ballistics and incapacitation theory prove just the opposite.

Once again, at typical handgun range a .45 has more knock out power than a .44 period. The .44 will outperform the .45 outside typical handgun range because the smaller diameter projectile will retain more velocity further down range. That’s why it makes an excellent short range rifle cartridge.

Top



I have to agree 110%. I have always noted that on game the 45 is definitely higher on the food chain than a 44. One can see the greater physical reaction when the bullet hits as well as a clearly larger diameter entrance hole.

IME&O the 45 is the best all round caliber for anything in the lower 48

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry buy my measurement doesnt come from paper ballistics or math equations or from the opinion of some other guy. John linebaugh is a freind of mine but when i talk about handguns and loads that work i rarely will quote even him. Ive shot as much game with a sixgun as anyone on this fourm and much more then most. Ive take game as small as rabbit and as big as bison with both and many many deer pigs and black bear inbetween and If you can tell me for a fact that a 44 or 45 shooting a hardcast 300 grain lfn at 1200 fps will do a dammed bit differnt in the field your smoking crack. Even John will tell you that. As far as that goes the major differnce between those two and the 475 and 500 will rarely show as effect on an animal. John himself has withnessed what i have. Weve both shot buffalo with the 500 that continued grazing till they fell over dead. What the bigger caliber give you is heavier bullets that tend to penetrate better on very large animals. To say the 45 is a better killer then a 44 is no differnt then saying that the 280 is a much better killer then a 270. To much hype is bottle fed to people by gun writers who need to put something in an article. I would suggest you go out and shoot 50 deer with each and see for yourself. Taylor knock down may work in a big bore rifle that shoots 2000fps but dont bet your life on any sixgun knocking down game. Ive had deer drop in there tracks with shots from a 357 and have had others run a 100 yards with simular shots with a 500 linebaugh. Ive done enough handgun hunting to know that the biggest variable in killing quickly is bullet placement. Have enough gun and load to penetrate to the nervous system and shut it down and the animal goes down. Put a hole through something that causes bleading and the animal is running dead. A bigger hole may cause it to fall one step sooner and a 475 or 500 might knock two steps off that but thats about it and in all reality there no way to even prove that. I get a charge out of guys that think because there shooting something like a 475 or 500 there ready to kill dinasours when in fact there hunting with a weapon that has not a bit more power then a black powder 4570. Funny thing is ive shot 7 bison now with cast bullets in 44s 45s 475s and 500s and the only one shot drop in its tracks shot i made was with a 44 mag using 250 grain bullets. Wasnt really a load i would have intentionaly took buffalo hunting but the opportunity presented itself and thats what i had in the holster. Glad that buffalo didnt know i wastnt shooting a 45 at it. Animals just dont react to hits from slow moving cast bullets like they do from high velocity jackted rifles. Shut off the computer and put down the gun magazines and Go out and kill a few and ill bet you a dime to a dollar you will agree with me.

[jwp475]

sorry buy my measurement doesnt come from paper ballistics or math equations or from the opinion of some other guy. John linebaugh is a freind of mine but when i talk about handguns and loads that work i rarely will quote even him. Ive shot as much game with a sixgun as anyone on this fourm and much more then most. Ive take game as small as rabbit and as big as bison with both and many many deer pigs and black bear inbetween and If you can tell me for a fact that a 44 or 45 shooting a hardcast 300 grain lfn at 1200 fps will do a dammed bit differnt in the field your smoking crack. Even John will tell you that. As far as that goes the major differnce between those two and the 475 and 500 will rarely show as effect on an animal. John himself has withnessed what i have. Weve both shot buffalo with the 500 that continued grazing till they fell over dead. What the bigger caliber give you is heavier bullets that tend to penetrate better on very large animals. To say the 45 is a better killer then a 44 is no differnt then saying that the 280 is a much better killer then a 270. To much hype is bottle fed to people by gun writers who need to put something in an article. I would suggest you go out and shoot 50 deer with each and see for yourself. Taylor knock down may work in a big bore rifle that shoots 2000fps but dont bet your life on any sixgun knocking down game. Ive had deer drop in there tracks with shots from a 357 and have had others run a 100 yards with simular shots with a 500 linebaugh. Ive done enough handgun hunting to know that the biggest variable in killing quickly is bullet placement. Have enough gun and load to penetrate to the nervous system and shut it down and the animal goes down. Put a hole through something that causes bleading and the animal is running dead. A bigger hole may cause it to fall one step sooner and a 475 or 500 might knock two steps off that but thats about it and in all reality there no way to even prove that. I get a charge out of guys that think because there shooting something like a 475 or 500 there ready to kill dinasours when in fact there hunting with a weapon that has not a bit more power then a black powder 4570. Funny thing is ive shot 7 bison now with cast bullets in 44s 45s 475s and 500s and the only one shot drop in its tracks shot i made was with a 44 mag using 250 grain bullets. Wasnt really a load i would have intentionaly took buffalo hunting but the opportunity presented itself and thats what i had in the holster. Glad that buffalo didnt know i wastnt shooting a 45 at it. Animals just dont react to hits from slow moving cast bullets like they do from high velocity jackted rifles. Shut off the computer and put down the gun magazines and Go out and kill a few and ill bet you a dime to a dollar you will agree with me.


The only one smoking crack is you, Lloyd. I have shot a few semi trucks full of game with a handgun and you can definitely see the difference in impact between the .45 and the .44. I have always used 300+ grain bullets on the big stuff and if you can't see the difference, you have zero power of observation. There is definietely a step up from .45 to .475 -- a big step up and a smaller step up from the .475 to the .500 and even an inexperienced hunter can see the difference in impact and the reaction of the hunter.

May I suggest 1 (800) OPTOMETRIST if you can't see the difference?

Only Ray Charles couldn't see the difference.

[30calflash]

Thanks for all the replys I was wondering why David Clements was not working on them any more, so I called him and asked why.He told me that he had seen several that the barrel threads were not cut correctly and so when fired the barrels would move side to side making them unable to get good acccuracy. Up untill that I havent heard a bad thing about the hunter at all.

Jason

It sounded more like a quality cotrol issue than anything else. When you send a gun out for work they will fix the factory problems in the process.

[Dean D.]

Hey guys, just a friendly reminder to keep it civil. Debate is fine. Name calling or character bashing isn't acceptable. Agree to disagree and move on if you can't keep it civil.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

First Off, I must say I own revolvers in both calibers.
I am a fan of the 44Mag over the 45LC.
I am sure there is a slight ballistic difference as stated above,
But I can't imagine that slight difference is worth worrying about.

In this modern age, anything is easily available "NEW" from most suppliers.
with that said,
44 is more common, which means it's easier to find reloading
components and dies...second hand...for cheap.
that includes the Gun too.

I prefer DA revolvers ie. the Redhawk, over single action,
but it appears you already have your mind made up on that.
Jon

[two bit okie]

I have been loading and casting 44 mag for over 40 yrs. Before the 45 had much real heater loads available. I have now, 4 44 mags, and am now down two.

If I were just starting out now, I would probably go 45.

However as I am completly set up for casting 3 different 44 bullets 200 gr, 245, and 318 gr. I cannot see adding a different caliber.

SOOOOOOOOOO, do you already have either a 44 or 45. If yes that is probably the one that you should go with.

JMHO, which with a doller, will get you cup of joe and burger king.

[ole 5 hole group]

Dean, everything seems fine to me – just some good ole kibitzing back & forth. Master Gunny is correct with the information he provided but as with most “facts” there’s always a “mystery” as to why something happens when knowing most of the facts – an anomaly may be a better term. I’ve seen moose hit with 308’s and if I hadn’t heard the hits I would have sworn the rounds missed because the moose never reacted to the bullets but a 308 has also put a moose down on the spot.

Bullet placement is key but sometimes animals and humans just don’t act like they should when fatally struck by a large projectile. I know the 45 thumps a little harder than the 44 using the same weight & velocity but I don’t use heavy bullets in the 44 (270 grain) but I go real heavy with the 45’s (340 grain), so maybe there would be a noticable difference but with my limited experience I haven’t noticed anything out of the ordinary.

Ever see a pheasant in flight take off and go vertical at the shot? He always comes down dead with only a pellet or two in him. I’ve experienced this phenomenon twice – once a pellet to the heart (1-#5 pellet) and the other time 2 pellets to the head. Why did he go vertical for 50 feet instead of coming straight down or setting his wings and glide off to hell & gone? That’s about all I can add to this discussion but I always have been in the bigger is better camp, as that was what I was taught over 60 years ago – life got better when I moved up from the 410 to a 12 gauge. I think senility was the main reason I moved up from the 45 Colt to the 500L Max.

[Lloyd Smale]

guess i dont know how you could prove it. Stand 10 animals up and hit them with both in the same exact spot and you will have 20 differnt reactions to a hit. Ill stand behind what ive seen with my own two eyes. either will kill and not a single animal on earth hit with both in the vitals would give differnt final results. I probaly shoot 30 whitetails a year doing crop damage with handguns and sure couldnt tell you a differnce. 90 percent of them hunch up and run 20-50 yards and drop dead. Doesnt seem to matter much what caliber there hit with. If you really think that a .22 thousands bigger bullet through the lungs means anything ive got a bridge to sell you. Problem with all of this is its impossible to prove either way. One guy can shoot a couple deer with a 45 and get lucky and have quick kills and fully believe it kills better but shoot enough of them and you will see every reaction to a bullet thats possible and no real rhymm or reason for it. Another thing is a guy will really like a caliber and tend to see it in a better light then another and remember the good kills and kind of forget the ones he chased. Ive got as many 45 colts as about anyone here and never said they werent an excellent hunting round. Its just i kind of tire of people that think its some kind of majical killing machine. In fact that if you want to use math to equate perfomance a 44 bullet of the same exact weight and design will usually outpenetrate a 45 bullet. You want to see paper performance look back at the old linebaugh seminar penetration test. You will find one where i shot a 340 lfn at 1200 fps out of a ruger that bested all the 45 colt loads and the only thing that did better was a couple of the many 475 loads that were shot that year. Ill bow out of this argument gracefully now that its become one. Its like convincing a ford man a chev is better. eveyone has there own opinion and are welcome to believe in them.
The only one smoking crack is you, Lloyd. I have shot a few semi trucks full of game with a handgun and you can definitely see the difference in impact between the .45 and the .44. I have always used 300+ grain bullets on the big stuff and if you can't see the difference, you have zero power of observation. There is definietely a step up from .45 to .475 -- a big step up and a smaller step up from the .475 to the .500 and even an inexperienced hunter can see the difference in impact and the reaction of the hunter.

May I suggest 1 (800) OPTOMETRIST if you can't see the difference?

Only Ray Charles couldn't see the difference.

[tek4260]

I have to agree with you Lloyd. No deer shot behind the shoulder with a handgun will drop in its tracks unless you hit the spine. My first deer with a handgun was shot with a factory 240 at about 40 yards. Behind the shoulders and it ran about 50 yards. Dad killed one the next week from the same stand with his 500 Smith, 350(?) factory loads. The deer was shot behind the shoulders like mine and fell dead in about 50 yards as well. I have killed 9 since then with handguns and most with 45's shooting 325's. They all have fell sooner with that load over the factory 44. I have some 300's loaded in my 44 that I will try this year and I figure they will do about the same as the 325 45's. I do believe Linebaugh that the 45 is better than the 44. How much better? I have no clue. Guess I have to burn a few more pounds of H110 and try to decide. :-D

[Bass Ackward]

Not many facts ever grace these boards, but I will give you one. And for the uneducated folks it won't contain any math.

History fails to show a single animal killed by a 44 Mag or a 45 Colt. Nor any other cartridge. Those cartridges go in to guns or launching platforms. The launching systems don't kill much either unless you beat it to death with one. Those items work together to launch bullets.

Bullets have weight and energy provided by the strike velocity and the bullet design and construction govern the tissue displacement and energy transfer. And the reaction is different in different game or the same animal based upon the material density struck.

So arguing about the gun or the caliber tells me that more education / understanding / practical experience is required. Regardless of any kill numbers listed or container sizes filled.

So does a bullet from a 45 Colt out kill a 44 Mag with equal length barrels? (even with math!) Yes. Under certain conditions. But .........

If you are going to violate SAAMI pressure levels for one, why not the other? Understand that in the same handgun type, there will always be more steel in the smaller caliber gun providing more strength. That strength will allow a higher breach of SAAMI standard pressures. More pressure makes more velocity and THAT makes any meplat work better ruining the bigger bore diameter is always better "theory".

[Blammer]

get the 44 cause you have a bunch o boolit selections.

See! :)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/44list-1.jpg

that's my reasoning. :)

[David2011]

Blammer,

That's a vulgar selection. You should be ashamed to wag that many boolits in front of us.

David

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

:holysheep
thanks alot Blammer, now i gotta go change my undies !!!
Jon

[ole 5 hole group]

If you are going to violate SAAMI pressure levels for one, why not the other? Understand that in the same handgun type, there will always be more steel in the smaller caliber gun providing more strength. That strength will allow a higher breach of SAAMI standard pressures. More pressure makes more velocity and THAT makes any meplat work better ruining the bigger bore diameter is always better "theory".

*** Over

[donjose]

I agree with Lloyd there are plenty of keyboard commandos in the world
and very few that have shot as much game as he has.


Jason

[jwp475]

I agree with Lloyd there are plenty of keyboard commandos in the world
and very few that have shot as much game as he has.


Jason

All were taken with a revolver and none were in a "Harvest Pen"

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/HuntingPicturesfrom2006079.jpg


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/ParkerBuffInSnow.jpg


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000003.jpg


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg



http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/parker_buffalo.jpg



There is most definitely a difference in the reaction of LARGE game as the bore diameter and bullet weight increase. To say that there is not makes me question ones observation ability

[jwp475]

. If you really think that a .22 thousands bigger bullet through the lungs means anything ive got a bridge to sell you. .

I know that it leave a larger diameter wound channel. If going up in bore size is meaningless, then there is no point in the big bores, right?

I doubt that you have a bridge

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

I agree with Lloyd there are plenty of keyboard commandos in the world
and very few that have shot as much game as he has.


Jason

Probably not.

I’ll have to admit some of these hunting resumes are much more impressive than mine. While it’s nothing to write home about, my little bit of experience in the field of terminal ballistics originates from a 30+ year career in handgun instruction, weapons testing and tactics development for the Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion. More recently from, 2004 until I retired earlier last year I served with MARSOC in Afghanistan and Iraq. We didn’t hunt deer. The critters we hunted were about 150lbs and don’t conform to the puerile notion; Put a hole through something that causes bleading and the animal is running dead. Unlike deer these critters are perfectly capable to return fire with far nastier weaponry a .44 magnum if not put down hard.

While it may be inconvenient to hoof it 50 yards to collect a whitetail solidly hit or dangerous to trail a wounded bear. It’s even more unforgiving by an order of magnitude for a 24 year old Corporal, eyeball to eyeball, nose to nose and toes to toes with a bomb vest model to depend on what people think they know about terminal ballistics and incapacitation, because they don’t believe in ‘them there equashuns and that scientufik junk”.

Quite frankly, I’ve studied more gunshot wounds to mammals on everything from humans to horses to elephants, attended more post mortems, studied more live projectile impacts, shot more cadavers and tested more loads and weapons from 1980 to 1994 than Lloyd has fired rounds. It was my job 7 days a week for 14 years, not my hobby. I know what kills, more importantly I know what incapacitates. It takes a heavy hammer to drive a long nail with one blow; you can’t drive a railroad spike with a tack hammer no matter how fast you swing in it.

Just because Lloyd can't or hasn't obverved the difference doesn't mean there isn't a practical difference. I've never witnessed a monkey change into a man, that doesn't make evolution untrue.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

If you really think that a .22 thousands bigger bullet through the lungs means anything ive got a bridge to sell you.

Here, I'll put down the crack pipe long enough to do a little cypher'n for ya.

It leaves a bigger hole by more than .022. A bullet is round it’s true measure is circumference.
From 7th grade geometry:
c = d x pi
.425 x 3.14 = 1.42"
.429 x 3.14 = 1.35"

That doesn't look like much does it? A wound cavity is cylindrical, now here is where the whole issue gets really interesting.

Again from 7th grade geometry
The volume of a cylinder is pi x radius squared x height
Let’s assume we penetrate 10 inches of lung tissue, shall we?

3.14 x ( .452/2 x .452/2 ) x 10 = 1.89 cubic inches
3.14 x (.429/2 x .429/2 ) x 10 = 1.57 cubic inches
It would appear my deer is missing (1.57/1.89) 17% more lung than your deer.

Tell about that bridge you got for sale.





Problem with all of this is its impossible to prove either way.

Not really, I just did.


One guy can shoot a couple deer with a 45 and get lucky and have quick kills and fully believe it kills better but shoot enough of them and you will see every reaction to a bullet thats possible and no real rhymm or reason for it.

There are perfectly sound scientific explanations for it, you just haven't studied it with any sort of scientific method.

[9.3X62AL]

I thought I would sit this one out, but MGSgt's resume prompted me to say a bit. My own experience is not quite as forensically extensive as his, but my own beliefs parallel his very closely, based on similarity of backgrounds as a "persons"/homicide detective. His Big Nail With Small Hammer anecdote is one for the ages. Like that, a lot.

Back to the original poster's question, that being 44 vs 45 in the context of hunting calibers. The huge variable being largely ignored--like the elephant in the room--is shot placement. Once we add the element "assuming like/similar shot placement", these differences in the handgun calibers on game aren't quite so riveting. It seems to me that for purposes of game-taking we should concentrate our efforts on ensuring proper shot placement with whatever caliber and bullet we choose, and not be so distracted by a difference of micro-inches of caliber variance. Neither the 44 nor the 45 caliber boolit will do a deer much good, I think it is safe to say. That might also be applicable to hunting armed bad guys, as well. I do loves me a good Mozambique.

[whitetailsniper]

ID HAVE TO AGREE ON THE 45 LONG COLT,,,JOHN Linebaugh SAYS HIS SON IS HITTING OVER 200 YRDS WITH HIS. AND HIS WIFES DOING JUST AS WELL WITH HERS. I HAVE A RUGER SUPER BLKHAWK BISLEY HUNTER 41 REM MAG 7 1/2 BARREL, I LIKE IT ALOT,,MAYBE MORE SO THAN THE 44. THE 45 LONG COLT IS IN MY HUMBLE OPION, GIVE YOU THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS,,YOU CAN ALSO FIND THE 41 REM MAG WILL MEET AND AT TIMES EXCEED THE 44 MAG,WITHOUT GETTING THE RECOIL PUNISHMENT,AND GET SOME NICE DISTANCES,MEETING YOUR WANTS. WERE THE 44MAG AMMO IS PLENTYFUL IN A WIDE RANGE OF LOADS, IM SEEING A TREND OF FOLKS GOING FOR THE 45 LONG COLT OVER THE 44 MAG. AND WHEN TALKNG BLKHAWK,,LOOK AND THINK OF THE BISLEY, NO MATTER HOW YOU LOAD IT ,,YOUR HANDS WILL THANK YOU. JOHN LINEBAUGHS FAVORITE LOADS ARE FOR A 45 LONG COLT,BUT THATS JOHN,,YOU GOTTA BE YOU,AND HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE,AND WHAT FEELS GOOD TO YOU. ME? IM A BIG 41 REM MAG ,,AND 45 LONG COLT FAN,,DONT GET ME WRONG I HAVE A 44 MAG AS WELL, BUT AS TIME HAS PASSED THE 44 MAG CONTINUES TO SIT.

[Lloyd Smale]

jwp475 has also shot alot of game with handguns and believe it or not i respect his opinion. I may not agree with everything he says but he got his opionion the right way by shooting game animals. Like i tried to say eailer there is just to many variables like bullet weight, velocity, meplat size, alloy, and shot placement to answer this question with definate answer. Both rounds will kill any game animal alive with a proper bullet in the proper spot and ill stand behind my opinion that no animal is going to know the differnce in which hit him. Master Sargent I have respect for you to believe it or not. You served your country for many years and im sure some of the studies you did helped the soldiers in the field. The only thing im going to questioin is in all the testing you did for the army i would have to doubt that much of it was done with hard cast 44 and 45 colt bullets. Im sure most of it was with .223s 308s ect and with 45acps and 40sw and 9mms. Now if this was an argument about the effects of rifle bullets at high velocity id bow out to you and if you were comparing 9mm ball to 45 ball i would be the first to jump in and tell you how superior the 45 was in that configuration. If we were even talking the differnce in wound cavitys and effect that velocity plays in shooting a live target id be all ears if you gave your opinion. Personaly i think you had a very interesting job. I find myself about disecting every animal i shoot to check out what my loads do and even keep notes on it although my wife thinks im a bit sick for doing it. I guess my point in this whole argument is taking both guns as a cast bullet launching platform and taking deer sized game as the target both have more then enough power to get it done and to me its almost like saying that a 458lott is a better killer of deer then a 458 mag. Either has plenty of power to shoot lenghtwize though an animal and producing a large wound channel doing it. Like bass hit on theres to many other variables that mean more then the small increase in bullet diameter. Velocity, bullet weight and meplat for some. Like he also said those who claim the 45 is as powerful are hotrodding pressures way above what is standard for the round. Nothing wrong with that, i do it myself all the time and its more then safe in a proper gun. Like he also hinted at the 44 mag user can use the same trick. Look at some of taffins work with redhawks. Ive personaly took 44 mag redhawks within spitting range of 454 loads. Is it safe, well i havent hurt a gun or myself yet doing it. Now if you took a 5 shot 45 colt blackhawk or redhawk you could probably beat them but i doubt you could do it safely in a 6 shot. Bottom line though is these arent the loads the average guy puts in his blackhawk or redhawk to hunt deer with anyway at least not to hunt deer. Gunny I havent studied the effect of bullets on cadavors or even horses (with one exception) i havent even sat with measuring tools and exactly measured wound cavitys between deer shot with 44 and 45s. But i have shot a bunch of animals with them and will stand behind the statement that if you had a neutral observer watch you shoot 20 deer with both the 44 and 45 using 300 grain hardcast bullets at 1200 fps he would not be able to tell you which deer was hit by which gun. Again to me its like comparing a 270 to a 280. Im a big fan of the 280 and dont have much use for a 270 but would be the first to tell you no 100lb deer is going to know the differnce in which hit it.

[Ed K]

Without a lot of words or attempting to sway this discussion in either direction I would submit the following: Given the variation in ammunition, firearm, distance to target, animal size, animal age, weight, sex, general health, shot placement, environment and probably more there are too many variables to draw conclusion based solely upon even one or two hundred kills. If all those variables could be quantified in each instance there would be no two alike.

[Lloyd Smale]

Amen!
Without a lot of words or attempting to sway this discussion in either direction I would submit the following: Given the variation in ammunition, firearm, distance to target, animal size, animal age, weight, sex, general health, shot placement, environment and probably more there are too many variables to draw conclusion based solely upon even one or two hundred kills. If all those variables could be quantified in each instance there would be no two alike.

[pmeisel]

Betcha any deer I hit in the lungs at 60 yards is dead with either one of 'em. Venison won't taste different either.

[Whitworth]

Master Sargent I have respect for you to believe it or not. You served your country for many years and im sure some of the studies you did helped the soldiers in the field. The only thing im going to questioin is in all the testing you did for the army i would have to doubt that much of it was done with hard cast 44 and 45 colt bullets.


Dang, Lloyd, as a former Marine, we get a little touchy about cross referencing the Marine Corps with the Army! :kidding:

For some reason folks will readily concede that a move up in diameter -- all else being equal like the same percentage of meplat size and an increase in weight in proportion to the smaller cartridge and the same velocity, is a good thing and that with good placement (I don't know why this always comes up as you always need to place your shots well), the bigger bullet will do more. Handgun hunters in particular are aware of this FACT. You get a bigger hole, period. That said, for some unknown reason to me, proponents of the .44 mag -- or the .429 mag as I like to call it, want to suspend this reality when comparing their pet cartridge with the old .45 Colt. The difference is noticeable in the way they perform. The same people who deny the difference between the .429 and the .45 will admit that moving from the .45 to the .475 is significant. Why is it significant in one case and not the other?? I'm confused, please explain.

I don't have as much handgun hunting experience as some here, but I have plenty more than many. I have taken some fairly large game as well. I live in the south and get to kill hogs (not to mention deer in two states every winter) regularly. I have hunted hogs 6 times already this year (much to the chagrin of my wife), and use those opportunities to test calibers, loads, and bullets. Maybe my power of observation is better than some, but to deny that the .45 is more effective on game makes no sense to me.

Master Guns, welcome to the site and Semper Fi -- play or fry!

[theperfessor]

Not to be critical of the information involved but all caps is shouting and a lack of paragraphs make long posts unreadable. Just saying...

[Lloyd Smale]

My appolgies to the marine corps if that offended. Next we will have an argument as to if a Marine shooting the same gun in the same place at the same target is more deadly ;). Whitworth i am one of the guys that will claim the 475 and 500 are a bit more effective on really large game but to me its more of there ability to push those big slugs deap and through bone that does it more then the size of the bullet. Compare the normal 250 and 255 grain bullets most shoot in the 44 and 45 they are a big step up in performance. Bottom line is i had even my 500 linebaugh fail miserably on buffalo due to poor bullet selection. Load light for caliber bullets in a 475 or 500 and they dont kill as well as a 44 or 45 and sometimes do much worse on really large game. I thought this was more about effectiveness on deer sized game and in that situation i stand behind the fact that no deer can tell the differnce. As a matter of fact a couple of the quickest kills ive seen with a handgun on deer were with 200 grain half jacketed bullets in the 41 mag. Hit them in the chest and they usually go down. Would i call it the best load going for deer hunting. Not a chance and again this is a cast bullet fourm and cast bullet loads are what we are comparing. By the way paragraphs smaragraphs!! this isnt english class its a bunch of gun shooting animal killing redneck good old boys last i looked.

[ole 5 hole group]

Well Lloyd, you’re a stubborn ole coot like most of us and there’s no doubt in my mind that you’ll just keep on taking a beating holding on to your .429 beliefs, based on your experiences.

Maybe you could look at it this way: The deer is too damn dumb to know the difference whether a .429 bullit smacked him or if it was a .452 bullit but his internal tissues probably can tell the difference. With that said, some deer and larger game sometimes just don’t have the good sense to react in a manner to show us what their heart & lungs are telling them.

[Lloyd Smale]

stubborn? me! guilty as charged. Id argue some more as i do love doing it but im about to head out the door to go and kill some more deer! Rain let up and the sun came out and theres brown to put down!

[donjose]

Originally Posted by MasterGunnerySergeantThe .45 is a superior stopper to the .44 in a handgun out to about 75 yards. Beyond that the 44 starts to close the gap.

Makes no since that the 44 would be closing the gap with a smaller hole in the animal.
What happened to the 17% more lung damage?
Remember you cant pound a rail road spike with a tack hammer right?


Jason

[jwp475]

Without a lot of words or attempting to sway this discussion in either direction I would submit the following: Given the variation in ammunition, firearm, distance to target, animal size, animal age, weight, sex, general health, shot placement, environment and probably more there are too many variables to draw conclusion based solely upon even one or two hundred kills. If all those variables could be quantified in each instance there would be no two alike.



From Hatchers note book through the Thompson La-guard tests to the present (Dr. Martin Fackler) former head of the Army's wound ballistics Lab and currently President of the International Wound Ballistics Assoc. the thyme is and has been the same, the bigger bore handgun ALWAYS has the advantage.

[btroj]

In the end, either works well. I have a feeling the shooter's ability to hit well without he gun in question is more important than whether it is a 44 or 45. Put the bullet where it belongs and all is well, gut shoot the animal with either and it will be an ugly situation.
Personally, I shoot my SRH 44 mag better than I do my BH 45 colt so I would prefer to hunt with the 44 mag. The 45 BH is a much better gun to carry as a backup while hunting with a rifle so that is what I use it for.
Nobody here will convince me that either cartridge is inherently better or worse. They both work. Just learn to shoot which ever you want to buy and all will be fine.
Why is everything a ford/chevy argument?

[Ed K]

From Hatchers note book through the Thompson La-guard tests to the present (Dr. Martin Fackler) former head of the Army's wound ballistics Lab and currently President of the International Wound Ballistics Assoc. the thyme is and has been the same, the bigger bore handgun ALWAYS has the advantage.

OK - but what does that have to do with my comment which was basically: you can't prove squat with 100-200 kills in field conditions.

[Lloyd Smale]

well we only killed one deer tonight and it was with the 2506 so i guess no answers were found tonight.

[jwp475]

OK - but what does that have to do with my comment which was basically: you can't prove squat with 100-200 kills in field conditions.

WOW, the advantage is with the larger bore, seems simple to me... How much advantage is difficult to quantify because of the physical and physiological variables from animal to animal. The facdt remains that the larger bore has the advantage in field conditions

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

jwp475 has also shot alot of game with handguns and believe it or not i respect his opinion. I may not agree with everything he says but he got his opionion the right way by shooting game animals. Like i tried to say eailer there is just to many variables like bullet weight, velocity, meplat size, alloy, and shot placement to answer this question with definate answer. Both rounds will kill any game animal alive with a proper bullet in the proper spot and ill stand behind my opinion that no animal is going to know the differnce in which hit him. Master Sargent I have respect for you to believe it or not. You served your country for many years and im sure some of the studies you did helped the soldiers in the field. The only thing im going to questioin is in all the testing you did for the army i would have to doubt that much of it was done with hard cast 44 and 45 colt bullets. Im sure most of it was with .223s 308s ect and with 45acps and 40sw and 9mms. Now if this was an argument about the effects of rifle bullets at high velocity id bow out to you and if you were comparing 9mm ball to 45 ball i would be the first to jump in and tell you how superior the 45 was in that configuration. If we were even talking the differnce in wound cavitys and effect that velocity plays in shooting a live target id be all ears if you gave your opinion. Personaly i think you had a very interesting job. I find myself about disecting every animal i shoot to check out what my loads do and even keep notes on it although my wife thinks im a bit sick for doing it. I guess my point in this whole argument is taking both guns as a cast bullet launching platform and taking deer sized game as the target both have more then enough power to get it done and to me its almost like saying that a 458lott is a better killer of deer then a 458 mag. Either has plenty of power to shoot lenghtwize though an animal and producing a large wound channel doing it. Like bass hit on theres to many other variables that mean more then the small increase in bullet diameter. Velocity, bullet weight and meplat for some. Like he also said those who claim the 45 is as powerful are hotrodding pressures way above what is standard for the round. Nothing wrong with that, i do it myself all the time and its more then safe in a proper gun. Like he also hinted at the 44 mag user can use the same trick. Look at some of taffins work with redhawks. Ive personaly took 44 mag redhawks within spitting range of 454 loads. Is it safe, well i havent hurt a gun or myself yet doing it. Now if you took a 5 shot 45 colt blackhawk or redhawk you could probably beat them but i doubt you could do it safely in a 6 shot. Bottom line though is these arent the loads the average guy puts in his blackhawk or redhawk to hunt deer with anyway at least not to hunt deer. Gunny I havent studied the effect of bullets on cadavors or even horses (with one exception) i havent even sat with measuring tools and exactly measured wound cavitys between deer shot with 44 and 45s. But i have shot a bunch of animals with them and will stand behind the statement that if you had a neutral observer watch you shoot 20 deer with both the 44 and 45 using 300 grain hardcast bullets at 1200 fps he would not be able to tell you which deer was hit by which gun. Again to me its like comparing a 270 to a 280. Im a big fan of the 280 and dont have much use for a 270 but would be the first to tell you no 100lb deer is going to know the differnce in which hit it.

Llyod,

Friend. We tested nearly every non-obsolete available cartridge, with projectiles in every conceivable material including porcelain, depleted uranium and dozens of polymers.

The US in not a signatory to the Hague Convention of 1899 but voluntarily abides by the standards of conventional weapons and ammunition, except the prohibition on aerial bombing – go figure. Weapons and ammunition are selected based on many factors that do not lend to incapacitation efficiency. Namely, NATO standardization, rates of fire, magazine capacity, weight etc., To understand how to use those weapons more effectively it’s important to understand what effects incapacitation and develop methods to inflict similar wounds with the tools you have.

Man this is a tough place, I got demoted to Master Sergeant and smacked back to Gunnery Sergeant in the space of one paragraph. By Monday morning I’ll be a civilian. lol

[Lloyd Smale]

Youll have to excuse me master gunny i was a sailor and am not exactly up on the corps rate structure. But believe this! you are due your proper title. Anyone that made master gunny deserves his due respect. You should be very proud of what you accomplished and i as a greatful american salute you. thanks to guys like you we can have these chicken **** arguments that in the big picture mean absoultely nothing.

[Ed K]

jwp475 let's back up a little...

It was my not my intention to indicate a cal preference or make a statement concerning the 44/45 and their relative effectiveness except to offer that likely no conclusion could be drawn from actual field observations. Did you read that differently?

I understand your original reply to be essentially "of course the larger cal is more effective" which is something I have no argument with. I simply maintain one can not conclusively determine that based on field observations - regardless of what one may think.

I don't see that your initial reply even addresses my assertion - let alone rebut. If you want to counter "I believe I can effectively draw conclusions on the superior killing power of the 45 over the 44 based on my field observations" we should continue. Otherwise we are shadow boxing...

[TCLouis]

BUT

one can always find loaded 44 Mag ammo and 45 Long Colt ammo can be a bit spotty at best on the shelves.

Ya knew the "BUT" had to be in there somewhere didn't you?

[donjose]

I am still wondering why the 44 close the gap after 75 yards?



Jason

[Whitworth]

I am still wondering why the 44 close the gap after 75 yards?



Jason


It doesn't in my experience. Heavy bullets at moderate velocity tend to carry their speed longer.

[pmeisel]

At least I haven't read a doggone thing about a Glock in 4 pages!

[ole 5 hole group]

When I saw that statement I took it as the 0.429 bullit having the same weight, shape & velocity out the barrel starts to catch up to the killing power (for lack of a better term) of the 0.452 bullit at and after 75 yards because it’s not pushing as much air, affording the 0.429 bullit to maintain its velocity better than the 0.452. I have no clue as to how far you would have to shoot in order for the 44 to match the killing power of the 45 Colt.

Lloyd, I sympathize with you having a lousy night and reverting to using a rifle but this is by no means a chicken**** thread, as one MUST understand that ole Elmer put the crown on the 44 relative to mid-bore revolvers and Linebaugh abruptly removed it and placed it squarely on the 45 Colt, where it belongs. Convincing everyone of this fact is extremely difficult and that’s the reason for these types of threads. Keep firing away Master Gunny, as Lloyd is not about to give up yet.

[Whitworth]

The point I was making is that when you launch a bullet faster, they tend to scrub speed faster. Launch a heavy bullet at moderate velocity and while they too scrub off speed, they tend to maintain it longer and lose less on the other end. The drop I experince at 200 yards with my .475 launching 420 grain bullets at 1,350 fps at the muzzle is less than the drop I experience from my .454 pushing a lighter bullet at a much higher velocity. I know this is over simplified, but this is what I have observed.

[TomAM]

Been looking at the Ruger 45 or 44 Super Blackhawk Hunter, not sure which way to go.I am reloading and will be starting to cast soon, want to get good accurate 100 yard shots will be putting a Ultra Dot on it.Any thoughts



Thank You
Jason

Get the 44. Your stated criterion was accuracy, not power, and it's far easier to make accurate 44 loads. The 45 Colt has tapered chambers, and ammo sized with carbide dies which produce straight-walled loads rattles around in the chambers and groups poorly. Even using most lube type sizing dies for the 45 produces ammo that fits badly.

[geargnasher]

I'm still hung up on the comment that neither the .44 Magnum or the .45 Colt are effective revolver hunting cartridges out to 100 yards. If you can't shoot a handgun well enough to hunt whitetail at that range, that's ok. But don't tell me it's the cartridge's fault or the Revolver's.

Gear

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

I am still wondering why the 44 close the gap after 75 yards?



Jason

It would seem in eagerness to construct a polemic, you have drooled the first thought that popped to mind out on your shirt. Begin by reading my comment a little more rigorously and the answer is obvious.

Notice my comments begin with “generally speaking”, usually understood to mean ‘commonly or widely’, ignoring either end of the extreme. I do not load hot load .45LC. I’m no expert in internal ballistics, so take it for what it’s worth when I say I don’t recommend hot loading a .45LC. It’s completely unnecessary if you use the weapon as it’s designed to be used. Use the right tool for the job (tack hammer / railroad spike analogy). Need to drive a .45 cal bullet at .45 Win Mag velocities? Buy a 45 Win Mag. If you want the ability to shoot minute of angle accuracy at 100 yards and create incapacitating wounds you need a rifle. You can’t and shouldn’t attempt to compensate for poor gun choice at the loading bench.

Whitworth is quite right. Heavy bullets at moderate velocities tend to retain more velocity down range. Momentum is a conserved property, obviously. Assuming .44 and .45 projectiles of equal mass leave the muzzle at the same velocity, the effect of atmospheric drag may be considered negligible. In this scenario the .44 would in fact never close the gap in terms of terminal ballistics.

Such is not the case in “general” terms. 44’s are normally loaded to higher velocities than 45’s in both factory ammunition and by the average hand loader.

Velocity does not kill or incapacitate, for that matter neither does energy. Permanent cavitation is the property that kills and/or incapacitates. That being said, there is a minimum threshold of velocity required to overcome the tensile strength of tissue and create satisfactory penetration. Of two projectiles with equal mass, the one beginning it’s trajectory it higher velocity will have more velocity at distance d, notwithstanding the effects of drag.

In factory ammunition and reasonable hand loads, beginning at about 75 yards, the .45LC exhibits a measurable decrease in depth of penetration of tissue. Owing to the sum of lower initial velocity, velocity shed to penetrate, the fluid drag of tissue and some friction.

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[MasterGunnerySergeant]

I'm still hung up on the comment that neither the .44 Magnum or the .45 Colt are effective revolver hunting cartridges out to 100 yards. If you can't shoot a handgun well enough to hunt whitetail at that range, that's ok. But don't tell me it's the cartridge's fault or the Revolver's.

Gear

Who said that?

[9.3X62AL]

I didn't say it, Gear--but I won't try a shot on a fine game animal past 60 yards with an iron-sighted handgun. I've done the "Paper Plate Test" bit, and that is my outer limit. I'm sure that both calibers are a lot more capable than I am past that distance, but ANY limit is THE Limit in reality.

[donjose]

Did I miss something who is Whitlock?

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Did I miss something who is Whitlock?

Whitlock is the maiden name of my daughter in law, it's hard wired into my consciousness. Read Whitworth

[jwp475]

I'm still hung up on the comment that neither the .44 Magnum or the .45 Colt are effective revolver hunting cartridges out to 100 yards. If you can't shoot a handgun well enough to hunt whitetail at that range, that's ok. But don't tell me it's the cartridge's fault or the Revolver's.

Gear



My 2 longest kills with a revolver were a Carribou at aproximately 150 yards and a pig at 218 lasered yards both with the 45 Colt. The Caribou was taken with a 310 grain LFN and the pig with a 325 grain LFN. The bullets in both cases exited the respective animals

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

My 2 longest kills with a revolver were a Carribou at aproximately 150 yards and a pig at 218 lasered yards both with the 45 Colt. The Caribou was taken with a 310 grain LFN and the pig with a 325 grain LFN. The bullets in both cases exited the respective animals

Spoken like a man who consumnes beer by the bucket and meat by the quarter animal :). Well done.

[9.3X62AL]

Spoken like a man who consumnes beer by the bucket and meat by the quarter animal :). Well done.

Agreed. VERY FINE HANDGUNNING, indeed!

[Lloyd Smale]

Master gunny you just had to drag me back into this. Are you saying velocity doesnt and sectional density dont matter. I do a hell of alot of long range shooting and have noticed myself (Now this is longer then a 100 yards) that a simular weight and design 44 bullet at the same velocity will shoot flatter then a 45. Not dramaticaly but enough to notice. Again i dont have math equations to back this up just my own experience.

Also you stated that you dont believe in hot rodding the 45 colt. So in that context im taking it your running the 45 colt at under a 1000 fps with a 255 bullet as anything more is definately hotroding it. Now ive allways been one that said that a 250 grain cast bullet at 900-1000 fps will do alot of killing and ill go right back to my main 45/44 arguement that dead is dead but i definately have to say that in my experiences with deer hunt with both that 1200-1300 fps loads do do more damage and create much larger wound cavitys at any range. So how then could you possibly believe that the 45 colt is a better killer then the 44 mag. The 44 mag is routinely loaded with 250s at 1300 and isnt being hot rodded a bit at those levels. Like for like loads there very much equal but comparing standard loads the 44 mag has it all over the 45 colt and a better comparison would be between the 45 colt and the 44 special.

Even John hot rods 45 colts ie his 5 shot guns that really push the envelope. Even his milder 45 colt loads in the smiths are way above factor loads. I certainly have no qualms about hot rodding 45s. Ive done it for over 20 years and have done it at levels that even John, although he shoots, wont put in print. To me thats the real beauty in a 45 colt. If you really stand on it with heavy bullets it is then and probably only then that you get any kind of advantage over the 44 on game.

I havent done the scientific pentration testing youve done but have done of ton of back yard penetration testing of about anything that will throw a cast bullet and in most handguns about 1300 to 1350 fps is about it for velocity before penetration suffers and even then a perfect alloy is needed. Now a 45 colt will push a 300-320 grain bullet to those speeds and the 44 mag is limited to about 1200. The differnces in wound cavitys (in our medium) is dramatic between a 1300 fps load and say a 1100 fps load. In most case the 1100 fps load will give all the penetration your going to get but 1200-1300 will usually get about the same with a bigger wound cavity.

Now that all been said i will admit this. 99 percent of my handgun hunting even with the 475 and 500s are with loads that run about 1100 fps maybe 1200. Why? because like arguing which is better the 44 or 45 those loads kill things just as dead and dead is dead. I find myself practicing more with loads that are at that level because there actually fun to shoot. I may be reading your post wrong but if youve studied wounds caused by bullets you must know that velocity does matter to some extent. I know alot of handgun hunters and some that have hunted about every game animal on the planet and I KNOW that not a one of them would tackle dangerous game with a 45 colt loaded to factory levels at any range. I also dont know one of them that would pack up there stuff and go home if there 45 colt loaded with 300s at 1200 didnt show up and they had to use a 44 shooting a simular load. The popularity of the 45 colt really boomed when John and a few others like wayne baker discovered that it could be safely loaded to equal a 44 mag in a good gun and could even beat it in a gun SPECIFICALY made to do it (ie a 5 shot) . Not a factory gun (unless you consider a fa a factory gun). They knew that in a factory ruger they could push the same weight bullet to within a 100fps or so of a 44 mag and that the slighly larger bullet would close the gap and make them about equal in the field.

I have pushed 45 colts to levels that would probably make most guys hair stand up in a ruger 6 shot. I have never been hurt doing it and the only damage was one ruger vaquero that was shot loose after many many rounds. At those levels no doubt i was shooting a gun that was more powerful then anything listed for a 44 mag. Ive done the same in 44 mag redhawks but that took even more pressue and to be honest at the levels needed to run with the 45 colt crazy loads even i was a bit nervous. Do these loads kill better then standard 45 colt loads. YOU BET THEY DO! Especially on thin skinned animals like deer. Would i hunt dangerous game with them? NOPE. For that i prefer the reliable pentration and adequate wound channel a 1100-1200 fps load gives me. Now change the bullet to a punch bullet and it all changes. Weve done extensive testing with punch bullets and in just about every case velocity with them means more penetration. If you want to see wound channels that are large and long push a punch bullet to 1500 fps.

If velocity doesnt fit into the equation anywhere i guess wed all be hunting with 3220s and 3030s and handgun developement would have stopped at the 45 colt. Also i dont know of to many dangerous game guides that wont tell you a 458 lott or 460 weatherby isnt a better stopper then a 458 mag.

Im not a big fan of the 454. I do have one and have shot some game with it and would be the first to tell you that it puts a bigger smack on deer with a 320 at 1500 fps any 6 shot 44 mag or 45 colt load will. If a guy doesnt believe that hes just not tried it.

I guess ive rambled on long enough here and hope i didnt get to far off topic and would appreciate knowing if your experiences with testing mirrored these opinions.


It would seem in eagerness to construct a polemic, you have drooled the first thought that popped to mind out on your shirt. Begin by reading my comment a little more rigorously and the answer is obvious.

Notice my comments begin with “generally speaking”, usually understood to mean ‘commonly or widely’, ignoring either end of the extreme. I do not load hot load .45LC. I’m no expert in internal ballistics, so take it for what it’s worth when I say I don’t recommend hot loading a .45LC. It’s completely unnecessary if you use the weapon as it’s designed to be used. Use the right tool for the job (tack hammer / railroad spike analogy). Need to drive a .45 cal bullet at .45 Win Mag velocities? Buy a 45 Win Mag. If you want the ability to shoot minute of angle accuracy at 100 yards and create incapacitating wounds you need a rifle. You can’t and shouldn’t attempt to compensate for poor gun choice at the loading bench.

Whitworth is quite right. Heavy bullets at moderate velocities tend to retain more velocity down range. Momentum is a conserved property, obviously. Assuming .44 and .45 projectiles of equal mass leave the muzzle at the same velocity, the effect of atmospheric drag may be considered negligible. In this scenario the .44 would in fact never close the gap in terms of terminal ballistics.

Such is not the case in “general” terms. 44’s are normally loaded to higher velocities than 45’s in both factory ammunition and by the average hand loader.

Velocity does not kill or incapacitate, for that matter neither does energy. Permanent cavitation is the property that kills and/or incapacitates. That being said, there is a minimum threshold of velocity required to overcome the tensile strength of tissue and create satisfactory penetration. Of two projectiles with equal mass, the one beginning it’s trajectory it higher velocity will have more velocity at distance d, notwithstanding the effects of drag.

In factory ammunition and reasonable hand loads, beginning at about 75 yards, the .45LC exhibits a measurable decrease in depth of penetration of tissue. Owing to the sum of lower initial velocity, velocity shed to penetrate, the fluid drag of tissue and some friction.

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[wiljen]

The need for being polite has been pointed out once before. It is obvious we have some very divergent thoughts on this matter and neither side is likely to have an epiphany and see the light of the other. Please keep it civil.

[jwp475]

If you really stand on it with heavy bullets it is then and probably only then that you get any kind of advantage over the 44 on game.




Ah Ha, so we do agree....:holysheep

[MakeMineA10mm]

donjose,
I'm a 44 guy, because my mentor was. Once I went down that path, I was hooked, but this is emotional, possibly psychological, and has nothing to do with ballistics.

Truth be told, there is ONE difference between the 45 and 44: If you do NOT reload, the 44 is the superior choice, because you can get a wide range of high-performance ammo for it virtually anywhere ammo is sold; whereas with the 45, you're trapped with cowboy loads. However, since you said you cast and reload, this does not apply. Therefore, the only difference between the 44 and 45 for you is which one SOUNDS better to your ear.

The whole argument between the 44 and 45, both handloaded to their utmost potential, is like the argument between alligator tail and frog legs, tastes great and less filling, the 444 Marlin and the 45-70, Ford and Chevy, and any other argument you can think of where the quantitative differences are virtually NIL.

The bottom line is that a 300gr 45 bullet at 1200fps is marginally more powerful than a 270gr 44 bullet at 1200fps. If we could shoot the exact same animal, in the exact same spot, under the exact same conditions with both loads, he'll run off 240 yards with the 45 shot and 255 yards with the 44. BIG DEAL! I suggest we stop arguing about stuff that doesn't amount to a pinch of beans, and get back to something more useful, like which is better, the WFN or the SWC... :mrgreen:

[Potsy]

I bought a .45 Colt because all my buddies had .44's (Argue with that!).

[jwp475]

I've hunted with both the 45 and 44 and IMHO&E the wider frontal area of the 45 definitely is detectable in the field.

The pig that I killed at 218 yards was with the Buffalo Bore 325 grain LFN that chrono'ed 1400 FPS out of my 6" 45 Colt Ruger Bisley. The Caribou that I took at about 150 yards was with an LBT LFN cast from pure Wheekl Weights chrono'ed at 1240 FPS from a 5 1/2" barreled Ruger Bisley.

If one observes closely one can see where the bullet hits and the 45 has more ov'a cave in at the point of impact

[donjose]

Well I do know that speed kills.I dont have alot of deer killing under my belt because I am a predator hunter.I shot over 55 coyotes last season and about 45 hogs.I switched from a 223 to 22-250 and let me tell you that with the 250 they look like they have been hit by lightning the coyotes that is.Now take a 55fmj and load it to the max and hit a hog in the neck and parties over.We opened a few up last year and it looked like an explosion went of in there neck nothing but mush.:lovebooli


Jason

[Whitworth]

Well I do know that speed kills.I dont have alot of deer killing under my belt because I am a predator hunter.I shot over 55 coyotes last season and about 45 hogs.I switched from a 223 to 22-250 and let me tell you that with the 250 they look like they have been hit by lightning the coyotes that is.Now take a 55fmj and load it to the max and hit a hog in the neck and parties over.We opened a few up last year and it looked like an explosion went of in there neck nothing but mush.:lovebooli


Jason

Ah yes, but hit him in the shoulder with that little bullet and it might not even reach the vitals and really piss off the hog......I have seen this happen on numerous ocasions.

[donjose]

I have had less than perfect shots break a shoulder and reach the lungs with this load as well.I havent ever shot one that was over 225 pounds so I cant speak for anything bigger but I was turned on to this load by a man that does nothing but hog hunting and guiding for a living.I know he said from the shooting he has done that it will take a bruiser as well.Correction on the bullet it is a 52 gr. HPBT MatchKing
I had to go look I have 55 fmj on the brain from some 223 loads we use for the kids to plink with.There used to be a Federal factory load for the 250 but i think now they only load that for the 220 Swift.
I always tell people their mileage may very but for me Its worked okay, with that said I always try for a neck shot first.

Here is a small boar from last year me and the kids getting some bacon the 250 in the neck looked like the hammer of thor hit em.
In this case speed kills :)
http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a451/donjoseone/boar.jpg





Jason

[Lloyd Smale]

Please if i wasnt civil in my last post point out where i was rude. Like i said i respect the sargents and jwps opinions on this and like hearing them.
The need for being polite has been pointed out once before. It is obvious we have some very divergent thoughts on this matter and neither side is likely to have an epiphany and see the light of the other. Please keep it civil.

[ole 5 hole group]

I'm sure he's not referring to you Lloyd - if he's hinting about maintaining political correctness, I'm probably the culprit calling you an ole coot - probably should have said sexy senior citizen or something similar.

[donjose]

Maybe you are just rude period.My wife says I am rude and I dont understand why:kidding:

But with that sexy senior citizen comment I am getting worried!
O But wait, maybe this is a dont ask dont tell forum :)


Jason

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Master gunny you just had to drag me back into this. Are you saying velocity doesnt and sectional density dont matter. I do a hell of alot of long range shooting and have noticed myself (Now this is longer then a 100 yards) that a simular weight and design 44 bullet at the same velocity will shoot flatter then a 45. Not dramaticaly but enough to notice. Again i dont have math equations to back this up just my own experience.

Also you stated that you dont believe in hot rodding the 45 colt. So in that context im taking it your running the 45 colt at under a 1000 fps with a 255 bullet as anything more is definately hotroding it. Now ive allways been one that said that a 250 grain cast bullet at 900-1000 fps will do alot of killing and ill go right back to my main 45/44 arguement that dead is dead but i definately have to say that in my experiences with deer hunt with both that 1200-1300 fps loads do do more damage and create much larger wound cavitys at any range. So how then could you possibly believe that the 45 colt is a better killer then the 44 mag. The 44 mag is routinely loaded with 250s at 1300 and isnt being hot rodded a bit at those levels. Like for like loads there very much equal but comparing standard loads the 44 mag has it all over the 45 colt and a better comparison would be between the 45 colt and the 44 special.

Even John hot rods 45 colts ie his 5 shot guns that really push the envelope. Even his milder 45 colt loads in the smiths are way above factor loads. I certainly have no qualms about hot rodding 45s. Ive done it for over 20 years and have done it at levels that even John, although he shoots, wont put in print. To me thats the real beauty in a 45 colt. If you really stand on it with heavy bullets it is then and probably only then that you get any kind of advantage over the 44 on game.

I havent done the scientific pentration testing youve done but have done of ton of back yard penetration testing of about anything that will throw a cast bullet and in most handguns about 1300 to 1350 fps is about it for velocity before penetration suffers and even then a perfect alloy is needed. Now a 45 colt will push a 300-320 grain bullet to those speeds and the 44 mag is limited to about 1200. The differnces in wound cavitys (in our medium) is dramatic between a 1300 fps load and say a 1100 fps load. In most case the 1100 fps load will give all the penetration your going to get but 1200-1300 will usually get about the same with a bigger wound cavity.

Now that all been said i will admit this. 99 percent of my handgun hunting even with the 475 and 500s are with loads that run about 1100 fps maybe 1200. Why? because like arguing which is better the 44 or 45 those loads kill things just as dead and dead is dead. I find myself practicing more with loads that are at that level because there actually fun to shoot. I may be reading your post wrong but if youve studied wounds caused by bullets you must know that velocity does matter to some extent. I know alot of handgun hunters and some that have hunted about every game animal on the planet and I KNOW that not a one of them would tackle dangerous game with a 45 colt loaded to factory levels at any range. I also dont know one of them that would pack up there stuff and go home if there 45 colt loaded with 300s at 1200 didnt show up and they had to use a 44 shooting a simular load. The popularity of the 45 colt really boomed when John and a few others like wayne baker discovered that it could be safely loaded to equal a 44 mag in a good gun and could even beat it in a gun SPECIFICALY made to do it (ie a 5 shot) . Not a factory gun (unless you consider a fa a factory gun). They knew that in a factory ruger they could push the same weight bullet to within a 100fps or so of a 44 mag and that the slighly larger bullet would close the gap and make them about equal in the field.

I have pushed 45 colts to levels that would probably make most guys hair stand up in a ruger 6 shot. I have never been hurt doing it and the only damage was one ruger vaquero that was shot loose after many many rounds. At those levels no doubt i was shooting a gun that was more powerful then anything listed for a 44 mag. Ive done the same in 44 mag redhawks but that took even more pressue and to be honest at the levels needed to run with the 45 colt crazy loads even i was a bit nervous. Do these loads kill better then standard 45 colt loads. YOU BET THEY DO! Especially on thin skinned animals like deer. Would i hunt dangerous game with them? NOPE. For that i prefer the reliable pentration and adequate wound channel a 1100-1200 fps load gives me. Now change the bullet to a punch bullet and it all changes. Weve done extensive testing with punch bullets and in just about every case velocity with them means more penetration. If you want to see wound channels that are large and long push a punch bullet to 1500 fps.

If velocity doesnt fit into the equation anywhere i guess wed all be hunting with 3220s and 3030s and handgun developement would have stopped at the 45 colt. Also i dont know of to many dangerous game guides that wont tell you a 458 lott or 460 weatherby isnt a better stopper then a 458 mag.

Im not a big fan of the 454. I do have one and have shot some game with it and would be the first to tell you that it puts a bigger smack on deer with a 320 at 1500 fps any 6 shot 44 mag or 45 colt load will. If a guy doesnt believe that hes just not tried it.

I guess ive rambled on long enough here and hope i didnt get to far off topic and would appreciate knowing if your experiences with testing mirrored these opinions.

Lloyd,

That's whole fist full of questions! I've just returned from a day of "catch and release", that is to say; catch the smallmouth, remove the fillets and release the rest back into the eco system. And I'm tired.

I'll try to get to this in the morning

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Well I do know that speed kills.I dont have alot of deer killing under my belt because I am a predator hunter.I shot over 55 coyotes last season and about 45 hogs.I switched from a 223 to 22-250 and let me tell you that with the 250 they look like they have been hit by lightning the coyotes that is.Now take a 55fmj and load it to the max and hit a hog in the neck and parties over.We opened a few up last year and it looked like an explosion went of in there neck nothing but mush.:lovebooli


Jason

Apples to oranges Jason. It has little to do with velocity. The rifling of your 22-250 is responsible for the wounds you're seeing. Check the twist on your gun, it's 1 in 14.

The .223 55gr FMJ is a military design. A military (i.e. fully jacketed, pointed, non-expanding) rifle bullet will be destabilised when hitting a soft target and will tumble. This is because its shape moves the centre of gravity of the bullet towards the rear so it wants to fly ass- first. Rifling stabilizes flight , but tussue is 4 orders of magnitude more denser than air so at impact the bullet destabilises and turns over to travel base-first, a process known as tumbling. In so doing it obviously inflicts a far more serious wound than if it carried on flying straight through the body. Incidentally, bullets designed for penetrating heavy game animals like elephant, which need to penetrate very deeply and must therefore not tumble, have long, parallel sides and blunt round noses, just like early military rifle bullets.

The original US Military .223 (5.56mm) 55 grain (3.56g) M193 bullet was notorious for rapid tumbling, but the current NATO 62 grain (4.02g) SS109/M855 bullet is fired from rifles with a much steeper rifling twist (1 turn in 7 inches instead of 1 in 12 and 1 in 14 Vietnam era M-16A's ) and is more stable, to the benefit of long-range accuracy and penetration but at the cost of a slightly slower rate of tumble on impact and smaller permenent cavity. Over the years military ammunition designers have intentionally increased the probability of a bullet tumbling; the British .303 Mk VII bullet had a lightweight tip filler with the weight concentrated towards the rear of the bullet, and the current Russian 5.45mm rifle bullet has a hollow tip.
Top

PS I just saw your correction. the 52 gr MKHP. It's still a lightweight spitzer less than 60gr and 1 in 14 rifling won't stabilize it enough, particularly a longer ranges. The boat tail yeilds a significant increase in stability of flight but will behave exactly the same at impact. I hear there is a 60 gr version available now, can't comment on that one- havent seen it.

For what it's worth, some of the nastiest wounds I've ever seen were created by .223's. Brutal!!

[Lloyd Smale]

dont you worry one bit about offending me. Ive allways been one who says what i believe and doesnt sugar coat anything and one thing ive learned is if your going to be that way you need to also take it in return. A little humorus name calling and disagreeing with opinions never hurt a soul. Its guys that w dislike someone and go out of there way to dissagree with everything they say just to make them look bad that needs to be moderated.
I'm sure he's not referring to you Lloyd - if he's hinting about maintaining political correctness, I'm probably the culprit calling you an ole coot - probably should have said sexy senior citizen or something similar.

[Lloyd Smale]

For what it's worth, some of the nastiest wounds I've ever seen were created by .223's. Brutal!

I too have seen some nasty results with the 223 but ive found it not even in the same ball park as wounds ive seen on deer and coyotes using 87s in the 257 weatherby or even 50s in the 220 swift. Again nothing scientific and i havent shot 200 animals with each in the exact same circumstances

[donjose]

Yea your right on wound damage but my rifle is 1/12 twist savage, So I have know problems on the 52 grain load in the 22-250.Lloyd you are right a man around here has a 257 weatherby and he blows the snot out of everything he hits sounds like a golf club hitting a watermelon when they hit the target!!

Jason

[cottonstalk]

donjose,for what its worth I used the 44mag for the better part of my life,and a few years ago I got a 45colt,and since then the mag hasn't seen the light of day.Is there an earth shattering difference?No but what I have been fortunate to take I have seen a difference.Maybe not in knockdown,not in distance traveled,but in physical reaction.It appears however small to cause a shutter,that the mag never did.Now I ain't no big killer like jwp and Lloyd,and I haven't taken as many different species,but I have seen alot of deer and bear taken with 44s and a few of each with the 45.Maybe when my numbers increase with the 45 there won't be a difference but for now I'll take what ,others say I think ,I am seeing or whats all in my head.

[odis]

I remember back in the 80s after reading the articles written by Seyfreid about 45 colt load development that maybe the 44 mag. might not even exsist if Elmer had rugers and sevilles along with federal brass to play with. I think the world would be much more boring. I own two of each and like em a lot. I say own both chamberings.

[Lloyd Smale]

well just to be fair I took the montado out last night and shot a 100 lb doe with it. Load was a 255 swc and 9..5 grains of herco. Have to admit the deer did die!!! Hit behind the sholder at 40 yards and ran about 60 steps and piled up stone dead. Typical relvolver kill. Also shot two at 200 and 275 with the 257 weatherby both bang flop! Now theres a deer killing sob! The one at 275 was hit about a foot to far back and still dropped in her tracks.

[donjose]

What model rifle do you have for the 257



Jason

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've hunted with both the 45 and 44 and IMHO&E the wider frontal area of the 45 definitely is detectable in the field.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but how do you quantifiably verify this? Unless you shoot the identical animal under the same circumstances again (which you can't, because you've killed it already), this is merely an assertion, not a conclusion.

I happen to agree with you (though it sounds like we may differ ever so slightly regarding the degree of difference), but the fact of the matter is there is no 100% scientifically-proved, be-all, end-all conclusive "Law of Incapacitation" in spite of over 100 years of studies and theories at the expense of millions of dollars or all the speculation, theories, and cogitations we do here.

That's why I said earlier we may as well argue about WFNs vs SWCs or "tastes great" vs "less filling"... We'll get just as far on a conclusion there as we will in this thread. These questions are senseless to the degree they get taken.

There's 4.5% difference in bore area between a 44 and 45. Using bullets of equal construction, sectional density, and velocity (which both calibers are capable of safely and to make the comparison fair and valid), THATS how much difference there is...

[white eagle]

its simple get one for each hand a right and a left :redneck:

[Dale53]

Makeminea 10mm;

>>>There's 4.5% difference in bore area between a 44 and 45. Using bullets of equal construction, sectional density, and velocity (which both calibers are capable of safely and to make the comparison fair and valid), THATS how much difference there is...<<<

I can't agree with you more.

However, if you use the original SAA Colt frame, THEN the .44 Special is superior to the .45 Colt. I prefer carrying the mid-frame Ruger .44 Lipsey Special to my Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertible, so I don't try to compare these two (the Ruger .45 Colt can be loaded to exceed the .44 Special, as we all know).

If you don't limit yourself to frame size, then the large frame Rugers in .45 Colt are equal or a bit better than the .44 Magnum. On the other hand, enough is enough, and you can't get away from that FACT, as I am sure most would agree.

I have all three calibers (.44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt) in a variety of handguns and any of the three, properly loaded are ALL superior handguns for deer, hogs, and black bear hunting. They all, for me, have just about the right balance of power, convenience, portability and game killing efficiency. Any difference in the field we can just tally up to "nitpicking"...

Dale53
__________________

[9.3X62AL]

I have all three calibers (.44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt) in a variety of handguns and any of the three, properly loaded are ALL superior handguns for deer, hogs, and black bear hunting. They all, for me, have just about the right balance of power, convenience, portability and game killing efficiency. Any difference in the field we can just tally up to "nitpicking"...

Dale53
__________________

That's a pretty succinct summation, and a close approximation to my views on the question.

[Dale53]

Thank you, AL. I appreciate the comments.

Dale53

[MakeMineA10mm]

Makeminea 10mm;

>>>There's 4.5% difference in bore area between a 44 and 45. Using bullets of equal construction, sectional density, and velocity (which both calibers are capable of safely and to make the comparison fair and valid), THATS how much difference there is...<<<

I can't agree with you more.

However, if you use the original SAA Colt frame, THEN the .44 Special is superior to the .45 Colt. I prefer carrying the mid-frame Ruger .44 Lipsey Special to my Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertible, so I don't try to compare these two (the Ruger .45 Colt can be loaded to exceed the .44 Special, as we all know).

If you don't limit yourself to frame size, then the large frame Rugers in .45 Colt are equal or a bit better than the .44 Magnum. On the other hand, enough is enough, and you can't get away from that FACT, as I am sure most would agree.

I have all three calibers (.44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt) in a variety of handguns and any of the three, properly loaded are ALL superior handguns for deer, hogs, and black bear hunting. They all, for me, have just about the right balance of power, convenience, portability and game killing efficiency. Any difference in the field we can just tally up to "nitpicking"...

Dale53
__________________

Dale, I agree with you, too, 100%. My only difference is that the only 45s I have are autos. I just got to the point of deciding that I didn't want to add another caliber of dies, bullets, cases, etc., as I could do everything with what I had. So, 44 Spls and 44 Mags (and 44 Russians) are in the stable, but not 45 Colts. I've fired them quite a bit, and even have a box or two of ammo here, but no shootin' iron in 45 Colt in the stable.

Your point about the different frame-sizes is very well taken, but the OP was choosing between large-frame pistols anyway...


Been looking at the Ruger 45 or 44 Super Blackhawk Hunter, not sure which way to go.I am reloading and will be starting to cast soon, want to get good accurate 100 yard shots will be putting a Ultra Dot on it.Any thoughts

Thank You
Jason

So, my original thought is still my opinion. If he was NOT a reloader, the 44 Mag is the way to go. Since he IS a reloader (and soon to be caster), the only difference (other than that 4.5% which is probably not discernable in the field) is recoil and what makes him happier.

If I was really energetic, I'd figure the difference in recoil between the 44 Mag and 45 Colt with heavy loads that are COMPARABLE (meaning same sectional density and same velocity), in the guns the OP listed and show that comparison too. My guess is that the difference in recoil will be around 8% in favor of the 44 Mag (lighter recoil), while it only gives up 4.5% frontal area...

As fun as that would be, I'd still not consider this to be a big deal. If you can shoot a full-power 44 Mag, I doubt you'll have trouble with a full-power 45... So again, the difference is inconsequential.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Am I missing something?

Ruger's site only shows the Super Blackhawk Hunter as 44 Mag unless you get the distributers special, then it is . . . 41 Mag . . . http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelSuperBlackhawkHunter/models.html

And the only way to get a 45 is the Vaquero . . . in a single action, unless they use to make it, and have discontinued it? Now the Redhawk is a different story.

Seems strange . . .

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

There's 4.5% difference in bore area between a 44 and 45. Using bullets of equal construction, sectional density, and velocity (which both calibers are capable of safely and to make the comparison fair and valid), THATS how much difference there is...

That doesn’t sound like much difference, but it really depends on the frame of reference. Suppose a hospital announced to the world that they only dropped 4.5% of the babies they deliver on their heads. It’s very small compared to the number of babies they don’t drop, right? At any rate it isn’t an accurate representation of the difference, mathematically speaking. IN SPITE OF THE CAPITAL LETTERS.

Folks, this is middle school geometry for Pete's sake. We all have opinions, and quite frankly I don't care if you want to shoot deer with a rail gun that fires Bobby Sherman and Iron Butterfly LP's. But opinions don't trump physics, mechanics or elementary geometry for that matter.

A gun-shot wound isn’t two dimensional like a ‘Twister Spot’. We have deal with penetration depth, in geometry it’s called height, h .

GSW are cylinders. The margins of the wound are measured in circumference (pi*r*h ) + (2*pi*r^2) … add (pi*r*h ) for an exit wound. Plug in the numbers, do the math and you will see the difference is now approaching 7%. But the true measure of a wound is the volume of the cylinder (2*pi*r^2*h) yielding a difference north of 10%. Medically a 10% larger wound is significant.

Here’s a real world example: A 302 cid Chevrolet has a 4.00” Bore and 3.00” Stroke. A 283 cid Chevrolet has a 3.875” Bore and 3.00” Stroke. A meager 3% but the 302 has 7% more displacement per cylinder. But, but, but the diameter is only 3% larger barely .125" how come the the displacement is difference is nearly 2.5 cubic inches per cyl? ***

BTW I need to make a correction: In an earlier post I made a hasty calculation of the volume difference and came up with 17% there was an arithmetic error in the calculation overstating the difference. It is actually about 11% not 17%. My apologies for the error.

Top

[9.3X62AL]

123DB--

Ruger shows the conventional Blackhawk and the Bisley Blackhawk being available in 45 Colt also. I sure like mine!

The BisHawk also comes in 44 Magnum flavor.

[jh45gun]

Does not take much to kill a whitetail its all bullet placement and either bullet 44 or 45 if you do your job should kill well even the slower 45 loads in a Colt or Colt Clone.

[gon2shoot]

All right, the orignal question was about the 44 or 45.
In a strong Ruger you can pick the one that makes you feel good.

I shot a 7 1/2 SBH for years in long range compitition, it is a heck of a gun, and I still have one. But,the Ruger 45 will handle pressures far above the old single action colt, and the added volume in the case will allow you to fling bigger boolits at higher velosities, at lower pressures than the 44.

The Ruger 45 makes it's mark with heavy boolits at higher velosities. With comparable weight boolits there is very little differance. I carry several 45s because I like to run from the "accepted" 45 loads, to those a little outside the manual spec.

To put it short, buy a 45 and never look back

[pmeisel]

Suppose a hospital announced to the world that they only dropped 4.5% of the babies they deliver on their heads.

Where do you think University of Michigan fans come from?

[jwp475]

I have seen 2 deer laying on the ground and the difference in the entrance hole is obvious to me. Also there is more of a shudder when the larger bore hits the animal with the larger bore. I am talking about the 45 Colt & 44 mag running equal velocities, that is 1250 to 1400 FPS with respective bullets.

Theorize all one wants but I have used them in the field enough to know unequivocally that the 45 is higher on the food chain. Not day light and dark higher, but higher none the less

[jh45gun]

All right, the orignal question was about the 44 or 45.
In a strong Ruger you can pick the one that makes you feel good.

I shot a 7 1/2 SBH for years in long range compitition, it is a heck of a gun, and I still have one. But,the Ruger 45 will handle pressures far above the old single action colt, and the added volume in the case will allow you to fling bigger boolits at higher velosities, at lower pressures than the 44.

The Ruger 45 makes it's mark with heavy boolits at higher velosities. With comparable weight boolits there is very little differance. I carry several 45s because I like to run from the "accepted" 45 loads, to those a little outside the manual spec.

To put it short, buy a 45 and never look back

Your not shooting elephants like I said in the previous post a 45 loaded at Colt or Colt Clone levels will still kill any whitetail. Ya want more power fine but you don't need it for shooting a whitetail.

[Whitworth]

Yes, but is the OP only shooting whitetail?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

123DB--

Ruger shows the conventional Blackhawk and the Bisley Blackhawk being available in 45 Colt also. I sure like mine!

The BisHawk also comes in 44 Magnum flavor.

OK, I see . . .

A New model Blackhawk in blue is available in .45

Or in a New model Bisley . . .

However it is not available in the "Super" line nor the "Hunter" line which is only in the "Super" line unless you want to go "SingleSix, and .22

So . . . IF OP wants a "Hunter" he will have to get a .44Mag, not the .45 . . . if he want's new . . . maybe . . . did Ruger use to make a Hunter in .45?

I originally started looking at this to see the published weight difference between the two . . .

I also do not see any reference that Donjose (OP) had any desire to poke holes in flesh with this gun . . . just that it is accurate at 100 yards . . .

I myself like the .44 or as some have called it a .429 . . . but I shoot .433 boolits in it!

It will still make an owie!

[Whitworth]

It will still make an owie!

Albeit a smaller owie than a .45 Colt......:bigsmyl2:

[ole 5 hole group]

Where do you think University of Michigan fans come from?

Priceless, and you cleverly gave cover to Lloyd at the same time. I think the U.of Minnesota could be included with that bunch.:D

[Lloyd Smale]

Couldnt agree with him more. Im a michigan state fan and cant stand university of michigan or there fans. Now if he would have said the players on the detroit lions i would surely agreed too!!!

[BABore]

First off, I'm more or less in Lloyd's camp on this one. There's just not that much difference. Especially when the intended target, a 150 to 200 whitetail deer, is a infinitely variable media in regards to reaction.

But, what I haven't seen addressed in this entire thread is the boolit's nose profile. Most all the responses kind of treat the subject like we're shooting 44 and 45 caliber pencils through the critter. Keith-type or LBT ogival style boolit noses have a meplat. The size of the meplat, and impact velocity, will determine wound channel size. IMO, the boolit's driving band diameter is a secondary thing. The mepat is pushing/blasting a channel ahead of the driving diameter in many cases. If this were not the case, how is it that you can get a 1 inch plus, permanent wound channel from a 44, 45, 475, or 50 caliber hard cast boolit? Was the boolit's bearing diameter creating it? I think not.

Then we can get into hollow points. Remember, we're talking deer here. A softish lead HP, with proper cavity configuration, will do an enormous amount of damage at even 900-1,000 fps. Push them faster and you can create a grenade with greatly reduced penetration. Cavity configuration must be adjusted accordingly.

Point is, give me either a 44 or 45, and I can make them kill a whitetail totally out of proportion from one another by addressing the nose, alloy, and velocity.

[MakeMineA10mm]

That doesn’t sound like much difference, but it really depends on the frame of reference. Suppose a hospital announced to the world that they only dropped 4.5% of the babies they deliver on their heads. It’s very small compared to the number of babies they don’t drop, right?
Right, and comparing the difference between nearly identical calibers' terminal ballistics in large field game to the zero-fail tolerance of dropping babies on their heads (whether they're from Michigan or not [smilie=l: ) is the wrong frame of referrence (even with no capital letters... :takinWiz: ).



Folks, this is middle school geometry for Pete's sake. We all have opinions, and quite frankly I don't care if you want to shoot deer with a rail gun that fires Bobby Sherman and Iron Butterfly LP's. But opinions don't trump physics, mechanics or elementary geometry for that matter.
Yes, the latest example I used (as well as your example following it) are using middle school geometry, which I chose for easiness of calculating and seeming accuracy of capturing the true effective difference between the two calibers (which is my opinion and therefore unscientific, but it seems more than a few others here, share that estimation). We could just as well used momentum, energy, Taylor Knock-Out Value, or another one of the dozens of formulas which have all been proven to not encompass or capture the true nature of gunshot terminal ballistics. So, yes, you're right, your opinion doesn't trump terminal ballistics any more than mine, but until we have a Law of Gunshot Wound Terminal Ballistics, it's all just opinion.

As far as tolerance of differing opinions, I hear you saying it, but I don't seem to see it much. Whenever someone expresses a different opinion than 45-is-King, you dig in to show them wrong. That's fine, that's what caliber-wars are all about, as long as we don't take them too seriously. I just find it hypocritical to imply by saying that, that you're tolerant of other's opinions... :rolleyes:


A gun-shot wound isn’t two dimensional like a ‘Twister Spot’. We have deal with penetration depth, in geometry it’s called height, h .

GSW are cylinders. The margins of the wound are measured in circumference (pi*r*h ) + (2*pi*r^2) … add (pi*r*h ) for an exit wound. Plug in the numbers, do the math and you will see the difference is now approaching 7%. But the true measure of a wound is the volume of the cylinder (2*pi*r^2*h) yielding a difference north of 10%. Medically a 10% larger wound is significant.
Right again, except your math is getting fuzzy. Volume isn't best measured with circumference, it's measured with diameter (find the area of the circle and then multiply by the height of the cylinder for total volume), and where did you come up with adding another formula for an exit wound? I agree two holes leak better than one, but if we're comparing apples to apples and using equally constructed and shaped bullets at equal velocities, and with identical sectional densities, both the 44 and 45 will penetrate through and through (to keep the example easy for argument's sake), and you've already taken into account the larger diameter in your cylinder volume measurement.

However, most-importantly for the sake of this argument, and what I feel is the biggest factor in preventing us from having discovered the true Law of Bullet Would Terminal Ballistics, is that you can't simplify it down any more to a cylinder than I could to a spot. We can try and simplify things all we want, but the real world is complicated, and liver tissue contracts different than lung tissue, which is different than muscle tissue, which is different than skin tissue, which is... Well, you get the idea, and that's just the differences in how they contract. There's also differences in how they bleed, and there's the coagulant factor of the blood, and, and, and... See why millions of dollars spent by the DOJ couldn't figure this out? Even Dr. Martin Fackler will admit his 10% gelatin is not calculating stopping power or a law or even a conclusive factor of terminal ballistics. It's just the best that's been figured out so far, and a fairly good way to compare one bullet to another under the best (but no where near ideal or perfect) simulation of the real world we've got.

If it were as easy as calculating the volume of the wound cylinder (or the area of the bore dia., or energy or momentum or TKO or .......) we'd have a scientifically provable law which would end all of these caliber debates...

No, the difference between the 44 and 45 is not 10%, 11% or possibly not even as much as 7%. IF there was that much of a difference, then there'd be the same difference between the 44 and 41, which would mean the 41 is twice as bad, compared to the 45 as the 44. And, by extension let's go down to the 10mm and then the 357 Mag. Heck, let's go up to the 480 Ruger. If there's roughly 10% difference between them due to the volume of their wound cylinders, and we assign an arbitrary value of 100 to the 480 Ruger, then the 45 would be 90, 44 would be 80, 41 would be 70, 10mm would be 60, and the 357 would be roughly 40 (because there's a big jump between .358" and .401" -- bigger than the jumps between the other calibers, at least). In the real world there's just not that much difference, at least if you're using something bigger than the 357 Mag...

And, while we're at it, if there's a 10% performance difference in incapacitation between the 44 and 45, what's your estimate of the difference between the 45 and a 12ga shotgun slug (also moving about the same speed as these pistol rounds, but vastly bigger and heavier, but probably with the same or a little worse sectional density, depending on the slug used)?

All we're doing here is proving that the volume of a cylinder is NOT a good value to base a comparison of the caliber's killing effectiveness. I'm sure that's been proven before.


At any rate it isn’t an accurate representation of the difference, mathematically speaking. IN SPITE OF THE CAPITAL LETTERS.
Well, neither is your assertion that 10% is a more accurate description of the difference which is backed up my debunking argument above.

Fact of the matter is, you can shoot a deer with a 458 Win Mag and it might still run off and die a couple hundred yards away... (What's your estimate on the difference in stopping percentage of that one?)

The reason I used area of the bore (roughly 4.5%) is because that seems to be a realistic difference based on my observations, the observations of others, and the overall comparison of differences in values we can measure (volume of cylinder, area of bore, energy, momentum, etc.). This is MY opinion.

The bottom line (AGAIN) is that caliber wars never end and are never won by any side, because we don't have a law of incapacitation (or terminal ballistics) yet, so all we're ever going to do here is conjecture, argue, and debate. No conclusion.

You stick with your 45. I'll stick with my 44. I'll stick with my opinion that the 45 is 4.5% (roughly) better than the 44. (I'd have thought the 45 supporters would be happy a 44-supporter would agree with them, but I guess it's a matter of not agreeing ENOUGH...) [smilie=s:

[jwp475]

well just to be fair I took the montado out last night and shot a 100 lb doe with it. Load was a 255 swc and 9..5 grains of herco. Have to admit the deer did die!!! Hit behind the sholder at 40 yards and ran about 60 steps and piled up stone dead. Typical relvolver kill. Also shot two at 200 and 275 with the 257 weatherby both bang flop! Now theres a deer killing sob! The one at 275 was hit about a foot to far back and still dropped in her tracks.

Ever run any 45 Colts loads in the 13 to 1400 FPS range on Deer?

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot many deer and a few hogs and bear with 45s using 300s at 1200. Any faster and i take out the 454 and ive shot a few with that using 300-350s at 1400-1500. No doubt they kill deer deader then hell. Again though ive got to say that ive killed deer with the same weight 44 bullets at 1200 out of rugers and 1300-1400 out redhawks and even faster out of lever guns and i see very little if any differnce in the quickness of the kills between both calibers using comparable weight and metplat bullets at the same speed. Like ive said through out this post i dont dislike the 45 colt. Ive killed alot of game with it and shot it often. Not as much as the 44s though. What swayed me back to the 44s more then anything is in the guns ive owned theyve just been more accurate and easier to find accurate loads for and when it comes to shooting bullets under 300 grain 45 bullets that do exceptionaly well are rare. I have at least a half a dozen 250-275 molds in 44 that will shoot well in about every gun i put them in. Ive yet to find a single 45 lighter bullet that will shoot exceptionaly well in a number of guns. Sure you can get them to shoot and in most cases shoot exceptional well but it takes at least twice the range time and twice the expensive components to do it. Heres a picture of a couple of my custom 45s just to show you i do like them. One is a bisley vaquero dave clements did for me after i shot the original gun so loose it was like a babys rattle using loads i wont admit in print to using(top gun in the picture) It may not be my favorite gun but its in the top 3. . the other is a lightweight 4 inch vaquero that is a stainless gun with an aluminum grip frame and ejector rod housing that I actually carry pretty often. It was also done by dave clements. Its the gun pictured on his web sight for the ernmie conversion. It probably seems funny but i dont have full blown custom 44 mag. Ive got some that had some small things done like barrel chopping ect but 44s are available is so many configurations and usually shoot so well out of the box that i never really had a need for one. Closest is probably my 3.5 in round butted redhawk that dustin linebaugh did for me. Some day though if i ever get the money id like a 5 shot 44 mag on a small framed bisley vaquero but being on a fixed income now i doubt i will ever come up with the 2 grand it would cost.

[donjose]

Okay Lloyd stop showing the six gun porn I am getting very Jealous!!
I really like those guns :)

Jason

[bigboredad]

just curious what is the difference between a .45 and a 9mm

[9.3X62AL]

About 40 years' worth of gunscribe copy. :)

I just love a good Caliber War--where's the popcorn?

[jwp475]

just curious what is the difference between a .45 and a 9mm



.096"

[Dale53]

.096"

:groner: LOL

Dale53

[txpete]

I have shot my fair share of deer with cast bullets in 45 colt and 44 mag.you don't need a PHD to figure this one out.
all deer dead,never recovered a bullet and a blood trail stevie wonder could follow.it doesn't get any easier than that.:drinks:
pete

[bigboredad]

another curiosity question sorry I never was good at math but if the difference is that big wouldn't the .45 be a better stopper than the 9 and wouldn't the people that do all these tests and use all these fancy formulas be able to figure that out:confused:

[ole 5 hole group]

another curiosity question sorry I never was good at math but if the difference is that big wouldn't the .45 be a better stopper than the 9 and wouldn't the people that do all these tests and use all these fancy formulas be able to figure that out:confused:

I can tell you weren’t around when McNamara & his whiz kids were hard at play. Since when did experience & common sense come into play relative to gov’t anything?? – especially civilian politicans telling the military what’s best for them.

[9.3X62AL]

another curiosity question sorry I never was good at math but if the difference is that big wouldn't the .45 be a better stopper than the 9 and wouldn't the people that do all these tests and use all these fancy formulas be able to figure that out:confused:

I can't speak to the Armed Services and their caliber selection, but in the police arena the people with the most influence on weapon and ammunition choices were often the least likely to have to actually USE the implements and their contents for the intended purpose of issuance. It is in venues of that nature that the 9mm Parabellum does its best work--especially with Fackler's Folly, the sub-sonic 147 grain JHP.

That should get the Jello-Chillers with the propeller hats and calculators frothing at the mouth nicely. Going fishing, and I'll be back on Friday. Have fun, y'all. :)

[jwp475]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[Whitworth]

another curiosity question sorry I never was good at math but if the difference is that big wouldn't the .45 be a better stopper than the 9 and wouldn't the people that do all these tests and use all these fancy formulas be able to figure that out:confused:


Well yeah, it is.

[Ed K]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

from page 14:

"Because of the extreme number of variables within the human target, and within shooting situations in general, even a hundred shootings is statistically insignificant."

[44man]

This post has made my head spin! :bigsmyl2:
All I have read here is comparing boolit diameter and from the .44 to the .45 it means nothing until you figure boolit weight and velocity.
If you shoot the same weight boolit at the same velocity, the .45 has an edge just like the .475 puts both to shame.
But it is hard to get a 300 gr boolit from the .45 to shoot as fast as a 300 gr from the .44 and as boolit weight goes up, it gets farther apart. Since 1350 fps is just right, if you shoot any caliber at this velocity, as diameter increases, so does effect on an animal.
I find it hard to go over 1160 fps with a 335 gr boolit in the .45 and MAINTAIN ACCURACY, yet I can reach 1316 fps WITH ACCURACY in the .44 using a 320 gr boolit. Sure, you can get hot loads with a heavy .45 but can you hit anything?
The .44 has a greater effect on deer then the .45. Bring the .45 to 1316 fps and it will be BETTER then the .44.
That means that the .45 has to use a little lighter boolit then the .44 to be best at the velocity range that kills quickest.
All of you keep tossing apples and oranges, grapes and PEANUTS into this discussion.
The very worst thing is to just make a load so fast it works on a deer but sprays boolits.
Too slow, slows down time to death and too fast kills worse. I have shot too many deer with the .45 at 1160 fps that showed zero reaction and took longer to die then any hit with the .44 to argue with anyone, it is a fact.
Take the calibers from .41 to .500, shoot heavy boolits appropriate, at the same velocity and in every case, the larger diameter boolit will do better. But shoot a larger diameter boolit at a lower velocity and you lose the advantage. Shoot it too fast like 1500 to 1800 fps and the advantage is also gone.
I think the large meplat boolit just has to be shot at the proper velocity for it to work fast and clean.
Lloyd and JWP make a lot of sense with experience.
Most of you bounce all over with nothing that can be compared. :veryconfu
Some change red paint to blue with a brush change! :bigsmyl2:

[ole 5 hole group]

Ya, your last post reads like your head was spinning when you typed it.:kidding:

[bigboredad]

well now i am straight on the .45 9mm thanks guys and as for the rest of the debate I like the .45 cause I can. I hope everyone else goes the .44 so the price of .45's goes down and I can buy more:bigsmyl2: I wish I could afford a .475 but I have 6 .45's that a really like so I will just enjoy the pics that get posted here of the .475's. Lloyd, Whitworth, .44man, and a whole host of others that do it instead of talk about get my vote and I have learned more useful things from these guys than from the formula guys. So thanks to the and the rest of you all get out there and buy those .44[smilie=s:

[OBIII]

Just to put my two cents (centavo's?) in, I have a Ruger Blackhawk .45 convertible, 7 1/2" barrel, and a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 magnum, 7 1/2" barrel. Therefore I subscribe to the teachings of White Eagle, one for each hand. While all of the science and math can be calculated, would anyone really like to be shot with either? I know that I would not want to be on the receiving end of either. While I am not a hunter, I have used both to scare the hell out of beer cans at 200 yards in the desert.

[44man]

Some still take me wrong. I LOVE the .45 as much as the .44. I just know the limitations with the velocity using heavy boolits.
Reduce the velocity of the .44 to what you can get with the .45 and the .45 is still better. I would not shoot deer with the .475 at 800 fps and expect it to be better then a .45 at 1160 fps. Neither is as good as a .44 at 1316 fps.
Keep velocity IN THE BOX, don't go below or above and the larger bore works better.
We are talking HUNTING, NOT PEOPLE SHOOTING and I have no idea why it crops up. To ask which I would want to be shot with is crazy because I don't want to be shot with a "BB" gun either.
Some hot rod a caliber and get results but to pass the accuracy point only shortens effective range.
If you think a slow .45 is better then a .44 in the box because of a few thousandths in boolit diameter, you would be wrong. You can only compare when BOTH are in the box---AS LONG AS YOU CAN HIT THE DEER at every distance, not just 20 yards.
The .44 can be a total failure with the wrong bullet and velocity. Yet many keep showing apples and oranges.
Even the lead alloy can change every single effect on deer from any caliber. A pure lead round ball at 1100 fps will kill deer faster then a hard boolit at 1400 fps.
There is no way to answer the original question because BOTH calibers work. It depends on what you feed them.

[donjose]

I have a question what would in the box velocity be for 475 Line,480 Ruger and 500 Smith?Also what about boolit weights?

Jason

[Whitworth]

I have a question what would in the box velocity be for 475 Line,480 Ruger and 500 Smith?Also what about boolit weights?

Jason

What do you mean by "in the box?" My .475 loads feature a 420 grain bullet at a pretty typical 1,350 fps. The .480 works very well with a 400 grain bullet right around 1,200 fps. Can't help you with the .500 Smith as I don't have one -- although I have three other .50 cals.

[donjose]

Keep velocity IN THE BOX, don't go below or above and the larger bore works better.

Just seen what 44man had said, I thought maybe it was a general term.
Wouldnt the Smith 500 be close to the 500 Linebaugh as far as velocity I was thinking 440 grain boolit at about 1325-1350:)


Jason

[Whitworth]

Just seen what 44man had said, I thought maybe it was a general term.
Wouldnt the Smith 500 be close to the 500 Linebaugh as far as velocity I was thinking 440 grain boolit at about 1325-1350:)


Jason

No, typically the .500 Linebaugh is run much slower than the .500 Smith -- it's a 1.4-inch case versus the .500 Smith's 1.6-inch case.

[44man]

What I mean is that you cant take two boolits the same weight, alloy and compare one at 1000 fps to one at 1350 fps.
Take a .45 boolit at 1100 and one at 1350 and the one at 1350 kills better and faster but keep increasing velocity to, say 1600 fps and you will start to poke holes. This is with a hard boolit so at the higher velocities, you need to bring in expansion and expansion at the slower velocities works better.
All the large calibers work just fine and heavy boolits work good but to compare all of them based only on boolit diameter alone does not work. Neither does using the same alloy in all calibers.
Out of the box means the velocity is wrong for the alloy or the alloy is wrong for the velocity. Each caliber has it's box where it works best and everyone wants to compare only diameter.
Larger calibers and very heavy boolits hit harder but when you compare the .44 and .45 with boolits almost the same weight and say the .45 is better based only on diameter and not the velocity it is shot or the alloy needed, you are out of the box.
Both calibers work to perfection so how does anyone compare when you alter specs for each? Shoot a 300 gr from both at the same velocity and I defy anyone to say one works better then the other. As you increase the caliber and boolit weight, impact goes up if you stay at the same velocities. If you shoot a 420 gr from the .475 at 1000 fps, you will find it is WAY behind the same boolit at 1350 fps. But you can make the 1000 fps boolit work if you put it back in the box with an alloy change.
Comparing a .44 with a .45 or a .480 with a .475 is just silly because you can load wrong and make all of them fail or make all of them work by using what works for each.
Hand me a .44 with a 180 gr, fast expanding bullet and a .45 with a 300 gr boolit at 1100 fps and I will take the .45 every time. But I would choose the .44 with a 300 gr boolit at 1350 fps over the Colt.
What would kill deer better, a 250 gr .45 going 760 fps or a 335 gr going 1160 fps? You need to compare apples to apples.

[chaos]

I understand exactly what 44man speaks of. My .44 load totally devestates wild hogs. Leaves blood trails Ray Charles could follow. Just punches holes that dont want to bleed in deer. I've got an accurate load, but my alloy or speed is wrong for the meplat I am driving on the softer bodied deer.

[Ed K]

Veral Smith developed a formula to define "the box". Whether or not you subscribe to his or not is irrelevant. The point in bringing it up is to point out that if there is indeed a "box" and the variables can be defined, then it would be beneficial to have a formula to get yourself there before you take to the woods.

[Lloyd Smale]

44man is hitting on my exact argument about comparing the two. Theres just to many variable in what bullets a guy is using what alloy and what speed hes shooting them at to say one is a clearly better killer. Some guys think that just because its bigger its better and thats not the case. My 44 load may out kill your chosen 45 colt load and swithch the bullet and add a 100fps and it could change right around. If you load them both up to max velocity with a 320grain lfn theres still variables. For one what you may consider max velocity i may not. Granted when push comes to shove i can run a 320 a bit faster in a 45 colt 5 shot then i can in a 44 and with its slightly bigger diameter it may be a minutely better killer but if were talking deer weve allready loaded our ammo to levels that are way above whats nessisary for a quick clean kill and on animals that size your just not going to get any better performance out of either one. It may show up on something the size of a buffalo but i still doubt that if a buffalo was hit by a 320lfn at 1300 fps out of both that the results would vary much. I could take this arguement to an even bigger extream using differnt bullets. Shoot a couple deer with cast hps in a 44 or 45 and ill bet you a dime to a dollar you get quicker kills with those then you do with a 500 linebaugh using hardcast lfns. I guess my point in all of this is matching the load to the game your after is much more important then a small increase in bullet diameter. even a 250 grain hardcast swc or lfn at 1100 fps out of either will do alot of killing. It wont dump animals in there tracks usually but it certainly will kill them and it doesnt matter if your using a 44 special a 44 mag or a 45 colt. All those platforms are capable of shooting at that level. I own them all and have used them all and unlike some i have no predudices about them and dont have the attitude that what i have is better then what you have. Right back to my rifle comparison. Ive heard to many times guys claim that there 270 is a bettter killer then a 06 or the 280 is better then the 270 or a 300 weatherby is a better killer then a 300 win mag. Bottom line is all of those guns are overly powerfull for a 100 lb whitetail to the point of overkill and any advantage is more in the mind or ego of the guy bragging on it. Place a 44 or 45 in the boileroom and you will eat venison tommarow.

[cptinjeff]

WOW.......

The mental gymnastics going on here to prove a preference is amazing. The load you choose matters. The boolit, alloy, velocity, and pressure matter. To say that one will kill better than another due to a couple hundred feet per second, or a couple of thousands of an inch diameter, or a few grains of boolit weight is missing the real world point. Both are fine calibers for deer or hog and both get the job done about equally. I don't think deer die in enough of a linear fashion to make statements about which would kill better (with proper loads).

If I shoot 4 (similar impact zone) deer. It could be that I would have 2 bang flops with a .45 and 2 run 80yards with the .44 OR vise versa. This could lead me to a preference for one caliber over the other. The next 4 deer could do the exact opposite. These are animals fighting for life and all will react differently.

I choose to hunt with 280-300g boolits @ 1150-1250 fps. For me that is in the .45 colts wheel house. It is a slightly larger caliber and shoots to those velocities with much less pressure and concussion. That doesn't mean it is better than the .44 mag but it is how I choose to load it that makes the .45 better for MY preference. When I hold a loaded round of each in my hand the .45 just seems more substantial. Saying this, I know I don't have any "advantage" over my buddy shooting a .44 and he has none on me. It is shot placement and the specific animal hit that really matter. I've shot a lot of animals with both calibers and most of them are 40 yard (excellent blood trail not that you need it for 40 yards) and down. Some go further, some go flop.

I agree somewhat with 44man's "window" although I don't think the lower end is as important as the top end. I don't see how this window makes a difference in which caliber you choose as both perform very well within that specific range. You certainly don't need a 320g boolit to kill a deer and that is the mental gymnastic this argument is using. Even if you did need that boolit weight it is pretty easy to shoot a 325g .45 to 1350 accurately, so once again this "window" wouldn't separate the calibers.

Both will kill very ethicaly so shoot what you have or shoot what you like and enjoy killing some animals:lol:;-)

[Dale53]

Lloyd Smale;
You gentlemen have said it all.

What we ALL need to emphasize is that we must practice constantly to maintain a high level of performance. Good hits are FAR more important than some mythical difference between calibers.

Casting our own bullets and reloading allow us to afford the needed practice to maintain a high level of performance.

Dale53

[44man]

You really see what I have been saying. I will be the last person to say the .45 or .44 is better. It is what you do with them. Neither has any flies and may both live forever.

[Changeling]

CPtinjeff , Could repeat that please, LOL! Very well said indeed. I had no idea you could be so eloquent, I just have to get me one of those pedestals you use, maybe that would help me ! Kidding aside, I really liked the way you brought things together very comprehensive and accurate!

BTW, I haven't forgot the other thing, having problems with supplies.

Now go take care of that new baby, BTW you never told me the name.

Changeling

[RobS]

Been looking at the Ruger 45 or 44 Super Blackhawk Hunter, not sure which way to go.I am reloading and will be starting to cast soon, want to get good accurate 100 yard shots will be putting a Ultra Dot on it.Any thoughts

Thank You
Jason

I don't know how this thread became a 155 count one with the majority of it being over the bickering of "killing". General interest between a 44 mag and 45 colt in a Ruger Super Black Hawk Hunter along with Accuracy was a point of interest in the OP.

Many valid points on hunting intent or killing potential has been established between the two calibers but the thread definitely drifted with no form of clarity in content. There will always be those who believe that the 44 mag is better and those who believe the 45 colt is better and further yet those that believe they have the same “killing” potential within similar bullet design (meplat diameters and weight) along with velocities etc. Given the amount of effort to refute either there is absolutely no point in beating a dead horse. Once again re-read the OP and find a means of discussion that answers Jason's question and the thread will have served its purpose.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

I don't know how this thread became a 155 count one with the majority of it being over the bickering of "killing". General interest between a 44 mag and 45 colt in a Ruger Super Black Hawk Hunter along with Accuracy was a point of interest in the OP.

Many valid points on hunting intent or killing potential has been established between the two calibers but the thread definitely drifted with no form of clarity in content. There will always be those who believe that the 44 mag is better and those who believe the 45 colt is better and further yet those that believe they have the same “killing” potential within similar bullet design (meplat diameters and weight) along with velocities etc. Given the amount of effort to refute either there is absolutely no point in beating a dead horse. Once again re-read the OP and find a means of discussion that answers Jason's question and the thread will have served its purpose.

I don't get your point. DJ's OP has been answered precicely in more than one location. It's wanderd off topic but that's the nature of open discussion, this isn't a formal depate. This thread contains 155 posts and nearly 3000 views, clearly it's interesting to members what's the beef?

Top

[donjose]

:violin:

[RobS]

No beef at all...........the original post asked about the 44 mag and 45 colt regarding a specific type of firearm, the Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter model. Go through all the posts in this tread and see how many actually talk about the Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter in 44 mag or in the 45 colt. Yes it is a forum with open discussion and spinoffs do happen however the never ending deliberation of which kills better is an old conundrum and never finds a resolution between those involved in the pissing match. The reason for so many posts, people can't resist being said they are wrong (the controversy). The number of views to this tread, directly linked to what people like to see, others getting all fired up at each other (i.e. BS reality TV).

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

No beef at all...........the original post asked about the 44 mag and 45 colt regarding a specific type of firearm, the Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter model. Go through all the posts in this tread and see how many actually talk about the Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter in 44 mag or in the 45 colt. Yes it is a forum with open discussion and spinoffs do happen however the never ending deliberation of which kills better is an old conundrum and never finds a resolution between those involved in the pissing match. The reason for so many posts, people can't resist being said they are wrong (the controversy). The number of views to this tread, directly linked to what people like to see, others getting all fired up at each other (i.e. BS reality TV).

That sounds just a bit elitist, don't you think?

LOL, You're all a bunch or voyers out there.

[txpete]

jar head humor ?.:bigsmyl2:

[9.3X62AL]

I think gun people just enjoy caliber debates, the same way that old-school gearheads rave on and on over the Blue Oval/Black Bow Tie/Mopar argument. Now izzit NISMO vs. TRD? WHATEVER.

I own both calibers, and enjoy both calibers. I shoot both calibers quite a bit, along with the 41 Magnum and 44 Special. None of these are my "favorite", though--that distinction goes to the 357 Magnum, and I fire 3X as many of those rounds as I do the prior 4 all together. Some of that has to do with CCW, because the 357 is authorized and the other 4 are not--though 45 ACP is allowed. The 357 is by some distance my most-carried caliber, too. I have a confidence in the 357 Magnum I lack with the 9mm and 40 S&W, and maybe the 45 ACP as well. I was a hunter long before I became a LEO, and the fact that a 357 has taken a deer for me and for many others might provide that extra "prop" lacking in those chamberings I'm not comfy taking into the deer woods.

Would I carry a 44 Special/Mag or 45 Colt revolver if authorized? IN A DETROIT SECOND, for the same reason the 357 has a comfort zone for me--they are all field calibers I trust and know well.

[OBIII]

The hell with all of this. Just go out and shoot something, anything, preferably a Liberal.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

The hell with all of this. Just go out and shoot something, anything, preferably a Liberal.

Alas, from your lips too God's ears. Unfortunately the only thing I get to shoot off these days is my mouth. Missing too many digits on the shooting hand I'm afraid. Gave everything away to my boys, not that I owned that much and took up fly fishing- I have a real cool prosthesis for that.

At my retirement ceremony SgtMaj Kent gave me a new M-45 MEUSOC with my enlistment year+retiremant year for a serial number. Never had a round through it-- Go figure?

[ole 5 hole group]

Master Guns, there's not many people that have earned the right to possess Force Recon hardware - you are one of the proud few to have earned that right. The Corps was diminished by your leave.

Catching brook trout is far more difficult than shooting deer – I wish you luck at that endeavor and may you enjoy your retirement.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Right, and comparing the difference between nearly identical calibers' terminal ballistics in large field game to the zero-fail tolerance of dropping babies on their heads (whether they're from Michigan or not [smilie=l: ) is the wrong frame of referrence (even with no capital letters... :takinWiz: ). :

That was the point. To point up that you provided no frame of reference to your declared insignificant difference punctuated with capital letters. I see your method of emphasis has moved to the more mature, vulgar smiley. Normally one needs to visit the local skate park in order to find someone who can articulate at that level of maturity. Thank you for saving me the trip.

I chose the analogy because small the difference and the frame of reference were intuitive and didn’t require explanation. What you omitted, we’ll assume naively rather than dishonestly was that 4.5% difference in diameter in plane geometry is much greater in solid geometry. Static difference, large or small means nothing in a dynamic system unless you can quantify the results in context. A bathtub full of water with one pound of dissolved lard is 99% fat free.


Yes, the latest example I used (as well as your example following it) are using middle school geometry, which I chose for easiness of calculating and seeming accuracy of capturing the true effective difference between the two calibers (which is my opinion and therefore unscientific, but it seems more than a few others here, share that estimation). We could just as well used momentum, energy, Taylor Knock-Out Value, or another one of the dozens of formulas which have all been proven to not encompass or capture the true nature of gunshot terminal ballistics. So, yes, you're right, your opinion doesn't trump terminal ballistics any more than mine, but until we have a Law of Gunshot Wound Terminal Ballistics, it's all just opinion.

With all due respect to your unscientific opinion, how do you keep arriving at the conclusion that a 4.5% planar difference in diameter is a better metric than wound size. I’m quite certain you’ll find enough people to agree with you to validate your opinion but consensus is not science.

Obviously, you don’t have a clue what momentum is or does. But we can discuss it if you like. Just so we have a good starting point, why don’t you tell us what momentum is and how it’s relevant to wounds and terminal ballistics. Start a new thread if you're inclined.

Energy has no role in terminal ballistics. It does provide nice big integers to toss about. Energy is a scalar, strictly a measure of magnitude without vector or description. 900 ft/lbs means the object contains enough kinetic energy to move 900lbs- 1foot vertically or horizontally, or 450 lbs – 2feet vertically or horizontally and so on. Take your .44 with a 240gr projectile at say 1500 fps at the muzzle. That’s roughly 1200 ft/lbs of energy. Lay that muzzle against the side of a 150 lb deer and you should move him roughly 9’. Ever seen that happen? Energy is completely specious until you can describe precisely the work being done with the vector.

The lion’s share of kinetic energy carried by a hollow point bullet is used in the expansion of the bullet leaving much less than is carried by the hard cast at impact to be transferred to the victim. Yet hollow point or expanding bullets deliver much more rapid incapacitation with less energy transferred because they create larger wounds in spite of less kinetic energy to transfer. Nothing complicated- big hole, big hurt.

TKOV favors the larger diameter bullet. By all means please proceed.

Energy transfer is a myth. Tissue isn’t water; it is a compressible solid with memory. The pressure wave of a sub-sonic impact is grossly insufficient to generate anywhere near the 100 or so atmospheres of pressure to damage tissues.


As far as tolerance of differing opinions, I hear you saying it, but I don't seem to see it much. Whenever someone expresses a different opinion than 45-is-King, you dig in to show them wrong. That's fine, that's what caliber-wars are all about, as long as we don't take them too seriously. I just find it hypocritical to imply by saying that, that you're tolerant of other's opinions... :rolleyes:

Now with the- rolling eyes. Are you capable to write your thoughts? Or shall we just scribble pictures in the dirt and grunt. The occasional smiley is one thing and oft times humorous, but this is bordering on adolescence. If you expect me to take you seriously act like an adult.

I’m not at all tolerant of differing opinions that fly in the face of science, most especially a pundit who declares in capital letters only to slither under the rock of “we all have different opinions” for protection like a little girl. When you state something emphatically with capital letters, be prepared to support it with something more substantial than “in my opinion”.


Right again, except your math is getting fuzzy. Volume isn't best measured with circumference, it's measured with diameter (find the area of the circle and then multiply by the height of the cylinder for total volume), and where did you come up with adding another formula for an exit wound? I agree two holes leak better than one, but if we're comparing apples to apples and using equally constructed and shaped bullets at equal velocities, and with identical sectional densities, both the 44 and 45 will penetrate through and through (to keep the example easy for argument's sake), and you've already taken into account the larger diameter in your cylinder volume measurement.

The math is quite valid in spite of your inability to understand it. Obviously the difference between plane geometry and solid geometry escape you. Perhaps if you had grasped it better you might have been able to point up the typo in the cylinder area portion of the formula (2pi*r*h not pi*r*h)

Def. Wound Margins- the rim or boarder of a wound http://www.hollister.com/us/wound/resource/glossary.html. The rim or boarder of a circle is the circumference; medically, wounds are defined by their margins. We have a cylinder, the margins/surface (not the volume) of the cylinder is expressed (2pi*r*h ) + (2*pi*r^2). Agreed, for comparing the margins of through shots, (2pi*r*h ) + (2*pi*r^2) is sufficient, no point complicating the issue with infinitesimal layers of skin.



However, most-importantly for the sake of this argument, and what I feel is the biggest factor in preventing us from having discovered the true Law of Bullet Would Terminal Ballistics, is that you can't simplify it down any more to a cylinder than I could to a spot. We can try and simplify things all we want, but the real world is complicated, and liver tissue contracts different than lung tissue, which is different than muscle tissue, which is different than skin tissue, which is... Well, you get the idea, and that's just the differences in how they contract. There's also differences in how they bleed, and there's the coagulant factor of the blood, and, and, and... See why millions of dollars spent by the DOJ couldn't figure this out? Even Dr. Martin Fackler will admit his 10% gelatin is not calculating stopping power or a law or even a conclusive factor of terminal ballistics. It's just the best that's been figured out so far, and a fairly good way to compare one bullet to another under the best (but no where near ideal or perfect) simulation of the real world we've got.

The biggest factor preventing you from discovering the law of Terminal Ballistics is your struggle with the reality of a larger hole.

I’m glad you brought up The Doc! I didn’t intend to name drop but since you wish to appeal to Dr. Fackler’s work. I’ve known, worked with, and conducted shot tests for Martin Fackler for more than 20 years and he would tell exactly what I’m about to tell you. We do have a “Law of Gunshot Wound Terminal Ballistics”. It’s more commonly known as physiology. Larger wounds create a higher probability of hemorrhagic shock, the precursor to primary shock. Larger wounds bleed more, larger wounds destroy and/or macerate more tissue, and larger wounds have a higher probability of disrupting nerve plexuses. These are the mechanisms of incapacitation. Do consult the medical professional of your choice. Short a complete detonation of the central nervous system or instantaneous hydraulic decompression, H.S. is the process by which a projectile does its evil work. Proper shot placement is always assumed axiomatic to any discussion of the merits of one caliber as opposed to another.
I’m aware you feel there is no “Law of Terminal Ballistics” but DoD and the medical community arrived at a different conclusion quite some time ago. Serious, legitimate wound ballistics researchers don’t just shoot bullets into ordnance gelatin, review static dimensions and ignore physiological principles nor do they rely on anecdotes from big game hunters, Elmer Keith or the general shooting public. Their work would never pass peer review or be accepted as valid in the scientific community. Moreover, these scientists don't publish their work in Peterson’s Hunter, Guns and Ammo or Boo Boo Boogalou’s Hand Loading Digest, and they really don't care what the general shooting population chooses to believe. These researchers publish their findings in professional journals, where it's available to people who are truly interested in the data. Not seekers of validation for some “emotional attachment” instilled by a mentor.


If it were as easy as calculating the volume of the wound cylinder (or the area of the bore dia., or energy or momentum or TKO or .......) we'd have a scientifically provable law which would end all of these caliber debates...

It really isn’t much more difficult than that. The debate is only going on among the amateurs.


No, the difference between the 44 and 45 is not 10%, 11% or possibly not even as much as 7%. IF there was that much of a difference, then there'd be the same difference between the 44 and 41, which would mean the 41 is twice as bad, compared to the 45 as the 44. And, by extension let's go down to the 10mm and then the 357 Mag. Heck, let's go up to the 480 Ruger. If there's roughly 10% difference between them due to the volume of their wound cylinders, and we assign an arbitrary value of 100 to the 480 Ruger, then the 45 would be 90, 44 would be 80, 41 would be 70, 10mm would be 60, and the 357 would be roughly 40 (because there's a big jump between .358" and .401" -- bigger than the jumps between the other calibers, at least). In the real world there's just not that much difference, at least if you're using something bigger than the 357 Mag...

Yes, graphically that would be an approximate representation of the slope of the line. The actual numbers wouldn’t be as neat and tidy, but the general trend would follow what you laid out. BTW the wound volume difference between .480 and .452 is more than the difference between .452 and .429.


And, while we're at it, if there's a 10% performance difference in incapacitation between the 44 and 45, what's your estimate of the difference between the 45 and a 12ga shotgun slug (also moving about the same speed as these pistol rounds, but vastly bigger and heavier, but probably with the same or a little worse sectional density, depending on the slug used)?

I don’t think I said there was 10% more incapacitation, that’s silly, incapacitated is incapacitated, like pregnant is pregnant you either are or aren’t. You can’t be 10% more pregnant than the next person. What I did imply and will state categorically is that a larger wound incapacitates faster, that is a fact.

I would probably be trying to change the subject and/or parameters about now as well, were I you. But we are talking about .429 and .452 caliber hard cast bullets. We can discuss shotguns another time, let’s stay focused shall we.


All we're doing here is proving that the volume of a cylinder is NOT a good value to base a comparison of the caliber's killing effectiveness. I'm sure that's been proven before.

I see. In your learned opinion the relative size of the wound is not nearly as good a basis for comparison of terminal ballistics as the static plane geometry of the projectile. Wow! All that money we spent on cadavers when all we really needed was a good set of calipers.
If it has been proven you ought to be able to produce at least one study submitted for peer reviewed that supports your claim.

Well, neither is your assertion that 10% is a more accurate description of the difference which is backed up my debunking argument above.

Oh for God’s sake the damn color of the wound is more relevant than the static plane geometry. The only measure of terminal ballistics is the wound. You’ve debunked nothing; you haven’t even made an intelligent argument with respect to the size of the wound. What you’ve managed is several paragraphs of pure drivel trying to avoid the central issue of the bigger hole. Initially it was a difference of opinion, but you quickly realized the hole is bigger in spite of your opinion. Next, you attempted to seize upon the confusion among laity over kinetic energy and momentum and added a healthy dose of obfuscation, but the larger hole remains. Then the feeble attempted to drag a shotgun into the fray, anything to avoid dealing with the bigger hole. This reminds me of the Black Knight from Monty Python.


The reason I used area of the bore (roughly 4.5%) is because that seems to be a realistic difference based on my observations, the observations of others, and the overall comparison of differences in values we can measure (volume of cylinder, area of bore, energy, momentum, etc.). This is MY opinion.

You used 4.5% because it was the smallest difference you could dig out of your reloading manual and glom onto. There is a 10% difference in the area of the bore; .145 sq inches vs .160 sq inches. Do you understand the difference between area and diameter? Your 4.5% difference is in diameter not area. The volume difference is 1.73455 cubic inches for 12’ penetration vs 1.9255 cubic inches or 10%. Notwithstanding the “debunking”. Volume of the cylinder favors the larger diameter, area of the bore favors the larger diameter, energy is specious, and conservation of momentum is served as all the energy is absorbed in a non-elastic collision. So now we’re back to your opinion.


The bottom line (AGAIN) is that caliber wars never end and are never won by any side, because we don't have a law of incapacitation (or terminal ballistics) yet, so all we're ever going to do here is conjecture, argue, and debate. No conclusion.

I know the mantra.


You stick with your 45. I'll stick with my 44. I'll stick with my opinion that the 45 is 4.5% (roughly) better than the 44. (I'd have thought the 45 supporters would be happy a 44-supporter would agree with them, but I guess it's a matter of not agreeing ENOUGH...) [smilie=s:

More accurately, you stick with your opinion that 4.5% constitutes the only difference. I’ll stick with the mathematical reality that a .452” projectile punches a 10% larger cylinder than a .429”projectile. It’s not a matter of agreeing, it’s a matter of geometry, physics, mechanics and physiology.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Now with the- rolling eyes. Are you capable to write your thoughts? Or shall we just scribble pictures in the dirt and grunt. The occasional smiley is one thing and oft times humorous, but this is bordering on adolescence. If you expect me to take you seriously act like an adult.

I’m not at all tolerant of differing opinions that fly in the face of science, most especially a pundit who declares in capital letters only to slither under the rock of “we all have different opinions” for protection like a little girl. When you state something emphatically with capital letters, be prepared to support it with something more substantial than “in my opinion”.
Well, my apologies if utilizing the tools provided here on an internet forum for expressing oneself in the more limited environment we are in (than in person) offends you somehow. I didn't realize Marine E-9s could be so sensitive! How about instead of name-calling, you try to stick to the question at hand? (Or is your position so untenable that you must resort to that type of attack?)

But more importantly, the portion of your text I've emphasized above is a more telling aspect of your diatribe which I would like to explore. However, to do so requires following up with another portion of your post:



The biggest factor preventing you from discovering the law of Terminal Ballistics is your struggle with the reality of a larger hole.

I’m glad you brought up The Doc! I didn’t intend to name drop but since you wish to appeal to Dr. Fackler’s work. I’ve known, worked with, and conducted shot tests for Martin Fackler for more than 20 years and he would tell exactly what I’m about to tell you. We do have a “Law of Gunshot Wound Terminal Ballistics”. It’s more commonly known as physiology. Larger wounds create a higher probability of hemorrhagic shock, the precursor to primary shock. Larger wounds bleed more, larger wounds destroy and/or macerate more tissue, and larger wounds have a higher probability of disrupting nerve plexuses. These are the mechanisms of incapacitation. Do consult the medical professional of your choice. Short a complete detonation of the central nervous system or instantaneous hydraulic decompression, H.S. is the process by which a projectile does its evil work. Proper shot placement is always assumed axiomatic to any discussion of the merits of one caliber as opposed to another.
I’m aware you feel there is no “Law of Terminal Ballistics” but DoD and the medical community arrived at a different conclusion quite some time ago. Serious, legitimate wound ballistics researchers don’t just shoot bullets into ordnance gelatin, review static dimensions and ignore physiological principles nor do they rely on anecdotes from big game hunters, Elmer Keith or the general shooting public. Their work would never pass peer review or be accepted as valid in the scientific community.

The only measure of terminal ballistics is the wound. You’ve debunked nothing; you haven’t even made an intelligent argument with respect to the size of the wound. What you’ve managed is several paragraphs of pure drivel trying to avoid the central issue of the bigger hole. Initially it was a difference of opinion, but you quickly realized the hole is bigger in spite of your opinion. Next, you attempted to seize upon the confusion among laity over kinetic energy and momentum and added a healthy dose of obfuscation, but the larger hole remains. Then the feeble attempted to drag a shotgun into the fray, anything to avoid dealing with the bigger hole.

Some facts you ignore or, more to the point, selectively ignore, depending on whether my prior statements help or hurt your arguments:

1) I never said the 44 was better than the 45. Initially I said the difference wasn't worth the debate, and then when trying to quantify it, I asserted that my opinion is that the 45 Colt, loaded with equivalent bullets, was around 4-5% better. You still haven't proven that I'm wrong in my assertion. Show me where deer, men, kangaroos, whatever, run 10% shorter distance when shot with a 45 than a 44...
2) I have no struggle with the idea of a bigger hole. I quite understand it. I agree that all else being equal the 45 outperforms the 44. What seems to be the problem is you have a difficulty understanding the quantification of the real performance difference between the cited examples. (See the last sentence in Point 1 directly above.)
3) Please show me this Law of Terminal Ballistics. How about a link? How about some cited sources? I'm glad you know the Doc. I've followed him since he was controversial and most people disagreed with him. To make a long story short, I believe a lot of this on-going debate about terminal ballistics has compromised his opinions. You see, when he first started studying TB in the WBW back in the late 80s, he emphatically pointed out that there are multiple mechanisms of incapacitation, and he could only scientifically quantify two of them: Central Nervous System and Permanent Wound Cavity. He admitted that there were others, which were too difficult to study or quantify or understand. HE brought up some examples wherein a person was hit with what would be considered a non-lethal shot per the CNS or PWC points of view, yet they were immediately, or quickly incapacitated and/or died. HE also brought up examples of people being shot in very bad places with very large projectiles, who did not bleed out or get incapacitated quickly. I think he took so much grief from the non-scientific types, like M&S, that his arguments (much like I find yours) became more vehement; the emotionalism of which, in turn, inhibits a rational/logical evaluation of the hypothesis. You're statement that the only measure of TB is the wound shows you've followed down that same trail and have ignored what the Doc recognized way back when he started (and which he underemphasizes by totally ignoring nowadays).
4) I see you only have a few posts and recently joined here. That, combined with your bemoaning my use of smileys, caps, and other means of internet discussion forum communication leads me to the idea that you may be new to internet forums. Let me pass on a little advice: Be careful assuming you're the smartest person in the room. I'm sure with your rank and experience, you've seen more than your fair share of dead bodies. Well, I have too, and I've seen them in an arena where they are scientificaly disected and doctors (who have the same or better qualifications than Doctor Fackler) determine the cause of death. I've also been in the government for 20+ years, and have read the official reports that come from the WBW, etc. I combine that intelligence with information gleaned from personal experience as well as anecdotal reports from the hunting field, because I'm still remembering Dr. Fackler's original statements that there is a LOT we don't know about rapid incapacitation from gunshot wounds...
5) Lastly, we see how your opinion that we already have a "Law of Terminal Ballistics" really fails when you flee in the face of applying it to a shotgun slug or 458 Win Mag. The fact of the matter is, if we had a Law with some scientifically proven formula, there would be values we could apply to said formula and compare these different cartridges quite effectively. The fact of the matter is, we can't. In fact, if there was such a law, and it ascribed a 10% difference between the 45 and 44, I'd love to see you apply it's formulaic powers to the differences of the 12ga or 458 Win Mag or the 5.56NATO... How about the guy shot in the face with a 44 Magnum who lived long enough to kill two more people, while another guy took 50 rounds of 9mm and wasn't stopped until the third 12ga slug took out his spine? These are not examples intended to be compared to one another, but to be compared to your "Law of Incapacitation" you supposedly have.

So, really, what we have is you THINK there's a Law of Incapacitation/Stopping Power/Terminal Ballistics, and because you've "proven" your point, everyone should bow and say, "Yes, Master"? Sorry. Take your intolerant and insulting attitude somewhere else. The facts are that we don't have an Incapacitation Law yet. We have SOME excellent, measurable, ASPECTS of stopping power (including Permanent Wound Cavity, and some others), but we haven't wrapped it all up at 100% knowing it all. So, again, I agree that the 45 is better than the 44, I just think the difference is so small it isn't worth fighting over (as we've been doing, stupidly...). Go back and check my first post in this thread. My point to help the Original Poster (OP) then is still exactly the same as now, and completely just as valid:

If you don't reload, buy the 44, as there's widely available, high-power ammo for it (and most factory ammo for 45 Colt is very low-powered). If you reload, you can buy either, as the performance difference is minimal, but the 45 is a little better...

[Lloyd Smale]

Guys do me one big favor. Please dont teach the deer all this technical mumble jumble. When they find out ive been hunting them for years with guns some say arent enough they will absoultely quit wanting to die and ill start having to buy beef again. Then my wife will tell me i cant afford to buy new guns!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

WOW!

What a lot of words!

I already posted once that Ruger does not offer a Blackhawk "HUNTER" model in 45 . . . :Fire: :mrgreen:

[44man]

All of my conclusions are based on one thing only. No book reading, no energy figures, no shooting bottles of water or gelatin . They are based on what the damage is inside of a deer and how fast they die.
I refuse to get into math or anything else except what the boolit does to a deer. I have just shot too stinking many deer and each and every one can teach a hunter more then any book reading ever will.

[RobS]

WOW!

What a lot of words!

I already posted once that Ruger does not offer a Blackhawk "HUNTER" model in 45 . . . :Fire: :mrgreen:

And we are back on.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Master Guns, there's not many people that have earned the right to possess Force Recon hardware - you are one of the proud few to have earned that right. The Corps was diminished by your leave.

Catching brook trout is far more difficult than shooting deer – I wish you luck at that endeavor and may you enjoy your retirement.

Thanks, retired life is good.

Heavens no. I'm too a'scared of heights for Recon. Nothing that glamorous.

Basically an 0311 / 8532. The hardware rating comes from time as an LDO with MARSOC and MEU. I was just one spoke in a wheel, quickly replaced by a younger, faster, better looking spoke with little notice.

I've never caught a brook trout, we have Stripers and Smallmouth in the rivers here. This week past the CO made me take her to the National Seashore at Ft Pickens for post Labor Day bargins at the tourist shops. I borrowed a salt water rig and managed a few hours with crab and shrimp immitations. The specks don't tatse like gasoline anymore and triple tails are difficult as ever.

Top

[waksupi]

All of my conclusions are based on one thing only. No book reading, no energy figures, no shooting bottles of water or gelatin . They are based on what the damage is inside of a deer and how fast they die.
I refuse to get into math or anything else except what the boolit does to a deer. I have just shot too stinking many deer and each and every one can teach a hunter more then any book reading ever will.

Can we get an "Amen", brothers and sisters?

[donjose]

123.DieselBenz there are several new in the box Ruger Blackhawk Hunters 45 still around.I was told by a distributor of where to go find them.He said Ruger was cleaning out there shelves.The reason I passed on buying one was because a well know Custom Six Gun Builder said he had seen more than his fair share, that had major problems with the way the barrel threads were cut compared to the reciever threads.


Jason

[waksupi]

I just scrolled on down this topic.

I am going to advise all parties, read the Terms of Service of this board.

Personal attacks are not allowed here, and you can be removed from this board in short order.

I suggest you go back and edit any insults you may have posted.

[ole 5 hole group]

Waksupi – I think you just put a damper on this fine thread. Myself, I see no personal insults in this thread and see no reason why anyone needs to edit any wording. Spirited is one thing – insulting is a horse of another color and I think most non-political correct individuals can tell the difference. No disrespect intended.

[Whitworth]

Waksupi – I think you just put a damper on this fine thread. Myself, I see no personal insults in this thread and see no reason why anyone needs to edit any wording. Spirited is one thing – insulting is a horse of another color and I think most non-political correct individuals can tell the difference. No disrespect intended.


I have to agree with you.

[Matt_G]

WOW!

What a lot of words!

I already posted once that Ruger does not offer a Blackhawk "HUNTER" model in 45 . . . :Fire: :mrgreen:

Shawn, as you say they aren't offering it currently, but it has been offered in the past.
From post #2 of this thread:

Regarding the 45 vs the 44 super Blackhawk Hunter...............the 45 colt will be tougher to find no doubt as there were a lot less of these made. Lipsey, a company, had these models put together exclusively for them some time back and to put numbers to it there were 603 of the standard 45 colt Super Blackhawk hunters and 279 45 colt Super Blackhawk Hunter Bisleys produced. You can still find the standard Super Blackhawk Hunter floating around on Gunbroker, but the Super Blackhawk Hunter Bisley model seems to be one that doesn't show up very often.

[btroj]

I agree with Waksupi. He wants to make sure things don't get out of hand. It is a very fine line that separates spirited debate and mud slinging.
Personally, I think this whole argument is silly. Use what you want, both will work. In the end, it is up to YOU to make a killing shot.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill certainly give another amen to that statement pal! Calculators and magazine articles dont kill deer bullets do.
All of my conclusions are based on one thing only. No book reading, no energy figures, no shooting bottles of water or gelatin . They are based on what the damage is inside of a deer and how fast they die.
I refuse to get into math or anything else except what the boolit does to a deer. I have just shot too stinking many deer and each and every one can teach a hunter more then any book reading ever will.

[MakeMineA10mm]

All of my conclusions are based on one thing only. No book reading, no energy figures, no shooting bottles of water or gelatin . They are based on what the damage is inside of a deer and how fast they die.
I refuse to get into math or anything else except what the boolit does to a deer. I have just shot too stinking many deer and each and every one can teach a hunter more then any book reading ever will.
And most here, who have read your threads and seen your photos would agree you have a fair share of experience to base your beliefs off of. And, I think those opinions are just as valid for the purpose of the OP to learn something on how to pick his caliber.

Unfortunately, the thread devolved into a caliber war. I even warned against it, and then tripped on my own landmine... It happens... :groner:

The point where I'd disagree with you is that: on the off-topic issue of coming up with a Theory/Law of Incapacitation/Terminal Ballistics, real-life experience doesn't quantify or scientifically address the issue. That's where the MGSgt and I have gotten sideways...


I just scrolled on down this topic.

I am going to advise all parties, read the Terms of Service of this board.

Personal attacks are not allowed here, and you can be removed from this board in short order.

I suggest you go back and edit any insults you may have posted.
If I've posted anything inappropriate, let me know, and I'll edit it. I feel (doesn't mean I'm right, and I'm fully willing to publicly accept an objective 3rd-party's opinion) that my comments have only been direct responses to my adversary's attacks, and that they were not insulting, per se.


I agree with Waksupi. He wants to make sure things don't get out of hand. It is a very fine line that separates spirited debate and mud slinging.
Personally, I think this whole argument is silly. Use what you want, both will work. In the end, it is up to YOU to make a killing shot.

I appreciate this comment as well. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt (from other gun-boards, over similar issues - usually whether the 10mm beats the 45ACP :p ). Even made the point myself, early on in this thread. Should've taken my own advice, eh?

I guess I should just be smart about it, cease posting to this thread, and resort to the use of the ignore-user feature for the first time in 10 years...

[donjose]

MakeMineA10mm
I dont think you need to stop posting on this thread at all. I know nothing about cast boolits or big bore pistols and I have gotten more from yours and Lloyds and 44man
than the drawn out technical text book answer.There is an old saying those who do,do and those who cant teach :)

Jason

[waksupi]

No one needs to stop posting, but the Terms of Service are not open to debate.

[jwp475]

MasterGunnerySergeant, You are spot on!!! Working with Dr Fackler must have been way cool and VERY educational.

I love to study Terminal ballistics and I have found that the good Dr. is spot on in his findings. As to Foot Pound of Energy, the numbers are irrelevant to the ranking of terminal effectiveness and that is for sure and for certain

[RP]

If iam feeling like a cowboy I pick up my 45LC rifle and pistols, If iam feeling like dirty Harry I pick up my 44s, If iam feeling army I pick up my 45 ACP, I like them all thats why I have them as I heard a guy say one time Dont be hateing.

[Whitworth]

MasterGunnerySergeant, You are spot on!!! Working with Dr Fackler must have been way cool and VERY educational.

I love to study Terminal ballistics and I have found that the good Dr. is spot on in his findings. As to Foot Pound of Energy, the numbers are irrelevant to the ranking of terminal effectiveness and that is for sure and for certain

+ 1 I couldn't agree more.

[Dean D.]

Ok gang, several Moderators have checked in here with warnings. In case you may not have read the rules you can do so here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/misc.php?do=showrules
(A link to these rules is found in a small box on the lower left hand side of each page titled "Posting Rules")

This is the paragraph being referred to:

We discuss some controversial topics from time to time and tempers sometimes get the better of people. When you feel your temper rising, take some time off and do something else before you post. It is easy to post something in haste that is poorly stated and emotion driven. Instead, take time to think rationally then state your case as fluently as possible. That will go a lot further in proving your point than name calling and emotional tirades. Abrasive, aggressive and caustic posts will be removed.

By all means, continue the debate, within these rules.

This is not about being Politically Correct, it's about following the rules of conduct at this privately owned forum. Ken's house, Ken's rules. Nuff said.

[44man]

I have to agree with this. Never, ever get angry. Respect everyone's opinions. Guys here are still the greatest there are.
Some can disagree and that is healthy debate. No anger---PLEASE.

[Whitworth]

I have to agree with this. Never, ever get angry. Respect everyone's opinions. Guys here are still the greatest there are.
Some can disagree and that is healthy debate. No anger---PLEASE.

Shut up, Jim.



Just kidding! :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Now what did I say? :veryconfu

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

And most here, who have read your threads and seen your photos would agree you have a fair share of experience to base your beliefs off of. And, I think those opinions are just as valid for the purpose of the OP to learn something on how to pick his caliber.

Unfortunately, the thread devolved into a caliber war. I even warned against it, and then tripped on my own landmine... It happens... :groner:

The point where I'd disagree with you is that: on the off-topic issue of coming up with a Theory/Law of Incapacitation/Terminal Ballistics, real-life experience doesn't quantify or scientifically address the issue. That's where the MGSgt and I have gotten sideways...


If I've posted anything inappropriate, let me know, and I'll edit it. I feel (doesn't mean I'm right, and I'm fully willing to publicly accept an objective 3rd-party's opinion) that my comments have only been direct responses to my adversary's attacks, and that they were not insulting, per se.



I appreciate this comment as well. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt (from other gun-boards, over similar issues - usually whether the 10mm beats the 45ACP :p ). Even made the point myself, early on in this thread. Should've taken my own advice, eh?

I guess I should just be smart about it, cease posting to this thread, and resort to the use of the ignore-user feature for the first time in 10 years...

With respect to the content of your comments, I am the only party relevant to determining whether or not they are insulting. Thus far, you posted nothing insulting.

I was beginning to rather enjoy the rumble, so to speak. I like people who can hold their own, and tend to respect those who refuse to wither under my, oft times relentless and forceful personality. Well done.

For what it's worth; you would be precisely the type individual that I would prefer to have in my command when it “hit the fan", in spite of your fondness for spit ball weaponry.

Semper Fi,

Top

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

MasterGunnerySergeant, You are spot on!!! Working with Dr Fackler must have been way cool and VERY educational.

I love to study Terminal ballistics and I have found that the good Dr. is spot on in his findings. As to Foot Pound of Energy, the numbers are irrelevant to the ranking of terminal effectiveness and that is for sure and for certain

T'was indeed enlightening. He made me a convert.

There is a show on History Channel, 'Chasing Mummies", I think. The professor in that show reminds me of Doc.

Top

[txpete]

kind of reminds me...................I worked on cobra's for over 30 years and it seemed I always got a pilot that would come back and on a post flight tell me what was wrong"with my bird" and how to fix it.I would just take a chaw of redman spit and say yes "sir" .I would spend hours bore sighting the guns on each bird and I always had atleast one pilot that said the guns were off I didn't qualify.yes sir...spit.. then one day my CWO said pete lets go I climbed in the gunners seat pulled pitch and shot the course and the guns were dead on.
so the point is sometimes its time to take that chaw of redman spit and say nothing and smile.this is one of those times.
pete....spit

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/acft%20II/IMG_0005.jpg

[donjose]

With this many Replies and Views we should make this a sticky!!!!

:Fire:

[ole 5 hole group]

With respect to the content of your comments, I am the only party relevant to determining whether or not they are insulting. Thus far, you posted nothing insulting.

I was beginning to rather enjoy the rumble, so to speak. I like people who can hold their own, and tend to respect those who refuse to wither under my, oft times relentless and forceful personality. Well done.

For what it's worth; you would be precisely the type individual that I would prefer to have in my command when it “hit the fan", in spite of your fondness for spit ball weaponry.Semper Fi,Top

I truely don't understand Master Guns, being nice-nice when you got bullets and the others don't - ground checking is never a bad idea - but I guess the rumble has to stop sometime. I learned from your posts and now better understand the "why's" - Thank you. Those 0.429's just keep coming back for an **** kicking, I think they like it that way:kidding:

[Whitworth]

Those 0.429's just keep coming back for an **** kicking, I think they like it that way:kidding:


I think they have an inferiority complex -- being that they're small.....:bigsmyl2:

[Changeling]

I think they have an inferiority complex -- being that they're small.....:bigsmyl2:


Marko thats the first time I've heard you expound in a comical direction, that was AWESOME and also funny as HELL, :bigsmyl2:

[Whitworth]

Marko thats the first time I've heard you expound in a comical direction, that was AWESOME and also funny as HELL, :bigsmyl2:

Stick around, it gets worse! :bigsmyl2:

[tuckerdog]

both are fine rounds availibility in your area for components should b the deciding factor,the critter cant tell how dead it is by the caliber on the headstamp

[Lloyd Smale]

Well said. 44man and i clash as much as any two guys on this fourm but we know each other well enough to know that were both bull headed old sobs and we respect each others opinions. Why? becaus they come from burning powder and killing animals. We all know theres more then one way to skin a cat and thats what this forum is about. If one man had all the answers he sure wouldnt need to come here to learn. If a guy keeps at least a somewhat open mind he can learn even from an opinion he doesnt totatly agree with. As to mild insults, were all adults and its part of everyday life and if you dont have the guts to take a bit you aint much of a man. Hell my wife gives me more everyday then ive got from years on here.
I have to agree with this. Never, ever get angry. Respect everyone's opinions. Guys here are still the greatest there are.
Some can disagree and that is healthy debate. No anger---PLEASE.

[Whitworth]

Well said. 44man and i clash as much as any two guys on this fourm but we know each other well enough to know that were both bull headed old sobs and we respect each others opinions. Why? becaus they come from burning powder and killing animals. We all know theres more then one way to skin a cat and thats what this forum is about. If one man had all the answers he sure wouldnt need to come here to learn. If a guy keeps at least a somewhat open mind he can learn even from an opinion he doesnt totatly agree with. As to mild insults, were all adults and its part of everyday life and if you dont have the guts to take a bit you aint much of a man. Hell my wife gives me more everyday then ive got from years on here.


Lloyd, you're only a few years older than me -- you're not old (I keep trying to convince myself and I figure that the more I repeat it, the more likely I will begin to believe it). 44man, on the other hand......(sorry Jim! :smile:)

[Matt_G]

(I keep trying to convince myself and I figure that the more I repeat it, the more likely I will begin to believe it).

That's the path to the dark side Luke. :p
Liberals been doing that for decades, look where it got 'em.

[MakeMineA10mm]

With respect to the content of your comments, I am the only party relevant to determining whether or not they are insulting. Thus far, you posted nothing insulting.

I was beginning to rather enjoy the rumble, so to speak. I like people who can hold their own, and tend to respect those who refuse to wither under my, oft times relentless and forceful personality. Well done.

For what it's worth; you would be precisely the type individual that I would prefer to have in my command when it “hit the fan", in spite of your fondness for spit ball weaponry.

Semper Fi,

Top

Well, that's high praise indeed! Thanks Top. No offense on this end either, even though you insist on carrying around that big, archiac weaponry... :drinks:

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

I truely don't understand Master Guns, being nice-nice when you got bullets and the others don't - ground checking is never a bad idea - but I guess the rumble has to stop sometime. I learned from your posts and now better understand the "why's" - Thank you. Those 0.429's just keep coming back for an **** kicking, I think they like it that way:kidding:

I hear you brother, but you have to give the man some credit. He did manage to get a little wood on the ball once or twice. That's what made it fun for me and presumably interesting, if 3800 views are any indication.

Top

[OBIII]

Just so you know, MasterGunnerySergeant is a MARINE. This means that he is NOT an E-9. he is a Master Gunnery Sergeant. E-9's reside in the Army and other branches.

Staff Sergeant, USMC

[Whitworth]

Just so you know, MasterGunnerySergeant is a MARINE. This means that he is NOT an E-9. he is a Master Gunnery Sergeant. E-9's reside in the Army and other branches.

Staff Sergeant, USMC

E-9 is simply a designation of rank in all of the services. You are a Staff Sgt and therefore an E-6.

[44man]

I don't care what you are, a Marine, a Grunt, a Sailor, or a Fly Boy, you are the best! :drinks:
I wish every person in this country had to serve BEFORE going to some liberal school. Maybe two year old's should be drafted and taught at the start what America is all about. Teachers OUT, drill sergeants IN!

[txpete]

I don't care what you are, a Marine, a Grunt, a Sailor, or a Fly Boy, you are the best! :drinks:
I wish every person in this country had to serve BEFORE going to some liberal school. Maybe two year old's should be drafted and taught at the start what America is all about. Teachers OUT, drill sergeants IN!

+1.... talk about some crying liberals if they ever started the draft back up.:smile:

[donjose]

But wait everyone wanted OBAMA for the change, I hope everyone gets there fair share of him looks like there will be no cost of living increase for Social Security again this year.I think maybe we should start educating people again so they understand how we got freedom in this country in the first place!!!

Jason

[Blammer]

+1.... talk about some crying liberals if they ever started the draft back up.:smile:

maybe them liberals would all leave for Canada or Mexico. :)

we could hope.... :)

[robertbank]

Excuse me! You can keep your brain dead Liberals and right wing wackos south of the 49th thank-you. We got enough problems on our hands without importing more.[smilie=s:

I'll throw my vote for the .45LC. Love the cartridge. Next buy on my list is the Ruger Redhwk 4.2" in .45..

Take Care

Bob

[Whitworth]

Excuse me! You can keep your brain dead Liberals and right wing wackos south of the 49th thank-you. We got enough problems on our hands without importing more.[smilie=s:

I'll throw my vote for the .45LC. Love the cartridge. Next buy on my list is the Ruger Redhwk 4.2" in .45..

Take Care

Bob

I don't blame you, we don't want 'em either.......:bigsmyl2:

[MakeMineA10mm]

Just so you know, MasterGunnerySergeant is a MARINE. This means that he is NOT an E-9. he is a Master Gunnery Sergeant. E-9's reside in the Army and other branches.

Staff Sergeant, USMC


E-9 is simply a designation of rank in all of the services. You are a Staff Sgt and therefore an E-6.

Actually E-9 is a pay-grade. This paygrade system was instituted by the military, but Congress stepped in and decided that all personnel should receive corresponding pay to their responsibilities, regardless of which branch they serve in, which lead to the changes of equalizing and uniforming the paygrade system amongst the various branches.

Due to increasing joint operations, they began to be looked at as an easy way to determine seniority of members of different services, without resorting to looking at a chart of the 50 or so names/insignia of all the different enlisted ranks in the five services.

I recognize and understand Marine pride, OBIII, but you know what I meant... :wink:

[500bfrman]

Next buy on my list is the Ruger Redhwk 4.2" in .45..
Bob

I will get my 4 inch redhawk out of layaway next month. amazingly enough for this thread in 44.[smilie=1:

[Whitworth]

I will get my 4 inch redhawk out of layaway next month. amazingly enough for this thread in 44.[smilie=1:


You won't be sorry!

[OBIII]

E-9 is simply a designation of rank in all of the services. You are a Staff Sgt and therefore an E-6.

Army, huh?

[Whitworth]

Army, huh?

No, a Marine. 0311 -- 03 walk-a lot to be exact. Pay grades are pay grades. Go look at your old LES forms (Leave and Earning Statements) and it will clearly list your pay grade. My DD214 clearly lists it as well.

[OBIII]

No, a Marine. 0311 -- 03 walk-a lot to be exact. Pay grades are pay grades. Go look at your old LES forms (Leave and Earning Statements) and it will clearly list your pay grade. My DD214 clearly lists it as well.

Come on, if you were a Marine you know that while the E-9 is a pay grade designation, Senior Marines did not like to be referred to as an E-7. It was Gunnery Sergeant or nothing. I think that we all know what the designations mean, but in my day if you said someone was a Master Gunnery Sergeant, you knew that he was an E-9. At least that's the way it was during my 8 1/2 years in the Corp. It's a Marine thing. :>)

[Whitworth]

Come on, if you were a Marine you know that while the E-9 is a pay grade designation, Senior Marines did not like to be referred to as an E-7. It was Gunnery Sergeant or nothing. I think that we all know what the designations mean, but in my day if you said someone was a Master Gunnery Sergeant, you knew that he was an E-9. At least that's the way it was during my 8 1/2 years in the Corp. It's a Marine thing. :>)

Of course not, but who in the hell called him "E-9?" And yes, I was a Marine, and not in some support role either. Did someone actually address the Master Guns as E-9? Or are we making much ado about absolutely nothing?

[OBIII]

I just think that we are having a debate about much ado about nothing. When I went into the Marines, my dream choices in basic were Infantry, Armor, or Artillery. My evaluator looked at me and said, son, with these scores you can be anything you want to be. How about computers or electronics? I said, Infantry, Armor, Artillery. I wound up as a 2841 Ground Radio Repairman, obtaining a 2861 MOS after re-enlisting. So, even tho I wanted to be a grunt, I wound up in support. Probably would have had a better chance if I had gone in for two years, rather than four (my recruiter talked me out of signing up for six). Someone, in one of the original posts made the comment about E-9, and I just had to open my alligator mouth. Just playin Marine.

Semper Fi Whitworth

[Whitworth]

I just think that we are having a debate about much ado about nothing. When I went into the Marines, my dream choices in basic were Infantry, Armor, or Artillery. My evaluator looked at me and said, son, with these scores you can be anything you want to be. How about computers or electronics? I said, Infantry, Armor, Artillery. I wound up as a 2841 Ground Radio Repairman, obtaining a 2861 MOS after re-enlisting. So, even tho I wanted to be a grunt, I wound up in support. Probably would have had a better chance if I had gone in for two years, rather than four (my recruiter talked me out of signing up for six). Someone, in one of the original posts made the comment about E-9, and I just had to open my alligator mouth. Just playin Marine.

Semper Fi Whitworth

Just sent you a PM, Marine. I know what you are talking about. Same thing happened to me with my ASVAB (?) test scores, but the dummy I am insisted on the grunts! Yeah, I'm a jarhead through and through! :bigsmyl2:

[txpete]

blah,blah,blah you grunts can talk all that grunt you want but when you got in a bad jam you were calling in the snakes:kidding::p

pete

[Whitworth]

blah,blah,blah you grunts can talk all that grunt you want but when you got in a bad jam you were calling in the snakes:kidding::p

pete


I would like to publically thank the jockstraps, er I mean support! LOL! God bless the Cobras! :bigsmyl2:

[txpete]

now your talking :D.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/acft%20II/adca.jpg

[Whitworth]

Great photo! Still my favorite bird!

[donjose]

Remember the Marines are a Dept of the Navy
The Mens Dept!!

Semper Fidelis

[cottonstalk]

Might be the mens dept but do you know why they always ask for a ride?Because they aren't smart enough to get there on their own.

[Whitworth]

Might be the mens dept but do you know why they always ask for a ride?Because they aren't smart enough to get there on their own.

Take that beachhead, sailor! Words you will never hear.......LOL!

Hey, someone needs to drive the bus.

[cottonstalk]

Now you're old enough to know the truth whit,not everyone rides on the short bus.hahahaha

You take the beachhead because the battleships and aircraft turned the forest into a pretty sandy beach,ever wonder what happened to the trees?

[Whitworth]

Now you're old enough to know the truth whit,not everyone rides on the short bus.hahahaha

You take the beachhead because the battleships and aircraft turned the forest into a pretty sandy beach,ever wonder what happened to the trees?

Yeah, tell that tall tale to the boys who fought at Iwo Jima........ Naval gunfire is nice, but it takes boots on the ground to take the realestate.

[txpete]

and they couldn't have done it without air support :wink:.
a team effort is everything.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2010/03/18/captured-blog-the-pacific-and-adjacent-theaters/

[felix]

Bob, Arkansas is full of the right wing whackos and you can guess were abouts within the State the known ones are in and about. You liking the 45LC can be somewhat abridged by your affinity for the ACP, right? Can you spell Wilson's? ... felix

[felix]

With all the special force groups known and unknown, it must be quite confusing who does what when and where anymore. I am quite sure pay grade does not enter the equation. I saw a lot of this during my tenure (1967) at Fort Leavenworth during the computerization of war gaming exercises for the ????. I was not in the need to know circle about who was in charge of what, but only what instruments which can be drawn upon for the various directed simulations. Included every type of vehicle/ordinance you can think of. ... felix

[Whitworth]

and they couldn't have done it without air support :wink:.
a team effort is everything.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2010/03/18/captured-blog-the-pacific-and-adjacent-theaters/

You are absolutely correct, but you still need to take the ground. I welcome all of the support.

[Matt_G]

and they couldn't have done it without air support :wink:.
a team effort is everything.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2010/03/18/captured-blog-the-pacific-and-adjacent-theaters/

Thanks for that link txpete.
I'm kind of surprised the Denver Post allowed that on their site considering how liberal that rag is...

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Come on, if you were a Marine you know that while the E-9 is a pay grade designation, Senior Marines did not like to be referred to as an E-7. It was Gunnery Sergeant or nothing. I think that we all know what the designations mean, but in my day if you said someone was a Master Gunnery Sergeant, you knew that he was an E-9. At least that's the way it was during my 8 1/2 years in the Corp. It's a Marine thing. :>)

Technically this is correct. I am a Master Gunnery Sergeant, that is my rank. My pay grade is E-9 Over 30.

The Master Gunnery Sergeant is unique to the Marine Corps. We are considered specialists in our MOS and for the most part spend our careers within our specialty. Mine was 03xx

A Sergeant Major is an E-9 as well but is considered a generalist and fills a command/administrative billet at the battalion level and higher.

Master Gunnery Sergeants and Seargents Major are peers, equal in rank. However, Sergeants Major usually but not always occupy a senior position by virtue of the command billet. With respect to discipline and morale of the particular unit the Sgt Major is senior regardless the time in grade. In all other settings, if the Master Gunnery Sergeant is senior by virtue of time in grade- ordinary customs and courtesies apply.

One other slight difference is, one may properly address a Command Sergeant Major (SgtMajMC) under certain circumstances as 'sir' or usually just Sgt Maj. The only proper address for a Master Gunnery Sergeant is just that. Master Gunns is informal and usually reserved for peers or seniors but it isn't proper. Top is sometimes used by juniors in informal settings but most Master Gunnery Sergeants don't allow it. I like 'Top'

Top

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

blah,blah,blah you grunts can talk all that grunt you want but when you got in a bad jam you were calling in the snakes:kidding::p

pete

The only problem was keeping them on target. lol

But there is not argument from me over the superiority of the mini gun vs .45lc at any range or any load level!!

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Take that beachhead, sailor! Words you will never hear.......LOL!

Hey, someone needs to drive the bus.

I'd sure hate to take a beach without the 16" and 8"-38's on those busses.

[Whitworth]

I'd sure hate to take a beach without the 16" and 8"-38's on those busses.


Couldn't agree more, but I still need to stir the pot every now and again -- keeps everyone on their toes!:mrgreen:

[txpete]

The only problem was keeping them on target. lol

But there is not argument from me over the superiority of the mini gun vs .45lc at any range or any load level!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/acft%20II/IMG_0042.jpg

as aircraft weapons I bore sighted those weapons to a gnats ass.that said I had no control on the finger of the officer in the front seat :bigsmyl2:.

[Whitworth]

Very cool, Pete!

[txpete]

thanks did it for 21 years in the army then another 9 years for a defence contractor.now just a full time bum.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/acft%20II/Scan10001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/acft%20II/IMG_00102.jpg

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Army Aviation. Gotta love um

[Lloyd Smale]

but pete id have to spend 10 hours a day loading just to be able to shoot it for a few seconds a day.

[txpete]

and on a sad note LC 7.62 brass after going thru a mini-gun is trash.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/acft%20II/1ab.jpg

[Whitworth]

That is sad, Pete.....

[odis]

Technically this is correct. I am a Master Gunnery Sergeant, that is my rank. My pay grade is E-9 Over 30.

The Master Gunnery Sergeant is unique to the Marine Corps. We are considered specialists in our MOS and for the most part spend our careers within our specialty. Mine was 03xx

A Sergeant Major is an E-9 as well but is considered a generalist and fills a command/administrative billet at the battalion level and higher.

Master Gunnery Sergeants and Seargents Major are peers, equal in rank. However, Sergeants Major usually but not always occupy a senior position by virtue of the command billet. With respect to discipline and morale of the particular unit the Sgt Major is senior regardless the time in grade. In all other settings, if the Master Gunnery Sergeant is senior by virtue of time in grade- ordinary customs and courtesies apply.

One other slight difference is, one may properly address a Command Sergeant Major (SgtMajMC) under certain circumstances as 'sir' or usually just Sgt Maj. The only proper address for a Master Gunnery Sergeant is just that. Master Gunns is informal and usually reserved for peers or seniors but it isn't proper. Top is sometimes used by juniors in informal settings but most Master Gunnery Sergeants don't allow it. I like 'Top'

TopJeff Cooper claimed that the Gunny is the highest rank in the world, even higher then the commandant

[pmeisel]

The best senior NCOs are respected by all who are wise, especially wise officers....

[Whitworth]

The best senior NCOs are respected by all who are wise, especially wise officers....


Yes indeed......

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

and on a sad note LC 7.62 brass after going thru a mini-gun is trash.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/acft%20II/1ab.jpg

Why is that?