Finally used my shaper!

[Bret4207]

A little OT, but after 10 years or so I finally used my Atlas 7" shaper on an actual project, not just screwing around learning how it worked. Nothing special, just needed a 1/2"x5/8" key. Started filing and then the little light bulb went on over my head. Tossed the 3/4" square stock in the vise and in no time I had a very workable key.

Little sucker sure works slick.

[redneckdan]

Nice. They had one here on campus in one of the machine shops I worked in my freshman year. The shop foreman had no clue what it was. One of the enterprise teams was calling around trying to find a broach for internal splines that didn't cost more than a years tution. I pulled that sucker out, did a normal service, set up the dividing head and had 'er done within the hour. Foreman was like, "i didn't know that thing actually did anything..." [smilie=b:

[elk hunter]

Bret,

The more you use it the more uses you will find for it. You can do exceedingly nice flat work as in bullet mould blocks or breech blocks and breech block slots for single shot actions. Internal and external key ways, splines, contour shaping.

[jmh54738]

FWIW, with my 7" shaper, I cut keyways on the back stroke. When done the normal way, the tool digs in and gouges.
John

[Buckshot]

............Just check out Youtube. Lot's a nifty shaper stuff there. I think it was on the HSM website a couple years ago a guy had a video of a BIG shaper working. They had a screen set up in front to stop the chips. That clapper box must have had a 3/4" wide tool in it. You could see the chip curl up in front, just as red as could be. At the end of each pass that chip would fly off and hit the screen with an actual thump!

............Buckshot

[Marvin S]

What no picture? We had two of them back when I went to Vo-Tec, it was fun to just watch the chips spit out.

[Bret4207]

Pictures? My little remaining pride prevents me from letting the crowd know what a pig stye my garage or gun room are. Between my natural procrastination, the kids, the grandkid, the normal emergencies of farm life and my wifes obsession with filling "my" space with "her" stuff...well, best you remain blissfully ignorant of this miserable wretches condition in that area...

[theperfessor]

Brett, good for you for finally putting your shaper to work. There are just some things that a shaper does better than any other tool.

[El Bango]

OMG I am green with envy,some day I'll luck into one and start building single shot actions

[arjacobson]

I have wanted one of those for years.. Nice find!

[MtGun44]

Hey, Perfessor -

THATS how John Browning intended the 1911 trigger slots to be cut, I'll bet. Remember the
discussion of how to make that cut if you are making your own 1911?

I saw one years ago in metal shop and have never even seen one run, but I at least have
a rough idea how it works. Am I right that a shaper would do those trigger ways real
well?

Bill

[whitey hanson]

If anyone in the Eastern Colorado should want or need a 12 inch shaper not much bigger than a Atlas. I have a nice one. For sale or trade. Whitey
PM or E-mail whanson@plainstel.com

[theperfessor]

Bill -

Yeah, I've got a 7" South Bend, and I'm pretty sure if I had the desire I could figure out how to make the tooling to cut the trigger slots in a 1911.

When I first started my career as a machinist I was assigned to running planers. Very much similar to a shaper except a table reciprocated with the part on it. Single point tools held in a clapper box, etc. With special tooling we cut internal flat surfaces to some some pretty close tolerances, keyways, gear tooth profiles on gear segments, all sorts of things like that. Once we put a complete lathe (16 feet between centers) on the table and recut the bedways.

After enough experiences such as those you learn to be able to cut almost anything with the right tooling.

I'd bet that the 1911 was designed to have the slots broached in production - it would be quicker, easier and more consistently accurate, but as you know custom broaches aren't cheap! I wouldn't be surprised if I learned that the prototypes had the slots cut with a shaper or keyway cutter.

I once saw an add-on tool that would bolt to the lug on the other end of the ram on a Bridgeport type mill that was a powered vertical keyway cutter. You could swing the ram around on the column and cut keyways and slots.

The most recent thing I used my shaper for was prepping some stainless steel Charpy samples for the Engineering Department's material test lab.

[dragonrider]

"I once saw an add-on tool that would bolt to the lug on the other end of the ram on a Bridgeport type mill that was a powered vertical keyway cutter. You could swing the ram around on the column and cut keyways and slots."

That is called an "E" head, I have one on my Bridgeport, paid $100 for it, very handy tool. I use it to cut the extractor slots in the TCR monoblocs I make. It has 4" of stroke. I have been looking for a small shapper for a long time, 7" would be ok, 12 would be better but room in my shop is at a premium.

[Johnk454]

There's an old saying "you can make anything on a shaper except money". Dunno. I have a neat 7" Atlas myself that hasn't seen much use - yet. Very interesting machine with lots of potential in our hobby. One day... perhaps a scratch built falling block.

http://home.comcast.net/~johnk454/shaper4web.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~johnk454/obeliskweb.jpg

[Dutchman]

Here's a video of my 7" South Bend in action. Poor video as it was done with my digital camera in video mode.

http://youtu.be/K8fRmlr8Opg

Dutch

[uscra112]

When I first started my career as a machinist I was assigned to running planers. Very much similar to a shaper except a table reciprocated with the part on it.

My first job in the machine tool industry was at a company where they had a planer with a seventy foot table, seven or eight feet wide The old-timers taught me that the planer was not only the best way to cut a machine bed straight, (true - a planer can cut a line straighter than it is), but it also was less likely to warp the work, since the heat of the cutting was distributed end to end, rather than concentrated in one spot as a milling process does. I saw this proved right later on in my career.

Shapers and planers were money-makers in the days when making and maintaining milling cutters was an expensive toolroom proposition. The single point lathe tool was cheap, used very little precious tool steel, was easy to make, and easy to resharpen. I dearly wish I had a planer. Had I room for one, there would be one - they go cheap when they come up for sale at all.

[Brithunter]

Here in the UK a shaper is worth only what it will fetch when weighed in for scrap.

In our workshop is an 18" shaper it has not been used in years. Partly because dad put so much stuff in there you cannot get to it properly. Hopefully after selling three lathes we can rearrange things a bit better.

[Bill*]

What no picture? We had two of them back when I went to Vo-Tec, it was fun to just watch the chips spit out.
Yes, those nice big blue smoking ones that are shaped like a spring! Well, they're only fun till one of them gets stuck in that little indentation where your neck meets your chest :oops:
(yes I did and it took off quite a chunk when I instantly brushed it off)
No bleeding BTW, seared to white flesh instantly

[Boz330]

I was in the machinist apprentice program at R.K.LeBlond right before they shut it down and we had to make a set of angled sliding parallel blocks on a shaper. A real project that was pretty difficult.
They did the lathe bed ways on the huge shapers. IIRC there 3 across and I don't remember how many end to end. Once the machine started the operator just sat back and read a magazine or book. The real work was in the set up.

Bob

[MtGun44]

Interesting machines. I really enjoyed Dutchman's video, since I have seen the
machines a few times, but never actually in operation.

I have no doubt that for any real quantity, a broach is a way better solution to the 1911
trigger ways, but for the original few prototypes and for a home machinist finishing or
completely making a 1911 frame, I think this might be the way to go. The tool might be a bit
of a chore to design and make to reach back in there, tho.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes you've got to love the crossfeed mechinism on Dutch's shaper it is adjustable for the maount of feed per hit it takes.

I have only seen a Shaper running once in my career, It was a hydraulic I think a Cincinati, and it was a big one maybe 12 feet long. I remember walking in the shop and wondering what was burning? then I saw the pile of blue chips the size of Curly Q French Fries burning the oil out of the floor!

This thing was vicious and it was taking a cut that was 1/4 deep by .060 a pass about 10" long. I watched it for about 15 minutes as it worked it's way across the part and then the operator came back and reset it for the next pass.

This was an example of brute force metal removal. It was essentially a 'Linier Lathe.'

That Bridgeport attachment is called a "Cherrying Head" and they are readily available in the used market. I have never used one but I do see uses for one, and if it fell in my lap I'd damn sure take it.

Cutting linier dovetails in sight bases would be one usage I could think of. and cutting small internal keyways in small gears as well as cutting the gear teeth would be others.

I have never needed such capibilities as I have always found other ways to do this type of work but I also live near LA and the 4 zillion different shops there that do virtually anything you could possibly need. So I have always farmed out stuff I couldn't do in house.

Still they are cool machines and if you didin't live near a big city that has the resources then you could solve lots of problems with a shaper. Making the mortise for the bolt on a single shot rifle would be a good place to start.

Randy

[dragonrider]

The device the Perfessor mentioned is not a cherrying head, it is as I said an "E" head. They are completely different in operation. This link describes them both.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/bridgeport/page4.html

This link shows the operation of a cherrying head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMP3xpAp0XU

and this one shows a slotting or E-head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBDqP07qvhQ

[Lefty SRH]

We had one in school that just sat there. None of us knew what it was til someone "just had to know and see it run" and bugged the hell out of the instructor. He set it up with a big block of steel, turned it on and hit the "GO" lever. The 1st BIG chip came off that thing and many students took a couple more steps back. Pretty neat machine. It was as old as the hills. I remember the instructor saying it came from the time era where all shop machinery had one monster drive belt that came from the ceiling to power all the machines. Of coarse it wasn't like that in school, but the main pulley was still on the shaper. I think I remember it having a 3/4" to 1" tool in the clapper box.

[Bret4207]

My thread has taken on a life of it's own! GOOD!

I was at the feed store Saturday and ran into a farmer I haven't seen in 3-4 years. Guy has some of the nicest Jerseys you ever saw. Anyway we got talking, as farmers do, and he's got a mess of lathes and mills he collected when he lived in New Britain, Conn. Told me to stop by and see if he had anything I could use! I may end up with the mill I need for the small engine shop and a larger lather than my poor ;little 6" Atlas I've been abusing for years.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK thats 'a new one on me! I have never seen that model T Cherrying head, although it is obvious how it got it's name. I have no idea of what it could be used for. It looks like it has a defined arc that it goes thru? Obviously it can be changed , but without a manual ***?

The actual drive unit of that attachment is a common Bridgeport M head 1/2 hp milling head with a longer quill. The cherrying attachment that moves the head and quill is something else I have never seen.

I assumed after looking a tool and machine catalogs for 30 years and being told the Slotting Head was called a cherrying head that, that was, what it was.

I stand corrected.

Randy

[theperfessor]

Go after it Bret. No telling what you'll find. When I bought my South Bend ($1000) the seller had another shaper for sale. Don't remember brand but it had about a four plus foot stroke and was built like an anvil with moveable parts. The guy would sell it to me for scrap /per pound at a price below what the local scrap dealers would pay. I had no room for it and no need for it. The guy couldn't give it away and may still have it in machine shed.

[dragonrider]

The cherrying heads were commonly used in mold making or 3D milling. Unfortunately not our kinds of molds, but for injection molding. There are two on e-bay now, $1000.00 buy it now price, also several collets for them, $100.00 EACH!!!!!!!!!! Way too expensive for me.

[theperfessor]

My Enco 10 x 54 vertical mill doesn't have a lug on the aft end of the ram or I'd be looking for an "E" head.

[nanuk]

..... Had I room for one, there would be one - they go cheap when they come up for sale at all.


the phrase, "they go for cheap" is not part of Canadian Language.

no machine is cheap up here.

I think they are made of gold!

[Dutchman]

Here's a video of my 7" South Bend in action. Poor video as it was done with my digital camera in video mode.

http://youtu.be/K8fRmlr8Opg

Dutch

These still photos were taken at the same time as the video so they're the same piece of hot rolled steel. I was surprised at the nice surface finish I got. I first used a large shaper in college in 1970 and then 40 years later I acquire this nice little South Bend.

I think the most fun with a shaper is when you run on the lowest speed and keep your hand on the down feed to advance the tool each stroke. You really do feel as an integral part of the machine moreso than with a lathe or mill.

Tool grinding for the shaper is interesting. It's a little different than a cutter for a lathe. The angles are different, some radically different so as to produce a more shearing cut. All the cutters to produce things like square holes are special to each type of operation.

A shaper is a single point milling machine. It's like a fly cutter on a vertical mill only it's in a straight line. I find that it's actually fun to play with.

http://images116.fotki.com/v715/photos/4/28344/9161136/DSCF2494sbs-vi.jpg

http://images12.fotki.com/v335/photos/4/28344/9161136/DSCF2497sbs-vi.jpg

http://images58.fotki.com/v696/photos/4/28344/9161136/DSCF2462sbs-vi.jpg

[Bret4207]

I bought several books and booklets from Lindsaybooks.com on shaper operation. I'll tell ya, seeing pictures of what can be done and trying to do it yourself are 2 different things.

[3006guns]

Lindsay's books are interesting Bret, but he removes several selected chapters from a book and binds them then sells that as a separate "book". I've caught them at that little game on several occasions.

Probably your best bet are late 1940's through 1960's high school shop text books. They're all over Ebay and contain the basic info on tool shapes, grinding, etc.

I have two shapers, a 1960's 12" Sheldon and a 1902 20" Hendey. The Hendey is driven from a line shaft on my shop ceiling and is a brute for removing metal, yet still leaves a nice finish. The Sheldon is much more advanced with various operator clutches, etc. and is easier to use but I wouldn't give up either. How else ya gonna cut an internal keyway in a pulley hub without a broach?

[bob208]

i have a 12" vernon shaper in my shop. i use it alot it is the cheapest machine for making flats. you dull a cutter you grind it like a lathe bit. you don't have to send it out like a mill cutter.

one job i did was to sharpen a bunch of chipper blades for the local rental company. so i put my tool post grinder in the holder. made a fixture to hold the blades and ground them all.

[Bret4207]

Lindsay's books are interesting Bret, but he removes several selected chapters from a book and binds them then sells that as a separate "book". I've caught them at that little game on several occasions.

Probably your best bet are late 1940's through 1960's high school shop text books. They're all over Ebay and contain the basic info on tool shapes, grinding, etc.

I have two shapers, a 1960's 12" Sheldon and a 1902 20" Hendey. The Hendey is driven from a line shaft on my shop ceiling and is a brute for removing metal, yet still leaves a nice finish. The Sheldon is much more advanced with various operator clutches, etc. and is easier to use but I wouldn't give up either. How else ya gonna cut an internal keyway in a pulley hub without a broach?

I wasn't bad mouthing Lindsay at all. I'm perfectly happy with the books I bought and the except type booklets too. Where else will you find some of the stuff that he publishes?!

Used my shaper again today. Nothing complex, just had to braze a hunka metal to a fixture that drives the hydraulic pump on my ancient Bobcat 444. I got a B+S 23 hp Vanguard set up for the Bobcat 500 and it's a little wider than the Onan it replaced. I managed to break one ear off the fixture ( I don't know what to call it exactly, so fixture it is!). Ground out the break, found a hunka steel in the cut off pile that would fit, brazed it in. Drilled it for the through bolt and cleaned uo the threads. Then I chucked the piece in the shaper vise and stated taking the new piece down to level with the old one. Found I had a bit of play in the table and figured out how to tighten it "more better" by actually reading the operators manual!!! Amazing! They put that information right in there! Anyways, about 10 minutes of "shrunk-clack, shrunk-clack, shrunk-clack" and it was worked down to about right. Did a minor adjustment to get things more leveled and a final pass gave me a fairly even surface for the bolt head to rest on. Considering the hole was at the junction of 2 hunks of steel and an hour glassed shaped area of braze I thought it came out pretty fair.

I do need to get some parallels or something for support and I need to come up with a better leveling method than eye balling the tool point. Iim sure I was a couple thou out of level at least.

[NITROTRIP]

WOW, a Shaper thread!!!
I never expected to find this. What a great read and to hear about you guy's and your
Shapers. I live in the southern Rocky's and they are about as rare as rocking horse poop.
Chicago east they are still around and used some. There are jobs that nothing works better.
They are just not for high production. Matching slideing parts togather, the only way to get a better finish and fit is to lap or scrape them. The one I have is a South Bend 7" that I got from
Los Alamos National lab on a equipment sale. And a Lilian slotter head for my Bridgeport. It works the same as the Bridgeport one just about 1/3 more mass. It is #12 of 53 in the US.
The Shaper is like new and came with tooling and manual. All I needed to do to it was clean the
oil pump and feed lines. Finish just needed wax it was so clean. The slotter needed a few parts and the clapper box wes missing. The Us dealer was in Atlanta and I had all the parts I needed
in 2 weeks. I only had to make the knuckle adapter for the Bridgeport ram back. With the 2 I have made 80yr old transmition gears you could not make any other way. Teath,dogs and all.
Lots of old gun parts. Like someone said a few posts up, the more you use it the more your amagination figures more and more uses for them. You make 1 thing and get ideas for 2 more.
finish them and then there are 4, then 8. I use them all the time.
Bret4207, any new projects out of yours? It is nice to here ideas and setups others are useing.
This is the most relaxing machine I have ever run. When I am frustrated about something my
wife tells me to go and make chips with the shaper to relax. I put a 3ph moter on mine with
a VFD drive and can sink it with some tunes I found out later. Relax and watch it make chips.
It is my Redneck Shrink LOL

Let's add more to this thread, sprout more ideas!
Take Care,
RICK

[Bret4207]

Hey! Glad you like it. Actually I'm contemplating trying some internal shaping. I have an ancient Deere 894 rake, the 2 piece axle is joined by 2 castings that are no more than a female section with splines to match the axle that have flat plates on them to bolt the 2 parts together. Mother Deere wants $175.00 for one and my welding didn't hold. If I have to, it should be fairly easy to make the female part.

[Cactus Farmer]

Teehehe, I have a South Bend 7",bench mount, and a Logan 7" floor model with a speed control on the front. It's a wheel and you can get any SPM you want ,within the range it has.
It uses a 2 pulley system on unlike a snowmobile. I use mine to slot screws and a lot more. Whoever said they are as useful as the owner want it to be was "right on". Cuts castings inside for actions,Sharps,Hi Walls,and Farrows. Then fitted the breach blocks.Made an old inboard/outboard "coupler" that was no longer made. Still working years later. I guess I have to learn more about planner "obsolessance". Cuts dovetails in odd sizes, makes things soooooo flat that a little lapping will hold water or can be rung together. No they aren't for sale but I wish I had the $$ and was closer the the guy in Eastern Colo. That 12" machine would be another very usefull tool in my shop.

[NITROTRIP]

One thing I did'nt finish about my shaper. I removed the original 4pole 1750rpm 110v motor.
Then put on a 1/2hp 6pole 1140rpm 240v 3ph. Something most don't know, is I picked up a
used Variable Frequency Drive for it, VFD. 110v 1ph input 240v 3ph output to drive it. You can do those drives up to 1hp. 240v 1ph to 3hp. They convert 110-240v to 540-580dc, then they
convert it back to 240v 3ph with 3 equal sine waves. Not like static or rotory converters that
have one low leg. Static 35% hp loss rotory 18%. These are 100% hp output at 60cycles.
I set mine up to run from 30 to 80cycles. Then I added a momantary jog button and can do
one veeerrry sslowww cut at a time if I need to. And added a breaking resistor to stop the
motor however fast I want. Cut .001 stop/check another .001/check. You can do some crazy
tight mateing parts fitting that way with no mill curcular marks to lap out then be loose. I am
working on a verneir sight for my Sharps. The slideing parts have no play and just float
togather. They are dovetailed not square slides. I was not able to have that kind of control
with the original motor as these small shapers run quite fast. Anyone that has one knows
exactly. With the jog you can even move 1/2 thou X or Y direction. These VFD drives are cheaper than the phase converters up to 3hp.
Keep this up and everyone will want one.

Take Care all,
Rick

[smokeywolf]

I had a 20" G & E shaper in the MGM Studio Machine Shop. It was a favorite for making 1-2-3 OR 2-4-6 blocks. I used to have the shaper running, knocking out blanks for my next milling job, while I did the milling on the current project.

smokeywolf

[NITROTRIP]

One interesting thing I noticed about my 7" South Bend is it is able to remove more steel dry
than my 2hp Bridgeport wet unless I use flood coolant. And only 1/2hp? A lot of times when
I have a large area to remove I rough it out on the shaper then finish off that spot and other areas on the mill. That little shaper has saved me several thousand dollers in end mills. 3 dovetail and 1 woodruff key mill cutters is what I paid for that little Shaper. I seem to make a
lot of 3 to 6" 1/4 thick taper shims. As someone pointed out in another post, almost no warpage.
Also, try makeing them out of 316 stainless in a mill. That little Shaper don't care what stock
you feed it. Cutts that 316 better than hotrolled.
Because of this thread the price of these little shapers might jump a couple hundred bucks.
Anyone know if there is around a 16" shaper for sale in the southern half of the Rocky's or
general area. I already contacted Whitey in eastern colo about his. He decided to keep it
for now.
Take care all,
RICK