Mosin nagant vs k31

[Ivantherussian03]

I recieved my CR license and want to make a purchase.


What are the pros and cons Mosin Nagants (91/30 and M38,m44) and K31 Swiss?

[Buckshot]

............The difference in what you're likely to see between the M-N's and the K-31 is in accuracy. Without a doubt the K-31 will be the more accurate from the git-go.

It's not that the various M-N's won't shoot, but it's like comparing the Swede Mausers to the various So. American Mausers. The SA contract Mausers started out as nice as the Swedes, but lets talk the "Run of the Mill" rifle, okay?

The Swede was never involved in any combat, had regular arsenal checkups and as a rule was used by fairly well educated soldiers. The So. American contract Mausers even if not used in combat did not recieve the same arsenal attention, were probably carried by troops rather indifferent to thier care and maintanence, and most were conscripts, and in general more poorly educated and possibly less motivated.

So the Swiss rifles fall into the same catagory as the Swede rifles.

On the other hand the M91/30, M44 and M38's are generally less expensive. Very cheap mil-surp blasting ammo is available. Spare parts are cheap and easy to come by, the things are robust, simple and not likely to break. Rifles with a good barrel are as likely to be good shooters as any other milsurp in like condition.

...............Buckshot

[Linstrum]

Hi, Ivantherussian03, how ya doin'?
All I can add is a basic reiteration of what Buckshot just said, plus a few thoughts along a different line.

If you are considering getting a Mosin Nagant and/or a Swiss K31 you will be in very good company here! I don't own a K31 and have never had the opportunity to fire one, but if you get one and need some help or ideas with it, there are plenty of K31 owners here who can tell you in good detail the finer points of that rifle. Same goes for the Mosin Nagant. My first high power rifle was a 1937-dated Russian 91/30 Mosin Nagant purchased in 1964 from Sears and Roebuck for $9.95, eight hours pay at minimum wage in those days.

Beyond getting a Mosin Nagant with a worn out or badly pitted bore from use of corrosively primed ammo, I can’t think of any major bad points of the Mosin Nagant family of rifles. A few years back, Jumptrap did a Mosin Nagant strength test by trying to blow one up with a huge fast powder charge and ended up using increased powder charges with the end result that the Mosin Nagant action did not blow up with things instead just bending and giving way. Because of that I would not have any qualms about action strength whatsoever. My own complaints are that it either takes Vise-Grip fingers or consumption of a pain pill first to operate the safety, and the triggers are pretty sloppy, but that’s it. The Com Bloc manufactured rifles are all well-made, even the really ugly rifles made during the sieges of Leningrad and Moscow that look like they were machined by beavers and chainsaws when the production machinists had to cut corners to produce enough rifles to defend those cities from the Nazis. They only cut corners on appearence items and the parts that require accuracy were made with the same accuracy as the best-looking M-N rifles. The cream of the crop of the Mosin Nagants are the various Finland rebuilds, although there are plenty of pretty good original Russian and other Com Bloc rifles as well. As stated earlier, there are unfortunately some pretty badly worn or thrashed Com Bloc ones for sale, too, I happen to have two myself. If you aren't familiar with the modern history of Finland, that nation adopted the Mosin Nagant as its main military rifle when they were able to become independent from Russia in 1917 when Czar Nikolas was overthrown and to make a long story short, the Finns have done a superlative job of rebuilding and "tuning up" the Mosin Nagant rifle and produced several variations based on the model 91 receiver. A few years ago I got three unissued Finn rebuilds with 1942-dated Tikkakoski barrels and with carefully loaded ammo they will all group better than 1.5-inches at 100-yards. One rifle consistently does 3/4” at that range and is one of two very accurate rifles I own, the other rifle is an ordinary French MAS 36 that was still in the cheese cloth and cosmoline wrapping when I bought it. The French MAS 36 is another really good cast boolit rifle, although according to most folks that model is The World’s Ugliest Rifle.

The 7.62x54R is a pretty potent cartridge, lying somewhere between the .308 Winchester and .30-06, although it requires a “fat .30” caliber boolit like the Lee C312-185R or other boolit greater than 0.310” or 0.311” in diameter. Any 0.308” diameter projectile will work okay but leading from gas blow-by may become a problem and velocity is a bit lower than with the correct size as well. An interesting thing about the 7.62x54R cartridge body is that it is the same basic dimension as the .308 Winchester. The neck is slightly longer, the base diameter at the head is a few thousandths of an inch larger in diameter, and it of course has a rim, but the .308 Winchester cartridge will chamber and fire safely in a Mosin Nagant IF the body is first shimmed half way up from the rim to the shoulder with a few turns of aluminum foil to make up the slight difference in base diameter.

Good luck!

[Shepherd2]

Ask for some advice around here and you sure get it. I'll add my 2 cents FWIW. I'd buy the K31 first. There were about 500,000 made and the supply is drying up and the prices are rising. Some say there are no more to be imported. One year ago it was easy to find one at $100. Now they are $130-140. I think FGS that advertises on one of the Swiss rifle boards has a shooter grade for $115. They have a good rep. The trick with K31s is finding one without a "beaver chewed" stock. A K31 is a lot of rifle for the money.

The M91/30 are getting a bit scarce but I think that will change. Right now you can get a rearsenaled one for about $75. I think some dealers now are charging a handpick fee to provide you with matching serial numbers. Enjoy your C&R license. Don't forget you can get dealer pricing from Brownells, Midway and Grafs.

[Ricochet]

The K-31s are fast drying up, and no more are coming. I believe there are vast untapped stocks of Mosins.

[NickSS]

I own both rifles and like them. I would buy the K31 first as right out of the box it will shoot great. I have three of them one in mint condition that I have in my collection, one in excellet condition that I fitted with accessory target sights that I use for military rifle matches and one in good condition that I use mostly for plinking and cast bullet shooting. The K31 has the best as issue military trigger that I know of and it also is a very accurate rifle. The only problem area is the short throwt that they have due to the VLD style military bullet that they use. The M-N rifles are good robust rifles that are reasonably cheap and easy to find. As they made millions of them I would look for more being available longer. The Swiss only made around 600,000 K31s so the supply will dry up a lot faster.

[db2]

I do not own a M-N, but I do have a K-31. With GP-11 surplus ammo it will shoot 2" groups at 100 yrds when I am doing my part. You do not have to worry about a pitted bore cause the swiss did not have corrosive ammo. Just make sure the grooves and lands are sharp (if you are lookin at one in a gunshow, or store). The ones I have been seeing lately have rust. Mainly on the barrel bands and reciever. Most of the buttstocks look like a beaver got a hold of it.

Just a side note. I was talking to a friend of mine who collects firearms. Back in the 80's he bought a K-31 and paid 600.00 for it. You did not see them very often back then. There was no ammo available for it at the time, so he has never shot it. When I was talking to him about a possible troop tag under the buttplate, he had no idea what I was talking about. So we pulled off the buttplate and there was a troop tag. This young dog showed and old dog a trick, that doesn't happen very often.

IMHO I would look for a K-31 that I could handle and order a M-N. Send a copy of your C&R to Century Arms, then call. They are having a 3-fer sell on M91/30's, M44's, and 1938 carbines this month. That way you can pick the best one of the three and sell the other two, or keep all three.

Good luck
db2

[mag_01]

All of the Mosin nagants shoot well with the M39 being the best----They (M39) are expensive today starting at $289 and up at SOG-----they have the swiss K 31 for $129 and I believe they have them on sale at $109 --- quoted me 2 days ago when I was buying a Yugo M24/47---In 8mm I don't have a K 31 but may get 1 more wont hurt (right)-----The M 39 is the rifle the Russians used to drive the Germans back to Germany in 2nd world war----reworking the trigger is easy I will help if you need it----Sog also has sniper rifles 91/30 for $339 arsenals refinished with PU 3.5 scopes----So many (Toys) so little time---Mag_01

[StarMetal]

The M39 was a product of the Finns, far as I recall the Russians didn't use many of those to push the Germans back. Also one of the differences on the M39 is the Finns reworked the triggers and in my opinion they don't need to be fiddle with like the bad ones on the rest of the Mosin Nagant line.

Joe

[Ricochet]

I still don't have a K-31. Reason being there's no cheap surplus ammo and it's another caliber to buy dies and brass for. Guess I'm going to have to go on and get one, though, while they can still be had. Better wait a month or so, having just bought a Persian Mauser a couple of weeks ago and an 1893 Turkish Mauser today.

Wish somebody had a good deal on the old 1911 Swiss. I like long rifles. The K-31's a stubby carbine with a 25" barrel.

[35 Whelen]

I recieved my CR license and want to make a purchase.


What are the pros and cons Mosin Nagants (91/30 and M38,m44) and K31 Swiss?

If I were you I'd buy a K-31 ASAP. Earlier this year, I sort of took a liking to Milsurps and bought a decent Mosin M38 @ Big5. It was O.K., but it, as most of the Russian rifles I've seen, looked as though they were hand-built with a mill file and a ballpeen hammer. And the triggers are horrible. Mine shot fairly decent in the 2 1/2"-3" range when I was careful.
I then began reading about the K-31's and their inherent accuracy, so I bought one. To compare a K-31 to the Mosin's I've seen would be silly. Honestly, the K-31's have the most beautiful metal I've ever seen on any issued military arm. They look as though they were built in a commercial U.S. factory. I now own four and it's next to impossible to find any machine marks anywhere. My '44 's trigger breaks at an honest 2.5 lbs. and has grouped 10 shots in the 1.5" range with military GP-11 ammo.
I've since sold my Mosin and all but one of my Enfields. The K-31's can still be had for as little as $110.00 +/-.
35W

[Buckshot]

.............Just thought I'd post a couple pic's of my K-31. I bought it locally at a Big5 sporting goods store about 8 months ago.

http://www.fototime.com/A6FC61B8C458AA2/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/11FC79263F6E94C/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/F58DD01573E69AF/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/2D96B837ED8482D/standard.jpg

..............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

I'm thinking along the lines of Ricochet. I have too many milsurps in the safe now and I don't need another one that needs need dies and brass. In fact thinking of selling off some of them, especially if Willy gets an auction going. Say like a minty 1891 Argentine Engineers carbine that would make even Buckshot drool.

Joe

[Rick N Bama]

I've been through about 10 or 12 91/30s in order to come up with 2 decent shooters. Both of those are Finn captures which I believe were unfired after their re-build. I have yet to own a Russian that even came close to having the accuracy of the 2 K-31s I've owned. The 91/30s will be around for many years to come while the K-31s will soon be gone,,,,,,hands down, get the K-31!

Rick

[StarMetal]

Rick,

Have you owned a good Finn 39?

Joe

[Rick N Bama]

Rick,

Have you owned a good Finn 39?

Joe

Yes sir, I currently own 2 M39s and nope, they're not for sale:) Great rifles! The Finns certainly knew what they were doing when they built them!

Rick

[Ivantherussian03]

Good Info

Thanks

[KTN]

Want to know what Finnish government did to surplus M39 barrels after WWII?
My father told me,how they used new rifle barrels as big nails to nail together logs in the 50's.They were building "uittopuomeja"(sorry,don't know the english word for that,maybe some other Finnish member can fill it in) for logging company,and they were given new barrels from VKT and Tikkakoski to be used as nails.


Kaj

[Rick N Bama]

Want to know what Finnish government did to surplus M39 barrels after WWII?
My father told me,how they used new rifle barrels as big nails to nail together logs in the 50's.They were building "uittopuomeja"(sorry,don't know the english word for that,maybe some other Finnish member can fill it in) for logging company,and they were given new barrels from VKT and Tikkakoski to be used as nails.


Kaj

What a waste, unless the barrels were well worn or otherwise unusable.

Rick

[mike in co]

i have two good m39's and a finn 91/30...all good triggers, good shooters.
i had two very good 44 carbines....both like new, both shot well.
i have passed on tons of other mn's with poor bores....
i always have wanted to buy a shot out mn and rebbl with a premium 30cal bbl and use the 7.62x54 match reamer on it....

empire arms has finn mn 91/30 rebuilds in like new,,,but are 300 plus bucks....

think i may pop for another k31 first....then there is that cz82 pistol in 9x18, and......

[Bob S]

This is my favorite K31. Definitely not "as issued": built about 1969 by Grunig and Elmiger from a 1954-production military K31 action, in cal. 7.62 x 51. It really likes the Ideal 311291 with 2400.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/CISMK314.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/CISMK315.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Buckshot]

..................My , my Bob! Isn't THAT a spiffy lookin shooting arn!?

.................Buckshot

[Bob S]

You shoulda seen it when I got it: no bolt, no magazine, no sights, no butt plate assembly. But it is a pretty rare rifle, and I knew what it was: nobody else even bid on it, so I got it for a song. And I already had the "spare parts" to make it functional and get it back on the firing line. It's a real dream to shoot.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[jh45gun]

Well all I can tell ya is I have had 4 mosins and 3 Turk Mausers in my small collection and a Ishy Nato Enfield then I bought a Swede Mauser and a Swiss K31. The others went the K31 and the Swede stayed. That should tell ya what I think of the issue. The only other milsurp I have is a old semi sporterized Model 93 Mauser I built from parts so it has sentimental value to me as it got me into the milsurp game about 8 years back. Out of all of them the Swede and the Swiss gun will drive tacks the others not even close and the Enfield was a huge disapointment the bore looked good but it shot crappy groups even at 50 yards with a scope on it with a no gunsmithing mount it still shot so so groups. That was the first to go the others after I got the K31 and of course I had to keep the Swede. :)

[corvette8n]

Buy them both:
Here is what I bought within two years of getting my C&R
Enfield NO.1 MKIII
Enfield NO.4 MKII
Enfield Isapore 7.62 NATO
2-Enfield NO.5 Jungle carbines
Romanian SKS
Russian SKS
Russian M38 carbine
French MAS 49/56
German Mauser K98
Swiss K31
Arisaka type 38
M1 Garand
M1 Carbine
'03 Springfield
Mossberg M44US
several pre-64 1894 Winchesters
Marlin 336RC pre-1955
Carcano
Polish .22
been living on Ramen noodles ever since.:???:

[txpete]

get the K-31 first.I just picked up my 2nd one and they are great shooters.
the M39 is also high on the list of must have.I picked up a "B" barrel and it is also one very accurate rifle.the M39 seems to like the 160 tl lee with 19.0 grs of AA5744.and if you load jacketed (oops) the 123 gr sks/ak .310 bulk bullet is cheap and shoots great out of m39.
m39
http://www.hunt101.com/img/427502.jpg (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=427502&c=500&z=1)

k31
http://www.hunt101.com/img/427499.jpg (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=427499&c=500&z=1)

#2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/IIK31004.jpg

[MikeSSS]

I have a K31 but have not shot it much. It did less than 2" at a hundred yards with Pavi Partizan ammo.

My 91/30 Mosin did a bit over 2" at a hundred with .311 jacketed soft point flat based 123 gr bulk bullets and 40.0 of Varget. The cases were Lapua.

This Mosin is probably a Russian rebuild. It has a laminated stock and is excellent on the outside. The bore good, the rifling is good, but the grooves are dark. Like all Mosins I've checked the headspace is less than 0.004".

I might get another K31 because they are going away slowly and because I'm part Swiss. The fact that they are just excellent rifles is a factor too.

Often I buy milsurp rifles at a dealer. I pay more but can check the headspace and clean the bore so I know what I'm getting. That is worth some money to me.

[jack19512]

............The difference in what you're likely to see between the M-N's and the K-31 is in accuracy. Without a doubt the K-31 will be the more accurate from the git-go.


...............Buckshot




I have two K31's and four M/N's. I handload for both these rifles and have shot a tighter group with my M38 than I have with my K31 so far.

I know it's hard to believe but it's true. I think you need to reload for the M/N's to bring out their full potential.

[Bret4207]

My K31 is a great shooter. I just have to remember to take the sling off the butt BEFORE SHOOTING! OUCH!!! Great sights, great trigger, great round. I hope to find a chopped up K31 someday that I can turn into a 'sperimental rifle. Try to make a real sporter out of it and maybe-maybe- lenghten the throat a bit so I can try longer boolits. Knowing me, it'll never hapen.

I have wanted a Finn 39 for years. A couple guys here have some for sale on occasion. I just never seem to have the $$$ when they come up. There are a couple chopped MN's a a nearby shop that I thought about turning into truck guns. BTW- There is a website someplace that showed how a guy took the MN saftey and put a ring on it, ala- K31, for easier manipulation. Seems a good idea to me.

Currently I'm looking at a sporterized ByF '98 Mauser in 8mm. Stock isn't bad at all except for the start of an inlay I could fix. Darn thing can't weigh 7 lbs, even with the issue barrel. Since it doesn't say Remchester or Savagby on the gun anywhere and isn't a 7.62 Super Tommahawk Lazer Guided Cruise Missle caliber with a 8x32 scope on it no one esle gives it much thought. Hence, it's right down my alley.

Mil-surps are the ticket for a lot of guys like me. Inexpensive, reliable, interesting and CHEAP! Some, like my M38 Swede, my Yugo 48, my K-31, are real shooters. Others like my $39.00 Turk are dogs. $39.00 will just about make one meal at McDonalds for the kids these days, so I don't feel too bad about it. Plus I have a decent action to work with.

But what interests you. The supply will dry up eventually and the prices are going up. The important thing is to have FUN doing it.

[Ricochet]

Well, I figured I've just about waited too long, seeing how few dealers are still carrying K31s and how the price has drastically climbed over the last few years, but I just ordered one from Samco. I also ordered some Prvi Partizan ammo from AIM Surplus. Now I've got to find a good deal on dies.

[jh45gun]

There is no comparison I still have my k31 because it is accurate as is my Swede which I kept. The rest I traded off and that included two Mosins. The mosins are ok rifles in themselves but not in the league the Swiss rifles are. Get the Swiss K31 first then worry about a Mosin.

[Mel-4857]

I have a couple of each but I got a chance to try my Nagant long rifle in a bench rest competition on the weekend. It was a shoot what you brung for score. The rifle had a 6X Bushnell Sportsview. The load was 17gr. IMR 4227 with a Lyman 314299 (210gr). Its not going very fast but it held in there against all the condom bullet shooters. Shooting was done at 100,200and 300 yrds. Weather was windy cold with sprinkles of rain and ice pellets and open benches. Below is my 100 yd target 4 into1" and 5 into 1.5" for a score of 48. At 200 ran a 46 using the top of the target as an aiming point and only got 21 at 300yds using the thick bar of the duplex reticle at the top of the target. but it was great fun . Came in fourth out of seven shooters. It really likes the heavy bullet and they seem to buck the wind well. Just wish these guns had a better trigger.

[Ken O]

Another vote for the K31. I bought two of them this year with my C&R. One from AIM, and one from FGS. AIM is a little cheaper, but the FGS comes with a sling and muzzle cap, so its a toss up.
The first one I got early summer, I picked up some GP11 surplus ammo, and went to Camp Perry with it and entered the Vintage Military bolt Nationals. I did real well, the match is shot at short range (200 yards), 10 shots standing, 10 shots standing to prone rapid with reload, and 10 shots slow prone.
My first two shots out of the rifle were Xs, I thought this was unbelievable, I ended up 9th out of 240 shooters. Here is a link to see what the different rifles did, the K31 was real respectable. Vintage Nationals (http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_eventAward.cgi?matchID=1409&eventID=14&awardID=1)

edited to fix spelling

[Ivantherussian03]

Pretty convincing results; not a single Mosin-nagant in the top ten. Nice shooting!!

[C A Plater]

I went up to the Nashville gun show today and found 2 K31s on one table. One is walnut stocked for sure, the other has had some new finish applied over the wood to make it glossy but done poorly with a few runs. It may be stained birch as the color looks a bit off but that could be the finish. Metal is a bit better though and 0000 steel wool, elbow grease and some oil will bring the stock back to a soft luster. The bores on both look great, smooth with sharp rifling. The only better I've seen is my Yugo mauser that looks unissued. Unable to decide between the two, I brought both home.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Real accuracy did not seem to be the over-riding factor as far as effectiveness in the field went. The No4Mk1T was lucky to get 2 moa and more likely to get 3-3.5moa, but that didn't stop it being a highly effective arm in battle. The Swiss rifles were like Swiss clocks and I am sorry I didn't get one while they were going, but they haven't been battle tested and I feel that if I had to crawl through the mud and snow in a European winter, I'd like someone else to try one first. I wouldn't hesitate to carry a Lee or Mosin or Garand sniper rifle though, if I was caught up in WW2. Nice to have em poppin into small groups on the range though! Mick.

[matm0702]

I've had both a K31 and a M39. The M39 I could drive nails with but could never get the K31 to do as well. This was with handloads. It was just the opposite
with surplus as GP11 is outstanding ammo with the K31. Best surplus for the M39
is wolf 147 FMJ and Czech silvertip. Had to drop one so I let go of the K31 and stayed with the M39. being more experienced with reloading 7.62x54R than 7.5 swiss also had a lot with my choice. I also bought a un-issued M39 VKT for cast
bullet loads and have had good luck with 185 grain Lees sized .311. I have to stick
with the M39's

Mike

[Maven]

All, I think we need to be more specific about M-N's before any conclusions are drawn about them and the K-31's: I mean, who needs another "less filling, "tastes great" debate? Although the latter have an enviable reputation for accuracy, I'm sure there are some that are "dogs," rare as that may be. Let me ask the K-31 experts this: Were there K-31's by a particular manufacturer that were known, not rumored, to be more accurate than others? I have two (don't know who made them) that are equal in accuracy, but no more accurate than my M-N's.

As for M-N's, you have to distinguish between the Finnish Nagants and the Russian/Soviet Bloc ones. Furthermore, accuracy of the Finn. Nagants varies by model type (bbl. thickness, sight & trigger quality) more than by manufacturer, which I think can also be said of the Russian-Soviet Bloc M-N's. I have 3 "as issued" Finn Nagants (all SAKO-made from Civil Guard units), 2 are 28/30's; 1 is a M39. All will shoot into 2 m.o.a. or better. The triggers are excellent, as are the sights.

My K-31's will also shoot into 2 m.o.a. or better, sometimes using the same powder and charge wt. as my Finn. Nagants, but not with the same CB's. The triggers on these are even better than on the Finns, but the narrow front sight blade is difficult to see given the light & shadows of our 100yd. range.

If I wanted to spend megabucks to mount target scopes on one of the M28/30's and one of the K-31's, I'm sure they'd be better than m.oa. shooters with CB's.