Heavy Cast Bullets for .44 mag Marlin

[longbow]

I have a question for for you all.

First I guess a comment, then a question.

I have been trying to get a heavy boolit approx. 300 gr. to work in my Marlin 1894 .44 mag with 1:38" twist.

So far I have tried cast 300 gr. truncated cone point, paper patched 300 gr. and Speer jacketed 300 gr. (the cast weren't working for me so I broke down and bought copper jacketed).

My results so far using Blue Dot, IMR 4227 and Hodgdon H110 indicate that the bullets do not stabilize. The hottest load I have used is 21 gr. H110 with a 300 gr. paper patched. This gives me very flattened primers and is in my opinion about the max. for my gun. Good accuracy at 50 yards, mediocre at 75 yards, sideways at 100 yards.

The Greenhills formula tells me that the max. boolit length is about 0.7" which limits the weight to about 265/270 gr. with 1:38 twist.

Starrbow tells me that he has had good success with wide flat nose 300 gr. boolits and I have read that others have had good results as well. So far all my loads with 300 gr. boolits, including the Speer copper jacketed, have given poor accuracy at anything beyond 75 yards - some even keyholing at 100 yards yet the 265 gr. cast have given good accuracy to 200 yards.

Guns and Ammo printed an article "Make Mine A .44" in June 2005. The article was promoting the heavyweight non-expanding brass boolits of Belt Mountain and the penetrating qualities of heavy non-expanding boolits including Garret 330 gr., Buffalo Bore 340 gr. and the Belt Mountain 300 gr.. The boolits these heavyweights were compared to were a 240 gr. jacketed soft point, Buffalo bore 270 gr. soft point and a cast semi wadcutter 240 gr.. Strangely enough the 240 gr. semiwadcutter was loaded to over 300 FPS slower in both rifle and handgun but at 1234 FPS (slower than any other heavy weight boolit) it penetrated 30" compared to 36" for the Belt Mountain at 1330 FPS and and out penetrated the Buffalo Bore 340 at 1323 FPS by 2".

The point was that the heavy slow non-expanding boolits penetrate better than a high velocity expanding boolit - which they did. Yet the lighter loaded 240 gr. semiwadcutter gave the heavy weights a run for their money.

I have written two letters to Guns and Ammo questioning the logic of using such low velocity loads for the lead semwadcutter and just what it might have done at 1600 to 1700 FPS - no response.

I like heavy bullets but have to question the results of this test which indicates to me that a hard cast (or brass like the Belt Mountain) mid weight boolit can equal or better the heavy weights.

Okay - now the question(s):

Have any of you run tests to determine the maximum practical weight for a boolit in a .44? Obviously at some point you simply run out of room for powder, but what is the optimum weight bullet to give the best penetration?

Also, since penetration without accuracy is somewhat pointless, what is the maximum accurate range of heavy boolits in the 1:38 twist?

A .44 mag Marlin surely isn't a long range weapon but the boolit should be stabilized over the useful range of the cartridge.

I would appreciate whatever info any of you may have.

Longbow

[Ranch Dog]

Longbow...

I've found the most important consideration to be how well the bullet fits the barrel which you didn't mention above. Being you are talking about a Marlin, I can assure you that you need, as a minimum, a boolit that is .432" in diameter. Without that, the various formulas for bullet stablization cannot be considered.

I've worked with a lot of the larger bullets in my Marlin 336-44 and I haven't had problems getting the gun to shoot. I don't have 1894, I have a 336-44, and the 1894s have never placed well in my Postal Match. One fellow on Beartooth's Shooters Forum must have the longest thread in the world discribing his efforts to get his 1894 44 Mag to shoot.

You are correct in the larger boolits robing case capacity and I've come to think of the Beartooth 290-grain LFNGC as the largest bullet I like shooting out of my 336.

I use 20.5-grains of H110 for 1550 FPS. I've got the rifle sighted in at 100 yards. To date, my average 5-shot group is .97" at 100-yards. Follow this link for the details of the load: http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Firearms/33644/

I killed this hog last Thanksgiving evening from the back porch of my house, the shot was 80 yards. I shot him broadside through both lungs and he ran about 70 to 80 yards. Check out the blood trail this beast (the 290-grain Beartooth) left!

[LET-CA]

Michael, smile once in a while! From the look on your face you'd think you had a grudge against that animal. At least I know one look to avoid around you. :mrgreen:

[crazy mark]

Longbow,
I don't know about the Marlin but I have gotten good results in my 16" winny trapper with cast bullets up to 360 gr. Of course the Winnie has a faster twist. I mainly use 2400. Mark

[Dale53]

For the life of me I don't understand why in the world that Marlin would use the 1-38" twist. S&W uses 1-18 3/4" (reportedly) in their revolvers and the guns shoot well way-y--y-y out there. Sometimes corporate types mystify me. A decent twist would stabilize 350 gr bullets with ease and still shoot bullets as light as 200 grs quite well.

This would be a good argument to reline the barrel with a proper twist. You would sure enjoy it more.

Dale53

[steveb]

Interesting, I dont have any experience with the Marlin but my Rossi 92 has a 1-38 twist rate with the .432 bore and I'm getting great accuracy at 50 yards. I just havent checked for accuracy farther out yet. Curious to see what my results are farther out with Ranch Dog's TLC432-285-RF.

[Bass Ackward]

Longbow,

Tough questions to answer because of so many variables. And some answers can only tell you about our results.

There are to ways to utilize twist rate. One is to go up in bullet weight. The second is to go up in meplat size. As an example, you often here of wadcutters being 50 yard bullets. Well that depends on the twist rate that you run them. The trick in bullet design is finding the balance between weight and meplat size that achieves your goals. With cast you add another dimension with hardness.

But penetration is just a factor of twist rate, bullet hardness and meplat size or deformation. Think jacketed with a solid ad compare that to a hollow point. Which one penetrates more and why? If you want a hollow point to penetrate farther wouldn't you slow it down?

And the semiwadcutter probably had about a 60% meplat comparred to what on the others? It is amazing to see how meplat width shortens penetration with the same weight. How many long range bullets do you see in competition that are blunt? Ask yourself why? Different shaped and different weight bullets for different purposes from different velocities. Same applies to cast designs as well. It's just that while many people can grasp the idea of twist in flight, they can't understand twist stabilization as a bullet slows in flesh. IF you press the envelope with a heavy bullet just so that it goes the distance you want accurately what does it have left for nose first penetration? You have to achieve balance.

I have two 38 twists. And they are both 38 twists measured. One will, one won't. That's using every trick in the book. So just as soon as one guys says the limit is X. Along comes somebody that says faster. As with anything that you read here, the test is in your gun. Your limit is your set of conditions. There are no iron clad rules.

What kind of penetration do you think you would have gotten at 100 yards with the key holler if you hadn't shot that far to see?

[Ranch Dog]

Michael, smile once in a while! From the look on your face you'd think you had a grudge against that animal. At least I know one look to avoid around you. :mrgreen:

He, he... I do smile most of the time but was getting a little pissed with my dad over the picture. This was about picture 20, he can never seem to get the image in the frame. In the other pictures my head was chopped or the hog was chopped. I figured that when he got both me and the hog in the frame it was time to stop! I threaten to fire him all the time but it does no good!

I actually shot the hog in my PJs and slippers. It was night, near bed time and all the deer outside where running around throwing a fit... that only means a coyote or hog. So I went out in the yard and just let my eyes get adjusted. Sure enough I saw this fellow scooping up my yard. I shot him and went to bed as it was pretty durn cold. Next morning the crows where throwing a fit so I went ahead and got up and went out to get him. While I was gutting him a coyote ran out of that brush line and bumped into us and how my dad didn't shoot me I will never know. Again, I threatened to fire him on the spot but it did no good.

[JDL]

I have a newly acquired (1978 vintage) 1894 Marlin that I've been experimenting with using the RCBS 44-225 GC and the Lee C430310, both of which a friend gave me a handfull to try. Groove diameter in my carbine is .4292" and he had sized the boolits to .430".
Preliminary test at 100 yards, the RCBS boolit averaged 2.04" (3 groups) with the largest being 2.85" at a velocity of 1391 fps, while the Lee averaged 1.54" (2 groups) with the largest 2" being pushed at 1290 fps. All holes were round although some were torn pretty bad from target not being flat against the backer. These were fired with a single powder charge as I didn't have enough boolits for through testing, but I thought the results were revealing enough to order a Lee mold. When it gets here I'll give them more of a test. -JDL

[44man]

I can't comment on the 38 twist or micro groove. I have the 1894P with Ballard rifling. I tried to get a quick measurement but the barrel is so short the rod falls through before I get 1/2 turn but as near as I can figure it is 1 in 30 to 1 in 34. I will try to get more accurate later.
Anyway it shoots great with heavy boolits, I use the 320 gr LBT WLNGC, my own WLNGC at 330 gr's and the Lee 310 gr. Here is a 5 shot group at 50 yd's with 21.5 gr's of 296 and Fed 150 primer. It shoots as good at 100 yd's but seems to shoot even better with 20.5 gr's. I also have a 250 gr boolit I designed for light loads that shoots fantastic.
My boolits run .430 to .431 and I agree the micro groove needs a larger boolit. With a 1 in 38, the shorter boolit might be all you can use.

[andrew375]

I've been using the LBT 320gr. (actually 330gr.) bullet for many years in an M29, Super redhawk and an M94. All give tremendous accuracy. My M94 has 1 in 38" rifling and gives accuracy under 2 moa with this bullet all the time. Powder is N110 and gives just over 1500 fps in the 22 inch barrel.

I thing your real problem is the barrel. Every Marlin barrel I've measured is over size. My 1895, 1980's vintage, is .4595" groove dia. Not much but enough to only give shotgun pattern with .458" bullets. I use bullets unsized at .460" and get one hole groups at 50 metres.