American Craftsmanship

[KCSO]

I normally buy Cimarron reproductions because over the years I have found that they exhibit the best quality, but...

I got caught by a flashy stock and an ALL AMERICAN made sticker. I purchased a Chaparral M73 winchester repro to go with my 38-40. The gun came in and had excellent wood and better than average case hardening. The but came in the shooting. The gun won't chamber factory ammo. For all the outside glitz they forgot to finish ream the chamber! If you lever hard enough to get a shell in and then tap it out with a cleaning rod the first 70 thou of the case neck is compressed and shows rifling. Needless to say this is not going to be a shooter as is. Now I am stuck, do I send the rifle back to Charter Arms and let them try again or do I strip it down and do the job right and take my loss? From past experience I have found that I will end up paying shipping and will be out the rifle for 2 to 3 weeks while their service and warranty center scratches their a$$ and mumbles over how picky people are now days. I'll have to borrow or rent a reamer, but I can do the job myself, right the first time in about an hour and I can ream the leade just as I choose. I guess I will bite the bullet and do the repairs, but this sure doesn't speak well for Chaparral/Charter. So far I have seen two of their guns and both needed repairs out of the box. One, a 76 replica is sitting on a dealers shelf with the loading gate jammed up where it was not properly fitted and now this *** with an unfinished chamber. What really irks me is that I got rid of a perfectly good Rossi to finish paying for this.

I will quit now I am frothing at the mouth again.

[Bigscot]

KSCO,

Sorry to hear about your luck. I just bought a Rem 1187 and shot it for the first time this past weekend using reloads. Everything worked fine but on 2 or 3 occasions the gun ejected the spent shell, pulled the next round out of the magazine but stopped with the bolt open and failed to go into to battery without pressing the carrier release.
I went back out Monday and shot about 25 factory and did not have a problem. I don't know if the problem was the reploads, ( I don't think so) or if the gun needed to be broken in a little.
Any way, I have debated on contacting Remington or not and just seeing what happens. Your situation is different. Personally, I would let Charter know your problems so they can address them and feel some pain in there wallets. If nothing else, let them know just to see how they would handle it.

Good luck,

Bigscot

[Char-Gar]

The minute you try and work on the gun, you will void the warantee. Let them do the work and demand a prepaid shipping label from them so they pay the cost.

Ruger will pay the shipping both ways and this outfit should as well. Hold their feet to the fire.

[hpdrifter]

sometimes i wished i could buy guns made like that so i could get the chambers right, instead of oversized and overlength chambers. but, i can't recommend doing the chamber work yoself, just cause of the warranty thang. but then again, what they don't know won't hurt them.

[steveb]

KCSO, that fine lookin wood finish is just on the surface and not all the way through IIRC. It is purty for sure but I beleive its just a surface finish Chaparall uses. Check out the article on www.gunblast.com about the chaparal and that wood finish.

http://www.gunblast.com/Chaparral-1873.htm

http://www.gunblast.com/Chaparral-1876.htm

[KCSO]

The last time I had a gun with a bad chamber it was an EMF. I sent it in after I had tuned the lock and had the set trigger springs replaced and requested they fix my gun rather than send a new one. I got the rifle back in 3 weeks with a note from their service center that, "My unreasonable demands caused THEM extra work". Then the new barrell was marked 45-70 and was chambered to 45-90. I'd just a soon have no warranty than a poorly cut chamber and chances are if I send it back the "service center" will screw on another barrel and not check it either.

Steve
It sure looks nice, I wonder how they got the grain on there?

[Four Fingers of Death]

The firms that give you brilliant service in the States are less than committed over here. I usually don't bother and get it fixed myself. Right first time, no shipping, not much money. MIck.

[KCSO]

Now, to serve the North American market, Chaparral ships finished gun parts to Connecticut. Charter Arms’ craftsmen assemble the parts, assure strict quality control, and test-fire each weapon.

I wonder how you test fire if you can't chamber a shell?

[9.3X62AL]

For me, there are few disappointments as deep and long-remembered as faulty firearms "out of the box". Sadly, most makes made in the USA these days require som owner finishing to make them operate successfully. I guess on some bean-counting, profit/loss margin level--this way of doing business makes sense. But I damn sure don't care for it.

[G50-70]

KSCO. Sorry to hear about the poor quality of your Chaparral 73. They really look nice. I have been wanting one of their 76's, hopefully early next year. I don't have the know how to repair a problem like yours so I would have to send it back. I would expect Chaparral to pay for shipping both ways.

If you do send it back or contact them I would be very interested in hearing how good is Chaparral Customer service

Gary

[Marlin Junky]

The Chaparrals are fabricated in Italy and assembled in CT. A pasta eating wino could have chambered your rifle.

MJ

[KCSO]

Jim, HAVE YOU TRIED ANY FACTORY AMMO??

THE STAR LINE MAY NOT BE CORRECT LENGTH??

This is my first message from them. In my note I explained that a fired case was showing 55 thou of rifling on the case neck and that a new starline case was chambering with 70 thou constriction at the neck. I also told them the gun had been fired with Factory ammo.

I took off the tube tonight and will fix the gun tomorrow. The barrel was set in place with red locktite and with the locktite removed the barrel turned 8 degrees over center. I had to swedge the rear flats and will re set the barrel with acraglass when I finish headspace and fitting. I am taking pictures of the entire process for another article no one will publish. When I had this problem with an EMF Sharps I was told that my documentation of the problems was "too harsh and technical" for publication. So far there is nothing wrong that can't be fixed, but you would think that for over $800 dollars you wouldn't have to fix anything. If I hadn't pulled the barrel I would have gotten the gun back rechambered, maybe right maybe not and sooner or later the glue wuld have gave way and the barrel would have loosend.

[waksupi]

Geez, ya suppose they are just selling them for wall hangers? What a total piece of crap! Or maybe you were supposed to be able to turn the barrel for windage. Ya, that's it. Windage.

Caveat emptor, for all others!

[steveb]

Steve
It sure looks nice, I wonder how they got the grain on there?

Not sure how they do it but it does look very nice for a finish.

[rhead]

Makes you kinda wonder if any of those (never been shot safe queens bought for investments) are in that condition.

[KCSO]

Waksupi
Yes it was a wall hanger! I got another message just about the time I had the gun all apart wanting to pick up the rifle for free and ship me a new gun. I got a Shot Show demonstrater. The gun was dummied up from from two different rifles and the innards and butt stock have a different serial number than the rest of the gun. The hole under the butttrap was only dummied in and the barrel was just locktited in place. I refitted and re chambered the barrel and lapped the bore. I set the trigger pull to 2.5 pounds and smoothed the action and fit an old Lyman bead front sight and the gun is now a real shooter. I may fil the trap hole and re drill it if I decide I want a cleaning rod in the butt. I sent a detailed report to Charter along with phot's and our shop repair rate so it will be interesting to see what they do.

[9.3X62AL]

It appears that they at least tried to do the right thing--likely after a little HARRUMPHING and hand-wringing, once they figured out that their customer knew *** he was talking about. Makes ya wonder why there's always time to "do it over", but not to do it right the first time.

[KCSO]

Holy Cow!
I gave up, the rifle is on its way back to Chaparral. I tried it today at 100 yards and it would put one or two on target and the next one would be sideways in the paper. I checked the bore and I could push a 401 jacketed slug into the bore with my fingers. Slugged the bore was 4005x403. This is crazy, I would have to shoot 402 dia jacketed slug all the time to get consistant accuracy.

[45 2.1]

Holy Cow!
I gave up, the rifle is on its way back to Chaparral. I tried it today at 100 yards and it would put one or two on target and the next one would be sideways in the paper. I checked the bore and I could push a 401 jacketed slug into the bore with my fingers. Slugged the bore was 4005x403. This is crazy, I would have to shoot 402 dia jacketed slug all the time to get consistant accuracy.

Rapine made a hollow base 180 gr. mold for the 38-40 that would have done well in that rifle. You have a nice tight barrel compared to some original Marlins i've measured. One in particular had a 0.413" groove! It shot like a target rifle with hollow base boolits.

[Griff]

The Chaparrals are fabricated in Italy and assembled in CT. A pasta eating wino could have chambered your rifle.

MJMaybe the '73s are, but I understand the '76s are made in Germany and assembled in CT.

[KCSO]

The problem is not just the barrel. When I cut the chamber I used my Manson reamer and it cuts a tight chamber. So I can load a max of a 402 cast bullet in the chamber and it will hit the larger bore. Yes there are cures, and if I thought this was my last rifle ever I would stick with it, but I could never resell a rifle that won't shoot factory ammo around her and surely not for what I have in it. We'll see what they send for a replacment.

[KCSO]

Well the replacment rifle arrived today...
First, the rear sight was milled twice and had two grroves with a post left in the center. This is nice as you don't need a front sight at all. The milling on the sight blade was done with a dull cutter and not even smoothed up before bluing. The bore on this one is 3985x 402 and this one won't chamber a factory cartridge either!!! The chamber is 1/10" from being cut to depth. And this after the owner bragged to me that they used Manson reamers too. So I have invested 850 dollars dealer cost plus shipping on two rifles that won't even shoot. I would post pictures, but right now I am so mad I can't even type, let alone re format photo's. The gun goes with me to Doc Carlson tomorrow and when we have this turkey documented I am going to really raise some ... By the by the 76's have italian proof marks. I saw one the other day, but it didn't work either.

[Buckshot]

..............Ah feel yor pain :-) Ya gotta remember that back in the old days when money was actually worth something, skilled labor was cheap and lots of folks worked for the same outfit forever. They made nice stuff. Just doesn't seem to work the same these days.

I would call the company up and have them send a UPS pickup slip to take the *** back. Also advise them you will be sending back a list of QC items to be inspected and checked off before they send you another one. Or give them the option of talking to your gunsmith so he can apraise them of his cost estimates to make thier dog into a working piece of equipment, if they prefer that option.

I wouldn't spend another dime on it.

..................Buckshot

[KCSO]

Buckshot
I just went that route and THIS is what I got...
Can you see someone test firing this and not noticing?
I've a mind to send the rifle to their competitior with my compliments and show it off at every Cowboy shoot across the country!

[Frank46]

I mentioned in another thread that saturday I had shot my new ruger MKIII. During cleaning I noticed that the front sight screw was loose and so was the front sight. Well compared to KCSO"s problems that was an easy fix. Loctite 242 after cleaning off both offending parts. That rear sight was probably made by luigi after too much vino. Or maybe he should have had some more. Frank

[KCSO]

I replaced the rear sight and re cut the chamber on this one and at least it is a shooter. I sent E mails to Customer service and the Prez and have gotten of replys. I took the gun to Doc for a second opinion and he just laughed when he saw the sight. He was busy fixing a Chaparral 40-60 that came in with a loading gate mis fitted. I think they need a gun person somewhere on the inspection line!

[straightshooter1]

KCSO

I am really sorry about your problems. However, you have saved me some $. I have been wanting one of those 76s with the oiled stock (I didn't think the veneer ones would hold up well). Now there is no way I will buy one.

Buffalo Arms offers the 1876 Uberti, but (1) it is about $400 more and (2) I don't think it is available yet (though I may be wrong).

Again, sorry about your situation, but thank you for posting and saving me from a bad mistake.

(BTW-I found another thread about these-one guy says they forgot to put some parts inside and it wouldn't fire!)

Bob

[waksupi]

Jim, it's good to hear Doc is still around, and fixing firearms. I've only met him a few times, but was always impressed by him. A good guy, I first met about 32 years ago in Missouri at a rendezvous, if I recollect correct. I stop by, when I travel east. He's still in Crofton, I imagine?

[Paratus]

Maybe the '73s are, but I understand the '76s are made in Germany and assembled in CT.



Check this article http://www.gunblast.com/Chaparral-1876.htm. "....The manufacturer is Chaparral Repeating Arms of Italy."

[KCSO]

From Nick Ecker Owner...

"We had to keep your gun to show the factory people from Italy"
Now if the guns are made in the US why show the defectes to the PARTS SUPPLIER? On the last gun they won't even answer my E mails. I fixed the gun myself and sold it for a loss. Yeah Doc is still in Crofton. If you come this way call as he comes and goes a lot. I thnk these guys took up with the factory that EMF dropped for poor quality work. I will NEVER buy anything from them again and it is too bad because they had a good idea and turned out a good looking product, but is it doesn't shoot it makes no difference how pretty. My conversations with the boss lead me to believe that he is a bean counter and know nothing about guns and that doesn't help.

[9.3X62AL]

KCSO--

An all-around disappoinment on several levels, and thank you for bringing this to the attention of board members.

I'd be interested to learn if any of the 1873 repros are decent shooters that function correctly out of the box. It seems like a crapshoot to buy one, and I don't want to be $1K in the hole just to find out I'll be playing tennis with a service department.

[KCSO]

Al
I have NEVER gotten a bad or defective gun from Cimarron Arms. My last 73 from them was a 44-40 and with the right loads I could put 5 on a playing card at 100 yards. I would have never gotten into this if I hadn't been charmed by the wood.

[9.3X62AL]

Ah, awright.......that is a very good-looking line of firearms, for sure.

[Jon K]

Pretty wood, that's what I thought at first. I looked at 2- a 22" model & a 28 inch model. I did some research- fake wood(epoxy simulation).

I also started reading posts on another forum, no luck so far on good accuracy, groups mentioned did not impress me.

The guns I handled with my mitts were, to be polite, actions were rough and triggers were terrible.

I am a fan of the 40 cal, which is what drew me to the gun, and at that time the Uberti had not yet hit the market. I'm glad I didn't take the leap.

I don't mean to offend anyone, those are just my opinionated observations.

Jon

[fatnhappy]

The Chaparrals are fabricated in Italy and assembled in CT. A pasta eating wino could have chambered your rifle.

MJ

Yeah, well a beer swilling American was supposed to test fire it. Let's hope for the sake of shooting interests, he manages to get a government job.[smilie=1:

KCSO I can sympathize. I personally believe you're better off doing the job yourself, so you know it's right. Let's face it, a warranty is only as good as the company that stands behind it. Your rifle out of the box is demonstrable proof of their competency.

[Hobie]

Buckshot
I just went that route and THIS is what I got...
Can you see someone test firing this and not noticing?
I've a mind to send the rifle to their competitior with my compliments and show it off at every Cowboy shoot across the country!
That sure was a handy invention, milling the post right on the rear sight.

[NickSS]

You can get defective guns even from long time manufacturers. I recently bought a Marlin 94C in 357 mag that would not feed my hand loads. There was a bur on the rear of the chamber that dug into the brass as the cartridge was comming off the lifter and jamming the gun. A little work with a rat tail file and it works perfectly now. I did not feel that sending it back to the company was worth it for such a minor problem. Besides I wanted to shoot the thing now!

[Bigjohn]

Misquote: "QC or not QC; that is the question."

I am glad over the years to have tried many a different style of action and you really get to feel the difference now if you compare some of the older actions against the new made copies. Silk and sandpaper would be a good description.

This is one reason why I try and reject a lot of rifles and handguns.

I would have to agree that there are too many 'Bean Counters' running the quality of firearms into the ground all in the name of the "Bottomline" $$$$$$$$.

Prehaps, they could extend a reasonable discount on their products if they expect the buyer to finish them off to the customers own spec's?

At present, I am keeping an eye out for a goood older model Lever Action in a pistol cartridge around .35/.40 cal. I'll just have to keep looking.

John

[jim4065]

Man - am I ever glad I found this forum. I saw an 1876 Chaparral on Auction Arms (#7735804) for $995 with what appeared to be beautiful wood. Before bidding I researched here and read about all these problems - and it's fake grain in the wood. Sorry about all the problems KCSO, but thanks for telling us about it.

Jim

[lovedogs]

And people wonder why no one is "patriotic" and buys American! I'm patriotic but not stupid. Just look at the difference in cars, guns, electronics, or wherever you want to look. We are outdone by the Japanese, Germans, Austrians... just about everyone but the Chinese and Pakistanis!

We lamented Winchester closing down their factories where they made '94's and 70's. I hope for our sake when they get into production again they'll be made in Japan. Every gun I've ever had made there was perfect.

Between unions, greed, and lack of pride in our workmanship our manufacturers have managed to screw up almost everything made in the U.SA.

[hydraulic]

You know, if a man was going to spend a thousand dollars on a Winchester clone, and wind up getting a poorly made rifle, there is another way. I routinely see refinished, buggered up original '73's at the gun shows for not much more than that. KCSO can install liners, and with a little work they can be made into good BP shooters. Come to think of it, I'm going down to the Tulsa show in a couple of weeks. I'm going to take my own advice and see what I come up with.

[PAT303]

Don't burn me at the stake for saying this but it seems that you guys want the best but don't want to pay for it.The price you pay is nothing compaired to what we pay in Australia.I see on the news that you complain about the cost of fuel,we pay four(4) times what you pay,our powder is 35 dollars for 500grms even your cars are half the cost the list could go on. American companies (Wallmart) get there products from China for a very good reason,because you want to buy a new rifle or whatever that is perfectly good in everyway but only pay peanuts. That is a fact. I've no dought i've annoyed people but what I wrote is the truth. Pat

[Dale53]

Actually, Americans do good work in Stateside Japanese factories (Honda and Toyota). They have much better middle and upper management, in my view. My van is American because of design features but my wife's car is a Lexus, the finest car I have ever owned.

If the car I need is available in a Japanese make, it is a no brainer for me.

This Chapparal story is enough to make one sick.

The general problem in America is primarily "Bottom line, today"! To heck with tomorrow. That is NO way to do business.

Dale53

[Buckshot]

Don't burn me at the stake for saying this but it seems that you guys want the best but don't want to pay for it.The price you pay is nothing compaired to what we pay in Australia.I see on the news that you complain about the cost of fuel,we pay four(4) times what you pay,our powder is 35 dollars for 500grms even your cars are half the cost the list could go on. American companies (Wallmart) get there products from China for a very good reason,because you want to buy a new rifle or whatever that is perfectly good in everyway but only pay peanuts. That is a fact. I've no dought i've annoyed people but what I wrote is the truth. Pat


Pat, you can annoy people by telling the truth because they don't want to hear that. We have been truly spoiled, and spoiled for so long that we've built a lifestyle around it. More, better, bigger, and it's gotta be cheap!

.................Buckshot

[fatnhappy]

Don't burn me at the stake for saying this but it seems that you guys want the best but don't want to pay for it.The price you pay is nothing compaired to what we pay in Australia.I see on the news that you complain about the cost of fuel,we pay four(4) times what you pay,our powder is 35 dollars for 500grms even your cars are half the cost the list could go on. American companies (Wallmart) get there products from China for a very good reason,because you want to buy a new rifle or whatever that is perfectly good in everyway but only pay peanuts. That is a fact. I've no dought i've annoyed people but what I wrote is the truth. Pat


that's the wonderful part about capitalism. We can rightfully demand good products at cheap prices, because somebody will deliver.

[hydraulic]

We also pay $1000 a month for health insurance. What's it cost in Australia?

[PAT303]

We pay an amount each week out of our tax,I don't no what it is plus insurance,the amount depends on what cover you want plus at the end of each year we pay a percentage of our total earnings on top of a tax rate, for me it is 40 percent of my wage,it was worse I used to pay 48%. We sell alot of new cars in oz because people buy them in there pay package to lower the total taxable income even though you loose money on the car the loss is less.Like the states we have to keep the polititions comfortable. Pat

[fatnhappy]

I used to pay 48%.

we have to keep the polititions comfortable. Pat

sounds like an excellent reason to save lead and powder to me.

[BruceB]

OH yeah...the glories of socialized medicine. My last full year of work in Canada, 1996, grossed me about $86,000. The taxes, direct payroll taxes deducted at source, were almost $40,000. Then there was the Goods and Services (federal)Tax on most things we bought, plus legions of hidden taxes in addition to that, plus provincial sales taxes in most provinces. And, the medical system is in very poor shape. I buy beer (even imported CANADIAN beer) in Nevada for less than we paid for Pepsi in the Northwest Territories.....taxes, taxes, taxes.

The Japanese-built guns I've owned or shot, not all that many, have been excellent. Our Beretta pistols and shotguns, all made in Italy, are wonderful. I had a Colt-marketed 1851 Navy with Italian proofs which would not come even close to full-cock! The finish was beautiful, but it was unshootable! How was it "proofed"?

I reckon it's "caveat emptor", but how is a buyer supposed to know that the specimen in his hands at the store will actually function and fire? Good used examples usually can tell us that they've worked in the past, but new ones offer no such information.

[jim4065]

Been a card-carryin' Republican for the last bunch of years, and I still think Reagan was the greatest American President, ever.
That said, I can't say that I'm all that happy with capitalized medicine. Instead of paying a bunch of government flunkies to freeload off us and pad our taxes, we pay a bunch of insurance flunkies to freeload off us and pad their prices.
Not so? Been to the dentist lately? The goverment limits the number of practitioners to hold up prices. They pay medical schools to teach medicine and then pay extra so they won't fill all the seats. Something wrong when our highest paid professions are the "healers". (I don't think of actors, singers, jugglers and other "entertainers" as a profession - they're more of an aberration.)

Jim