Identify a gun?

[David2011]

My Dad has an old gun that I'm trying to identify. It looks very much like an 1842 Springfield except that it's a breech loading musket or shotgun and has a firing pin instead of provisions for a percussion cap. There is no ramrod. It has a breech door that hinges on the left side. It will chamber a 12 gauge shotgun shell but at a gun show someone with a similar weapon said it was a breech loading cartridge musket of .67 or .69 caliber. The only marking on it that I recall is "1857" stamped on every major part. Possibly a year, also possibly a serial number. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I'll post a picture when I get to my other computer.

David

[Frank46]

Sounds like an 1858 snider breechloader. Came in 58 caliber and at the start used a coiled brass cartridge case. Pics would help more to better identify what you have. Frank

[missionary5155]

Good morning
At the end of that war there were all sorts of modifications made to Muzzlelaoders to win Army acceptance for mass production. The deck was stacked against any thing designed out side of Springfield but many great ideas popped up from small shops.
So there are at least 7 possibilities out there that use a hinge idea. Most were built on the .58 barrel so possible yours being a .69 it is another on of the obscure attempts.

[David2011]

Here are the photos. The gun appears to be a conversion from a muzzleloader because there is a filler in the foreend where a ramrod was and the stock is no longer muzzleloader length. Thanks for taking a look!

David

[curator]

You have a converted French or Austrian musket using the "Snyder" conversion. Marketed in the U.S. from about 1870 to 1900+ under then name"Zulu." Most of these were made with gunmetal bronze breech blocks and were safe with black powder loads. These were made in several gauges: 24, 16, 14, 12, and 10 gauge depending on the barrel's diameter. You should make a chamber cast before attempting to load anything for it. There are quite a few of these arround here in the US and Europe and north Africa. Bannerman's catalog from 1910 shows one for sale for $3.00.

[David2011]

Curator,

Thanks for the info. I have no interest in shooting it. It's been passed down in the family for a few generations and I just wanted to know what it was. Knowing what it is adds to the family value even though they don't appear to be worth much as collectibles. Compared to what I've found on the Internet today, this one is in pretty nice shape. I'll have to work on the rust next time I see my parents, though. A litte gunoil and very fine steel wool wil do wonders.

David

[leadman]

I would not steel wool it as part of the value of a collectible is the patina. Oil does not hurt the metal part and maybe a scrubbing with a cloth rag in Hoppe's to remove loose rust.

Others more knowledgeable please chime in.

[Combat Diver]

Do not use a varnish on the stock. Just wipe down with a clean cloth with Boiled Linseed Oil. Just oil the metal with your favorite gun oil.

[curator]

Use fine bronze wool and oil on the rust. This will take the rust off without damaging the finish on the metal. I suspect the gun was re-blued at sometime as these were originally without any kind of finish on the metal. Yours does seem to be in excellent condition judging from the photos. Boiled linseed oil on the stock is also good advise, but don't overdo it. In the museum business we use Renaissance wax or Balistol on both metal and wood.

[David2011]

The gun was reblued in the 1960s. My Dad had a friend who reblued two collectibles for him. The other was an 1893 Marlin .32-40 that I recently got from him. I've never had oil and fine steel wool damage bluing. Bronze wool is certainly a viable, gentle alternative. Down in the crevices a bronze toothbrush does well.

Leadman, this is not a particularly valuable collectible and I'm more concerned with preserving the metal and getting the rust stopped. Typically oil and steel or bronze wool will remove the rust and leave the bluing underneath intact on this kind of rust. Based on numerous previous experiences the patina is not disturbed. I clean up my customers' guns like this from time to time and the only time I see bluing loss is when there is detectable pitting. The soft powdery rust is pretty easy to remove and stop. My Dad has been very good about keeping his guns oiled. Every week while helping Mom clean house he wipes them down with LEMON PLEDGE furniture polish. I mentioned that he might want to use gun oil and gave him a commercial gun wipe cloth.

I wouldn't advise put boiled linseed oil on this stock. It already has a finish which might not be compatible. I think my Dad varnished it when it was reblued in the '60s. The only way I would recommend boiled linseed oil is if it were stripped back to the bare wood first. It's not my gun so I don't intend to do anything other than stop the rust; I was just curious what it was and as usual the wealth of knowledge on this site came through.

Curator, I like your Renaissance/Balistol advice and will pass it on to family and customers. I'll add some bronze wool to my inventory as well. I have reservations when a customer wants to reblue an old heirloom gun but typically they're grandpa's old .22 or something that was made in the millions and has far more sentimental value than collectible value and they're usually so pitted and beaten up that there is no collector value anyway. At that point we discuss collectible value vs. preserving the gun and most want the rust stopped and the appearance restored. In deference to the original finishes I prefer to keep a safe distance beween the metal and the buffing wheel. If I do refinish an older gun I like to try to determine what the original grit finish was and replicate it as closely as possible. Most early 20th century high volume production guns had nice finishes but they still appear to be machine polished with sanding grits instead of buffing wheels so I try to replicate the original polish. The customers tend to unanimously agree when they see the finished job that it was better to not buff to a high gloss.

Thanks to all!

David

[fourarmed]

In the late 1860s, most major powers were looking for breechloading military rifles, and started by converting their percussion rifles. We had the Allin, Britain had the Snyder, your zulu started out as the French version. They sold them to Belgium, and Belgium made shotguns of them and sold them all over the world. I have seen lots of them. They were made from several models of French muskets.