1873 Winchester 38-40 Load help???

[Terryrm1-03]

Hi Guys, I have an original 73 Winchester 38-40. Brass and bullets on the way from Midway. Do I load 40 grs of Black powder or American Pioneer. Wanna shoot this thing and see how it does. Or any other load OK in the old thing?
thanks for any help.
TerryR

[w30wcf]

TerryR,
My personal preference would be FFG Black powder in 35 gr doses.......but you will need cast bullets with lube designed to be used with b.p.

If the bullets you're getting are lubed with smokeless lube, then APP would be the powder of choice using the same volume as 35 gr. of b.p.

w30wcf

[JMtoolman]

My old Lyman hand book #39 lists 158 grain HP with 5.9 grains of bullseye, or 10 grains of Unique.

[cajun shooter]

You will go to a very hot place if you put fake powder in an original 1873 38-40. That rifle was made and designed for BP only.In Mike Venturino book Shooting Lever Guns of The Old West states that if the guns serial number before 1900 then it should be fired with nothing but BP!! The 38-40 is really misnamed as it is truly a 40 caliber gun shooting a bullet that is .401 in diameter. You should also slug your bore as quite a few left the factory with oversize bores. Both Lyman and RCBS makes molds for the rifle. They are just the same as the 44-40 bullets but smaller. In fact a 38-40 is just a necked down 44-40 case. Many people even made the gun as it is so close to the 44-40 but they were most likely making a rifle that would be the same as the revolvers in that caliber as it is a pistol cartridge. A lot of valuable 1873's are out there make sure you know what you have before shooting it. Stay away from smokeless. If you want a hard shooting rifle then buy a modern gun and save that 73.

[Harry O]

I am currently shooting a Uberti 1873 clone in 38-40 for CAS shooting. I am using purchased bullets and 5.0gr of Trail Boss for the time being. The load is accurate, recoil light, and the velocity is comfortably more than the minimums allowed. I really don't know if this is safe for original 1873's.

I originally tried black powder, but have not worked out the problems, at least yet. I intend to do some more experimenting this winter. First, you will not get 40 grains in it. About 35gr is the most you can get with modern brass without going to excessive compression.

If you buy bullets, they are all too hard for good accuracy with BP. I am buying special "CAS bullets" (for a little bit more money) since they are Bhn 9 instead of the normal Bhn 15 (or more). That is still too hard. I use Bhn 6 for my BP handgun loads (in 41LC).

Another problem is the lube on purchased bullets. It is no good for BP. I have seen a few places that will use SPG lube for a fairly large increase in cost. It works, though. I used it in my 41LC BP loads.

The reason I do not cast my own bullets for the 38-40 is because I have not found a mould that works. The standard Lyman 401043 and the RCBS copy of it do not have a crimping groove. THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT IN A RIFLE. I have had those bullets push down into the case and jam the gun twice before giving up on them. This is even with BP and light compression. You will need a LOT of compression to keep the bullet from getting pushed down into the case. I had case bulging problems with heavy compression in the thin 38-40 case.

I bout a new NEI mould for the 38-40 and it jammed the gun every time. It had a crimping groove, but it was in the wrong place -- just a little too long. The 1873 is notorious for being VERY picky when it comes to OAL. I did some testing on mine and found that (this is from memory) about 0.005" to 0.006" shorter than what is shown in the loading manuals would jam it. Longer by 0.003" to 0.004" would also jam it. The Lyman 401452 has a crimping groove, but is way, way too long. I have a new Rapine hollow-base mould that I will be trying over the winter.

The only bullet that I have found that works is one that was made from a commercial Magma mould. Even if I got one, I wonder if the lube groove is big enough to hold enough lube for a 24" barrel. I have not tried this specific combination, but several other rifles that I have tried (for example, a 45-70 Remington Rolling Block) with BP required a lube cookie under the bullet. The 401043 was very marginal in that respect (without a cookie). I would not work on a hot, dry day with BP. A cool, humid day was OK. A cookie might be a little bit difficult to get to work in the necked down 38-40 case.

Good luck and have fun.

[Terryrm1-03]

OK, My brass and bullets came. The bullets are Goex Black Dawge lubed with SPG. I had the American Pioneer close so I loaded 5 shells just to see what would happen. Set up 35yds (I know thats not far) but I just didn't know how long ago this gun had been fired. 1st shot 9 o'clock 2nd shot 12 o'clock, then right in between 9 and 12 she clustered 3 rds together. WOO HOO! Man she sounded GOOD! I just LOVE how the 73 fits in your shoulder and sighting it.
But now, I need to ask, all I could get in was 30 grs. That was to the top so I had to compress the powder. I compress my BP for my Trapdoor to get 70 grs. Am I going to have to have a compression die made? Any thoughts? And what do I use to slug this barrel. The .401 bullets seem to slide in easy. If she's oversize any molds made larger to buy?
Thanks for ALL the INPUT! I really appreciate it, and YES Cajun Shooter I'll use BP. I enjoy shootng my trapdoor with the 70 gr compressed load.
Terry

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I also have 73´s in 38-40 ( I actually prefer it to 44-40) . I would use 2F. I would not use any of the subs in a 73.
You will want to slug the throat area. Just take one of your boolits and squeze it a bit in a vice to .410 and easily tap it into the chamber / throat. tap it back out and IF that boolit will enter a fired case you are good. That would be my desired diameter. Oversized molds are available from numerous vendors (NEI and others)
If you do not have lube evidence at the muzzle smear a little dab of lube in the bullet nose before loading.
I

[Terryrm1-03]

Cuts good rifling, bore measures .401 so am I needing a .402 bullet????
Thanks Terry

[missionary5155]

Greetings Terry
I still recommend you find out what the throat area is. That is where everything happens of great importance. You also want to check the muzzle for excessive wear.
When I am up in the US I live in the Danville area.

[Terryrm1-03]

Do I take the bolt etc out to slug the throat, or is there a way to tap it in with everything in place?
And we're only a few hrs apart when you come home. Nice to meet you, and thanks for your help!
Terry

[Terryrm1-03]

Finally got the throat measured in the 73 Win. It measures .404. Is that good or bad?
Thanks Terry

[KirkD]

.404 is not bad, provided the groove diameter is less than the throat diameter. Hopefully, your groove diameter is around .401. The other proviso is that you are NOT using hard cast bullets. According to a copy of Winchester's 1895 catalogue, original 38 WCF (38-40) bullets were made of 'pure lead'. I don't use pure lead bullets in my 38-40, but I use pure clip-on wheel weights with a BHN of around 12. Pure lead has a BHN of around 5. If your alloy is too hard, you will get the high pressure gases blowing by your bullet right from the get go in the throat, which will start leading things up in the bore just forward of the throat. Your first few shots may be reasonably accurate, but the wheels will come off the wagon after three or four shots if you are getting blow by in your throat. Bottom line: use soft cast bullets made of stick-on wheel weights, or 1:20 or 1:40 or even clip on wheel weights so the bullet is soft enough to bump up right on the throat, then swage down to .401 in the bore.

With regard to some of the things said about smokeless powders in original '73's ....... if you don't have a decent understanding about the burn rates of various powders, some of which produce higher peak pressures than BP, some of which produce identical pressure curves as BP and some of which produce lower pressure curves than BP, then it is best to stick with BP. Myself, I have an original Winchester '73 and I shoot nothing but smokeless powder in it BUT I use 13.5 grains of 2400 under a SPG lubed 180 grain cast bullet (clip on wheel weights) and I stick with the original BP ballistics to get 1,317 fps. That gives me a virtually identical pressure curve as FFg, but a lower pressure curve than FFFg. If a fellow uses smokeless powders faster than Blue Dot, or wants velocities higher than BP velocities, then he can get onto some thin ice if he doesn't know what he is doing. If you use slower smokeless powders to get BP velocities, you can do so with lower pressure curves than BP, but the pressure may be so low that it fails to temporarily seal the case against the chamber walls during firing. This will put a lot more thrust on the bolt face/toggle links, which you do not want either. So too low a pressure is not good and too high a pressure is not good. So the bottom line is that you are safest with BP, but if you know what you are doing, you can use certain smokeless loads to get identical BP pressures and velocities (but without the smoke and boom, alas). On the other hand, I can shoot my '73 for several weeks and with hundreds of rounds without cleaning if I am using smokeless. So there are advantages either way.

[FromTheWoods]

I've been using 5.6 grains of Titegroup in my original '73 for thousands of shots. Not casting my own, so 180 gr. Laser Cast are going down the barrel.

Is this load safe? Or have I been lucky to this point? (Not intending to steal the thread, but I would have recommended Titegroup to the original poster.)

[Le Loup Solitaire]

In loading for the 73 Winchester with 38-40 there are a couple of things to keep in mind; the steel and action of a 73 are not strong. It was made at a time when the only propellant around was BP. Smokeless can be used and there are a lot of possible loadings to be successfully tried, but it is far wiser to keep velocity down to 1200-1300 fps. The original bullet designed for this cartridge is/was Lyman #40143 (now 401043). The problem with it specifically, is that unless you load a caseful of, and compressed, BP....this bullet will be pushed back into the case by the magazine spring.... and that is with the case mouth just ahead of the forward band. When I originally tried to load appropriate charges of smokeless with this bullet and applied a crimp behind the front band the OAL was too long to allow the cartridges to feed from the magazine. the only way I could get a worthwhile crimp just forward of, and actually on, the front band was with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. That worked by..in essence by placing a sort of stab crimp on the case mouth. With the cost of 38-40 brass and the thinness of it in the neck and mouth area, I was not optimistic about case life. To get around this rigamarole and still be able to use the 043 bullet and smokeless I went to the following solution; I trimmed the cases back by the thickness of the front band and placed a slight rolll crimp on the bullet behind the front band. With the bullet so seated, there is no problem with telescoping bullets in the magazine, the OAL is correct and there is no problem with feeding up thru the brass cartridge elevator. It works well and also in my Ruger Blackhawk; the bullets cannot pull forward due to recoil. It is true that the loading density is changed slightly by the shortened case, but with light loadings for the 73 it is of no consequence. In the Blackhawk the same can be said as the Ruger is much stronger in the metal than the 73. LLS

[405]

1st, congrats on a great gun and caliber.
Up to you on loading smokeless. If new to the game, I'd stick with real BP. Actually, the toggle link actions are fairly stout but may tend to set back over time if pushing pressure limits. The barrel wall and receiver ring metals of the BP era are the weak links. No need to push it anyway- think period ballistics- not modern magnum ballistics. Even though the production of the 73 spanned well into the smokeless era by about a quarter century... they are what they are- basically a mid 1800s design. Back in the mid to late 1800s, ballistics were tied to blackpowder and were mild. No need to try to compress BP any great amount. Since the era BP ballistics were mild without much variation, there's nothing of note to gain by cramming 35 grains of BP in there. If the case will hold 30 gr BP with the right bullet slightly compressing it.... it is just right.

[KirkD]

I've been using 5.6 grains of Titegroup in my original '73 for thousands of shots. Not casting my own, so 180 gr. Laser Cast are going down the barrel.

Is this load safe?
Well, on the plus side, your '73 seems to be handling it for thousands of rounds. On the negative side, Titegroup is a very fast powder that, for the same bullet weight and to attain BP velocities, would produce a peak pressure much higher than BP. It would be interesting to chronograph your load. Titegroup has a Relative Quickness (RQ) of roughly 85. To match BP pressure curves and ballistics, you need smokeless powders with a RQ somewhere between 27 and 38. As you can see, Titegroup could cause problems if one uses it to obtain 1,300 fps. Hopefully, your muzzle velocity is significantly less than 1,300 fps if you are using Titegroup. Personally, I would not use it.

[FromTheWoods]

Thank you, Kirk.

I haven't chronographed the load. When I began loading this combination, the charts put the mv between 800-900 fps--but that is out of a handgun.

It seems light on recoil and doesn't get to where it's going very fast. Though, we have killed several blacktails and mule deer with it.

[w30wcf]

Terry,
With b.p. and a soft bullet, throat / groove diameter become much less important because the b.p. will bump up the bullet to fill the throat and groove.

As an example of this, I have a '73 Winchester in 44 W.C.F. made in 1882. It has an oversized barrel that measures .433" in the grooves. With smokeless and .428" bullets, accuracy is nil with all bullets keyholing.

BUT.....with a .428" diameter 40/1 cast bullet and b.p. it shoots very well. :D

Here's the original 38 W.C.F. / 38-40 bullet for b.p. offered by Buffalo Arms
http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/401043.jpg
It is to be crimped over the front driving band.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,245.html

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

......But now, I need to ask, all I could get in was 30 grs. That was to the top so I had to compress the powder. I compress my BP for my Trapdoor to get 70 grs. Am I going to have to have a compression die made? Any thoughts? ...... Terry

Terry,
You can use your neck expansion die, especially if it is a Lyman "M" die. That's what I use for the 44-40 and it works well. You mentioned 30 grs. of APP was the most you could get into the case. I don't know if APP should be compressed that much without raising pressures since it is not true b.p.

w30wcf

[cajun shooter]

The reason you could only get 30 grains in is that APP IS NOT BP!!! The size and make up of the grains are completely different. App is also very corrosive, much more so than real BP. You also need to buy the Lee FCD. Load in a four stage process. Seat The bullet in one stage and crimp in the final. The best way to find your OAL is with your rifle. Turn it upside down in your lap and open the lever part way. Then lay your round on the carrier. If it fits with some small leeway then you are fine but if it sticks it is too long for your rifle. The reason the Lee FCD is so good is that you can load past the crimp ring if it has one or make one with the die so that you have a good fit for your rifle. Very important if using bullet with out one and smokeless powder. Enjoy that 73 but only with what it was designed to shoot. The fire and smoke that you get is like the adds say PRICELESS. If you don't have some Ballistol then buy some quick from Midway or some place that has it. I mix it 7 parts water to 1 part Ballistol or 2 oz of Ballistol and 14 oz of water for one pint. It is all you need beside your normal oil. Put it in a spray bottle and spray the inside of the barrel and action. It will not hurt the rifle. When the water has evaporated you have oil left.

[Springfield]

For those who need a 38-40 BP bullet with enough lube, and a crimp groove to boot, this should work. It is the Big Lube(tm) bullet, moulds available from www.biglube.com Sized and lubed bullets available from www.whyteleatherworks.com

[Terryrm1-03]

WOW! That's a BIG lube groove! Thanks for the info TerryR

[KirkD]

Thank you, Kirk.

I haven't chronographed the load. When I began loading this combination, the charts put the mv between 800-900 fps--but that is out of a handgun.

It seems light on recoil and doesn't get to where it's going very fast. Though, we have killed several blacktails and mule deer with it.
You can probably add about 150 fps for a rifle, so I'd guess your Titegroup load is putting those cast bullets out the barrel at around 1050 fps at most. That is quite a bit lower than BP velocities, but I certainly would not increase your Titegroup load. As I mentioned earlier, it is a very fast powder that, in order to match BP ballistics, will give a much higher pressure spike. If you want to match BP ballistics with smokeless, you should probably use a slower powder like 2400, 5744 or SR4759. Those powders will give you a pressure curve that closely matches FFg, or is actually slightly lower than FFg. Your accuracy may suffer, however, if the bullet is too hard, as the lower pressure spike may not obdurate the bullet. Best to use soft cast bullets for BP and smokeless loads matching BP pressures and ballistics.

Very interesting that you've killed several deer with a 180 grain bullet traveling no faster than 1050 fps. That says something for the ability of the 38-40 to take deer at the faster BP ballistics.

[cajun shooter]

KirkD, I shoot the 44-40 cartridge in SASS cowboy shooting and fire about 400-500 ruonds a month. The cleaning process from the BP takes about 3 min. at best. One wet patch, one dry and the snake and my gun is clean. The 38-40 and 44-40 both with the proper fitting bullet and lube have no blowback. The shiney new cases that I put in also come out that way. Also more fun than that fake stuff you are using.

[KirkD]

Cajun Shooter, I certainly agree that BP is more fun, with the boom and smoke. My '73 has a fair amount of moderate pitting, so I think it would be difficult to ensure that I've got all the residue cleaned out of those pits. I can still get 3" groups at 100 yard with plain base bullets and smokeless, so I'm happy.