Best Bullet Weight

[RobS]

Any thoughts from members here on "best" bullet weight for the current scenario:

45 caliber revolver: Ruger SRH 454 Casull
7 1/2" barrel
twist rate 1:24"
Velocity range 1100 to 1200
PB bullet design
Alloy: air cooled WW's

Please feel free to explain your reasoning as to support your response (scientific if you want or personal experience) as it will be more educational. Do note the twist rate at being 1:24" which is slower than the standard 45 colt being at 1:16" in many revolvers.

[Dale53]

Robs;
It would be helpful if you would outline the use of the load. If I were hunting deer at under 100 yards, then any decent bullet design with a wide meplat from 250-300 grs would get the job done. If I were intending to use this for really LARGE game (Elk or Brown Bear) that would make a difference.

It would also help if you mentioned which revolver you were going to use. .45 Colt SAA's have rather short cylinders (compared to Ruger BlackHawks, as an example). The more information WE have the better we can help YOU.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[RobS]

Dale53:

The specifics to actual boolit design I am not after as I don't want a thread that makes its way into a WFN, LFN, Keith or best killing bullet pissing match etc. etc. I could even see the tread shifting to boolit hardness/alloy strength and the whole lot of other hoopla that could come with it.

I'm more after what people think is optimal regarding boolit weight to twist rate at a given velocity as I outlined; boolit stability is what I am really after. I should have clarified that in the opening post; I guess my thoughts were there just not written down. As to more info if needed, the boolit would be shot from a SRH 454 Casull.

[geargnasher]

This ought to start some controversy regardless of intended use. I'll go make some popcorn....

Oh, and given only the above criteria, I would go for 230 grain boolits.

Gear

[RobS]

Popcorn should be done and cooked :) and I hope you are enjoying yourself...........I think I'll go for a beer.:drinks: Why would you say 230 grains? Actually I should probably note alloy used as it does have direct influence here; so air cooled WW and I'll make that change in the opening post.

[geargnasher]

Because if I were going to load for a .454 Casull with a twist that slow, and only wanted to push a pb to 1200 fps max, that's the boolit weight most likely to have the POI that matches the POA of the typical faster, heavier boolits for that cartridge. Plus I don't like the recoil of those hand-cannons, and I'd like to shoot the lightest boolit I can. Either a SAA (255-ish) or any 230 offering would suffice quite well with that slow twist, anything much heavier might hit too high at your preferred velocity range. Sure, you can adjust your RRH sights, but I prefer to have one setting and leave it be, craft the ammo to hit where you want it to. Just my thoughts.

Something else that I would want to try but not sure how well it would work would be the RCBS 270 SAA Keith semi-wadcutter pushed to about 1350 fps.

Gear

[RobS]

The 280 grain Keith at 1350 fps would be a load with some pretty decent recoil.......I have shot this boolit at 1220ish fps and it's a very good load and will let you know you pulled the trigger. At 1100 fps loaded with 12.5 grains of Herco it is a mild recoiler and I have good groups. However the higher velocity load shoots a touch better. I have a LFN 310 grain GC boolit that I have great accuracy with and more so with it moving along at 1300 fps or faster.

The problem that I am having with pushing the 280g Keith velocities at or over 1200 fps is I start to have leading at the muzzle with the powders I am using. I've used LARS Carnauba Red, a mix of 50/50 Carnauba and BAC, and straight BAC. The best lube for the job as been straight BAC so far.

The slowest powder I have used is 2400 so far with the Keith boolit and I am still leading at the muzzle so I could look at switching to a slower powder to keep the velocity up, which I prefer not to do as it will mean using a larger powder charge, or look at possible moving to a lighter PB bullet. I was thinking of maybe 250-260 grains for that 1100 to 1200 fps as the most stable boolit weight.

Now the cat's out of the bag.

[Dale53]

My choice would be the 45-270-SAA. It is rather short for it's weight and should work well in the slow twist revolver. The only 454 Casulls I have are two Taurus Raging Bulls. I'll have to try them with the RCBS 45-270-SAA but it won't necessarily mean much to your revolver as I have no idea what twist the Taurus has.

I see one thing going on here that we should work together to eliminate - it is NOT how much the bullet weighs but how LONG the bullet is. Heavier bullets are not always the longest - it depends on shape, etc. We should get used to discussing bullet length. It will lead to more accuracy of discussions.

Just a thought or two...
Dale53

[RobS]

My choice would be the 45-270-SAA. It is rather short for it's weight and should work well in the slow twist revolver. The only 454 Casulls I have are two Taurus Raging Bulls. I'll have to try them with the RCBS 45-270-SAA but it won't necessarily mean much to your revolver as I have no idea what twist the Taurus has.

I see one thing going on here that we should work together to eliminate - it is NOT how much the bullet weighs but how LONG the bullet is. Heavier bullets are not always the longest - it depends on shape, etc. We should get used to discussing bullet length. It will lead to more accuracy of discussions.

Just a thought or two...
Dale53

From what I read the Taurus uses a 1:24 twist as well. It is a good point referring to boolit length.

[fredj338]

My choice would be the 45-270-SAA. It is rather short for it's weight and should work well in the slow twist revolver. The only 454 Casulls I have are two Taurus Raging Bulls. I'll have to try them with the RCBS 45-270-SAA but it won't necessarily mean much to your revolver as I have no idea what twist the Taurus has.
Dale53
This is my hevy 45colt bullet of choice. Cast from ww, it runs 280gr+/-. Very accurate @ 1100fps in my RBH, about as hard as I want to push that bullet in a 4 5/8" gun.

[RobS]

fredj338:

I'm sure the bullet runs well at 1100 fps in the BH as it has a 1:16" twist and I believe the bullet was designed around the thought of such twist rate. Do you think that with a 1:24" twist it would do better to go with a lighter/shorter bullet at 1100 fps to maximum 1200 fps.

I was really hoping some of the senior members might have a bit of info to share on this topic as well; Felix, 44man, Brett, Loyd among many others out there on the forum???? Where are you guys?

[Edubya]

Are you snubbing the advice of Dale53? He has proven to be one of the best and most helpful on this board. He has the experience, knowledge and I doubt that any of those that you specify would care to argue against his word.
Thought that anyone that's been around this board for even a year would have identified that.

EW

[onesonek]

Basically I don't know that you can have too much pentration, but you can have too little. I tend to think of as what if, or plan for the worst possible scenario. So for simple basic answer,,,shoot all the weight you and the revolver can shoot accurately.

Dave

[RobS]

Are you snubbing the advice of Dale53? He has proven to be one of the best and most helpful on this board. He has the experience, knowledge and I doubt that any of those that you specify would care to argue against his word.
Thought that anyone that's been around this board for even a year would have identified that.

EW

I know Dale is knowledgeable and wouldn't refute this and never did either, I only stated that there are others here as well that may have some to share.

And by the way.........thanks for your contribution to the thread :roll:...........and with that you have not provided any useful information thus far so please refrain from adding anything further.

[454PB]

I own 3 .454 Casull revolvers, one is the gun you describe.

When I use plain base boolits, I keep velocity down to around 1200 fps. Yes, I have pushed them harder, but I begin to see some leading at around 1300.

Though I have moulds for 8 different .45 designs, the two "light weight" ones that have produced the best accuracy are the Lee 255 gr. SWC and Lyman 260 gr. 452424.

[RobS]

454PB:

Very good.........I was looking for some experience with 1:24" twist rate 45 caliber results. Excellent and thanks for your input.

[leadman]

This info is not for a 454, but I feel it will apply just the same. I experimented with my Ruger SBH hunter in 41 mag. with various lubes and powders.
I ran into the same leading problem towards the muzzle with all lubes with 2400 at higher velocities except for LBT Blue Soft. I know many people do not like this lube, but in certain instances it works very well.
It may be worth while to try it to eleminate the leading.

[onesonek]

Thinking about this some more Rob, I decided to run the ballistic program to see what if any is "optimal". First off according to the GH Formula, you can shoot a max bullet length of 1.28" in a 1in 24" twist. Now the GHF is based pretty much on length, but to find optimum, one really need to consider bullet design. So I ran few different designs. Ideally you want a gyro stability factor of 1.5, but general consensus is to go to gsf of 2, too account for down range RPM degradation. What I found in the program, is all the bullet weights from 270 to 335 weights. ALL were above GSF of 2. and what I really found interesting, is that the GSF just about doubled with all going from 1100 to 1200 fps. Still essentially they were all "over stabilized" ,,,,,better than being under!!!!!
The bullet weight that came close to optimal in a 24" twist was a somewhat hypothetical bullet weighing 410 grs..
Well with all that , I have shot 250's up to 395's in my .454, and I too run them all at 11-1200 fps. They all give acceptable hunting accuracy in my mind.Some shoot better than others. But I like a 340gr. HP best that a buddy gave me to try. But for say like Elk, I would go with a plain Meplat(non HP) in close to that weight.

Dave

[Changeling]

Thinking about this some more Rob, I decided to run the ballistic program to see what if any is "optimal". First off according to the GH Formula, you can shoot a max bullet length of 1.28" in a 1in 24" twist. Now the GHF is based pretty much on length, but to find optimum, one really need to consider bullet design. So I ran few different designs. Ideally you want a gyro stability factor of 1.5, but general consensus is to go to gsf of 2, too account for down range RPM degradation. What I found in the program, is all the bullet weights from 270 to 335 weights. ALL were above GSF of 2. and what I really found interesting, is that the GSF just about doubled with all going from 1100 to 1200 fps. Still essentially they were all "over stabilized" ,,,,,better than being under!!!!!
The bullet weight that came close to optimal in a 24" twist was a somewhat hypothetical bullet weighing 410 grs..
Well with all that , I have shot 250's up to 395's in my .454, and I too run them all at 11-1200 fps. They all give acceptable hunting accuracy in my mind.Some shoot better than others. But I like a 340gr. HP best that a buddy gave me to try. But for say like Elk, I would go with a plain Meplat(non HP) in close to that weight.

Dave


Weight of a projectile really means very little, when referring to standard/any calibers, it is the bullet length that determines the necessary rate of twist to to stabilize a bullet of some given length within that caliber.

ROB-
People say weight because as weight increases most think length increases as is logical. However for a given weight/caliber there are relatively short bullets and also bullets that are relatively very long witch would there fore call for faster twist rates to stabilize the projectile.

In short, the longer the bullet the faster the rate of twist must be. These vary from caliber to caliber!


There are formulas on the Internet that can supposedly help describe the twist rate necessary for a given caliber length. But I don't have a link to them Rob.
The term "over stabilization" starts meaning something ONLY to benchrest people who are going for the "Last" thread of accuracy and even then the rules of ballistics can be totally upset relative to twist rate.
Stay "well within" the twist rate necessary to stabilize your projectile and put all other efforts into the bullet fit, that way you can't possibly loose!

The best advise I can give on the subject would be, when in doubt of the twist rate to order with a new barrel, talk to the barrel maker, thats his job and he knows what he is doing if he is a credible barrel maker.
Rob, do this call Dan Lilja of "Lilja Barrels", explain what you have in detail with all your known factors and ask him what bullet length range you are limited to at whatever velocity you tell him.

If you don't get an answer let me know!

[Bass Ackward]

The whole key is three factors for a good launch and one after.

Load balance, distance, and hardness affect the launch. Trying to match bullet weight to twist rate is useless if you have a case capacity that is excess for a certain weight.

You still must get consistent ignition. If the case isn't filled with powder to produce that velocity range or bullet, it must be filled with something else or it is going to throw you a curve and have you come up with twist rate theories when it is all ignition.

Regardless of weight, your best accuracy is going to occur just before leading begins. That means that you must also consider hardness in your equation.

After you get a good launch, bullet design with center of balance comes into play for a range factor.

Bottom line is: if you are looking for a weight alone, you are ignoring 75% or the equation.

[RobS]

Very good and thanks for the replies.............I do understand that in determining stability bullet length is what we are actually looking and not weight. Weight correlates to length of a bullet in general of course, but as stated different designs of same weights do differ in length etc.

Anyway as I have looked into twist rate calculators, bullet length to twist rate calculation, and calculating the stability factor I too have noted what onesonek detailed in his last post.

So here we are in that it comes down to finding what "fits" the application by plugging in all the pieces together as Bass Ackward noted. The pursuit continues on gentlemen.

[Changeling]

Rob I know I didn't answer your specific question. I didn't because I don't know what bullet length would max out your caliber! There is more to it than that: Example: Lets say that you have a bullet of XX length and with a load that produces 1200 fps that it hits the target sideways at 50 yards
That same bullet loaded to 1300fps or more might shoot fine at 50 yd because velocity can offset the twist ratio "Somewhat" but should NOT be used unless you are shooting Bench rest type rifles/revolvers and FULLY understand the fine line you are walking between velocity and twist.

My expertise is with rifles! However from what I have seen in the last year I would venture a guess that for your "twist & velocity wish", the projectiles should be kept in the 260gr and down range, without ones designed with a longer than normal length.
As I said before shoot and see for yourself. If you can hit the target at 100 yd with out any "Yawing" on target entrance you will probably have an accurate bullet at that range! Because the above will tell you that the bullet was stabilized at that range.
However if in doubt of some particular bullet, give it a go, then you'll know.

[Ben]

Here are my thoughts :

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82864

[fredj338]

fredj338:

I'm sure the bullet runs well at 1100 fps in the BH as it has a 1:16" twist and I believe the bullet was designed around the thought of such twist rate. Do you think that with a 1:24" twist it would do better to go with a lighter/shorter bullet at 1100 fps to maximum 1200 fps.

I was really hoping some of the senior members might have a bit of info to share on this topic as well; Felix, 44man, Brett, Loyd among many others out there on the forum???? Where are you guys?
You can often overcome the stability issue w/ more vel. The 454 should easily allow you to achieve that. The proof will always be in the shooting. If you want some to try, I would be glad to send you a few to shoot. I normaly cast them from 50/50 ww/lead or ww aircooled, but seldom go beyond 1000fps. Drop me a PM if I can help/

[Changeling]

You do realize Rob is talking about a 1:24 twist don't you?

[RobS]

You can often overcome the stability issue w/ more vel. The 454 should easily allow you to achieve that. The proof will always be in the shooting. If you want some to try, I would be glad to send you a few to shoot. I normaly cast them from 50/50 ww/lead or ww aircooled, but seldom go beyond 1000fps. Drop me a PM if I can help/

Thanks for the offer I do appreciate your generosity. I already have a BRP 454-283-SWC/Keith which are very similar bullets. The BRP was the 45 2.1 redesign of the RCBS 45-270-SAA.