Garand test loads - Results

[sqlbullet]

I made it to the range on Saturday to try some new loads in my Garand. I had previously been shooting BobS Load (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=312730&postcount=15), and while plenty satisfied, I had several pounds of Varget and RL-15 on the shelf I purchased for an AR-15 I no longer own. So, loads test loads were created, and I am duly posting my results.

As a control I took along two clips of Greek HXP, and two clips of BobS Load (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=312730&postcount=15). My bullet is a Lee 200 gr sized .310, checked with Hornady gas checks and lubed with Felix lube.

The test loads were 32gr and 34 grains of RL-15 under .75 gr dacron, and the same weights of Varget under the same dacron. The bullets were seated to the crimp groove, and crimped hard in a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Primers were CCI large rifle.

All shots were taken at 50 yards, using the standard Garand sights. Shooting was from the bench, but the rifle was supported by me, not a rest or sandbags. The 5 shot groups were fired from a full 8-round clip. Between each shot, the group was checked with a 60X spotting scope, but no extra time was taken to allow the barrel to cool.

The targets were SR-1 200YD reduced for 100YD, with a 1" round orange sticker over the X to increase visibility. The sights were not adjusted, as shots were only to test function and group size.

The HXP turned in a 1.7" group, slightly oblong vertically, about 1.5" above point of aim.

The BobS Load (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=312730&postcount=15) rounds turned in a 1.5" group, oblong vertically about 5" below the point of aim.

The two RL-15 loads both turned in 2.5" + groups, one oblong vertically, the other horizontally. I had two short strokes in which empty brass did eject, but a fresh cartridge did not get fed. One short stroke with each charge weight. All shots were similarly about 5" below the point of aim.

The 32 grain Varget load turned in a 1.25" group, with three shots in a perfect triangle within .75". Function was flawless.

The 34 grain Varget load turned in a 1.75" group, slightly vertical. Function was likewise flawless. Both Varget loads were also about 5" below point of aim.

RL-15 is further down the burn rate chart than Varget, and may benefit from a higher charge. Since I have two pounds on hand, charges of 36 and 38 grains will be tested in the future.

None-the-less, Varget is definitely a darling in my gun. Next up is to have a mold altered to a plain base design. If Varget will still perform without leading against a plain base design, then I can break the $0.10/shot barrier shooting my Garand!

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I would be careful about reloading too slow of powders with the M1 Garand and other auto feeders. The design is dependent on certain port pressure to safely opperate the system. Too slow of powder raises that port presure putting excesive strain on the opperating rod... they will break.

[Nobade]

This weekend I shot a silhouette match with my M1, 40 rounds fired and no malfunctions. Boolit was the Lee 200, cast from water dropped wheelweights, gaschecked, lubed with 50/50. Powder was 34.0gr. IMR 4895. Shoots as good as I can see! Varget is a touch slower but very close, so we're doing about the same thing here.

[sqlbullet]

Good morning
I would be careful about reloading too slow of powders with the M1 Garand and other auto feeders. The design is dependent on certain port pressure to safely opperate the system. Too slow of powder raises that port presure putting excesive strain on the opperating rod... they will break.


I appreciate the concern and advice, but I have done my research. Lead bullets aren't copper, and the normal rules for guestimating port pressure don't apply.

The load with 4831 is well documented here by both BobS and BruceB. I imagine if Bruce is around he will drop in and offer his comments, which will start something like "Lead bullets aren't copper!" as he has in many other threads.

I am certain you are correct if I were loading at or near max pressure with 4831. However, at a load reduced by 20%, and lead bullets offer less resistance than jacketed.

I also have a schuster plug, though it is not installed. If I ever decide to work up some serious loads pushing those 200 grain bullets near max, the schuster will go in first.

[madsenshooter]

Just yesterday I was shooting some lead and jacketed bullets that were of the same weight. Loads were identical except for the bullets. The jacketed loads produced enough pressure to seal the case, the lead bullets did not. So, yes lead bullets produce less pressure. Avg velocity of the two strings were within 6fps of each other though.

[Bob S]

Well, in my own defense .... Varget wasn't around when I started using "my" load (circa 1968). I no longer shoot cast bullets in any of my M1's, but the load still is plenty accurate to 300 yards in my Springfields with "new" 4831.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[sqlbullet]

It is a great load too, Bob. Dead reliable cycling and easy on the brass as well as accurate. A friend that was with me took a few shots when I was done and had 4 of 8 touching at 50 yards. Not sure what kind of friend out shoots me with my own gun :-). I guess I should have him test all my loads.

I hope to get in a group by of some 4831 through a friend which will make these loads still the cheapest.

[NickSS]

Those Shuster gas plugs really work! I have on hand a large quantity of AA 3100 powder and I wanted to use it in my M1 so bought one of those plugs. I installed it and loaded up some rounds with 59 gr of 3100 and a 150 gr bullet. This is not a hot load as the powder is fairly slow burning but I anticipated that the port pressure would be higher hence the new gas plug. I started with the plug wide open and the rifle would not cycle. The by screwing the plug in half a turn at a time I first got it to eject but not pick up a round, then eject and pick up a round then eject the round to where I wanted them to land (right front). I then tried some M2 ball and it functioned the rifle but ejected the round to the right rear of the firing point. I left the gas plug in that position and Have fired a couple hundred rounds through it using the 3100 load which by the way shoots the same sized groups as my M 2 ball does.

[dualsport]

OK Bob, I gotta ask. Why did you stop shooting cbs in your Garand?

[Bob S]

OK Bob, I gotta ask. Why did you stop shooting cbs in your Garand?

Because I can afford good jacketed bullets now, and they work much, much better in the M1 (or Mk2-1). And I really, really wanted the little gold badge. I still shoot a lot of cast bullets in my manually-operated match rifles.

When I first started using cast bullets, I was a poverty-striken undergraduate student, but I worked at a garage and had an unlimited supply of wheel weights. A box of Sierra match bullets was almost 5 dollars, and buying them usually meant going without a meal, so I shot a lot of cast bullets in Springfields and my M1. When I was shooting the M1 as a Sharpshooter, 2 MOA groups with cast bullets at 100 - 200 yards were "OK" for the short lines, but to progress beyond SS, and earn the Distinguished badge, I needed far better accuracy and reliability out to 600 yards. I Distinguished back in the days when you had to shoot whatever ammunition they issued on the line at a leg match ... so using cast bullets was not going to be much help to me in the Service Rifle (M1).

When I got my Master classification (NRA), I did use that same load, but it was in a Springfield, not an M1; it would group a little over 1 MOA from that rifle out to 300 yards, very reliably. I used Sierra 168's for 600 and Sierra 190's for 1000.

Today you can shoot your handloads in "leg" matches, so if you wanted, you could shoot an M1 or M1A with cast bullets on the short lines ... but you'd be signing up for defeat. They just can't compete. For most leg matches, you need to score in the mid-upper 470's over the course to be in "leg" territory, and there are no "reduced range" leg matches, you have to shoot the full distance (200-300-600 yards). For informal plinking at beer cans (or watermelons!) they are fine; even for "semi-serious" NRA competition at very short ranges for shooters in the lower classifications, they are OK. But to progress beyond that with Service Rifle, you need a rifle/ammo/shooter combination that will shoot around 1 MOA reliably at 200, 300 and 600 yards. With a manually-operated rifle and cast bullets, you should be able to shoot Master class scores at very short (100) and short (200 yards) range ... our friend 35 Whelan seems to be doing very well in that line of business. :D

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[madsenshooter]

And 5 bucks was a real big meal back then, and I don't mean super-sized! After, all, back then just a nickel and dime would get: French fried potatoes, thick, thick shakes, and the greatest 15 cent hamburger yet! Yes it would at Burger Chef....Sorry Bob, it's my birthday! Hey, I was depending on you to be at the Vintage Match with your Krag to pull us to the top! Would've been a long pull for me! I had the rifle/ammo/combo, left the shooter somewhere else.

[BruceB]

Bob is absolutely correct. In competition, it is simply foolish to concede ANY advantage that might be obtained within the rules. Jacketed bullets are one of those advantages.

My long-standing fascination with cast bullets in gas-operated rifles has never been due to "need"; rather, it sprang from my desire to do something out of the ordinary, and to expand my knowledge of rifle types that I respect and enjoy. It's been very rewarding, but IF I WAS COMPETING I'd be slinging Matchkings or similar bullets just like the rest of the line.

Cast bullets offer new and wider areas for experimentation at low cost, and if hearing the muzzle blast turns the ol' crank, cast loads offer a LOT of fun at that low cost....sometimes with surprising accuracy.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Ever hear of the Wilk gas check?

The article is in this PDF; you'll need to scroll down to the 6th page:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl134partial.pdf

The basic idea is to use a gas check with the center punched out in the mold, right near where the boolit will first touch the throate. Without the extra support, spire points in particular will tend to get cocked sideways under higher pressure loads. Example:

http://i38.tinypic.com/v66smx.png

I have that very mold (Lyman #311413, 169gr), and the boolits don't shoot worth beans if you try to push 'em faster than around 1,600fps. They're really pretty accurate with 15gr IMR SR 4759, but slow.

I've been thinking of trying something similar; but perhaps using AWG-18 or AWG-20 pre-tinned copper bus wire instead of punching lots of holes in gas checks. It would be less expensive, and you could make a lot of "rings" in a big hurry by using a properly sized drill bit, brass rod, or perhaps a wooden dowel chucked in a drill as a mandrel to wrap the wire on, then separate the "rings" using a sharp razor.

[madsenshooter]

Although intriguing, I just can't see handling little bits of something and trying to put them into a hot mold. If I was going to go through all that trouble, I think I'd just buy some jacketed bullets and be done with it. I have Belding and Mull's version of the bullet you're trying to get to work, it even has a little more support forward of the crimp groove that'd make a good place for your wire, but I'll pass on the trouble and keep shooting it slow. It's the middle one in the pic below.

[sqlbullet]

My long-standing fascination with cast bullets in gas-operated rifles has never been due to "need"; rather, it sprang from my desire to do something out of the ordinary, and to expand my knowledge of rifle types that I respect and enjoy. It's been very rewarding, but IF I WAS COMPETING I'd be slinging Matchkings or similar bullets just like the rest of the line.

Cast bullets offer new and wider areas for experimentation at low cost, and if hearing the muzzle blast turns the ol' crank, cast loads offer a LOT of fun at that low cost....sometimes with surprising accuracy.

Right there with you. It is the satisfaction of knowing that I made it. I cast the bullet, I assembled the load, and it worked well.

I owe you and BobS a debt of gratitude that I can't express. You have blazed a trail, and showed what can be. I don't shoot well enough to ever push the envelope beyond what you guys are doing. But I can use your knowledge to extend my envelope a little day by day. (Well, every couple weeks as I still have 6 youngin's at home.)

It was really nice to see BobS respond to the sister of this post I made at the CMP forum. My thanks to you both!

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Although intriguing, I just can't see handling little bits of something and trying to put them into a hot mold.
That's the trick, isn't it? ;)

I was thinking of making a tool similar to those "pick-up fingers" things they sell in auto parts stores; three spring-loaded wires that pop out when you push the button
on the end, to make certain the Wilk check is at the right position and straight in the mold. Might be more of a pain in the keister than it's worth, but its' a possible way to get better accuracy out of higher velocities than you could otherwise get with spire point cast boolits.


If I was going to go through all that trouble, I think I'd just buy some jacketed bullets and be done with it.
Well, that's exactly what I've done in the past; I gave up a long time ago (1971) trying to push those 311413's any faster than 15g SR 4759 would push them in my .30-06. What I'm saying though, if one DID want to push cast spire points faster, this technique could open new horizons. The BC of these type rounds is just too much better than bore riders to forget about.


I have Belding and Mull's version of the bullet you're trying to get to work, it even has a little more support forward of the crimp groove that'd make a good place for your wire, but I'll pass on the trouble and keep shooting it slow. It's the middle one in the pic below.

Yep, very similar. How's accuracy with it, and at what fps does the accuracy start falling off?

[leadman]

In my home town of Grand Rapids, Michigan at one time very long ago they made wire wrapped cast bullets. Read an article in an old gun magazine, probably from the 30s'or 40s.

I think if one had a custom mold made similar to a paper patch mold, but a step near the nose to keep the wire from going in any further and also a shank for a gas check this might be a good design.

[dualsport]

Thanks for the explanation Bob. I'm just nosy I guess. You guys have saved me a lot of time not having to learn everything the hard way. I do like experimenting with cbs in my Garand, but I have to agree it's not realistic to expect too much there. A lot of us have 'fallen' for that sexy 314, it looks so good loaded. Tried the Wilke check idea too, not productive, burnt fingers. My direction with the 314 is to try the hardest alloy I can make, a slow powder like 4831, and dacron. Maybe it's not hopeless. The fallback plan is 311334, as far as messing with pointy boolits goes.