New 1874 Sharps advice???

[saz]

I want a 1874 sharps- period. I have been knocking the idea around for quite a while now until I got a chance to shoot one at some sillouettes out to 600 yds and it is all over but the empty checkbook. WHAT A GAS! It was a shiloh in 45-110 and I believe he was loading the lyman postell boolit over swiss 1 1/2. I am impressed to say the least.

Now my question is about the different manufacturers out there, as I am sure there is junk floating around. Bottom line, I cannot afford a Shiloh. I would like to keep my options open for competing in sillouhette or long range in the future if I wanted to. So, I am thinking at least a 30" barrel and either 45-70 or 45-90. That 45-110 about made me pay an unscheduled visit to my dentist to tighten up some molars for me. I couldnt imagine enjoying running 60-100rds a day through that rifle. The gun will have to stay under 12lbs (for NRA rules, right?) to keep options open.

There is a 45-70 uberti in town with half round half octagon 32" barrel on sale at the local sportsmans wharehouse, and the fit and finish seems really good. Also I know there are a lot of pedersoli's out there and I have owned a couple of pedersoli muzzleloaders and they are high quality pieces. Honestly I am prepared to move a couple of guns to own a 1874, and just want a little advice on what direction to go. I am leaning toward the 45-70 as brass and dies are just more affordable and readily available. Also the preferred rifling is around 1:18 correct? Thoughts???

[NickSS]

I have a Uberti that actually was made by perdersoli. They are a quality rifle and shoot very competitively with other makes. 1 in 18 twist works well and most shooters of long range prefer that twist rate today. However, I have a couple of rifles with 1 in 20 twist that also shoot as good as I can make them. I have 1874 Sharps rifles made by Uberti (Pedersoli), Shiloh, Pedersoli, and C Sharps. The Shiloh and C Sharps are the top of the line products but the Pedersoli (Uberti) are not far behind. I would opt for the 45-70 as it is really easy to get started in the game and it is also the cheapest to feed. Other makers such as Armi Sport and Padretti make 1874 but they are of lower quality than the Pedersoli products.

A couple of things to consider when selecting your rifle. A pistol grip helps but is not essential. A shotgun butt plate is preferred as it distributes recoil better. I have two 1874 with the militaty butt. It works well for a hunting rifle and at short range but the comb is too low for long range. If you get a rifle fitted with this butt you will at some point want to make or buy a strap on pad that raises the comb some for those longer ranges otherwise you will not have a good cheak weld and your scores will suffer if you are anything like me.

[Don McDowell]

Might want to stop and think about things a moment before you start on that "I can't afford a..... " thing.
Unless you're buying a used Italian the cost is going to be within spitting distance of a Big Timber built gun, so save a bit longer and help support a fellow American. If the gun is used there will/should be a pretty big gap between the Italian and the Big Timber gun.
If you're not in a huge hurry to get the rifle then place your order with Shiloh, give them the 250$ deposit, then start saving. You'll have another year to either store the cash in your savings account , or send Shiloh a chunk of change as you get it. Then when your rifle is in the final stages the final payment will have either been made or won't be such a hit on the checkbook.
There's also been some fairly good deals on Gunbroker as of late.

[longranger]

I could not agree more with Mr. McDowell,

I did exactly what he is indicating.I looked at the least expensive # 3 Shiloh,plain wood,added a shotgun butt plate(should have gotten the hard rubber $80.00 less.32" half round/half Oct. no additional charge,just a bit over $1700.00 before tax and shipping.It is by far my most favorite rifle I own.The "Quigly" by Pedersoli approaches this price and then some.No comparison for the money spent which is the much better rifle,No body builds a better 1874 Sharps than Shiloh and prices are very favorable when you consider the outstanding quality.Nobody is taking less than they paid for their used Shiloh rifles,not so with Pedersoli.
I think If you want a very collectable Shiloh order as plain jane rifle in the configuration of your choice,plain wood,standard case color reciever.Shiloh makes way less of this type of rifle than the dolled up high dollar options(I own 1)Their quality has never been better than it is today that says alot about their product.
I cannot stress the point that a Shiloh rifle is worth,placing a deposit and making reasonable payments untill it is built and assembling all of the parts and pieces that will be needed to shoot.I just feel better about my money going to Big Timber MT instead of Europe.

[SharpsShooter]

Stay away from I.A.B. Taylor's and Chappia as they are pretty much garbage. The Pedersoli's generally are well made with good barrels. Don's point about the price of new is spot on. Cost of a basic, no frills 1874 in 45-70 will run..

$1800 Shiloh
$1895 C. Sharps
$1350 Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Basic Hunter Rifle .45-70


In all fairness, Pedersoli does offer a 1874 Sharps "Hunter" .45-70 for $995 that would get your start off to the right direction, but it will not be finished as well


SS

[cajun shooter]

If you watch Gun Broker you can find the Pedersoli's for sale all the time. If you go to the site you will see all the different models they offer. Pedersoli's good rifles will shoot with the C Sharps and Shiloh's. I own a Pedersoli Competition model that weighs 13 lbs and it is a fine rifle. If you are bent on having one then what Don said is correct. But no one knows your money as you do and in these times it is hard for a lot of people including myself. I was ready to order my Shiloh when it hit our business in Sept. of 07 and we have yet to recover. The pedersoli that I bought was $1600 but selling for $1000. I have never regretted the buy. You appear young in your avatar and maybe you can buy that Pedersoli now. That will allow you to get your feet wet for the day you call Shiloh.

[Freightman]

It takes a year or more to get a Shiloh figure out what the payments after the down payment and pay for it by the month. You will like the Shiloh, I have one, never shot an Italian one or C. Sharps so I can't say how they are.

[montana_charlie]

Before you say you can't afford a particular brand, think about what you indend to do with the rifle.

If you plan on using it in competition, you will probably want a shotgun butt. That option is available on almost any Shiloh rifle at no extra cost...even the 'cheap' ones.
To get a Pedersoli with a shotgun butt, you will have to be choosy about the model you pick...and that might kick up the price.

But to say that a Shiloh is only a little more expensive than a Pedersoli is a question open to interpretation by your wallet.

The Shiloh Sporter #3 with standard everything is a $2000 gun when you only add the never-mentioned excise tax. The standard finish on the wood is quite 'non-reflective' (read 'dull') and the grain is unfilled.

The Pedersoli Billy Dixon is the same configuration as a Sporter #3. As a model which falls in Pedersoli's $2000 price range, it has better than standard wood with better than standard finish. The grain is properly filled, and there is a nice 'glow' to the surface without being glassy.

Dropping to the standard finish on standard wood takes you to what Pedersoli calls the 'Sporting Standard' model. It is the same configuration as the Billy Dixon and the Sporter #3, but it's available as an $1100 gun. That's a $900 difference while comparing apples to apples.
All of the metal is identical to the Billy Dixon (absent the nose cap), but the wood is plainer and the finish is more utilitarian.

If you happen to need the same rifle with a shotgun butt...there is the Silhouette Standard.
It's found between $1100 and $1400...depending on where you find it.

These are not made up numbers used to fudge the comparison between rifles from the two makers. They are based on current webpages, and they don't make the 'apple versus orange' comparison between a Pedersoli Quigley with a Shiloh Business Rifle just to lend credence to the argument.
If you want to see the 'apple' from Shiloh with corresponds with a Pedersoli Quigley, the difference is a thousand dollars...before you count that excise tax.

CM

[d garfield]

My Quigley sharps say Taylor arms, made by Pederisole.

[EDK]

I ordered a SHILOH in October '03...gun flunked inspection in NOV/DEC '04...minor stock crack...and delivered PERFECT in FEB '05. SHILOH absorbed $400 wood upgrade, pewter fore end tip and AA finish and didn't even mention it.

Summer 09 at Quigley, SHILOH installed a new breech block FREE...had a burr around the firing pin hole on the old one...I been shooting it some.

45/70 is a better choice because of component availability. I have a 50/90 because "all my life when they said SHARPS, I thought BIG 50." My next gun will be an identical 45/70, but I treasure the 50.

Order the SHILOH and start saving money. Get it the way you want and you won't have any regrets. C. SHARPS are pretty good, but they need to work on their public relations. The "italians" can be pretty good, but "second place is the first loser." Horror stories abound with some makes.

:Fire::castmine::redneck:

[GregT]

Hello! I've been lurking around here for a long time and finally joined officially yesterday, and what do I find but a discussion about one of my favorite rifles! I was amazed to find that Shiloh Sharps rifles are under $2000! I assumed one could not be touched for anywhere near this amount! Of course, I am 62 at this point and some may say that time could be a problem...
You will not regret buying a Pedersoli Sharps 1874. I have one by them in a .45/70 silhouette rifle. A simply beautiful rifle. And it shoots better than I can. I put a Pedersoli vernier tang sight on it (a nice one with lots of adjustment dials) and a Pedersoli globe tang front sight with a spirit level. I am also a member of Chas Hamilton's Black Powder Cartridge List and ran into Pedersoli U.S. factory rep Dick Trenk there. Sadly, Dick passed away this summer. He guided me in so far as Pedersoli products were concerned and I have yet to regret the purchase. I bought a Shiloh Model 1863 Carbine in the mid-70's when they started production and that little carbine is built exactly as the original was (well, almost, as the gas seal system is a bit different). That carbine now carries an original Lawrence Patent complete lock on it! Dropped right in place. That pretty well tested the interchangability factor. The quality of the Shiloh is higher. The quality of the Pedersoli is right up there also. I could not afford a Shiloh 1874. Still can't. As far as anyone being a loser at a rifle match due to using a Pedersoli, I really dought that! I love my Pedersoli. And that little 1863 Shiloh carbine will put three .50 caliber bullets touching each other at 25 yards (they no longer make the .50 in that model). I also have a Chiappa Model 1870 Sharps "conversion" carbine in caliber .50/70 . Beautiful metal work, case hardening colors and wood to metal is superb. Shoots heavy black powder loads as long as you can take the kick. The trick to shooting any well made '74 Sharps is to properly load the cartridge for it and keep the powder fouling soft using a blowtube as you shoot it. Any company can make a lemon. The replicas I have obtained from Pedersoli and Chiappa so har have been very well made and excellent shooters. Just my input on this as a satisfied shooter of them.
GregT

[saz]

Thanks for all the replies guys! And yes I am only 33 years old, but I am on a single military income so until my son is in school full time, my wife isnt working so "extra" cash is a little thin with our camping addiction in full swing. I have been looking around and one thing that has cought my eye is the Pedersoli hunter- it has a 30" barrel, pistol grip, shotgun butt and what looked like not too bad of wood (I am a sucker for nice wood) selling out of cabelas for $999.00. Just wondering if they are the same quality as the rest they put out and what makes them sell it that much cheaper. Also are the NY made shilo's good quality also? I have found a few around and are still commanding a bit of $. I am really having fun just researching them and figuring all this stuff out and looking for one. I need time to sell a few other things first anyways!

[saz]

Also, after looking at a bunch of different forums, I seem to get very mixed opinions over the 45-70 vs 45-90. Now my opinion is that IF down the road I decided to get into long range shooting the 45-90 would be the more versitile choice. Now the friction seems to be that some people seem to think that there is a longer learning curve with the 90 than the 70..... That seems a little odd to me as one is a little longer and has more case capacity, i.e. if you are seating the bullet correctly and have the correct load density, one shouldnt be any more difficult to load for, right? Unless I am completely missing something.

[Don McDowell]

The 90 just flat kicks more than the 70, takes a good bit of trigger time to get used to it, and alot of folks load it down to be able to handle it.
Personally I don't think the 70 gives up much of anything to the bigger cartridges even at 1000 yds.
You can stoke a 70 with 3f and be breathing hot on the heels of the long cases, if you want to put up with the recoil, with only 30 fps or less between a 530 gr bullet out of a 70 and a 110 at 1000 yds, I'm wondering what's the point in the more expensive cases?
Strictly hunting use the longer cases have a decided edge.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I will drop my 2 cents worth, and not trying to take anything from Don, whom I consider a good friend, But there is more then 30 Fps vrs the 70 with FFFg and the 45-110 with FG. I run about 1385 to 1400 fps. A 45-70 with FFFg will get you 1250 to 1265 Fps TOPS. However Recoil is more much more with a 110, and it does take getting used too. Recoil with a FFFG 70 load is on par with most 90 loads. I have never seen in 16 years of National Level competition a FFFg 70 load break 1300 Fps. However 110 loads can and will exceed 1400 Fps with aplomb. Most long range shooters I know like to be moving along at 1285 to 1330 at least with their bullet and respective loads.

The 70 does give up in my opinion, due to having to run FFFg it burns hotter and you can have Fouling issues. I know a few folks that do well with the 70 in long range, however its few and far between wins, and if conditions are tough, forget it, the 90 or the 110 will flat kick it's butt at 1000 yards, fishtailing 2-10 winds will eat the slower bullet ALIVE.

A national Champion 45-70 shooter this past year I was pulling his target at Phoenix, his bullets showed visable tipping even at 800 yards. He shot well at 8 and 900 however in heavy winds on the last day his 1000 yard scores were in the tank and bullets were showing not keyholes but Egg shaped holes in the target at 1000 yards.

Dast Lunger
KW

[Don McDowell]

Kenny, I was talking about when those bullets cross the 1k line. Ballistics table after ballistics table suggest the velocity difference to be the 30 fps or less. Need someone with big chronog screens to do an actual reading sometime.
I think the biggest problem folks have with bullets at the 1 k line with the 45-70 is running bullets to heavy.
See ya thursday.

[saz]

I have been shooting and hunting with muzzleloaders for most of my life now, and I know the difference between 2F 3F, substitutes etc.... What is the difference between the standard GOEX and the cartridge? It looks like a 1 1/2 granulation, is that it?

Also what makes the swiss powder demand so much more money? Is is more uniform or burn hotter? I am in AK so maybe that has something to do with it. I can get GOEX for $20/lb but swiss is about $35.

Also has anyone used any of the substitutes like pyrodex or 777 or is that kind of "taboo"? I use 777 in 2 of my inlines with WONDERFUL results. If real black gave me better groups I would use it with those guns but 777 gives me better accuracy with heavy conicals.

[montana_charlie]

saz,
Did you click on the wrong forum?
The muzzleloader guys gather here... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16
CM

[saz]

saz,
Did you click on the wrong forum?
The muzzleloader guys gather here... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16
CM

MC,
I was speaking in reference to cartridge rifles and using the substitutes in them.

[Don McDowell]

I have been shooting and hunting with muzzleloaders for most of my life now, and I know the difference between 2F 3F, substitutes etc.... What is the difference between the standard GOEX and the cartridge? It looks like a 1 1/2 granulation, is that it?

Also what makes the swiss powder demand so much more money? Is is more uniform or burn hotter? I am in AK so maybe that has something to do with it. I can get GOEX for $20/lb but swiss is about $35.

Also has anyone used any of the substitutes like pyrodex or 777 or is that kind of "taboo"? I use 777 in 2 of my inlines with WONDERFUL results. If real black gave me better groups I would use it with those guns but 777 gives me better accuracy with heavy conicals.

Cartridge powder is a bit more refined than regular 2f, but not as much as express. It's a very accurate powder in many cartridges, but the velocity will fall a bit short of the Express.
I've not noticed it barely worth the expense to buy Express and after trying some Swiss have decided it to be greatly overrated. I do like the Schuetzen powder tho, but the fly in the ointment there is the finer grain sizes. Schuetzen 2f is similar sized to Goex 3f and gives similar velocities.
Have messed with some of the subs, things like app & 777 put out a lot more smoke than real bp, and I've yet to get anything resembling the accuracy from the subs that real black gives.

[NickSS]

I have used GOEX plain FFG and FG as well as cartridge grade. I have yet to buy any express but I have also shot Elephat brand FFG and FFFG, Shutzen FFG and Swiss 1.5. I also have used until it was used up some Curtis and Harvey FFG and Pyrodex P and RS in BPCR for one thing or another. Interestingly I have gotten excellent results from all of them in the area of 1 to 1.5 MOA with some tinkering. I will say that at longer ranges like 800, 900 and 1000 yards I like a bigger cartridge than 45-70. I have competed with a 45-70 at those ranges but if I were to do nore of it I would definatetely get either a 45-90 or a 45-100 chambering. However, I am not likely to do that type of competition in the future so I stick with the 45-70. I have also found that a bullet of around 500 gr works very well in the 45-70. I have shot heavier bullets but the one time I did shoot extream long range (1200 yards) I used a 500 gr government bullet over 67 gr of FFG GOEX. I managed to come in third in that match though that was when my eyes still worked well. By the way the guy who won that match was shooting a Muzzle loading Parker Hale Volunteer rifle with a 480 gr bullet and `30 gr of FFG Goex. He only dropped 1 point and only missed the X ring twice. I am still in awe nearly 20 years after the fact.

[saz]

"By the way the guy who won that match was shooting a Muzzle loading Parker Hale Volunteer rifle with a 480 gr bullet and `30 gr of FFG Goex. He only dropped 1 point and only missed the X ring twice. I am still in awe nearly 20 years after the fact."

WOW!!!

[mustanggt]

Saz, I have a 45-70 in an 1874 C. Sharps Arms. It has a #1 heavy barrel, shotgun checkered butt plate, extra fancy wood, pewter forend tip, Mid range Soule sites, globe spirit level front sight. I love that gun. The case coloring is beautiful. I've seen some on those Italian jobs and they aren't as good in my opinion. I looked around for awhile and looked at many kinds. I touched and smelled them. I finally made my decision last year to go with C Sharps because I saw two guys at the range who had many of them and I got to look at them and shoot them and one of the guys has become a good friend who's taught me alot about the game. As far as my buying experience with C Sharps it was excellent. John couldn't have been nicer. He even showed me a couple of fishing holes for the wife and I to flyfish while we drove 600 miles on two different trips to pick up the 74 and a more plain Jane 75 model. In July they were all on vacation for a week which was the time we were coming to get the 74 so Joe came in just so I could pick up my rifle. That is good customer service. I would go the extra mile and get the better gun. I am old enough to figure out that I won't be happy unless I spend the extra $$$ to get good quality stuff. I've spent enough on cheap stuff over the years that I could have gotten the better quality item and paid just once.

[Gellot Wilde]

Have any of you guys got either of the Big Timber rifles that you've had the antique finish done on?

[Yellowhouse]

Watch Gunbroker like Don said....also Cabelas (just google 'Cabelas Shiloh"). There have been some really good buys on Shiloh and C. Sharps the last 6 months and I mean real good ones.

[cajun shooter]

As far as the 45-70 V 45-90 V 45-110 and so on all he has to do is ream the 45-70. You can shoot for the period it takes to learn all the little tricks and then step up with the same rifle that got him there. For competition he could go with the Dan Theodore Pedersoli reamer for his bullet design.

[montana_charlie]

For competition he could go with the Dan Theodore Pedersoli reamer for his bullet design.
What's that?
CM

[cajun shooter]

MC, John BOY used it on his rifle. The pedersoli rifles are made with more free bore . The bullet design from what I understand is the results of Theodore, Jones ,Trent. It is made by Paul Jones in mold form. Go to his site and look at page 2 of the rifle bullets. It is the last bullet shown. It is my understanding that only 2 people have the reamer to do it with. As I said John Boy could go further with the info. Take Care In 45-70 I load the Saeco 725 bullet.

[pls1911]

I respect our domestic builders whose products are second to none.
However, I do have 3 Sharps 74's and 2 Rollingblocks of Pedersoli manufacture, all 45-70s.
All are sweet, with nice fit, finish and wood quality.
All shoot very well indeed.
Get 'em used, as many buyers never shoot'em!!

[montana_charlie]

The bullet design from what I understand is the results of Theodore, Jones ,Trent. It is made by Paul Jones in mold form.
Ahh! I see what you mean...but you have it wrong.

The U.S. representative for Pedersoli, the late Dick Trenk, had a desire to get a bullet designed specifically for the Pedersoli throat.
The parent company bore the cost of the project and (the late) Dr. Dick Gunn provided the expertise. Trenk oversaw the project and did some range testing of prototypes.

Once a suitable design had been devised, Victory Molds was hired to produce a number of moulds which were then 'lent out' to a succession of shooters who would use the design in their rifles.
The 'loaner mould' program was shepherded to conclusion by Dick Trenk, and the bullet was declared a successful one. Since the design is in the public domain, any machinist may produce moulds for it without violating any proprietary rights.

After about a year, Victory Moulds closed down and Paul Jones eventually came to offer the design as one of his stock items.

Jones calls it the 'Pedersoli Throat'.
But, it's true designation is the '.460 550 Pedersoli/Gunn/Trenk' bullet. It is spec'd to have a .460" diameter and weigh 550 grains in 20:1 alloy.
Most of us refer to it as the "PGT'' in honor of those people who actually were involved in it's creation.

http://bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_gunn_trenk_bullet.htm

CM

[Don McDowell]

And whats even more interesting than all that is, that noone has used a Pedersoli rifle and the pgt bullet to win a national shoot......Not even real sure there's been a top 10 showing...

[saz]

need to learn to read charlie. that honcho status should mean that you read what is written and answer accordingly. the questions stand and id like to see the answer as well. im a newbeee to this but i also have some little bit of experience elswhere which simply means that i dont lay all my eggs in one basket so if i/we try to compare this new vise to something that is known then whats the harm?

also saz...id like to ask you if there are stores down there that actually carrie the real black as there is none i can find in fairbanks. might neet to make a run to anckortown for a few lbs of the real stuff for a change.

thanks fellas.

Ted

Ted,
I dont know how I missed your post, sorry. The only place in anchorage that carries real black is Great Northern Guns. They usually have all the grades of Goex, but will order Swiss if you need to but it is expensive. Give them a call.

[martinibelgian]

Don,
I know you like to badmouth the Pedersoli stuff - but look international, their rifles do hold a lot of world records, even if most of them for ML rifles. Those rifles can and will shoot - and I'm pretty sure that if you put one into the hands of 1 of the top shots, those 1st places would follow.
And no, I don't own or shoot any Pedersoli rifle, and they don't pay me to make publicity for them. I actually don't care a lot for their rifles - but also don't see much reason to badmouth their products. You want a win? In 2006, at the Cape Town world championships, A Brit shooting a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 ended 1st at the 900m distance, against stiff international (including US) competition. Of course, that's only an international shoot.... Bottom line? Many, mabe most rifles will do it - but it's the shooter/reloader that makes the difference.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Matrinbelgian,

Don however is right, this well thought out and designed bullet has yet to really show in the winners circle.:???::???: Pedersoli rifles do shoot well, one of the very best shooting 45-90's I have ever shot was a Bodine Roller owned by my friend Kenny Durham.:) its a tac driver. He was not using the PGT Bullet although. I do think this is an excellent bullet and if it were not, Paul Jones would not cut a mould for it. His opinion of the bullet is not an endorsement, in otherwords, it is not a magic bullet.[smilie=1:

the 45-70 Pedersoli win at 900 meters good deal, good for him, Was this with the PGT Bullet? In another light, I have a Dozen Gold Medals from The National NRA Champion ships, Each a indivual win at 800 yards alone. Done with Iron (MVA) Sights and Scope (MVA). 5-6 golds just for the 1000 yard line also. I do not recall at the moment how many at 900 but it is only a couple. A great big one that says National Champion on it also, and 2, 5@200 Wins. Many regional, wins placings, on and on. I have done this with a Mono Groove Grease Groove bullet and with Paper Patch. All the above done with a Shiloh LR Express in 45-110, a round famed for its lack of accuracy.[smilie=1:[smilie=1: Recently at Alliance Neb I was Second in scope Class. This was shooting 2 different rifles though.

All the above also proves your point, it's the Shooter and the loads, however you have to have the finest in rifles-barrels to deliver the shot, and sights to also make the corrections that make the X's and Tens.

Now in a final thought, I have a great friend who owns a Pedersoli rifle that he has had for years, it shoots ok, however he must mine lead out of the worst looking barrel we have ever seen with a bore scope straight from the Pedersoli factory, after every single relay to maintain some sembelance of accuracy.

Where it a Shiloh he would of been able to send it back and had it rebarreled and no been fighting a losing battle for the past 5-6 years.

Dont get me wrong I have a Shiloh at the Factory that is getting rebarreled right now.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Don,
I know you like to badmouth the Pedersoli stuff - but look international, their rifles do hold a lot of world records, even if most of them for ML rifles. Those rifles can and will shoot - and I'm pretty sure that if you put one into the hands of 1 of the top shots, those 1st places would follow.
And no, I don't own or shoot any Pedersoli rifle, and they don't pay me to make publicity for them. I actually don't care a lot for their rifles - but also don't see much reason to badmouth their products. You want a win? In 2006, at the Cape Town world championships, A Brit shooting a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 ended 1st at the 900m distance, against stiff international (including US) competition. Of course, that's only an international shoot.... Bottom line? Many, mabe most rifles will do it - but it's the shooter/reloader that makes the difference.

Gert NOT bad mouthing the Pedersoli stuff. Simply pointing out that here in the USA there are much better options for not much more money.
Dennis Wiley shot his way onto the US Creedmoor team with a pedersoli, and razzledazzled the hell out of em in south Africa until he got sick. (didn't use the ptg bullet)
Bryan Youngberg shot some tremendous scores with his rechambered pedersoli at Kenny's Creedmoor match in 05 ( wasn't shooting the ptg bullet)
Wendy Sage set some Raton womens records at Raton shooting a Pedersoli (didn't use the ptg)

Once again for the weak minded. NOT BASHING PEDERSOLI PRODUCTS AT ALL.:groner:
Simply stating that with careful price comparison, a Shiloh or C Sharps can be had for not much more money. Thereby using hard earned AMERICAN dollars to help support hard working AMERICAN craftsmen. And that a bullet that was rolled out with much fanfare and bluster, hasn't really accomplished as much as a lowly ol Lyman Ideal design that's been around for 100 years or so now..... and from a mould that costs a good bit less than the nearest available ptg mould.[smilie=b:

And just to aleviate anymore of this bullspit. I do own and occasionally shoot an Italian rifle that can and will shoot with a BigTimber built gun.... IF the dang thing doesn't fall apart first... and then it's two weeks minimum hours of fitting to get the broken part, and ,,,,,oh well.......:killingpc

[EDG]

Your same old story is repeated after your disclaimer.
There is no way you can buy a Shiloh or C Sharps for what you pay for a used Pedersoli. Few BPCRs are shot much by the original owners. I don't see any advantage for buying a new rifle and waiting a long time for it. Of course if you want a real bargain buy one of the Miroku made Highwalls.

[Don McDowell]

Your same old story is repeated after your disclaimer.
There is no way you can buy a Shiloh or C Sharps for what you pay for a used Pedersoli. Few BPCRs are shot much by the original owners. I don't see any advantage for buying a new rifle and waiting a long time for it. Of course if you want a real bargain buy one of the Miroku made Highwalls.

Very true you can't buy a used Big Timber gun for what you'ld pay for a used Italian. (seems there might be something going on there other than a major conspiracy :roll:)
When you compare new prices the original price difference isn't all that great.
Waiting? Well yah you'll have to wait awhile for a Shiloh if they don't have anything on the rack you want, or if Goodman doesn't have one on hand that will suit....Or if you don't find one on one of the gun selling sites that someone got and hasn't fired...(ps have a shiloh on order, should be done about this time next year)
C Sharps, the last one I got from them was 30 days from the day I ordered it until the day I was going thru the barrel breakin.... Course they have an available list of a fairly good selection of rifles ready to ship....
Real Bargains? Well there's a couple , the C Sharps 1875, and the Winchester Miroku built bpcr's. Either is capable of taking a shooter from the box to the firing line and being competitive and will come in at or below a Pedersoli sharps prices.
Yup, I always say pretty much the same thing. IT's called something I've learned from first hand experience.
I'm not an internet expert, I don't even play one on the internet.
BUT I DO SPEAK FROM 40 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN THIS GAME.
How about you EDG? What's your story?

[martinibelgian]

Kenny,
I'm pretty sure that if someone put a Pedersoli in your hands and you'd go through the steps of making it perform, you'd still remain in the winner's list. Does that mean they only have 1st-rate stuff? of course not. Then again, I've already met people who had a 'lemon' Shiloh too... Maybe fewer and further in between, but...
Still, the fact remains that you can get a pretty decent rifle a a pretty good price right now. The bullet? a detail, if the barrel isn't good, no bullet will perform. If you have a good barrel, almost any correctly-dimensioned bullet will shoot well. Then it is up to the shooter to finetune in order to find the best combination. Lots of time and effort!
FWIW, here in Europe you can almost double the Shiloh prices you have to pay... Give a mediocre shooter the best material, that won't make him a top performer. Give a good shooter a halfway decent rifle, and he'll still shoot good scores and beat most of the competition. This is a shooter's game, not an equipment game!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

"If you have a good barrel, almost any correctly-dimensioned bullet will shoot well."

I can shoot holes in that statment all day long.
Lastly with current prices Pedersoli's are no bargin compairing new to new at this time.

And I would much rather See American Gun company, their workers maintain gainful employment then watch Italian gun makers who do not have to pay the same taxes, cut out and put our Gunmakers out of business with a "cheaper Product"

Try getting a rebarrel on your pedersoli around this country aint Happening, I already tried to make that point clear you must of missed it in my last post.

Fact remains, the bullet mentioned and rifles do not shoot the best scores hell they can not even place in their own match at Raton, the 5@200.. Those are Facts and true statments I posted so far I have got conjecture in yours.

The Lunger
KW

Keep it American and Keep Americans Employed.

[martinibelgian]

KW,

I don't mind you plugging US-made products, but better get your facts straight. BTW, when talking about getting a rebarrel? Try getting a rebarrel on a Shiloh in Europe... as you say, it ain't happening either.

Prices? A quick check on the 'net shows following: Cheapest 1874 PG Shiloh I can find is 1902,- (LRE), a C. Sharps for 1895,- (no PG though, costs 80,-). Buffalo Arms sells a 1874 PG Ped for 1403,- Difference of 500 might just be pretty serious if you're on a budget (how about an MVA tang sight for that price?). Will the Shiloh be better? It most probably will be - it damn well should be for 500 more...

Will the Italian rifle have less of a fit and finish? Yes, almost certainly. Will it shoot? Well, I've seen Peds beat Shilohs here in Europe. And win international competitions. And I've seen it the other way too. Hell, I've even seen a Uberti Hiwall shoot a perfect score and leave all others behind - including Shilohs and Pedersoli's (and me). Those are also facts and true statements. Fact is, you won't find all that many Shilohs in the winner's circle here (then again, there aren't that many around).

And as to taxes? Well, if you only look at your side of the pond, that might be - and I for sure wouldn't know, so I will refrain from making such absolute statements. Mind you, Italy taxes their gunmakers too... And I do believe most European firearms manufacturers will be singing that very same song about US imports when talking about modern rifles.

Do I have a Pedersoli? No. Do I want one? again, no. Have I seen 'lemons' from Pedersoli? yes, I've seen some. But lots of good ones too. Does that mean Pedersoli rifles are bad? most certainly not.

Also, in ML, which rifles get most medals in international competition - just check the MLAIC laureates list. Exactly...

I'll leave it at that.

[mustanggt]

Saz, All of this personal stuff in this thread aside, have you had your questions answered??? I am 100% in the camp of buy American and support our craftsmen here. I have seen the Big Timber rifles and Pedersoli rifles. No question the BT ones are far and above the highest quality. I thought of buying the Italian one but just couldn't get past the non American label. I knew that I wouldn't be happy if I didn't get a BT one. I haven't regretted it since. I have not heard any bad experiences with Shiloh. C. Sharps treated me very well and their carftsmanship is first rate. I would say the only difference would be that Shiloh takes alot longer. That would be it. You won't find used ones alot cheaper because they are such fine rifles they hold their value very well. Unless you have specific options in mind you could probably get one off the rack there. You can always upgrad sights later etc. I live 600 miles from Big Timber and my wife and I made a nice road trip out of it. We flyfished and hiked around and had a blast. If you can make it stay at the Mission Creek Bed and Breakfast between Livingston and Big Timber. Eat at the Grand Hotel, it is the best food in those parts.

[EDG]

>>>BUT I DO SPEAK FROM 40 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN THIS GAME.<<<

I have been shooting 45-70s since 1972. I have been working in manufacturing and engineering 42 years.
You can define anything in quality absolutes. That may not be the best value in terms of fun per dollar.
I am also sure I can have a better 1874 built than anything produced in Big Timber. All it takes is money. After that then what? You will then not have the so called best Sharps. What will you use as basis as the best. Cheering for the home team?

[Don McDowell]

>>>BUT I DO SPEAK FROM 40 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN THIS GAME.<<<

I have been shooting 45-70s since 1972. I have been working in manufacturing and engineering 42 years.
You can define anything in quality absolutes. That may not be the best value in terms of fun per dollar.
I am also sure I can have a better 1874 built than anything produced in Big Timber. All it takes is money. After that then what? You will then not have the so called best Sharps. What will you use as basis as the best. Cheering for the home team?

:holysheep:groner:

[saz]

I completely understand everyone's opinions and respect them just the same. This reminds me of the same arguement I had with a friend of mine between 2 of my shotguns- I told him that my favorite side-by-side in my safe was a Stevens model 5100 in 20ga, and he was utterly offended since I have a rather nice 21 winchester field grade in 12ga. I just like that little stevens, I dont know why. Maybe cause I know that it isnt as irreplaceable as the 21 or something- not that a fine pedersoli sharps isnt irreplaceable.

Now I am on one side I am all for supporting the american working man. I have been in the army for 15 years, and one thing that I AM is PATRIOTIC! On the other hand I am supporting my family on a single income until my son is at least in kindergarten, then my wife will go back to school and finish her masters etc........ Bottom line is my money is tight, and will be for a few more years. So I have been saving for a while and I need to make it go as far as I can.

Now I will tell you that I have bought a Pedersoli from a very nice gentleman who has almost bent over backwards in every way to help me out on the deal, to include holding on to it for a little bit until I raised the last bit of money. One more thing that helped me with the Italian vs BT gun, is that I sold a VERY nice Pedersoli muzzleloader to make money and room for the new (to me) pedersoli sharps. So out with one Italian, in with one. Seems fair to me- HAHAHA! I was looking for a used Shiloh for a long time, but nothing fit my price range or it wasnt what I wanted. And I knew what I wanted. High comb stock, pistol grip, shotgun style but plate, minimum 30" barrel and decent wood. This one has it all.

Now this will be my "beginner rifle" that I will probably cut my teeth learning on. Being an artilleryman by trade I LOVE hurling large projectiles at unreasonable distances. :smile::smile::smile::smile: I am aboslutely ecstatic to start my new hobby, and I am SURE that I will be on here quit a bit looking for advice. Thanks to everyone on here for all the advice and opinions!

Shoot straight-
Saz

[Don McDowell]

Well Saz good luck and have fun with the new purchase.
Be warned tho you're expenditures have only just begun...

[waksupi]

Ok, I cleaned up this mess a bit. You guys know better than this. Saz wants reasonable responses, not cheap shots.

Thread re-opened

[mustanggt]

Saz, understand about the one income. Been there many years ago and I had to give up those things I enjoyed doing in order to attend to their needs. I'm sorry if I came off abrasive about the whole BT/Italian thing. I know no matter what rifle you have you will enjoy yourself very much. Good luck.

[EDG]

>>>There is a 45-70 uberti in town with half round half octagon 32" barrel on sale at the local sportsmans wharehouse, and the fit and finish seems really good.<<<

Check out photos of the various Ubertis. Some are made by Pedersoli and have the equivalent fit and finish.
Some the Ubertis look like they were contracted out to the guys in the Khyber Pass. I have examined a few of the clunker Ubertis at guns shows where they invariably are priced about like the Pedersoli but are junky in comparison.

[saz]

"Saz, understand about the one income. Been there many years ago and I had to give up those things I enjoyed doing in order to attend to their needs. I'm sorry if I came off abrasive about the whole BT/Italian thing. I know no matter what rifle you have you will enjoy yourself very much. Good luck. "

Dont Sweat it. I completely understand where you are coming from, I really do. Money is just really tight and the last 5 years have not been perticularly easy on us.

EDG,
I looked a lot closer at the uberti and it is a little clunky and doesnt fit together like it should. Not impressed to say the least.