Helping a buddy get his first handgun. Would this be a good choice?

[Ole]

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/handguns/fm-argentine/p/argentine-fm-90-high-power%2C-9mm-very-good-condition-hi-power-model/cPath/16_496/products_id/4230

One of my first handguns was my S&W model 59 (PD trade in) and it's suited me well through thousands of rounds of ammo. This gun looks similar in concept. Full size 9mm does a lot of things reasonably well. :idea:

Planning on driving up to Prescott tomorrow (08/21/2010) with him, to check them out. Has anyone on the forum owned one of these? Do they shoot cast well? [smilie=f:

Appreciate any input/help.

Matt

[Tom-ADC]

If thats a Browning pattern Hi Power I'd think it would be a great shooter, I have a hi power and love it., zero problem should feed cast boolits just fine.

[knifemaker]

I have owned several Browing Hi-powers. Belgium and Argentine made in 9 mm and 40 S&W. All were accurate shooters and very reliable function. You can not go wrong on that choice for that price qouted. If the gun is in very good shape, snap it up. Very good chance it will out shoot your S&W M-59.

[stephen perry]

In the 70-80's in the shop I worked the Browning Hi-Power was the most desired if we could get enough of them. Don't know what 9mm is popular today but a Browning Hi-Power would be desireable to me. Custom hand guns open your wallet and get a loan.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Ruger Mark II . . . of course you can't really reload for it, but getting the fundamentals of shooting down first is most important, and the 22 rimfire will help with that.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=185069466

If your going that way . . . they also have the new Ruger http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/ruger/semi-auto/p/ruger-model-p512mkiii-22-45-5-5in-new/cPath/16_148_485/products_id/2434 Some people just prefer the Mark II over the new . . .

I've heard the Walther's are ok too . . . http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/handguns/walther/p/walther-p22-22lr-semi-auto-pistol%2C-new-/cPath/16_300/products_id/1693

[smoked turkey]

+1 on 123's post. I think a good 22 should be the first handgun (rifle too) for a new shooter. Ammo is cheap which promotes more shooting and more fun. Recoil is nil and a new shooter can learn good habits instead of worrying about muzzle blast, recoil, and the cost of ammo.

[Doc Highwall]

I agree the first gun should be a 22rf.

[HeavyMetal]

I'll also vote for the 22 handgun.

A Ruger Mark II or III Target a very good choice but if his wallet is fat then a number of other options, such as Colt woodsman target, High Standard had several nice target guns ( favor the Victor myself) Browning Medalist, first Gen S&W 41

DA guns like the Colt Officer match or Diamond back, S&W Outdoorsmen.

Things to stay away from:

Any "Crank and Yank", Whitney wolverine, any fixed sight 22 auto, the new S&W 22 auto's, any High Standard revolvers of any persuasion. Same deal with the H&R's!

Any of the aforementioned guns can get a job done but lack the refinements of a good target gun. I see no sense in "hobbling" a new shooter with a half decent gun when a few dollars more will buy the best!


If your going to insist on a centerfire pistol look around J&G for a Colt series 70 Mark IV in 9mm.

[fatelk]

I have had an FM Hi-Power for years, and love it. I had an FEG Hi-Power clone for a while. The finish was nicer, but the Argentine gun was way better made.

The only problem I ever had with the FM was when I shot some of those Swedish training rounds through it- the ones with the plastic bullet with a steel BB tip? Those things were never meant to be used in a regular barrel and will destroy it in short order. It wasn't the gun's problem and it now has a new barrel anyhow.

Question: first gun as in the first of many, one to practice with? In that case I would fully agree with a good .22 pistol. If it's a first gun in that he wants a gun and only needs one just to have, then it's really hard to go wrong with a good 9mm Hi-Power, and in my experience the FM is a good copy.

The Hi-Power is also known as the P35 Browning. It was designed by John Browning's protege, and was based somewhat on the 1911. They've been used by many different military forces all over the world for the last 3/4 century. I've been told that some Special Forces guys still use them. How can you go wrong?

[lylejb]

I agree with the many posters that say pistol marksmanship is easiest and best learned with a good 22.

I learned more about HOW to shoot, WITH ACCURACY, from my MK11 than from all the rest combined.

If self / home defense is part of his desire for a handgun, then I understand wanting something bigger than a 22. The 9mm should fill that role.

If finances allow, GET BOTH. he'll be much better off, and learn so much more.

as far as the hi-power clone, About 15 years ago I sold a south american Hi-power clone. I can't remember for sure if it was that exact one or not, so this may not apply. I remember it as a good pistol, but it had one quirk. The magazines for a browning HP would not fit. They looked almost exact, but the slot for the magazine catch was in a slightly different location. Just enough different that it wouldn't work.

I had ordered an aftermarket mag for my customer that was buying this pistol, thinking it was a Browning HP copy, so I ordered a replacment mag for a browning HP.......no luck

If you do get this pistol, get the extra mags with it.

[Echo]

+1 for the .22 target model, and my rec is for the Ruger, unless friend is flush, in which case a High Standard or Smith 41.

And make sure he gets GOOD COACHING, or else he will learn bad habits, and they are VERY hard to unlearn. It is very easy to learn bad habits, even with a .22.

[Doc Highwall]

I would also look to see if the gun manufacture of the say 9mm also makes a version in 22Lr. I have a Sig 228 and I also have a Sig Mosquito to practice with and I love it.

[82nd airborne]

+900 on the 22lr. look into the sig p6 for a first centerfire. If hes using it for protection, please tell him not to skimp, save save save your money and get something that wont let you down when/if you need it.

[stephen perry]

My first handgun was not a .22. My first handgun was something I could reload for. A S&W 36 3" barrel good for a kid was good for me back then. I started casting for the Smith when I was 13 and my dad loaded what I Cast. Learned Casting , loading, and shooting using the same handgun.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[82nd airborne]

My first was a 6" k frame, now a little too valuble for a 5 year old, not that I could even think about handeling it without my father, but a dang fine gun.

[fatelk]

The magazines for a browning HP would not fit.
Must have been a different brand, because standard Hi-Power magazines fit perfectly in my FM Hi-Power. I just looked it up and apparently the FM is a Browning-licensed copy. Mine has always worked great, and I would rely on it every bit as much as any more modern high-dollar gun. I've shot a lot of rounds through it with no problems.

Also, different people have quite different reasons for owning a gun. Some of us really get into it and end up owning a bunch of them. We don't think much of saving up and buying something nice.

Other folks, like my brother-in-law, aren't so much into it. He wants a couple guns around just to have, but he's never going to own a collection or practice his shooting every weekend. With a wife and four kids, he has enough trouble justifying two or three hundred bucks for one gun. Saving up $800 for a nice gun is just not going to happen, ever, and if he were to spend a couple hundred on a good .22, it would be a long, long time before he bought something bigger.

Not saying your friend is like that, but if he is I still think the FM is a very good gun for the money.
That said, I love .22s and fully agree that everyone should have at least one.:)

[azrednek]

I've got one I bought from J&G. Have about 3-400 rds through it and so far so good. I've put plenty of cast through it and it seems to like the Lee 125 RF sized to .357 but pay close attention to over all length. If you seat the boolit designed for 38/357 to deep and bury the top crimp groove it will give you a little trouble. Leave the groove exposed and seat it so the over all length is close to factory ammo, it will do very well for you.

I've purchased two after market mags for the Browning Hi-Power and they work and fit just fine.

[MT Gianni]

22lr runs about $18 for 525 in my area. $35.20 per 1000.If you can get wolf primers $18 per K. cast 105 gr boolits @$ .50 a lb=$7 per 1,000, 3.5 gr BE @ $15 lb in an 8 lb keg your costs are $7.50 per powder. 100 cases are easy to find and you can get 10 firings if you can find the empty's. That total is 32.50, letting you spend up to $23 on primers to equal 22 lr costs per 1000.
I believe many casters can shoot pb 32-40 cal cartridges cheaper than 22lr. If he loads already and is a good friend I would let him cast on your equipment if he scrounges his lead. 22 lr is no longer cheaper.

[Changeling]

That price if it is in real good condition is a steal. I have a Belgium made High Power like new, and I wouldn't part with it for double that price!

That said, I would also agree with the others that the first gun should be a .22 LR revolver, not a semi auto of any kind !

If you try to run before you're able to walk you might very well fall and hurt your self!

[Ole]

Well we made the trip and the gun was nice, but the grip was too small for my buddy and he'll keep looking.

The gun was in pretty nice shape. The hammer on that thing looks like it might be able to play a leading role if they ever make another Jaws movie. EEK!

Thanks for your thoughts gents. :drinks:

[rhead]

For a first handgun I would go with one of the better single action 22lrs. Ruger single six or equivalent.

[thx997303]

I'm going to not suggest any gun.

Take the man out, with a large variety of handguns, and have him shoot them.

Then he will be able to make an informed decision.

People do this "suggest a handgun for my wife" thing all the time.

The best thing is let the person who will own, shoot, and possibly carry it decide for themselves.

Just help them get the experience and information they need to make an informed decision.

[MtGun44]

If he needs a self defense handgun, then the key branch in the choices is whether he will
shoot enough to become totally familiar with the extra complexity of a semiauto. If not,
then he should have a revolver. The details beyond this fundamental choice can be
debated ad infinitum. The suggestion of shooting many different guns is a good one.
Unskilled folks with a semiauto are flat out dangerous and too many "forget which of
those buttons I push to make it work". Does that dohickey drop the "clip" or lock the
slide or is that the safety? . . . . . . A loaded revolver is absolutely usable by anyone
with 1-2 minutes of instruction. Used skillfully? No - but you could hit someone at
a range of a few feet for sure.

As to LEARNING to shoot well, the .22 LR Ruger standard auto is a superb and affordable
learning tool. Unless your friend is a high volume caster and reloader, he will never attain
any real skill with a handgun unless he shoots a .22 LR - this is purely an economic issue.

Today factory centerfire ammo is too expensive for most of us to afford to attain very much
skill at arms unless we are rich or handloaders.

Bill

[Crash_Corrigan]

The cost factor between .22 LR and hand cast 9mm's is a wash. I can make a box of 50 9's for less than that of a box of 50 22's.

Too bad that the grip did not fit your friend well. I have a Belgain made and assembled Browning circa 1985 and when I bought it was in NIB condition. Not a mark on it and probably less than 50 rounds though it. I paid over $700 for it and it was money well spent.

The trigger pull was beyond awful....it was tragic. I had my Gunny remove the disconnect and install an aftermarket trigger on it and now it is a crisp #3.5 and with the adjustible sights it shoots very well.

With a new set of Hougue grips on it I use it for my Barbeque Gun. It sits in an El Paso Floral Carved belt holster and everybody wants to see it.

However this is not a safe queen. It gets shot a lot and is treated with loving care. I make sure to have a thick towel on the concreate shooting bench when it resides thereat. It does require careful reloads as listed above. Dia must be .357 and the OAL is critical. Lubed with Lars White Label Carnuba Red it is a tack driver and will deliver 2 1/2" groups at 25 yds from a rest.

The fun is shooting steel in rapid fire. It really mows them down and is comfortable to shoot all day with mild reloads. Seeing as how I plan to pass it down to my grandson I seldom fire full house factory loads in it and I carry it very little for self defense. I have other guns that I am not afraid to nick up or wear off the finish on for that purpose.

My main CCW gun is a CA Bulldog .44 Special loaded with Hornady 180 GR XTP self defense rounds. They produce 1000 fps and 400 ft lbs of energy from a very tidy and easily concealed and carried wheelgun which always works. For my more serious social contacts expected CCW I carry my Taurus 1911 with 230 Gr Federal Hydra Shok JHP from a 7 round Colt mag with 10 round Mags as refills.

I learned how to shoot a pistol with a Colt Woodsman. It had suffered the indignity of having the barrel cut down and the front sight replaced with a finishing nail....it shot patterns not groups. However if I took my time and rested it well on something solid I could get it to shoot 3" at 25 yds. But I admit to mostly blasting tin cans and handy dirt clods at various ranges as fast as possible. Ammo was cheap in those days but the gun was so much fun to shoot.

Precision shooting was done with a Savage Model 23 Bolt Rifle in .22lr. It was heavy, ungainly and definetly not a modern rifle. Dad paid about $18 for it new when he was in High School during the depression. Most of my surplus funds went through the barrel of that gun over a 10 year period '51 to '61. It was big medicine for countless Racoons, Rabbits, Squirrels, Possums and Pole Cats.

When using those two guns we did not have ear plugs nor muffs. The rifle was not too bad but I suffered some hearing loss in spades from the Colt pistol.

Later on I graduated to a Baker 12 Gau Double and I finally got to shoot the most desired pistol of all. This was a genuine WWII spoils of war pistol. A good friend of my Mom's when she was growing up in the 30's in NYC was Bernie Racklin. During the war he volunteered and was selected to be a Paratrooper. He ended up making 5 combat jumps in Europe during the war and was decorated up the ying yang and received a Battlefield Commission and ended up a Captain by wars end. During the festivities he captured some Nazi brass and removed this Mauser .32 Auto Pistol from a German Officer. He told the story many times as when he accepted the surrender of this group of officers he made sure to tell them that he was a Jew and it really got under their skin.

Somehow he smuggled this pistol and some other trophies home in his duffle and got away with it. When he married his childhood sweetheart she wanted no part of any guns and he gave this gun to my Mom. It was kept in a wooden box wrapped in oiled paper for many years and one day Dad took me out with a box of .32 ACP rounds to shoot it. It was pristine and I doubt it had ever been fired. It came with a Nazi holster with the belt and silver buckle with the Swatsticka on it. It had a sheath on the front edge for an extra magazine. It only held 8 rounds of these tiny cartridges but it worked fine. It was a dissapointment as it was not very loud or powerful but it was the real deal with all the Nazi eagles and proofmarks etc. During the years gone by it dissapeared somewhere and I have never seen it since. I expect my sister got her hands on it and sold it off and kept the money.

[deltaenterprizes]

Revolver should be the first gun, the KISS principal.

[MtGun44]

Few people are going to buy their first gun AND take up handloading AND take up casting
at the same time. This is not realistic. Handloading is an advanced step that maybe 10%
ever do. Casting is another maybe 5%. The combination gives about 1 person in 200
gun owners, and that may be too high an estimate.

For the overwhelming majority, the .22 LR is the only viable training tool at a reasonable
price. You can learn a semiauto at the range in slow steps over months if you want to
practice and can afford it. The self defense handgun for the new or 'not so serious' person
needs to be a revolver. Fiddling with the safety and mag release at the range is OK, not
so much when you are half asleep and need to save your life.

[Echo]

I believe the OP was talking about a Smith 59, basically a large-capacity 9mm version of their 52 .38 target gun.

[grages]

I have a Smith model 59, I still like to shoot it. It is a big heavy gun by todays standards. It was my first handgun.

Shawn