Wc867 & 872

[RayinNH]

I received an E-mail from Widener's today. They have WC867 and WC872 for $49.00 per 8# jug. Not bad if you like the slow burners...Ray

[MT Gianni]

Unfamiliar with 867 but I like 860 & 872.

[res45]

For some of us new guys that haven't had the chance to experience using those two powder and might cross paths with them one day,what calibers are they best suited for?

[wiljen]

These are 50 BMG and 20mm powders. Unless you get into cases the size of 300 weatherby or larger, you cannot possibly generate enough pressure to be a problem with a full case of powder. As an example, a full case worth of powder in the 30-06 behind a 311291 with a WLRM primer will get you about 1900fps from a 24" barrel. I've burned a lot of 860 in a wide variety of rounds almost always with magnum primers and usually for fairly sedate velocities but good accuracy.

at $45 for 8lbs, pick up a keg and enjoy some cheap shooting.

[doubs43]

I use WC-860 in my 38-55 and 45-70 duplex loads. It shoots exactly the same as 8700 did.

For the 38-55, I use 2.5 grains of WW-231 and 32.0 grains of WC-860 with a 320 grain cast bullet in Starline 2.125" cases.

In the 45-70 I use 3.0 grains of WW-231 and 57.0 grains of WC-860 topped by a 320 grain RCBS GC cast bullet.

A standard LR primer is used for both loads. Extremely consistent velocities and very accurate in my rifles.

The 872 that Widners offers is a deal and should work fine when my WC-860 runs out.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm another "duplex loader" of WC-860 in the 45-70. 6.0 grains of IMR-4198 followed by 48.0 grains of WC-860 gives 100% loading density in R-P cases with the Lee 405 grain plain base boolit. Use of Federal #215 primers gives fine accuracy, no unburned powder kernels, and 1873 ballistics--about 1300 FPS.

[Wayne Smith]

Years ago I used H870 in my 25-06. One shooter praised it saying "It's so slow it burns all the way to the target!" I think these powders are all similar to the old H870. If so I need to get some.

[midnight]

I use 872 in the 50BMG. So far I got 2500+fps with a 690gr jacketed. It's much slower than 50BMG. 195gr of 50BMG gives me 2100fps with a 833gr cast bullet. 195gr of 872 gives over 2300fps which was too fast for the linotype bullet. Pressures were fine with both loads. I'm going to try 872 with the 6.5x55 next. The Swede works well with 4831 and RL22 so 872 should work with 140+gr bullets. The BMG can probably be pushed to 2600 to 2700 from my 30in barrel with a little more 872.


Bob

[-06]

9.3 and Doups, Are you guys mixing powders? If so please advise as am very interested in trying it also. PM info please, thanks.

[wiljen]

The Term mixing is a very very dangerous word when talking about duplexing loads.

a duplex load must be a compressed load with a small amount of fast powder held directly against the flash-hole that serves as the ignitor for the larger amount of super slow powder on top of it.

Mixing the powders would ruin the load, cause uneven burn, terrible accuracy/consistency and potentially far worse problems.

general rules for duplexing loads are as follows.

1.) a fast powder goes between the flash-hole and the main charge.

2.) use as bulky a fast powder as possible for the ignitor charge. (Never use ball powders as they can migrate even under pressure). Large flake powders or stick powders are preferable here.

(Example I use 3gr of unique in the 45-70 against the flashhole).

3.) gently add the main charge so it disturbs the ignitor as little as possible and make sure the main charge takes up enough room that when a bullet is seated the powder column cannot shift or move and thus mix the powders.

If enough powder cannot be used to accomplish this, a filler must be used to make certain the load does not shift and mix the charges

(Here, I recommend Grex as it is what I typically use).

4.) start with a small ignitor charge (2-3gr) and only work up til you get a clean burn. More is not better, just wasteful.

[RayinNH]

Update to my original post, Widener's now has these two powders for $39.00 per 8 pound jug...Ray

[9.3X62AL]

I use 872 in the 50BMG. So far I got 2500+fps with a 690gr jacketed. It's much slower than 50BMG. 195gr of 50BMG gives me 2100fps with a 833gr cast bullet. 195gr of 872 gives over 2300fps which was too fast for the linotype bullet. Pressures were fine with both loads. I'm going to try 872 with the 6.5x55 next. The Swede works well with 4831 and RL22 so 872 should work with 140+gr bullets. The BMG can probably be pushed to 2600 to 2700 from my 30in barrel with a little more 872.


Bob

What Wiljen said, concerning duplex loading.

I've used a full case of WC-860 (55.0 grains) in the 6.5 x 55 with 140 grain jacketed bullets, and got 1895-level ballistics--2450-2475 FPS and very good accuracy. WLR standard primers did well. Credit to Buckshot for that info.

[dverna]

Why use 45+ grains of $50 powder to do what 15 grains of $120 powder will do?

Or add another step in the process by using a duplex load?

Don

[RayinNH]

Why use 45+ grains of $50 powder to do what 15 grains of $120 powder will do?

Don


Excellent accuracy for one, safety for two, no chance of double charging and low pressure to boot...Ray

[9.3X62AL]

Why use 45+ grains of $50 powder to do what 15 grains of $120 powder will do?

Or add another step in the process by using a duplex load?

Don

Don--

In the not-too-distant past, WC-860 could be had for $24/8# flask. At that price level, duplexing and filling the case up made sense economically. When the loads shot accurately, an "addiction" became possible. :) And an affordable one, at that.

An equivalent load in 45-70 using IMR-4198 uses 28.0 grains to get 1300 FPS. These shoot well, but not as well as the duplex loadings.

As for the 6.5 x 55, the loads using WC-860 match the best loads the rifle has shot at 100 and 200 yards, group for group. IMR-4831 can yield about 200 FPS more velocity, but no better accuracy. I doubt the deer would feel cheated by the absence of that 200 FPS of speed.

I'm not worried about load economics to an extreme degree. The use of surplus powders can in some instances become a sub-hobby of its own.

[brakeline]

It's not clear to me - this thread started out to be about WC-867 and WC-872 being available at very low cost - currently $39/8 lbs. at Wideners, but then somehow WC-860 crept into the discussion. Is WC-860 equivalent to the other two, or very similar at least? Every time I see these $5/lb prices at Wideners, I start to wonder what, if any, negative consequences are there for using a far-too-slow powder in the small cases that I mostly shoot. For example, what would be the problems, if any, of stuffing a Hornet case full of one of these powders, or a 25/20 case, or a 30/30 case? Sure it might not all burn, but at $5/lb vs. the store prices of $2X per lb. for the normally recommended powders, who cares? I just have to believe that the cartridge is still going to go "bang" and the bullet will still come out the end of the barrel - maybe at a couple of hundred feet per second less than normal loads? Any body out there that wants to help me with these thoughts, I sure would like to hear from you.....

dan

[Maven]

brakeline, All 3 are very slow burning milsurp powders, with WC 872 being [in theory] the slowest. Would I use them in smaller cartridges, including the low pressure .30-30Win.? No! In fact, I wouldn't use them in any cartridge smaller than the .270Win., although some would contest that. E.g., I tried WC 860 in both the .243Win. and 6.5 x 55mm Swe. Mau. and was completely dissatisfied with the results. Said propellants work best with larger capacity, high pressure cartridges with heavy CB's, almost full loadings (no less than 46gr. WC 860 in the .30-06 + CB's of at least 175gr. or more, for ex.), and mag. primers. For loading data, take a look at this: http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Surplus/default.html

[hydraulic]

Slow powder-4831, 872, 860- in the amount of 46 grains, as Maven mentioned, loaded behind a 200 gr. cast bullet will operate the action of an M1 reliably with good accuracy. Fast pistol powders will not.

[Wayne Smith]

brakeline, All 3 are very slow burning milsurp powders, with WC 872 being [in theory] the slowest. Would I use them in smaller cartridges, including the low pressure .30-30Win.? No! In fact, I wouldn't use them in any cartridge smaller than the .270Win., although some would contest that. E.g., I tried WC 860 in both the .243Win. and 6.5 x 55mm Swe. Mau. and was completely dissatisfied with the results. Said propellants work best with larger capacity, high pressure cartridges with heavy CB's, almost full loadings (no less than 46gr. WC 860 in the .30-06 + CB's of at least 175gr. or more, for ex.), and mag. primers. For loading data, take a look at this: http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Surplus/default.html

Maven is right, but I would add that they are useful in what used to be considered seriously overbore cartridges; e.g. the Weatherby line, some of the AI cases, the 25-06, etc.

[MT Gianni]

I interchanged data with 860 and 872 after working things up with my lots in a 30-06. For starting loads I went to Castpics and used Buckshots data -3 grains then refined it to my gun.

[mroliver77]

I have not found any mention of using jacketed bullets with these powders anywhere. Even though we are a CB site I will still ask; has anybody used these powders with condom bullets in the 06 class of cartridges?

There is way more resistance and I "assume" that would help these powders burn better, no? If you buy 6 8lb jugs wideners eats the hazmat. At $39. per 8 that gets it down to a tad over 3 cents a round for powder. I have many thousands of 150gr condoms and a couple heavy .30 cal moulds.

Anybody near Toledo want to go in on some powder?
J

[Jailer]

I have not found any mention of using jacketed bullets with these powders anywhere. Even though we are a CB site I will still ask; has anybody used these powders with condom bullets in the 06 class of cartridges?

There is way more resistance and I "assume" that would help these powders burn better, no? If you buy 6 8lb jugs wideners eats the hazmat. At $39. per 8 that gets it down to a tad over 3 cents a round for powder. I have many thousands of 150gr condoms and a couple heavy .30 cal moulds.

Anybody near Toledo want to go in on some powder?
J

Some of the same things I was wondering. I've got a 338-06 project in the works and was wondering how this powder might perform behind a 225gr jacketed bullet.

If I were still living in Adrian, I'd take you up on that offer.

[frank505]

Shot some WC 860 yesterday in my 338/06 Imp. 240 grain gas check bullet, Federal 215, vel was 1877 with an sd of 25. Accuracy was good, no vertical, horizontal was 2 inches. Snowing pretty good, NE wind gusting to 20+, shooting north. POI was about 1 inch higher than where 275 grain Speer hits.
Works better in the 30/06 with heavy bullets like the 30/247 or the 311284. I would like to attain 2000 fps or close for my cast hunting loads.
WC 867 and 872 just got delivered, will do some load workup as time and weather allows, probably going to very similar to WC 860 though.

[jonk]

It does ok with jacketed. Unless you have a big mag cartridge, 5 gr of SR 4759 with the cannon powder added to the seating depth and a light compression will at least help get consistent burn a little above 2000 fps.

DON'T mix the powders.

[frank505]

going to try 3 grains of 4759 as a kicker charge under 60 grains of 860 and a 300 grain gas check in my 338/06. Also will try 50 grains of 852 and see if any load will get to 2000 fps.

[9.3X62AL]

The 6.5 x 55/WC-860 data I gave earlier used 140 grain jacketed bullets, Hornady #2630 IIRC.

[mroliver77]

The 6.5 x 55/WC-860 data I gave earlier used 140 grain jacketed bullets, Hornady #2630 IIRC.
I read right over your post without it soaking in! Garsh I am slipping!


I found that I have some 180 and 200gr .30 jacketed in the stash.

These might really help the cannon powder light off!
J

[hydraulic]

In my earlier post I mentioned that 46 grs. of 860 would work the action of an M1. This information was somewhat premature and based on my experience with 872. Now I find that with 46 grs. of 860 the first shot worked the action ok but left the barrel and breach so filled with unburned powder the second round would not chamer. Went to 54 grs. and can fire 4-6 rds. before failure to chamber. Buckshot recommends up to 55 grs., but even with 54 there is considerable recoil and it's slaming the bolt back pretty hard. All this with magnum primers and the Lee 200 gr bullet. I have used surplus 4831 at 41 grs. in my M1 for years but ran out. What are you M1 shooters experiencing with 860?

[hydraulic]

I solved the problem of unburned 860 fouling an M1 by loading 55 grs. with 3 grs of 3031 as a kicker and 1 gr. of dacron for a filler. M1 cycled smartly, no unburned powder, cartridges ran through it smoothly. Accuracy was terrible. Started reducing the charge of 860 and have arrived at 43 grs. with the above kicker and filler and with a magnum primer. Function is the same but the accuracy has improved. Bought 6 jugs of 872 from Wideners and find the same load works well with that powder.

[burr7870]

Hydraulic, if I am reading this correctly you could not get the Garand to burn clean enough to cycle without using the kicker? I am interested in these powders if I can get cast to cycle the action and shoot accurately.

Thanks

[hydraulic]

burr: Yes, that has been my experience. The jug of 860 said to use the starting load for H870, which was 10% below the recommended 60 grains, or 54 grains, and then to reduce that another 15% which came out at 43 grs. As I mentioned above, the first round fired ok, but the second would not chamber because of so much unburned powder. I kept increasing the powder charge, 2 grs. at a time, until I reached 55, when the recoil became vicious. At this point, I started using a kicker; 3 grs. 3031, a dacron filler, and a Mag primer. The accuracy was terrible, so I began reducing the charge and arrived back at 43 which works well; burns clean, shoots accurately, comfortable to shoot, and cycles the action smartly.

[BD]

I use a case full of WC860 under 160 grain RN JSPs in the 6.5x55 with excellent results. "Factory" ballistics in the 29" barrel, somewhat less than factory velocity from my 22" truck gun. I haven't used the real slow powders with lighter bullets as I still have about 10 lb of WC852(s) which is unbeatable under the 120 and 140 grain bullets in 6.5x55.

15 years ago I did load work up with WC860 and WC872 in the .270WBY mag using 150 grain Nosler Partitions. I got acceptable results, +/- one MOA at a little over 3,000 fps. However I was unhappy with the velocity variation due to temperature, (+/- 200 fps between 20 deg and 80 deg if I remember), and was somewhat concerned with what might occur on a really hot day out west. As that .270WBY is a hunting rifle, not a "shooter", I'm spending the $ on Retumbo for it these days.
BD

[AZ-JIM]

Has anyone used the wc872 in the 7mm magnum? My dad has a load worked up for his that will cloverleaf 3 rds at 100 yds but it uses h870. I have enough left to make about three more rounds and haven't tried AA8700 yet. This load is also with full length gas checks. What are your findings with jacketed and cast using the 872?

az-jim

[Doc_Stihl]

My 7mm Magnum LOVES WC872. First loads I ran through it are touching at 100. I don't have the data handy, but I was using 168gr Bergers and some heavy sierras and accuracy was stellar on both.

[newcastter]

My 7mm Magnum LOVES WC872. First loads I ran through it are touching at 100. I don't have the data handy, but I was using 168gr Bergers and some heavy sierras and accuracy was stellar on both.

How many grains of 872 are you loading in the 7mm? I am debating ordering it to use it for my 7mm Rem Mag

[45 2.1]

I have not found any mention of using jacketed bullets with these powders anywhere. Even though we are a CB site I will still ask; has anybody used these powders with condom bullets in the 06 class of cartridges?

There is way more resistance and I "assume" that would help these powders burn better, no? If you buy 6 8lb jugs wideners eats the hazmat. At $39. per 8 that gets it down to a tad over 3 cents a round for powder. I have many thousands of 150gr condoms and a couple heavy .30 cal moulds.

Anybody near Toledo want to go in on some powder?
J

J-
867 is an excellent powder providing its loaded right. I and others have used 867 extensively in the 308 with jacketed and cast............ there was little difference in burning rate regardless of boolit or bullet. This is a slow powder that is somewhat temperature sensitive. It is a first rate cold weather powder. To get results out of 867, you have to use a booster charge....... not any of the shotgun powders either.... use the faster burning rifle powders in the 5 to 8 gr. charge level with a full case of 867 on top of it, compressed lightly by the boolit. You can get MOA or a little less at long range doing this PROVIDED the boolit fits very well.

[exhunter223]

I have loaded wc867 in a .38 special with a 147 grn 9mm lead bullet. shooting it out of my winchester lever, sounds like a pellet gun , still goes out 100 plus yards..Lots of fun...

I have even used it on my .223 , very nice. Quiet dont need ear plugs..But only in a bolt action. You can shoot it out of a ar , but it is dirty and my clog the gas piston...

[exhunter223]

Has anyone used the wc872 in the 7mm magnum? My dad has a load worked up for his that will cloverleaf 3 rds at 100 yds but it uses h870. I have enough left to make about three more rounds and haven't tried AA8700 yet. This load is also with full length gas checks. What are your findings with jacketed and cast using the 872?

az-jim

I have used wc867. I think they are the same? I just load them up with just enogh room for the bullet.. Worked great for me...

[Aaron]

In answer to the j bullet use, wc867 gives 3146 fps in my girlfriend's 270 Weatherby using 140 gr Barnes TSX and 81 grs if powder.

Aaron

[Aaron]

My WC867 is the current batch from Widner's.

338 Winchester Mag, Kimber Montana with a 21 inch barrel( not Factory length)
77grs pushes a 250gr Combined Technology Partition to 2620 FPS.

I have some for a 416 Rigby and Hornady 400 SP that I will post as well.

With jacketed, it burns slightly slower than H-1000.

Aaron

[Maximumbob54]

Breath of life to a zombie thread. I took up Widener's on the buy enough and they eat the hazmat charge on WC867 and WC872 both.

Just curious if anyone else has more to add to this. I'm in shock to read this would work in .38 special. Do you just fill it to wear the boolit sits over it or does it need to be compressed? I would think if you can do a .38 then you could do a .357 in the same manner which makes me think you could do the same for a .44 load too. I may be reaching on that though. I clicked the link for the Surplus Powder Data and that's a great start. Can anyone add anything else to it? I don't get why it wouldn't work in .30-30 but it worked in a .38??? Widener's still has both powders in stock.

[375RUGER]

Are you talking about the Castpics link below? If you follow it you will find data for 30-30 using WC872.

[Maximumbob54]

I didn't even know a 220gr bullet would fit in a .30-30 cartridge and I have to assume that's for a single shot rifle. It says the barrel length was 26" so I'm guessing it wasn't a lever action or it wasn't one I've ever seen. I wonder if WC872 is so slow that you HAVE to use a heavy for caliber bullet to slow it down some to match the burn rate with the barrel length. I guess I just wish there was some more info. I like the talk of the duplex loads but I've never seen data for any of those other than some random posts. Is there a source for that as well?

[justcharlie]

need load for a 30-378 web mag with wc-872
thanks for your help justcharlie

[Reload3006]

well I hope its good stuff I just ordered 16lbs of WC-872 and 28Lbs of IMR-7383 from Jeff...... Looking forward to checking it out. The 7383 looks like I will really get some 06 use out of it and I found a load for the WC-872 for 06 180gr condom under 63gr does that sound about right?

[Dapaki]

Arise old thread!

I loaded my 7mm-08 with WC867 today, 50gr under the LEE 285 130, GC and PC. Kicked just like a factory J-word cartridge, no idea what the speed was but for $0.035 worth of powder per shot, I'll take it all day long (or until my shoulder gives out).

A 10 shot string at 50 yards was a touch under 2" with a badly fouled bore, the shots wandered to the right then looped under and around to the start. Very strange. It looks like I will need to pull a snake every 50 shots or so.

[Dapaki]

I have been duplexing the WC867 with IMR 4198 and Ram Silhouette in .223, 7mm-08, 7.62x39 and now the 350 Legend. All will great success and good speeds, bolt lock up in the AR's etc. I have been very happy with the WC867 so far and the price is right!

[ebb]

Ive had WC 872 for many years. Used it with 300 RUM, 300 Jar, and 338 lap and jacketed bullets. I used Hodgdon H870 for data and it worked well, but back off some and work your way up. I tried it in 6.5-284, it shoot Ok but speed was not up to snuff and ran out of case cap before i could get what i was looking for. I think the closest powder to WC872 made today is US869,but that's just my best guess.

[rupe01]

I have used W872 duplex successfully in many cartridges, even including .45 Colt and .454 Casull. In today's world of disappearing powder, i think that many may find it very useful. I am very glad i still have around 30lbs of it and at just over $4 a pound i found it hard to refuse.

[ebb]

Just Charlie H870 data is close but i would work my way up.