Comparison between Pat's 32/8mm Checks & Hornady commercial

[Jim Sheldon]

Finally got around to getting some 8 X 57 loaded up for the comparison tests..

I loaded 20 rounds - 205 grain nominal dropped from Lee 329-205-1R dual cavity mold. Sized to .323 with .014 Amerimax aluminum gas checks made with Patmarlin's Checkmaker. Brass is Remington once fired, Winchester WLR primers and 12.5 grains of IMR Trail Boss.

My wife loaded 20 rounds - same bullet, also sized to .323 but with Hornady .32 caliber commercial copper gas checks. Same brass, primers and powder. All powder charges were individually weighed using an RCBS 5-0-5 scale. and the seating die was set to produce an OAL of 2.855 which puts the crimp right in the center of the first driving band.

The rifle that will be used for the comparison is a 1940 Berliner Lubecker Maschinenfabrik 98K that was captured by the Russians. The only thing they messed with was the stock, some bolt parts and they punched out the swastikas. The barrel & receiver have the original serial numbers and are matching. It slugs .3219 in the grooves.

I used an ATI no-gunsmithing mount and have a Chinese clone of a Sightron 8.5-24 X 40 sniper scope on it.

The test will be run on an indoor 100 yard range and the targets will be set at 100 yards.

All 40 bullets were weighed and sorted. Out of 100 I was able to get 40 that were within .2 grains of 205. They ranged from 205.0 to 205.2 grains and I think that will be close enough for a good comparison. The ones that I didn't select ranged from 204.3 on the light side to 207.7 on the high side. They were cast from wheel weight lead with a bit of solder added to the mix and were water quenched. After setting a couple weeks, the average hardness is BHN 24 measured using a SAECO tester.

I have a lane reserved at the range tomorrow morning for the test and I'll post the results when I get them, including pictures of the targets.

Jim

Jim

[Von Gruff]

Looking forward to the results, although it would be interesting to see a higher vel load as well to see if the results vary.

Von Gruff.

[Jim Sheldon]

Looking forward to the results, although it would be interesting to see a higher vel load as well to see if the results vary.

Von Gruff.

I would, but I haven't found any known safe load data for this particular caliber/bullet combination.

I shoot on an indoor range and cannot set up a chronograph due to the range configuration.

I do have another faster load using some tested Hotchkiss "Glass Flake" powder salvaged from Romanian 8mm surplus ammo of 1950's vintage that Has been tested and I've shot some with good results.

Starting load was 17.0 grains and it chrono'd around 1240 FPS all the way up to 28 grains which chrono'd 1855 FPS.

I did shoot these with the Hornady checks and the 17.0 grain charge was the most accurate - .58" center to center at 50 yards, opening out to over an inch with 28 grains.

I have 5 each loaded for today's range session with 28.0 grains of HGF (5 aluminum and 5 Hornady commercial checks) so even though I don't have chrono values for the Trail Boss accuracy load, I'm pretty sure it's somewere between 1200 and 1400 FPS. I'll add the targets if I get time to shoot them.

Jim

[Jim Sheldon]

Results are in:

The .014 Amerimax aluminum Checkmaker chex performed marginally better than the Hornady commercial copper gas checks all other factors being roughly equal - same weight bullet, brass, primers powder (12.5 gr. Trail Boss), same rifle, same distance (100 yards indoors) and from a front rest.

Just for grins, I also included 5 shots loaded the same but with checks made out of .005 brass shim stock. These looked like little brass bottle caps but crimped on the boolits okay so I loaded and fired them as part of the test.

The bottle cap ones didn't group as tight as either the Hornady commercial checks or the ones I made out of the Amerimax aluminum, but they were certainly consistent and accurate enough to be useful in pretty much any hunting or defense situation.

Jim

[wallenba]

Jim, how much difficulty did you encounter sizing the .329 down to .323? I would assume that the mold dropped it even larger than .329. I am currently working on the same problem with my K98, a 1944 dou (Waffen Werke Brunn, Brystica). I have successfully lapped a lee .323 sizer to .324 and was planning on using the Lee C324-175-R if it drops large enough.
I am using the IMR Trail Boss formula too in my Mosin's and my K31 as they are just fun guns and I would like to keep the bores from getting worse, and the low recoil is a nice benefit..

[Jim Sheldon]

Jim, how much difficulty did you encounter sizing the .329 down to .323? I would assume that the mold dropped it even larger than .329. I am currently working on the same problem with my K98, a 1944 dou (Waffen Werke Brunn, Brystica). I have successfully lapped a lee .323 sizer to .324 and was planning on using the Lee C324-175-R if it drops large enough.
I am using the IMR Trail Boss formula too in my Mosin's and my K31 as they are just fun guns and I would like to keep the bores from getting worse, and the low recoil is a nice benefit..

Dutch,
I got lucky with this Lee 329-205-1R dual cavity mold. It really does drop .329's. As for sizing to .323, I actually do it in 2 stages. I have a custom made "Lee style" size die in .325 as well as an actual Lee .323 die. After tumble lubing the boolits with Lee liquid alox cut 50-50 with mineral spirits and letting them dry overnight, I run 'em through the .325 sizer, snap the GC's on the shanks and run 'em through the .323 for a final size. I tumble lube & let dry again before boxing them up in lots of 100. That's assuming I'm not going to load them immediately. I usually let them sit a couple weeks or so to harden up more.

I sometimes do size 'em all the way from .329 to .323 in one shot if I do it just after casting and once they've cooled enough to handle, but normally I'll cast 'em one day and maybe next weekend I'll size and GC 'em.

I think you may have trouble getting that 175 gr boolit to group out of that K98. It seems that most all the German manufactured 8mm Mausers had barrels that were regulated for the 197-198 grain Boat Tail bullets and I found mine didn't like the lighter 175 grain ones. The first 8mm mold I bought was the same one you have. I played with 2400, 3031, Red Dot and even bullseye as well as Trail Boss trying to get good groups out of those boolits. No luck and then someone pointed it out to me that most of the 98 Mauser barrels liked the heaver boolits so I got that 329-205 mold. I almost jammed the .323 size die up trying to take some boolits I had cast and let sit for a couple weeks, so a guy on another forum had a .325 die custom made for me. Guy only charged me $25 plus shipping for it and it works really well. I shot some at .325 but my 98K's bore slugs .3129 and once I did the "double dip" and made 'em into .323, I started getting fantastic accuracy out of the 205's.

Wish I had chronograph data on the Trail Boss loads, but no place to obtain it around here and I sold my chrono a couple years ago because I had no place to shoot where I could use it.

Jim

[Mugs]

Jim
Looks like you can give up those high priced copper things now. I've got Pat's 30 and 357 checkmaker, when he gets a 7MM i'll be all set.
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

[Jim Sheldon]

Jim
Looks like you can give up those high priced copper things now. I've got Pat's 30 and 357 checkmaker, when he gets a 7MM i'll be all set.
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

I already had a pretty good idea they were gonna work well from info posted by others but there was some skepticism being shown around so I thought I'd run my own tests and publish the results.

I'm probably more of an unknown than some of the others are, but I try to make sure that anything I post can be backed up with facts and I'm not afraid to post my screw-ups as well. Sometimes, the screw-ups make for much more interesting reading anyway ;) I'm no perfectionist by any stretch of the imagination, but when I bought this particular Mauser off a guy I met on another forum and that only lives about 90 miles from me, I found it was scary accurate. Now that I've found several bullets and loads that it likes, I'm almost off the grid for everything except primers & powder and I've got a fair stock of that stuff as well.

Those .005 brass shim stock checks look so much like miniature bottle caps that I jokingly told Pat that he needed to make me one of those old fashioned bottle capping tools to match the size (in his spare time, of course). That way I could make some miniature pop or beer bottles to go with my grand-niece's 1/4 scale doll house - :-)

Haven't heard back from him on that one, but I suspect he's still laughing at the spare time remark.

Saving the shekels so I can get a 30 caliber checkmaker to work with my Mosin 91/30 boolits.

Jim

[wallenba]

Jim, I just left Midway's site. I ordered that mold and a Lyman .325 sizing die (surprised to find it!). My barrel slugged exactly .323 and I'm shooting for .324. I don't have to go as far down as you do, but every little step would help. I might try lapping the Lyman out a bit. I tried that with my .314 for my M38 (likes .315's). I found the Lyman a lot tougher to lap than the Lee's though.

[Jim Sheldon]

Looking forward to the results, although it would be interesting to see a higher vel load as well to see if the results vary.

Von Gruff.

Von Gruff,
Here's the 5 shot group I ran at 50 yards with the 8mm 205 grain Lee 329-205-1R sized to .323 using .014 Amerimax GC's made with the 32 caliber Checkmaker.

I got back to the range last evening. The lane I got had target carrier problems and I could only shoot at 50 yards instead of 100, hence the high group. It probably wouldn't be this tight at 100 yards.

The powder used was pulled from 1950's vintage Yugo surplus ammo and is reported to be Hotchkiss glass plate flake powder. A friend who goes by Black Wolf over on the Surplus Rifle forum had done some pretty extensive research and testing of this powder and he has worked up a chronograph verified velocity chart for this powder and the 205 grain GC boolit I use. 17gr of the stuff clocks at 1238FPS and 28 grains clocks at 1854FPS with the velocity increase between those two points graphing very linear. He ran chrono averages in one grain increments between 17 and 28 grains.

I loaded these up with 28 grains of HGF and got the resulting group last night. I had shot this stuff before using Hornady checks with basically the same results. It actually will cloverleaf them at 17 grains and gradually opens up to what you see in the target as you progress up through the 28 grain load. No leading was observed even at the higher speed.

The 1950's Yugo powder burns very clean with almost no residue and doesn't appear to be corrosive in the least. (I accidentally forgot to clean the rifle for almost a week after one particularly intense range session where I had shot 50 rounds of the surplus ammo I pulled this powder from and the bore showed no signs of rust or any other evidence of corrosion, so the primers in this older ammo (vintage 1955) don't appear to be corrosive either.

Jim

[Von Gruff]

Thanks for the up-date jim,

I am looking forward to one of Pats 7mm tools to try as he says it will handle some copper I have that is .021. I have another GC maker that works with the aluminium and up to about 18-1900fps over 17.2gn Blue Dot is more than adequate for plinking but not in the class of the groups you have posted above. With an al gc 12 shots were in 3 in at 100yds. can not get the type of al you are using but think the copper will improve thing considerably right up to the 2400fps I get with my soft nosed hunting loads over 39gn H4350 and the hornady gc.

Von Gruff.

[Jim Sheldon]

Thanks for the up-date jim,

I am looking forward to one of Pats 7mm tools to try as he says it will handle some copper I have that is .021. I have another GC maker that works with the aluminium and up to about 18-1900fps over 17.2gn Blue Dot is more than adequate for plinking but not in the class of the groups you have posted above. With an al gc 12 shots were in 3 in at 100yds. can not get the type of al you are using but think the copper will improve thing considerably right up to the 2400fps I get with my soft nosed hunting loads over 39gn H4350 and the hornady gc.

Von Gruff.

I've got a 50 foot by 6" wide roll of the Amerimax .014 stuff. I could send you a couple of feet of it if you like so you can try it. There is a company in New York that carries it for about $20 shipped for that 50 foot roll.

PM me an address if you'd like me to send you a strip of it.

Jim

[Von Gruff]

Jim thanks but I live in New Zealand. PM inbound.

Von Gruff.