case annealing the easy way

[omgb]

I read an interesting article from, I believe, John Barsness. Any way, he said that he discovered that the heat from a wax candle was perfect for case annealing. You hold the base of the case in your fingers and twirl the neck and mouth in the flame of a common candle for about 10 seconds. Then wipe the case with a wet cloth to remove the soot. That's it. Soft enough to avoid splits and hard enough to old up to sizing and seating. I'm gonna have to try this.

[felix]

Annealing is a function of time and heat. Hotter the temp, the less time it takes to get to a CERTAIN and LIMITED anneal. Why? Because you don't need cartridge brass butter soft to keep it from splitting! Actually, it is better to anneal cartridge necks more often at lower temps, and with less time per sitting to maintain the anneal just barely needed. There is no desire to chance having the case length change. ... felix

[Last Spike]

RJ, can you cite the specific magazine and issue John wrote this article, please?

Thank you!

[omgb]

I was on the Wolfe publishing site in the Loaddata section. It says it's open for all as opposed to those articles that are "members only" I have it in PDF if you can't access it. I believe it was an essay done especially for the site and did not appear in either Rifle or Handloader. The gist of it is this: John has a friend who is a metallurgist by trade. He did several experiments with temperature disclosing paints and discovered that a common wax candle provides sufficient heat after just 10 seconds to soften case brass sufficiently. Given the fact that I've destroyed a few cases with a propane torch and the fact that I hate having to wait for the water to dry from the cases, this method seems perfect. I intend to try it today on a lot of 30-30 cases I'm turning into .375 Win.

[felix]

Great! Let us know. If 10 seconds works for "normal" neck thickness, start trials with 8 seconds for the thinner necked brass. ... felix

[omgb]

I sure hope this works as advertised. Can you imagine? All of the vodoo, special tools, mess etc. all replaced by a $1.00 candle. I can only hope John is right.

[joatmon]

Handloader # 218 August/2002 Page 75 . Read it just the other day so it was fresh on what little mind I have left. Aaron

[B747]

I am definitely not a metallurgist, but I do have serious doubts that holding a case in a candle flame for 10 sec will result in any appreciable annealing.

It takes 6 to 8 sec in the hottest part of a propane torch flame to raise the
cartridge neck to a temp required for annealing in that time interval.

One of the best articles I have read on annealing is at :
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

I have used the Hornady "Annealing System" discussed in it and it works well
but is a little slow --- about 300 cases in an hour.

Wally

[bruce drake]

I think I'm going to try the candle route myself. It's definitely cheaper and probably easier than my current method of a propane torch and a bucket of water.

Here is a portion taken from my son's science book regarding the variable heat colors.:coffee:

Why is the color of a flame usually orange?

The typical, bright, yellowish-orange upper part of a flame is due to the heating of unburned carbon particles.

The temperature of the fire and the material being burned are the factors that determine the color of the flame. The various colors of flames in a wood fire are due to the different substances in the flames.

The strong orange color of most wood flames results when sodium contained in the wood is heated.

The temperature of wood flames is lower than that of candle flames, which colors the wood flames orange, not yellow. If, however, some of the carbon particles in the fire are very hot, the color will be yellow. The product of the burnt carbon, when it has cooled, is black soot.

Since fire needs oxygen to burn, and since the bottom of a candle flame does not get much oxygen, it is the hottest spot in the flame and is blue in color.

The flame cools and changes color as it moves away from the source of the flame, because it is exposed to more oxygen. The temperature change causes the color of the flame to change from blue, at the hottest, lower portion of the flame, to the typical, bright, yellowish-orange or bright orange color with which most people are familiar with. Which shade of orange is seen at the upper portion of the flame, where the flame is the coolest, depends upon the material being burned.

And here are some data on the fuels that some of us use for annealing. Granted this information is from one of my textbooks on welding but I think you get the idea. I might think we are doing some overkill with our current methods:[smilie=1:

Acetylene
Acetylene produces the highest flame temperature of all the fuel gases. The maximum flame temperature for acetylene (in oxygen) is approximately 3,160°C compared with a maximum temperature of 2,810°C with propane. The hotter flame produces more rapid piercing of the materials with the pierce time being typically one third that produced with propane.
The higher flame speed (7.4m/s compared with 3.3m/s for propane) and the higher calorific value of the primary flame (inner cone) (18,890kJ/m 3 compared with 10,433 kJ/m 3 for propane) produce a more intense flame at the surface of the metal reducing the width of the Heat Affected Zone (HAZ) and the degree of distortion.

Propane
Propane produces a lower flame temperature than acetylene (the maximum flame temperature in oxygen is 2,828°C compared with 3,160°C for acetylene). It has a greater total heat of combustion than acetylene but the heat is generated mostly in the outer cone. Consequently, piercing is much slower but as the burning and slag formation are effected by the oxygen jet, cutting speeds are about the same as for acetylene.
Propane has a greater stoichiometric oxygen requirement than acetylene; for the maximum flame temperature in oxygen, the ratio of the volume of oxygen to fuel gas are 1.2 to 1 for acetylene and 4.3 to 1 for propane.

MAPP
MAPP gas is a mixture of various hydrocarbons, principally, methylacetylene and propadiene. It produces a relatively hot flame (2,976°C) with a high heat release in the primary flame (inner cone) (15,445kJ/m 3 ), less than for acetylene (18,890kJm 3 ) but much higher than for propane (10,433kJm 3 ). The secondary flame (outer cone) also gives off a high heat release, similar to propane and natural gas. The combination of a lower flame temperature, more distributed heat source and larger gas flows compared with acetylene results in a substantially slower pierce time.
As MAPP gas can be used at a higher pressure than acetylene, it can be used for underwater cutting in deep water as it is less likely to dissociate into its components of carbon and hydrogen which are explosive.

Propylene
Propylene is a liquid petroleum gas (LPG) product and has a similar flame temperature to MAPP (2896°C compared to 2,976°C for MAPP); it is hotter than propane, but not as hot as acetylene. It gives off a high heat release in the outer cone (72,000kJ/m 3 ) but, like propane, it has the disadvantage of having a high stoichiometric fuel gas requirement (oxygen to oxygen ratio of approximately 3.7 to 1 by volume).
Natural Gas
Natural gas has the lowest flame temperature similar to propane and the lowest total heat value of the commonly used fuel gases, eg for the inner flame 1,490kJ/m 3 compared with 18,890kJ/m 3 for acetylene. Consequently, natural gas is the slowest for piercing.


Bruce

[oksmle]

OMGB .... I've been annealing my rifle cases for about 20 years using the candle method. Difference is: I hold the case by the base with my fingers while rotating the shoulder & neck in the candle flame until the case is almost too hot to hold. Then I dip the neck in a tuna can of water & wipe the case off. Time is definitely longer than 10 seconds. I was complaining about the need to wipe the candle soot from the case to Mrs. oksmle the last time I was annealing & she brought out a small alcohol candle from her Girl Scout stuff for me to try. Soot is still there but no where near as much.

oksmle

[Wayne Smith]

Thanks for the information, it's interesting, but I'll stick with dipping them in the hot lead. It's easy, the lead is right there, and it doesn't take much time for the little that I anneal.

[dbldblu]

Thanks, I will have to give this a try. I already use candle wax for almost all of my sizing lube - works great, wipe off with paper towel. have been using the same candle for many years.

[Bent Ramrod]

If the lead pot method works, the candle method ought to work as well. You don't need much softening (if the brass is good) to eliminate neck splitting.

The old advice about heating cases red hot before quenching was pretty bad and probably caused as many ruined cases as not annealing at all. This method gave the brass a "dead anneal" which was where we wanted to be in 8th grade metal shop. Then our brass bowl was ready for another round of peening and planishing with hammers. But this annealed state is so soft that shoulders of cartridge cases can collapse and necks can pull out of shape over expander buttons.

[danski26]

Wouldn't "quenching" red hot brass harden it instead of soften?

[omgb]

It would with iron or steel but just the opposite happens with brass and copper. Wierd but true.

[guninhand]

FWIW, I believe it was on the old cb list that someone posted an alcohol flame was best for annealing because of the burn temperature, which I think was around 625 or 650 F. I promptly went to the dollar store and got an alcohol lamp and a bottle of fuel for a dollar each, and haven't used it since, so I can't report on effectiveness.

[drinks]

I have what is called a "Doping Lamp", a little burner using denatured alcohol to affix stones to dop sticks so they can be ground.
I shall have to try it in annealing, I have been using a propane torch and holding the case by the rim, then dipping the neck in water after the neck starts to turn color.

[HTRN]

Guy's, you do know that the brass has to reach a certain tmeperature for annealing to occur, right? If you can hold onto it with your bare fingers, it ain't nearly hot enough. The lead pot is one of the best methods as it's temp controlled.

I think the best method is a variation of the pan of water technique. fill a pan of water just below the shoulder. The idea is to heat it to the proper point, and tip the case over in the water. Now, cases can be overanealled, we want the necks softer, but not dead soft. The way this used to be done, was you'd polish the neck, and then look for a light blue color in the brass, but this is an iffy proposition.

There is a better way.

There called Temperature sensing crayons, they run about $10, from McMaster Carr. You want a 650F one. You swipe the case on the shoulder junction with the crayon(you don't want to be applying heat directly to the crayon mark as it will screw up the reading). When the the temp is reached, the crayon mark melts.

You'll get perfect results everytime.

I can't take credit for this idea, I read it in Ken Howell's "blue book".


HTRN

[felix]

Annealing starts at about 200 degrees F. But, it might take all day at that temp for a case neck to be "annealed". Olin uses the torch method and it looks like for a total of 5 seconds per case. The odds are good they'd be using the cheapest gas and that probably means natural gas? I'm regret for not having asked the question when I was there (job interview) back in the early 60's. ... felix

[montana_charlie]

Guy's, you do know that the brass has to reach a certain tmeperature for annealing to occur, right? If you can hold onto it with your bare fingers, it ain't nearly hot enough. The lead pot is one of the best methods as it's temp controlled.
I spin cases with one of those Lee case holders mounted in a (slow) drill, and heat the necks with a propane torch to that 'blue' color. I use this method because it seems to do OK, and is the only one of the 'easy methods' I have been able to make work.

The 'dipping in lead' method would interest me...if you could dip with the neck pointing up, and the base held below. As it is, holding the case by the base with the neck down in the lead means that heat is quickly traveling up into the base.
That portion of the case shold never be annealed...at all...and how can one know if the lead managed to do that?

I tried the 650° temp-stick (with a spinning case and torch), but I could never get it to make a visible mark on a cold case. The 'crayon' substance was just too hard.
Someday, I may try the temperature indicating liquid.

I read all of these 'annealing threads' because I believe annealing is important. But I am still looking for the perfect 'easy way'...one which does the job properly, and assures me it is not being overdone.
CM

[carpetman]

My method of case annealing is by far the easiest,safest and fastest. I don't do it. I never have and would bet very heavily I never do. Would also make a side bet with anyone that called that bet that they made a bad bet. Reason is very simple. I hope that the first sign of my brass being overworked is a split neck. When you have a split neck occur,you don't even know it happened. A case head separation can be an all nuther story. Why make effort to make the neck last longer and take the risk that the case head separates vs a simple split neck? Sorta like replacing an outboard motor sheer pin with a nail or some such or maybe the old penny behind the fuse trick,or installing a larger fuse. I know some brass is hard to come by and expensive. Thats like having a souped up engine---they drink more gas. If the brass is that rare,rechamber to something more common,or pay the price for having the "hot rod". Loss of limb eye etc aint worth a piece of brass. Besides all that,what "hot rod" does not have a standard counterpart that does the same thing? Why anneal?

[rvpilot76]

My method of case annealing is by far the easiest,safest and fastest. I don't do it. I never have and would bet very heavily I never do. Would also make a side bet with anyone that called that bet that they made a bad bet. Reason is very simple. I hope that the first sign of my brass being overworked is a split neck. When you have a split neck occur,you don't even know it happened. A case head separation can be an all nuther story. Why make effort to make the neck last longer and take the risk that the case head separates vs a simple split neck? Sorta like replacing an outboard motor sheer pin with a nail or some such or maybe the old penny behind the fuse trick,or installing a larger fuse. I know some brass is hard to come by and expensive. Thats like having a souped up engine---they drink more gas. If the brass is that rare,rechamber to something more common,or pay the price for having the "hot rod". Loss of limb eye etc aint worth a piece of brass. Besides all that,what "hot rod" does not have a standard counterpart that does the same thing? Why anneal?
Because by just neck sizing, the base doesn't get work hardened by the sizing die. Keeping the necks pliable is necessary when neck sizing, as the brass there gets worked by oversize chambers, even if only neck sizing. I love custom, minimal clearance chambers!

Kevin

[sjohnson]

Tempilaq is a liquid form of the temperature crayons.

It goes on like paint, dries matte and "gets wet" when you reach the listed temp.

It comes in a bottle with a built-in cap brush.

Not just for annealing brass, tempilaq is great for drawing a temper in steel if you're partially (like me) or fully color blind.

[trooperdan]

I.

The 'dipping in lead' method would interest me...if you could dip with the neck pointing up, and the base held below. As it is, holding the case by the base with the neck down in the lead means that heat is quickly traveling up into the base.
That portion of the case shold never be annealed...at all...and how can one know if the lead managed to do that?
CM


I can promise you that when you are holding the case head in your fingers it isn't going to get hot enought to anneal the head! :) You'll drop long before that happens! Just drop it into cold water to stop the heating quickly and bob's your Uncle!

[montana_charlie]

Tempilaq is a liquid form of the temperature crayons.

It goes on like paint, dries matte and "gets wet" when you reach the listed temp.

Does it wash off when you're done?
CM

[sjohnson]

Does it wash off when you're done?
CM
It falls off when quenching. The cases end up with the annealed look above the band, a different brass look where the band of tempilaq was, and normal brass below. I use 650f Tempilaq and keep the band of tempilaq paint about 1/8 inch below the shoulder to avoid annealing the body or head. I'm only annealing bottleneck cases at this time.

(edit) It was quick enough to take some pictures. The case, while not over-annealed, ended up more annealed than usual. I unsuccessfully tried to take a shot of the torch and "wet" tempilaq and ended up with a fuzzy picture and the case annealed a bit past the tempilaq band.

[Topper]

Great post with a lot of information.
Reloaders are a different breed, and each of us have our own goals and limits as to how much work we will put into the process to achieve satisfactory results.
I cannot recall the specific details, but I do know that there are different ratings for propane, some burn hotter than others.
Like others, I'm unsure of how successful my efforts of using the torch method has been. I have ruined a few cases in the process, even working in the dark to monitor color changes.
I finally resorted to using my lead pot several years back, and have not scraped a case. It's not the easiest method, but I know the temp is as consistent as I can currently achieve and it does evenly distribute the heat without spinning the case.
I will definitely be watching for updates to this topic. :coffee:
The candle method sounds much easier to use, low cost, and wiping off soot versus lead when it sticks to a case is a definite plus. :wink: