Two quick questions about scopes

[ghh3rd]

Two quick questions - re: scope for 45-70 rifle

Unable to decide between 10" eye "scout" relief, with low fixed magnif. (2.5x) mag, or variable power up to 7x maginif. but only 3.7" eye releif.

Purpose - fast acquisition for hunting, but want ability to shoot for groups at 100 yds.

-- Is 3.7" eye relief enough to keep from getting punched in the eye from hot 45-70 rounds?

-- Is fixed 2.5x enough to shoot for groups at 100 yds?

Thanks

[Larry Gibson]

ghh3rd

I shoot lots of groups at 100 yards with 1.5, 2, 2.5 and 3X scopes, pretty darn good groups at that. It's all about having a sufficiently viseable aiming point. I like to use a 4 or 6" square diamond and aim at the bottom point.

I've several scout scope setups and like them but if you want a variable with lots of eye relief take a look at Leupolds 1.5x5X. Plenty fast enough at 1.5X, even with both eyes open. At 5X there's penty enough for moa of deer, elk or bear at the 45-70s max practical range.

Larry Gibson

[crabo]

I think it all depends on your target. Sinclair makes a great red target. I shot this group at 100 yards, in complete darkness, using the light on my AR 15. The red made all the difference. Your crosshairs really stand out as you line up on the crossbars.

The targets are about $6.50 for 25 notebook size on heavy paper. I use them for certain things, but not for all because of the cost.

[madsenshooter]

I should get in the target printing business!

[winelover]

+1 on the Leo 1.5 X 5. I have one with the Lighted German post recticle, on my Marlin, and it has plenty of eye relief and I'm a "stock crawler".

Winelover

[btroj]

Just don't be stupid and that is plenty of eye releif.
I have a vx3 1.75 to 6 x and am very happy with it. But I am biased by hating the look of the "scout scope" thing.
With moderate loads eye relief is not a bif problem but as recoil increases just be careful and hold on to the darn rifle. Don't ask how I know.

[elk hunter]

ghh,

I have two scoped 45-70's, a Marlin 1895 with an older Weaver variable and a Siamese with a 3 x 9 Leupold. I've never had a problem, even off the bench, and I do shoot stout loads in both of them. I found that scopes give me the best of both worlds; I can see to shoot targets and I have a single sighting point when hunting, which makes for quick shooting.

The worst that can happen is you find you don't like a scope and you take it off.

[Doc Highwall]

I have a Leupold LPS 1.6x6x and Nikon Monarch Gold 1.5x6x scopes that have 4" of constant eye relief no matter what power they are on with a 64.7ft FOV @100yds. The Leupold VX3 1.75x5x has a little longer eye relief but a little smaller FOV@ 100 yds. Buy the Leupold and don't look back.

[XWrench3]

is 3.7" of eye relief enough clearance for HOT loads? NO! is a 2.5 power scope good enough to shoot for groups @ 100 yards? that depends. 1) how big of groups are you trying to shoot? and 2) how good are your eyes? if you have really good eyesight, you should be able to hold 2" groups with a 2.5 all day long. well, at least as long as your shoulder holds up. but, if your eyesight isnt so hot, you are going to need more power! i find my 2-7x32 is a decent compromise, but i do have to keep reminding myself to keep my eye back as far as possible from the scope. trust me, you will only forget twice! LOL!

[fourarmed]

You don't say what your rifle is. The 95 Marlin doesn't feel all that light until you try to keep it on a benchrest with loads that push an over-400 grain bullet above 1800. Believe me, 4" of eye relief is not enough.

[Thin Man]

The requirement of fast target acquisition does, in my experience, take the "scout scope" option off the table. These arrangements usually result in a much reduced field of view which is the opposite of your needs. Lower power scopes, fixed or adjustable magnification, mounted over the receiver, should give you the answer you need. As for eye relief versus recoil from "hot" loads, remember to be respectful of your rifle's recoil tendencies. It only takes getting kissed one time over the eyebrow to convince you to adjust your holding stance or modify the loads. Good luck with your project.

[Badgerloader]

ditto on the Leupold 1.5X5 - I've got one on a 8X57 and one on a 350 Rem Mag. Fast target acquisition, clear and durable ++++


ghh3rd

I shoot lots of groups at 100 yards with 1.5, 2, 2.5 and 3X scopes, pretty darn good groups at that. It's all about having a sufficiently viseable aiming point. I like to use a 4 or 6" square diamond and aim at the bottom point.

I've several scout scope setups and like them but if you want a variable with lots of eye relief take a look at Leupolds 1.5x5X. Plenty fast enough at 1.5X, even with both eyes open. At 5X there's penty enough for moa of deer, elk or bear at the 45-70s max practical range.

Larry Gibson

[Hurricane]

I have used both variable and fixed scopes and found out I usually had the scope on the lowest power if it was a variable scope. As a result my rifles, rimfire and centerfire, all wear Weaver K-2.5 fixed power scopes. Nothing to adjust, it always looks the same, and the power is never in the wrong place. I believe the Weaver 2.5 is no longer in production but 4 power scopes are still made by all the scope makers (and 2.5s are available as used scopes). Group size is not affected by the power of the sights as long as you have a target you can see. At 100 yards I use a target 6" to 8" in diameter and center the crosshairs in the sighting bullseye. On a clear sunny day I can use 3" bulls or square note pad paper taped to the target at 100 yards and 3" is always enought at 50 yards. As a side note, peep sights, 2.5 power, 4 power, and 20 power all shoot the same size group if you can center the sights on the target and properly pull the trigger. After all, the rifle and the barrel determine what the group will be, not the sights. For your purpose any quality low power fixed (2.5, 3 or 4 power) or a variable of about 1-5 power range or so should be perfect.

[Larry Gibson]

I have to disagree with a scout scope limiting the field of view. If mounted correctly and used correctly it has a large field of view than any other scope.

As to mounting the scout scope correctly most milsurp mounts are abominations that mount the scope entirely too high. The objective lens should be down as close to the front receiver ring as possible. There should not be any more than 3/16s clearance. The objective lens should also be back over on top of the front receiver ring not way out front over the barrel.

A proper scout scope should also be used. Most pistol scopes have entirely too much eye relief and many of them have critical eye relief. If a variable is used to shorten the eye relief then usually the magnification gets too large to be able to use the scope correctly as a scout scope should be used. A pistol scope mounted as a scout scope is not correct and the deficiencies of such cause undo criticism of the scout concept.

In the proper use of a correctly mounted scout scope both eyes are kept open. This gives a field of view that can not be beat by any regular scope where the aiming is only done with one eye. The field of view you have with both eyes is as good as it will get. With both eyes open the rifle is mounted to the shoulder and the scope is simply brought up into the line of sight when a proper stock weld is taken. With a properly mounted scout scope you should never have to search for the view through the scope, it should simply just be there. If a proper scout scope is not there you should do something about the mounting to make it correct.

A true scout set up used correctly is indeed as fast as any lower powered scopes but most often is faster in target acquisition because both eyes are open. The validity of this has been demonstrated many, many times over. We all have our likes and dislikes and that's ok but I have been a fan of low powered scopes for many years. I have numerous variables of 1X up through 5X and several 2.5 and 3X scopes. They all are fast and very good scopes. I do recommend them (I've already recommended the 1.5x5X Leupold in this thread). I also currently have 3 scout rifles with scout scopes on them and the more I use them the more I find they are the best set up for certain types of hunting. However, I do not find them as all around rifles as many claim.

With certain uses some rifles perform better with a regular scope, conversely in other applications the true scout scoped rifle performs better. When my eyes were good I always favored a good receiver sight and a post front sight for hunting under 200 yards (I could shoot quite well past 200 yards but used a rifle with a scope if shooting farther than that was a possibility. As my eyes went south I began more and more to mount low powered scopes on my rifles. After having used a true scout set up rifle I am mostly using those on my short range rifles. I have a Burris 1.5X scout scope that I’ve put on my M94 Carbine, a M1A Scout rifle and on my FR8 scout rifle. All of those rifles also have aperture rear sights. I am very good (used to be anyway) with aperture rear sights BTW. I have not found any other sighting system faster and more accurate for close range shooting, even at night, than that Burris 1.5X scout scope when properly mounted. The only sighting system as fast is the EOTech mounted as a scout sight on my AR.

A correctly mounted and used scout scope has to be, literally, seen to be believed. Photo is of the FR8 Scout showing the proper mounting of a scout scope.

Larry Gibson

[madsenshooter]

I've seen a Krag equipped with an M14 flash suppressor like you've pictured Larry. Almost looks like it belongs there. Here's a pic of my Krag with a scout type scope, 2-7 variable. The scope is cheap enough to be disposable, but the eye relief is right. I don't see a whole lot of sense in the scout concept on a lever gun that's already drilled and tapped. I use a Weaver K4, or a Norman Ford Texan mounted with Lyman Tru-Lock rings on my 336 in 35 Rem. A quarter is all that's needed to remove the rings to use the irons. The 35 Rem is not a big recoiling rifle like the thread starter has, perhaps if I had one of those, then I'd see the sense of it. The only reason I have one on my Krag is to avoid drilling and tapping the 115yr old receiver.

[Larry Gibson]

madsenshooter

I put the M14 flash suppressor on the FR8 for 2 reasons; 1st it supresses the flash very well from the shorter barrel rifle, 2nd reason is it holds the M14 front sight, which I prefer, at just he right heigth for optimum use with the Lymn SMJ rear sight. I don't disagree with you in regards to mounting on a lever rifle already D&T'd. My M94AE has a regular Weaver 2.5X on it but my M94 Carbine is set up for the Burris scout scope. Note also that my recommendation to the OP was a Leupold 1.5x5X regular scope if he went that route and not the scout scope. However, he wouldn't do bad at all, probably just as good if not better, with the Leupold scout scope on that rifle if that's what he wants. That's the nice thing about our country so far; the choices we can make:-)

Larry Gibson

[madsenshooter]

Used to be able to get those M14 flash suppressors for next to nothing, I see there's quite a competition for them now on the auction sites. I wouldn't mind having one for a cutoff Krag that I have. The old Weaver K4 I have on my 1955 made 336 appears to have close to 5" of eye relief. If that isn't enough, you're not holding the gun right, or it's shoulder fired artillery. Now, concerning your observations about keeping both eyes open, I gave that a try with my Krag with the scope turned down to 2 power, and the ocular bell is in my left eye's field of vision, so with my particular set up, there's not much of a gain in the field of view vs shooting with one eye. Perhaps if I was shooting at something in motion to my left I'd gain a bit. Could be the weld I get to the stock too, some tend to be squarer set when shooting than a slim fellow like me is. Like you say, choices.

[Larry Gibson]

madsenshooter

Too bad we're not closer together as you'd see a real difference with an actual scout scope. I have tried pistol scopes and there is a difference even if the eye relief is the same. Photo is of my 6.5 Swede scout with the 2X Leupold and "Evita" my M91 Argie with the 3X Burris. The 3X is about max for a scout scope. The M94AE has the 2.5 Weaver on it and it is also a good set up as we have discussed.

Larry Gibson

[ghh3rd]

Thanks everyone

[Four Fingers of Death]

I reckon a 2-7 Leupold Vari X11 or if you can afford it the 1.5-5 with the illuminated German reticle.

A lot of people swear by those scout scopes. I reckon they look like sin. I will have to buy one and try it out and see what the fuss is about.

[Snapping Twig]

Just put one on my guide gun. Leupold FX II 2.5,

Had a Leupold 2x pistol scope on it to start and it's true, a real scout scope is a thing of wonder, totally different than a pistol scope pressed into service.

I have the optical bell a full 9" forward of my eye and it's PERFECT! Put the rifle into my shoulder, sight with both eyes and the crosshairs are right on the target.