More on slow powders & heavy bullets

[Mr Humble]

Last fall I started experimenting with very slow powders and heavy bullets in the 30-06s to duplicate the classic 30-40 Krag load (220 gr bullet @ 1900.)
My previous experiments with fast burners w/fillers or medium burners got the fps but accuracy was poor.

Using the shown NEI driving band gas check with SPG, sized to 308 weighing 209 gr. ahead of 55.5 gr of H869 and CCI MAGNUM primers (required!), results show promise. Shot in a bone stock 1953 Husky sporter with a Kahles 4-18x50 yielded the following:

The bullet:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z231/leadloader/DSCN2785.jpg


Group 1, 5 shots at 50 yards in good conditions.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z231/leadloader/DSCN3371.jpg

Group 2, 10 shots at 100 yards shot quickly as mirage was coming up. Tightest 5 were first 5, by the time done barrel was too hot to touch.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z231/leadloader/DSCN3369.jpg

Group 3, 5 shots 50 yards with bullets shot as cast (.311) lubed with Lee liquid lube.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z231/leadloader/DSCN3370.jpg

I should note that the Husky is a 3 shot 1" rifle with jacketed bullets @100.
I want to try this load in my BOSS equipped Model 70 as it is a 5 shot one holer with almost any jacketed bullet load when properly tuned.

[excess650]

try 29gr H322 RP 9-1/2 primers and seat the bullet out to engage the rifling...no filler and no crimp, but raise the muzzle to position the powder

[RayinNH]

Mr. Humble is that a compressed load and do you have much unburned powder in the bore?

[Dutch4122]

Another powder to try in cases such as 30-06 or similar capacity is IMR-7828. I have just started working with this powder in the 7.62x54r with a custom fat 238 grn GC boolit. Initial accuracy is very good (equal to or better than Military Surplus) @ 100 yards with lightly compressed loads. Bore is clean & shiney with very little "dust" left in the bore from the powder. Velocity seems to be well up above 2,000 fps. Will be chronographing this load soon. One more design change to the boolit and then the real testing begins once I cast up a pile of the Mk II version of this new slug.

[felix]

7828 long cut is extremely temperature sensitive with the 243W condom loads at 55K cup or thereabouts. Might not be at a lower peak pressure, i.e., faster expansion ratio. Please report back, after checking throughly with boolits, Matt. ... felix

[Dutch4122]

7828 long cut is extremely temperature sensitive with the 243W condom loads at 55K cup or thereabouts. Might not be at a lower peak pressure, i.e., faster expansion ratio. Please report back, after checking throughly with boolits, Matt. ... felix

Will do Felix. I have a partial can of 7828 long cut left and 2 pounds of the 7828 short cut to go with next.

[Mr Humble]

Re: 332, the objective was not to use a powder I had to use fillers or elevate the muzzle. This is to be a hunting load.
Yes the 869 leaves some partially burned powder behind but, of course, the air pressure from the next shot blows it out of the way.
7828 is quite a bit faster than 869 and would not allow a lightly compressed load which IMO is essential to good consistent ignition with Magnum primers. It also meters through a measure no where as well as the very small 869 ball.
If it Chronies at 1800 or more it is plenty accurate as is to take any deer sized game within 200 yards.

[GabbyM]

Widener's has WC 867 and WC 872 for $49 per 8lbs.
Is this similar to 869?

[RayinNH]

Gabby it's a 50 BMG powder, so it should be. I believe it was Buckshot that described these powders as having a burn rate similar to wet paper bags...Ray

[Doc Highwall]

Mr Humble, have you slugged your barrel, .308" diameter cast bullets seem just a little small for a 30/06 as most people here shoot a bullet that is .001" to .002" larger then the slugged groove size.

[madsenshooter]

Re: 332, the objective was not to use a powder I had to use fillers or elevate the muzzle. This is to be a hunting load.
Yes the 869 leaves some partially burned powder behind but, of course, the air pressure from the next shot blows it out of the way.
7828 is quite a bit faster than 869 and would not allow a lightly compressed load which IMO is essential to good consistent ignition with Magnum primers. It also meters through a measure no where as well as the very small 869 ball.
If it Chronies at 1800 or more it is plenty accurate as is to take any deer sized game within 200 yards.

Oh, I don't think a compressed load is essential for consistent ignition with magnum primers. Case in point, 20gr Blue Dot behind the Eagan MX3-30-AR in my Krag. WLRM primers. Chrongraphed a string of 10 just the other day, wrote it down, now I can't find it, but the SD was 5! I think the pressure wave from the magnum primer pushes the flakes up to the front of the case before ignition really occurs and it burns very consistently there. I emailed Seafire about it and he's done some testing using Fed magnum primers with BD, and confirms an increase in accuracy vs standard primers. Now a lot of folks have told me that BD is position sensitive, what position is it going to be in when it has 2500psi behind it? I think a flattened ball powder would do the same thing. For some insights into what happens inside a cartridge case after the primer pops go here: http://www.superiorballistics.com/superior_ballistics_inc_web_site_003.htm And read the primer penetration theory and testing.

[Mr Humble]

IMO each rifle has likes and dislikes on bullet diameter. The alloy mix is also a big factor.
This rifle likes bullets sized to 308 and does not like .311. A Husky of this vintage has a precise cut rifled barrel which is far from the norm today and the alloy is the standard Lyman rifle mix, softer than linotype. The NEI is also DD design with a front driving band that test have proven are more accurate than the same bullet w/o the DD. It appears the DD stabilizes the bullet in the bore allowing the use of bore diameter bullets rather than having to squeeze down a fat bullet to fit and fill the bore.
On Magnum primers, my point was that H869 is unreliable, especially in cold weather with anything except a Magnum primers. I have read they also help with reduced loads of fast burners (4198, Unique etc) if fillers are not used.
As a point of interest, the most accurate 308 load with jacketed bullets by the boys at Handloader magazine (to duplicate Federal GMM) used Bergers, Varget and CCI 250s (magnums).
When time allows (getting ready for Antelope season now with my 45 caliber percussion Whitworth replica , 525 gr bullet, 90 gr FFg, does 2" @100 with hunting sight and old eyes), I want to try the same combination (with more powder) in my 721 300 H&H and Ballard Highwall in 300 Flanged. They too have precise cut rifled barrels with the same 1 in 10 twist.

[madsenshooter]

If I continue using Blue Dot in my Krag, it appears I'm going to need one of those DD bullets pretty soon. The throat on the original Krag barrel is going fast with the temp produced by Blue Dot's 20% nitroglycerin! I'm glad the CMP has new barrels! What's the diameter of the DD band? My Krag might like the bullet.

[Mr Humble]

NEI will make the bullet as you wish within reason. I had the same bullet in a mold made for a Krag
that had 313 driving bands, 310 nose and 316 DD. Gun had a fine bore but a 308 jacketed bullet could be pushed through with a bit of oil on it ..... LOOSE!

Shot 2 MOA with the cast bullet, "side of barn" MOA w/jacketed.

[madsenshooter]

I see. I had some fun with the Krag just yesterday shooting the NOE 311284 over a caseful of WC860. If I remember correctly, I only had Rem 9 1/2M primers at the time I loaded them. Actually, it was 303 Brit cases I'd sized down and hadn't fireformed to the Krag chamber yet. Velocity was 1807fps, SD of 21. It was fairly accurate out of a 98 with lopped off forearm that I just bought. Quite a few of the bullets touching at 100 yards, about a 2" group overall. It had a .070 thick piece of brass stock about the size of a postage stamp as a front sight, just trimmed that down to regular sight blade height today. Anyway, that heavy bullet really made the steel plates we have hanging from chains dance around! I've no doubt, any deer hit with that boolit is going down. Got to cook up some more of that load now that I have all the 303 brass fireformed, I'll use the WLRM next time.