Analyze target II

[chris in va]

Thought I'd start a new thread so it wouldn't get lost in the first one.

Here's my new targets, shot by someone else that supposedly would do better than me at 7 yards. Yes, it was rested.

Sig 220 and EAA Witness
Lee TL 230gr
4.3 and 5.0 Bullseye, towel and water dropped (made no difference)

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/8737/p1000171.jpg (http://img802.imageshack.us/i/p1000171.jpg/)

As you can see, many are keyholing. Guess I'll have to ditch the TL mold and get one I have to size like I did with the 9mm. Any suggestions with the Sig?

Oh and here's a pic of the barrel after about 30 rounds.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8594/p1000177q.jpg (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/p1000177q.jpg/)

[geargnasher]

Hey, I thought you knew you bought a tumble boolit mould, it's doing just what it's supposed to! :kidding:

Assuming your'e still shooting the .45 acp, try five grains of Universal before you give up on that boolit.

Gear

[JCherry]

Try focusing more on the front sight?

Have Fun,

JCherry

[chris in va]

Hey, I thought you knew you bought a tumble boolit mould, it's doing just what it's supposed to!

That sir, is the best response I've seen in a while.:drinks:

[jimmeyjack]

something you are doing isn't right. your first target had no key holing with 4.2 be.

[chris in va]

our first target had no key holing with 4.2 be.

That was strictly with the Witness.

[geargnasher]

OHHHHHH! The picture of the barrel you added explains it all! Get yourself a real boolit mould with a real lube groove, and use some real lube. I'll be more than glad to ship you a couple dozen known good boolits with known good lube on them for you to try, then you can decide for yourself the next step. Some guns and load combinations just won't work with LLA., and I have two .45s that do just what yours did with LLA no matter what the boolit style or powder used.

PM if you're interested.

Gear

[redneckdan]

Either you have a drunken fly infestation in your range or your pocket rocket doesn't like tumble lube.

Before you ditch the lee mold try mixing 50/50 alox with JPW. Heat it up and tumble lube like normal. Sometimes this works better.

[helg]

Keyholing may come from low muzzle speed, and understabilized bullet. Based on your load, this is not the case. Anyway, there is no leading in this case.

It may come from a high pressure under a soft bullet that does not hold in grooves. The leading in this case will be like you have posted. Assuming that your bullets are from clip-ons, then in low-pressured 45acp this should not be the case. You do not use pure lead for your bullets, do you?

The last option is a small bullet into a large bore. I would suggest to slug your bore and ensure that your bullet is .001" over the bore diameter.

[chris in va]

I'll get some Johnson's Paste Wax next time I hit the hardware store.


You do not use pure lead for your bullets, do you?

No it's regular wheelweights. I'll slug the bore again, but last time I did it everyone came down on me for using a digital caliper as it "won't be accurate enough" to measure the slug. I'm not made of money and really can't afford to keep buying all this equipment.

[Cherokee]

Chris - are you shooting the bullets as cast with the LLA or are you sizing them. You might try them as cast and see how that works. I don't like the idea of the TL bullets, I tried something like that many years ago and it ended up looking like your bore. However, some of the members here have good results. Don't let folks bother you, if you measure the slug at .452 and size to .453, measured with the same instrument, you will be close IMO.

[chris in va]

Ok guys, think I figured things out.

Slugged my bore twice, widest I could find was .451. The boolits before loading measure .452, but when I pulled one it was only .450, and much of it was .448. I slugged that particular boolit and half the boolit surface area didn't even touch the lands (grooves?).

So bottom line I need to either fatten the mold up or sell and get one I can size to .453 like I did with my 9mm. Joy.

[runfiverun]

aha look at lee-menting.
look at your die set-up, if you are using any type of taper crimp or lee fcd thing stop for a bit.
if a taper to iron out a flair do just that and no more.
your sizer may also be the culprit just back track to where the problem is and 452 should work fine.
try a 45 colt sizer maybe if your not sure, thats what fixed my auto rim brass problem.

[geargnasher]

You say they start out at .452", but when you seat them and pull them again they are .450"?

You need a new die set. Your expander ball should mic to a minimum of .451" if you plan on shooting cast, otherwise it will swage the boolits down way undersized. You're not using a Lee Factory Crimp die, are you? That could be post-sizing the case and boolit together which would yield the same results with undersized pulled boolits.

Gear

[HeavyMetal]

Sounds like your case is sizing the boolit when it is seated!

Suggest you pull your expander plug from the die set and "Mike" it. Calipers will be just fine for this and any other basic relading chre.

Most. if not all, die sets ( with the exception of the dies made for Cowboy shooting) are manufactured for Jacketed bullets.

Expander plugs usually reflect a diameter about .004 smaller than normal for a jacketed round. This is much to tight for lead boolits. The fact that you seated a .452 and then pulled it and got .448 shows my point to be true.

Contact your die maker and explain the need to shoot lead and ask for a new expander plug .450 diameter This should take the leading away because the bullets will stay .452 after seating.

A fella pointed out not to use a Lee Factory Crimp die if you have one.

I think this is a good idea at least for the time being.

Once the leading goes away and accuracy comes back then you can play with dies like the Lee FCD die. the Lee FCD die may have to tight a carbide insert in it and this could also be sizing your boolits down when you use the die to crimp your loads.

[chris in va]

No FCD, just slight taper to remove the bell, plus a hair more for better feeding. I already did the Lee-menting thing so the boolits would drop out easier, but didn't try to make them any fatter.

[HeavyMetal]

Fatter won't help if the expander plug isn't expanding the case enough to load them properly.

That means keeping the case from "shaving" the boolit to a smaller diameter as the boolit is seated. no need for a sharp edge here the brass case is stronger than the lead alloy and is actually working like a swaging die!

Are you getting a "ring" of lead around the case mouth after seating a boolit?

If so there's your proof of a to small expander plug.

[mnzrxer]

The pictures aren't loading on my dial up so I'll post some info based on the above text.

I'm pretty sure you found the problem when you found your pulled boolit was undersized. I shoot lots of the Lee 230gr TL boolit with 4.5gr of Titegroup in my Sig P245, a Rock Island 1911 and have shot it in a Sig 220. This load has been plenty accurate in all of my 45s.

Besides the dies another factor that can cause "post" sizing is the brass. Some brands of brass are thicker than others and can swage the boolit down more when run through the Lee FCD. Also, the Lee expander plug really just flares the case mouth, it does very little expanding below the mouth and the boolit can get squeezed some even without the FCD.

Are you using mixed brass? If so, sort out thin walled from thicker walled prior to loading and see if the accuracy follows the brass.

By the way I am using a full Lee 4 die set. The Sig doesn't need the post sizing FCD since it will eat anything, but the 1911 is a little more picky. I do get a very little bit of leading in front of the chamber, but it doesn't continue to build up as I shoot and is easily removed.

[RobS]

I assume you are using WW alloy as you stated "air cooled or water dropped". Having a water dropped bullet that is aged 24 hours will be hard as nails and definitely not swage down by the case; the dies could still swage the bullet but assured not the case. Air cooled can swage down even after a weeks time. Age hardening is something you never described with this thread and could very well be the cause of your small diameter issues. I would wait a minimum of 12 hours before loading a water quenched bullet and 1 to 2 weeks for air cooled.

You are not using the Lee FCD so elimination of this die is taken in consideration however it would be good to see if the seating die is an issue. Simply seat the bullet without crimping and then pull a bullet to check diameter. Assuming you are good with seating the bullet then move to crimping and with just enough to take the bell out of the case. If you want to measure the crimp then .470-.472 at the mouth of the brass is a general crimp diameter for the 45 auto.

[Doby45]

I have never seen an "expander plug" for a straight wall handgun round like you guys are implying. "Expander plug" like the kind on a bottle neck rifle cartridge just ain't there on a 45ACP die set. If anything you need to open up your sizing die a little if you have steel and if you have a carbide sizer you would prolly have to have it opened up a bit on a lathe. The sizer die is probably squeezing your brass down to a point of it being too tight. Once again you prolly need a "mic" for a proper measurement but you can try to see what the internal diameter of you case is after it has been sized.

[geargnasher]

I have never seen an "expander plug" for a straight wall handgun round like you guys are implying. "Expander plug" like the kind on a bottle neck rifle cartridge just ain't there on a 45ACP die set. If anything you need to open up your sizing die a little if you have steel and if you have a carbide sizer you would prolly have to have it opened up a bit on a lathe. The sizer die is probably squeezing your brass down to a point of it being too tight. Once again you prolly need a "mic" for a proper measurement but you can try to see what the internal diameter of you case is after it has been sized.

I sure hope I misunderstand you, Doby, cuz you don't make sense to me.

What dies are you using? ALL the straight-walled pistol dies I have ever seen have an expander plug, stem, ball, whatever you want to call it and it had better be the right size if you want the correct cast tension when you seat the boolit/bullet. It's that little plug (hollow on the Lee "powder-thu-expander" dies) that is in the "expander" die which also has the tapered shoulder that makes the bellmouth on the case. RCBS die sets have an expander ball with a threaded stem that screws into the die from the bottom and pokes out the top so it can be adjusted or changed.

Also, if you're relying on the sizer die to make your case tension, you're screwed because if there is one cartridge that has more variances in alloy, anneal, mouth thickness, etc. it is the .45 ACP. You need the proper expander to make case tension as consistent as possible.

Gear

[RobS]

I have never seen an "expander plug" for a straight wall handgun round like you guys are implying. "Expander plug" like the kind on a bottle neck rifle cartridge just ain't there on a 45ACP die set. If anything you need to open up your sizing die a little if you have steel and if you have a carbide sizer you would prolly have to have it opened up a bit on a lathe. The sizer die is probably squeezing your brass down to a point of it being too tight. Once again you prolly need a "mic" for a proper measurement but you can try to see what the internal diameter of you case is after it has been sized.



Look at the Lyman M-die series however they are even a bit too small for some being .450 and the second step or neck at .454.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

Also people here such as Buckshot makes these dies and RCBS makes them too. I believe RCBS will also send a person a custom one as a forum member here had them send him a .451 if my memory serves me right.

[mnzrxer]

The Lee "expander" in all of my dies is tapered. It does not expand to a single diameter for the full length of the bullet. In fact I doubt it even reaches into the case as far as the bullet base will. It wouldn't be hard to make, or have made, a more properly sized plug for the Lee dies but I have never had issues with it.

[geargnasher]

The Lee "expander" in all of my dies is tapered. It does not expand to a single diameter for the full length of the bullet. In fact I doubt it even reaches into the case as far as the bullet base will. It wouldn't be hard to make, or have made, a more properly sized plug for the Lee dies but I have never had issues with it.

You'll also find that it isn't big enough, in most cases, to work well with cast. I've made or had made replacements for most of my Lee dies to use with cast, some with different expanding lengths for heavier boolits or boolits that needed to be seated deeper in the case (like 325 grainers in the .45 Colt case).

Gear

[Echo]

Re the calipers. Well, Yes, in very precise settings, micrometers are preferred, but in our stuff, reasonable calipers will be reliable enough to be of value. Reliability is the factor that lets the device give the same value when measuring the object several times. I really don't think we need to be terribly concerned with accuracy down to the tenth - what we really need is a reliable device that, when we measure the slug, and then the boolit, the difference will be usable, whether it is accurate or not. Does it really make any difference if the actual groove diameter is .4518, and we get a measurement of .452 for the boolit and a measure of .453 for the slug? If these were the measurements, we would be getting leading, and that tells us more about the size relationship than does the measurements taken with the imperfect measurement tool.

I have mikes available, but use a dial caliper almost exclusively.

[NSP64]

Chris, I think you figured it out. The case is sizing your boolits down. Sometimes you have to play with the dies to get the right combination for your gun. My 40 S&W is like that. I also am useing a TL mold. When the boolits were loaded, the ctg had an hour glass shape. Wide at the top, narrower in the middle, then wide at the base. Check the case thickness also. Different mfg vary thickness. Size some then measure the case mouth opening. My 44 carbide sizer from RCBS was making the cases too small for cast. Make sure there is enough tension on the boolit, so it won't push deeper in the case.

[Doby45]

I think we have some mass confusion here on the reloading aspect of this conversation. The confusion is mainly in the nomenclature and the working of dies. The "expanding die/belling die" does nothing more than gently flair the mouth of a piece of brass to more readily accept the bullet of choice. It does NOT add any neck tension to hold the bullet. Every single bit of sizing occurs in the "sizing" die with exception to possible post sizing in the FCD that people talk about, but that is really only in the case of cast as far as I have seen.

An "expanding plug" is on the depriming stem in the sizing die of bottle neck cartridges. This is used the reopen the mouth of a piece of brass AFTER it has been squeezed down to a smaller than needed diameter at the top of the sizing die. The actual sizing with the "expander plug" occurs while the piece of brass is on its way out of the die.

To further explain my case, I can make a complete round of 45ACP ammo using nothing more than the sizing die and the bullet seating die. Now of course this is with FMJ and not cast. Cast WOULD require a small bell at the mouth of the cases in order to prevent shaving the boolit. But with a FMJ it simply seats itself and has full and complete neck tension.

As another poster posted the expanding die insert is nothing more than a slight taper that is adjusted by the user for the correct amount of bell in the mouth of the case. Also, with it being adjustable there would be no need to have one "modified". If you have too much taper just adjust it out and you will have less, if you have too little adjust it in some and you will have more.

The only part I have ever seen that has been "adjusted" with sandpaper or whatever else to make more neck tension is the expander ball on the depriming rod so that as the brass is being pulled out it does not open the case neck as much.

I think that should better explain it and if not I will resort to pictures.

EDIT: In doing a little more research it would appear that the Lyman M die that has been mentioned will do some resizing of the brass in the belling stage as it has two steps, but once again even in that scenerio it is removing neck/case tension not adding any. Prior to doing that I would see if I could get the standard sizing die opened up a little bit, therefore not sizing the brass down as far to start with. There are also differences in manufacturers, my Lee 45ACP sizing die sizes the brass smaller than my Hornady 45ACP sizing die does. I have not measured it exactly but I can size with the Hornady and it will barely hold a FMJ bullet. Then I can size a piece of brass with the Lee and it is held very tight. Same headstamp of brass so no apples and oranges. While the Hornady not sizing down enough for me in dealing with FMJ was a pain, it could be an absolute blessing when it comes to the boolits. I will have to do some actual measurements.

[cajun shooter]

There is also some bad talk about the LEE FCD die. If you use one and dont want or need the final sizing then you can remove the carbide ring at the base of the die and just use the collets for the crimp. Are you doing a four stage loading process? If not I would also change and start with the crimp being the final stage with bullet seating at #3.

[Echo]

OK - So, a quick experiment. I resized a GI .38 Special case, then expanded & belled. Resized diameter 1/4" below neck was .374 - expanded diameter, same point, was .375.

The did the same, with same dies, with a .357 Mag case. Resized diameter was .375 - expanded (same die as w/.38, just not shoved in all the way) - .377.

GI brass is well-known to be thicker than commercial, explaining the difference in expansion - the GI brass sprung back more than the commercial Maggie.

So. The expanding function effects the neck tension. It doesn't increase the tension, but does adjust it.

I know, small sample &cetera, but it demonstrates the fact that (with most die sets) expanding means expanding...

[RobS]

EDIT: In doing a little more research it would appear that the Lyman M die that has been mentioned will do some resizing of the brass in the belling stage as it has two steps, but once again even in that scenerio it is removing neck/case tension not adding any. Prior to doing that I would see if I could get the standard sizing die opened up a little bit, therefore not sizing the brass down as far to start with. There are also differences in manufacturers, my Lee 45ACP sizing die sizes the brass smaller than my Hornady 45ACP sizing die does. I have not measured it exactly but I can size with the Hornady and it will barely hold a FMJ bullet. Then I can size a piece of brass with the Lee and it is held very tight. Same headstamp of brass so no apples and oranges. While the Hornady not sizing down enough for me in dealing with FMJ was a pain, it could be an absolute blessing when it comes to the boolits. I will have to do some actual measurements.

Exactly.............that is why it's called an expander plug. Expander as defined: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expander

This has been discussed before in that the case tension can be too great for the BHN of a boolit so it swages it down, individuals have come to understand this. Yes, you are correct that you could get yourself a sizing die that is larger such as the RCBS cowboy dies for revolver/rifle rounds. These dies are designed for cast boolits in mind i.e. larger diameters. You could try to hone a sizing die out however since we are talking about a carbide sizing die then good luck as there are very few abrasives hard enough to hone one out.

Here is another place to find expander dies that a person can have custom made to their desired diameter/lengths. Regarding this situation, look to the left and click into reloading dies. Then click into M-type expander plug and it will describe and show a picture of what such a die looks like. There are also the M-type expander plugs that are tapered as well. This is a good site for custom made reloading tools.

http://www.ch4d.com/

Have all your ducks in a row before you go after it and things will make more sense.

[mdi]

Ok guys, think I figured things out.

Slugged my bore twice, widest I could find was .451. The boolits before loading measure .452, but when I pulled one it was only .450, and much of it was .448. I slugged that particular boolit and half the boolit surface area didn't even touch the lands (grooves?).

So bottom line I need to either fatten the mold up or sell and get one I can size to .453 like I did with my 9mm. Joy.

There ya go. You need larger boolits. You can try varing the alloy, as some cast larger than others (My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is out in the shed, aka reloading lab, and all that info is stated in there in charts.). Also, I tossed my Lee Factory Crimp Die, 'cause it sized the case/bullet down about .002" more than I wanted it to.

[Down South]

I have never seen an "expander plug" for a straight wall handgun round like you guys are implying.

Depends on the setup. If he is using a single stage and a three die setup, One of the dies is an expander die. If he is using a Dillon Progressive or like, there is an expander on the powder funnel.

[MtGun44]

All straight case loading setups have an expander plug which does two things. First, it
opens up the case inside diameter to provide a good grip on a normal diameter bullet.
Second, at the end of the expander section it flares out and will add a small flare to the
case if you choose (and I always do) to set it that way.

I think with such a tiny amount of the TL boolit actually full diameter because of the
little ripples, it is much easier to either shear off the tops of the little ripples (if there is
too little flare - try some more first thing) or just iron them out if the expander is too
small.

Start with adding more flare to the case and see if this keeps from shearing a touch
off the top of the little ripples.

And ulimately - I still don't like TL and you will be much better off with a conventional
design like an H&G 68 clone or 452460 and a real lube.

Bill

[chris in va]

I went ahead and ordered the Lee 452-228-1r mold. Hopefully it will drop at around 453 so I don't have to get a sizing die. I'll switch to using the JPW and see if that improves things.

[geargnasher]

Why is this so hard for everyone to understand???

CHRIS: You do NOT need a fatter boolit, and it WILL NOT RELIABLY SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS. Trying to expand the case with the boolit only works with jacketed, you need a bigger expander ball in your expander die. It doesn't matter how small the sizer die is, if the expander is correct it will make the case mouth large enough to not swage down your soft lead boolits.

DOBY: I never said the expander adds case tension, I said it's job is to expand the case "neck" area where the boolit will be seated (and bell also) to the required 1-1/2 to one thousandth under boolit diameter, Both sets of my .45 ACP dies size so the ID of the case neck is about .447", and the expander makes them only about .448-9" or so depending on headstamp, so I need a .451" expander to make them .4505-.4508" or so SO THEY WON'T MAKE MY BOOLITS .450 WHEN THEY ARE SEATED. Most expanders are made for Jackete bullet dimesions, which are ususally .001-2" under cast sizes, plus the manufacturers don't care exactly what size the expander is because the normal copper bullets will force their way into the case without getting any smaller.

MTGun: I second the motion on the TL boolits, but I've shot many of them in the .45 acp with conventional lube and they worked just fine, in fact VERY well, but when I tried tumble lube on them my barrels looked just like the picture Chris put up in his first post. Difference was I was using a .451" expander ball as I described above that left my cases belled and .4508" to the base of where I seated the boolits. I think Chris' dies expander is the whole problem.

Gear

[Doby45]

Could someone do me a favor and post a picture of this "expander ball" on a set of Lee 45ACP dies. Cause mine is missing on both my Lee and Hornady set. Now I do have the belling insert in my powder through die. But all it does it bell the mouth of the brass.

[Doby45]

Have all your ducks in a row before you go after it and things will make more sense.

And what exactly is meant by that remark and is it necessary to this conversation?

[Doby45]

All straight case loading setups have an expander plug which does two things. First, it
opens up the case inside diameter to provide a good grip on a normal diameter bullet.
Second, at the end of the expander section it flares out and will add a small flare to the
case if you choose (and I always do) to set it that way.

That is absolutely and positively wrong. You may have a special set of dies that does this, namely the M dies from Lyman but to make the claim ALL die sets do is wrong. Hornady and Lee do not for a fact.

The following is from the Hornady 45ACP die instructions.


ADJUSTING THE EXPANDER DIE
(Three-die sets only)
The expander assembly is designed to put a slight “bell” or flare
on the case mouth. For uniform flaring, trim all case to their
proper length.
To adjust the expander die body, raise the
press ram to its full height with a case in
the shell holder. Thread the expander die
into the press until the expander touches
the case mouth. Raise the handle and screw
down the die in small increments (each time
inspecting the mouth) until the mouth of the
case has been flared just enough to seat a
bullet. Tighten the die body lock ring and set screw. Keep in
mind that an excessive flare can eventually shorten case life,
and may keep the case from properly entering the seating die.

Those instructions do not imply in anyway that the expander die is used to resize the brass to better hold a bullet. It is ONLY for belling the mouth of the brass enough to not cause the mouth of the case to shave the boolit. PERIOD.

The picture below comes directly from the Hornady die set as well. I think the important stuff is highlighted in yellow.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2czvtc7.jpg

I will post more on this when I get home and can do pictures because it evidently is needed. Cast boolit masters you may be but the reloading aspect seems a bit shaky, at best.

[geargnasher]

Doby, the fact that the Lee PTE plug is tapered and not big enough is sort of the whole problem here. It isn't what it needs to be to work with .452", 10-15bhn cast.

I don't know about Hornady dies, but I expect the same issue. Now go check another caliber by resizing your brass, then expanding until you get a bellmouth. Measure the OD of the case 1/4" below the case mouth after sizing and again after expanding. On every single pistol die set I have except the Lee 10mm/.40 and .45 ACP the expander plug enlarges the whole neck at least some after sizing, but often it isn't enough to prevent boolit swaging. I like to leave my sizers as they are with carbide sizers and expand the "neck" to the correct size, even if the sizers make the cases smaller than neccesary. In the .45 ACP and .40 I like there to be a step, as I have mentioned above, where the case walls are NOT expanded above sized diameter just exactly at the point where the boolit base will be seated, this works like a case cannelure (sp) to keep the boolit from seating deeper under recoil in the magazine.

An exception to sizing the case too small is with segregated brass in .44 mag and .45 Colt, where I only "neck" size the brass to keep from overworking it, especially in a loose chamber like most .45 Colts have. But those are REVOLVERS, and the boolits tend to get forced the other way during recoil, so they need a real roll crimp to keep the boolits in the cases, whereas an automatic only needs case tension, or possibly a cannelure or step made by the sizer and expander working together.

Gear

[mpmarty]

Doby you're mistaken. I've been reloading 45acp since 1965 and have no less than four sets of dies for it. RCBS, C&H, LEE and Redding. Each and every one of them has an expander / bell mouth insert in the second die. These are all three or four die sets. #1 is a sizer / decapper. #2 is the expander / bell mouth / powder drop die. #3 is the bullet seater and #4 is the crimp die. In some cases the seat and crimp dies are "combined".

[geargnasher]

No need for the insults, Doby, nobody is yelling at you, but you do in fact have a great deal to learn if you think expanders don't, or at least aren't supposed to. If they don't expand, then what would you call them? I'd call them a flaring die with a centering guide, which is what you get with a factory set of Lee dies. Also, if you want to use factory die terminology to refute that expander dies don't, why would RCBS sell a variety of different size expander plugs for pistol calibers all by themselves? They do because not all sizes fit all applications, and they know some of us may need larger or smaller expanders.

Gear

[Doby45]

I know exactly what an expanding die does. It "expands/bells/flares" the mouth of the case. This is exactly what I was saying. It does NOT resize the length of the brass to some other size than what the original sizing die did. Then it was implied that there was an "expander ball" in straight wall pistol cases, and there simply isn't. I have a whole bunch of reloading dies and the only ones I have with an "expander ball" on them are for my bottle neck cartridges. The Hornady diagram clearly shows where the "expander ball" is on a die set. It is on the depriming spindle.

And I was not yelling or implying anything at you nasher, you and I normally see 100% eye to eye. But when it is implied by others in this thread that I have no idea what I am talking about and need to get my "ducks in a row" it can ruff the feathers.

I am also not saying that there are "specialty" dies and inserts that are made like the Lyman M dies or the RCBS "special" inserts you are talking about, but the STANDARD set of dies that the majority of the world uses to load pistol rounds include.

1. Sizer/deprimer
2. Expander/belling/flare/powder through
3. Seating/crimping

And to imply that the expander die does more than simply bell the mouth of the brass is wrong.

[RobS]

Doby45:
What I ment by aligning your ducks is to do some research before you start in on stating what you consider a fact. No one is attacking you but you think we all are.

Here is another link:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx?catid=18&subid=128&styleid=422&partnum=lee-die-45-ex&as=1

It shows expanders that are designed for Lee dies (the powder through/expander die)

More specifically here is one that can be used and I've though about it so I could simply replace the factory expander in my current Lee Powder through/expander die thus eliminating the Lyman-M die that I have in my progressive. It would of course need to be turned down, but is relatively easy and could be done with a drill press and a file.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=18&subId=128&styleId=433&partNum=DIE-457-EXP

[Doby45]

That is a very nice addition and I might get one myself. The point once again though, it is NOT standard and it is NOT a ball. I think my biggest hang up was on that it was stated as fact every die set has THAT kind of plug in it, and it doesn't. That is also a plug and not an expander "ball" which is what is common on rifle botle neck cartridges. But I seriously do like that plug and is that basically what the Lyman M die is/does?

[chris in va]

FWIW I looked inside my Lee sizing/decapping 45acp die and there's no mandrel, ball or any sort of plug other than the decapping pin.

My 30-06 die on the other hand definitely has a mandrel incorporated with the decapping pin...which broke on me the other day when I tried to use it on a berdan case that snuck in there.

[geargnasher]

Good Grief, Doby, now we have Chris confused!

Now please don't think I'm attacking you in any way, just trying to make my point clear here since it keeps being missed.

The expander plug, or ball, or stem, or whatever you want to call it is located in the EXPANDER die. It performs the same service in straight-walled pistol cartridges as it does in bottleneck rifle: IT EXPANDS THE RESIZED CASE TO THE PROPER DIAMETER TO ACCEPT THE BOOLIT WITOUT DEFORMATION. In a .45 ACP resizes only the part where the boolit goes, and should do that all the way to where the base of the seated boolit will sit in the case. The expander, much like rifle dies, is designed leave a certain amount of case tension, say .001-2" on most match die sets, more on generics. The same rules apply to shooting lead boolits in pistols, that's why, as I explained earlier and others have posted, you have to have a expander plug that actually expands the whole boolit seating area or the case will swage the boolit. I know you're an experienced caster and reloader, it baffles me how you miss this, and how on earth you get by shooting cast without the correct expanders is another mystery. Please ellaborate.


I know exactly what an expanding die does. It "expands/bells/flares" the mouth of the case. More than that, it SHOULD expand .001" or so under boolit size to the depth the boolit will be seated. This is exactly what I was saying. Then why is there a "plug" part, why not just a cone like the universal expanders? It does NOT resize the length of the brass to some other size than what the original sizing die did. It should make the length of the brass where the boolit will be seated the correct size for correct case tension on the boolit. If the sizing die makes the brass the correct ID already, then the expander does nothing, but it is like a boolit sizer: It should be a uniformer to make sure the final ID is correct through different lots/brands of brass. If it does not do this, especially with cast, it is not doing its job. Then it was implied that there was an "expander ball" in straight wall pistol cases, and there simply isn't. Some people call it a ball, even if it is in a different die, because is serves the same purpose as a "ball" does in bottleneck rifle. I have a whole bunch of reloading dies and the only ones I have with an "expander ball" on them are for my bottle neck cartridges. They all have it, you're just calling it something else on the pistol dies and not recognizing that it is a case "neck" uniformer which "inside-sizes", if you will. The Hornady diagram clearly shows where the "expander ball" is on a die set. It is on the depriming spindle. .....on rifle dies, and in the expander die with pistol die sets.

And I was not yelling or implying anything at you nasher, you and I normally see 100% eye to eye. Yes we do, that's why I have labored over explaining my point of view, restating multiple times in multiple posts in as many ways as I can think of what I'm talking about, trying to understand what the major malfunction is with our understanding each other on this. But when it is implied by others in this thread that I have no idea what I am talking about and need to get my "ducks in a row" it can ruff the feathers. You have to understand that, when you make statements that pistol dies don't have expanders, or those expanders don't open the case up for more than just the mouth at the flare, folks are likely to think yous a fool.

I am also not saying that there are "specialty" dies and inserts that are made like the Lyman M dies or the RCBS "special" inserts you are talking about, but the STANDARD set of dies that the majority of the world uses to load pistol rounds include.

1. Sizer/deprimer
2. Expander/belling/flare/powder through
3. Seating/crimping

And to imply that the expander die does more than simply bell the mouth of the brass is wrong.

That last part gets me. I don't see how you can still say that. No, the expander in a pistol die set doesn't always make the boolit seating area bigger, sometimes the die set doesn't make the brass small enough in the outside sizer to begin with to make the inside expander work it much, but if the case is thicker than normal, or there is a variance between manufacturers, the straight (normally) part of an expander plug is a go, no-go gauge for making sure your case tension is even on each boolit. Just like with bottleneck.

I'm going to go make some pictures to better explain this.

Gear

[Doby45]

Well I just removed my expander plug from my Lee powder through expander die and the 1/4 section on the bottom of it must be the part you are talking about that expands it for the boolit all the way in. Mine doesn't, I can see where that might be what it is designed to do but I can take a freshly sized case and remove that expander plug from the die and just set it in my freshly sized case. If it is SUPPOSE to do something other than make sure the brass is centered prior to a bell then my plug is out of spec.

[RobS]

Doby45:

Your expander is what Lee intended; it is designed initially for jacketed bullets which do not swage down so all that is needed is an expander that just makes it way into the case enough to aid in centering the bullet and flares the mouth to start the bullet. The lee die can and does work if the case strength doesn't supersede the cast boolit strength. If a person is experiencing a case that swages down their cast boolits then some sort of expander die that extends the length of the seated bullet is needed to lessen the neck tension. Most often .002 to .001 under the bullet diameter is sufficient. In addition, as I stated before RCBS does make die sets (RCBS cowboy dies) that have a case sizing die that sizes at a bit larger diameter, but in most situations a proper expander die works quite well and many of these dies can actually swap out expanders making it possible to load different alloy hardness or even from jacketed to cast.

[Doby45]

I am gonna get one of those expanders you listed in the other post. The thought process behind that accessory just makes sense. Thanks. :)

[geargnasher]

Ok, here's a .357 Magnum expander plug out of an RCBS die set. While not good for anything less than about 16 bhn due to being .350" exactly in diameter, it DOES expand a resized case about .002" as deep as the tip of the plug is set to go. The plug won't go in a resized case, even if it has been belled with a cone-shaped bellmouth tool, unless considerable force is used (i.e. reloading press).

The first picture shows how the expander was made by RCBS to extend to a more or less standard seating depth, as indicated by the crimp grooves on these popular boolit styles.

The second attempts to catch the light where you can see the bulge in the case that the expander made, proving that it does indeed expand, even if it's not enough for cast in this instance. I didn't bother to show the expander I really use for .357 and .38, as it is custom and being so doesn't illustrate the point.

Now, as has been stated, and what I believe is the cause of Chris's leading and undersized boolit problems, is that the Lee expander, as you point out also, is no good for cast boolits. One needs an expander that does it's job, and that job is blazing a correctly sized trail in the case for the boolit to follow home without getting damaged by too-tight of a fit. A larger sizing die would help, too, by not working the brass as much, but with carbide you're kinda stuck with whatcha get.

Gear

[HeavyMetal]

Gear:
Thanks for posting the picture!

As always one picture is worth a thousand words!

This is the part of the die set that is set up for Jacketed bullets and needs to be changed to a larger diameter for lead alloy boolits.

[Doby45]

Bravo nasher.. I had never dealt with the RCBS dies and as posted my Lee is definently not doing what it should as a cast boolit expander. :)

[helg]

I am going to buy 38/358 expander plug for my Lee 9mm dies. This is part# SE2408

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/parts.cgi?1121571629.4506=90964

At the picture it looks exactly like 9mm plug. I believe it should fit into my 9mm expander die, and expand case neck to the diameter that is appropriate for my oversized cast bullets. Anyway, it is just $3.

[82nd airborne]

Hey, I thought you knew you bought a tumble boolit mould, it's doing just what it's supposed to! :kidding:

Assuming your'e still shooting the .45 acp, try five grains of Universal before you give up on that boolit.

Gear

Just the loob tumbles! not the whole boolit! gah! I thought everyone knew that.

[462]

This conversation has drifted right into the reason why I got rid of all my Lee handgun dies -- they were swaging the boolits down to jacketed dimensions. Since switching to Lyman (because of their M die) and RCBS, bullet swaging has been completely eliminated.

If one were to somehow re-read every thread in which a handgun was having a leading or accuracy problem, a large percentage of the causes would be attributed to Lee dies.

This is not meant to disparage Lee dies or other of their products...I use a lot of them, in fact, including their rifle neck sizing collet dies. My experience leads my to believe that their handgun dies are intended for reloading boolits. Your experience may differ...

[sqlbullet]

Guys, the wonderful conversation regarding the function, name and effect of the expanding die in a pistol set has been very entertaining.

However, at teh end of the day, it may be irrelevant to Chris's problem.


...just slight taper to remove the bell, plus a hair more for better feeding...

If he needs the hair more to get better feeding, then he is going to remove what ever he expands getting his 'hair more' back. It might not be the seating step at all. It might be the crimp step that is sizing them down.

If the maximum diameter the chamber will accept (with proper function) less the wall thickness leaves only .449 then the issue is really with the gun.

Chris, try this.

Create a round sans primer and powder, and omit the 'hair more for better feeding', only remove the bell. Check this round to see if it will drop all the way into the chamber under only gravity with the barrel removed from the gun. Then pull the bullet and mic it.

If it is an appropriate size (.451-452) and it did chamber completely in just the barrel out of the gun, then you need to look to a different solution to your feeding issue than the 'hair more'.

If the bullet is still small, then you need a fatter plug during the expand section to make the inside of the case a uniform .450, and then you need to repeat the above test.

If a loaded round that is fat enough to hold a .451-.452 bullet won't chamber in your gun(s) then I don't know what to say.

[geargnasher]

I saw that, too, Sqlbullet, and what you say could be true. Problem is, none of us are there to observe Chris' reloading techniques, and since we don't have any pictures of his loaded rounds to see what the final product is, or how they chamber in his gun, then it's all kind of stabbing in the dark. There could be a double-whammy, undersized expander ball and too much crimp squeezing the driving bands from both ends.

I was never clear on what dies were being used, what the alloy composition and hardness was, brand of cases, or chamber dimensions. Chris, if you'd try some of what's been recommended with dummy rounds and give us some more details we can help get to the bottom of this.

Gear

[Doby45]

I would also see if you could aquire some good ole 230gr regular lube groove boolits from one of the folks here. The regular bevel based lube grooved boolits are not as apt to be "sized" down by the case. I can send you some Lee 200gr SWC BB sized to .452 and lubed with C-Red if you would like as a test.

Some of these:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2s156rd.jpg

[geargnasher]

I've offered Chris some boolits too, via pm, but I'm not wasting his time, my time and postage, or lead until he gets his expander situation and crimp corrected. He already ordered a Lee 228 RN mould (which I have) and it has a sharp plain base. I agree the BB might be better since the base "band" doesn't go as far down into the case, but I also think he might be able to use the TL mould (with BB) he already has if his alloy strength is ok and the expander opens up the case correctly.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Just thinking about those silly TL boolits.

Should be really easy to crunch one down a touch - not much 'high spot' and a
nice valley next door to move to. Kinda like the grooves in a Barnes TSX
lower the force required to engrave.

Another reason to love the TL designs. . . . . . . . . .

Bill

[noylj]

Personally, I swear by shooting as-cast bullets with just a light LLA tumble takes care of almost all my leading and accuracy issues. I gave up sizing years ago— used to just use a sizing die that was 0.000-0.001" larger than the cast bullets. Then I got some Alox and was told to just tumble the bullets in it so they would get a light coating. I fire a couple hundred rounds at a time and just brush out the barrel of soot occasionally.
Really, all my cast bullets are 0.001-0.004" over groove diameter and they all shoot as good or better than common jacketed bullets.
Some people scream about it, but with the low pressure of the .45ACP, I find that I like to have the bullet just "kiss" the rifling. This can have a major effect of accuracy and I haven't seen any pressure signs with my guns.
My first though when i see that picture of your barrel, besides I wish I could take a picture like that, is that is looks like it is oozing Alox.
Next, you may need to get an expander that opens the case to about 0.450" so you aren't swaging down your bullet. See if you can find an old .45 Colt exapnder for .454" bullets. Also, from my experience, you need a relatively hard bullet for the .45 since the rifling is so shallow. Not linotype, but a 2/6/42 alloy.
I have never seen a .45 keyholing.
When you clean the barrel, does it look bright and shiny? No signs of bulge or damage? Almost expect that the bullets aren't even seeing the grooves to "grab" on to and you are just "squirting" bullets downrange.