Poor powders in the BFR 45-70

[44man]

I loaded the Hornady 300 gr bullets with 10 annealed cases and 10 with fired cases from my BPCR that have never been sized before. Shot 50 yd's.
I loaded the annealed ones with 43 and 44 gr's of Reloader 7. Recoil was no more then a .45 Colt and impact was 3" and 2-1/2" low. 43 gr's gave me 4 in 1-3/4" and a flier to 4-9/16". 44 gr's gave me 5 in 1-7/8".
The next 10 were 34 and 35 gr's of 5744. Even less recoil and impact was 4" and 3-3/8" low. 34 gave me 4 in 2-1/4" with a flier to 4-1/8". 35 gave me 5 in 1-15/16".
Both powders did not burn completely and I poured a significant amount out of each fired case. I had a neat pile of powder on the bench. I was using LR primers.
Neither is worth a darned from the revolver. I figure no more then 1100 to 1200 fps based on recoil and point of impact. 20 wasted bullets.

[44man]

I am trying to find out what the maximum load of 4227, either IMR or H, would be with the 300 gr Hornady. I see loads as high as 40 gr's for H and up to 39 for IMR.
My pet loads book says as little as 30 gr's with 400 gr bullets proved dangerous in some guns, yet I see loads as high as 36 gr's for H.
I would like to try it and I have IMR 4227 handy. Since it is a tricky powder and I only have a few bullets left, I can't work with too many loads. I would appreciate any help.

[doghawg]

Here is what I got with 37 gr. of H4227 and 300 gr. Hornadys.
1707
1673
1302
1703
1706

Yup, the 1302 was 4" high and the rest were touching at 50 yards! Same schmitt with H4198 H322 and even 2400. AA 5744 left a mess of unburned nuggets.

[doghawg]

44 man

Now that I appear to have my cookie problem ironed out, I wanted to tell you that I have about 6 pages of notes, numbers and frustration with 300 gr. bullets in the BFR. We're dealing with a large capacity rifle cartridge, using rifle powders, with light-for-caliber bullets in a short barrel. There isn't enough resistance and barrel time to get a uniform burn in my opinion. I had enough of the flyers and erratic readings.

Unique works fine but obviously can't be kicked up to hunting load levels. This is why I went to 400 gr. bullets (Speer, Rem and CPFNGC's) and Rel #7. The other powders I tried (H4198, SR 4759, AA5744 and even 2400) may also work well with heavier bullets, I didn't try them.

I've read posts from people that claim results with 300's and rifle powders but I wonder if they are getting occasional flyers or if they have even shot the load much. My experiences with 300's parallels yours.

There are some 300's on the loading bench now with Blue Dot. I'm starting at 20 gr. but haven't tried them yet. Blue Dot would be dangerous for someone that wanted to turn a .45/70 into a .458 but if I can hit around 1500 fps with mild pressures that'll be just fine for our Wisc deer. Let me know where you end up with this.

[Bass Ackward]

44 man,

You are only burning about 73% of your powder with those loads and the highest pressure I get using standard OAL for a 45-70 is about 27,000 psi with the RL7. Using 39 grains of 5744 is 26,717 psi. 34 grains is only 20,00 psi and about 1250 fps perfect world.

If you want to run 27,000 psi in a short barrel, then you don't get to 90% powder burn until you get to 2400 in powder speed. The load there is 30 grains for about 1400 fps in perfect world conditions.

Using standard OAL again in Quickload, IMR 4227 is 40 (forty) grains at 26,684 psi. Percentage of burn is only 80%. Of coarse, change OAL and pressure changes.

[44man]

Great, that gives me a starting point. I have had great accuracy before with the 300 Hornady and 4198 but when chronographing them, I had a few that went to 1800 fps with sticky cases and the rest would be 1500 to 1600. The powder really sucks with a 317 gr cast giving me all sorts of pressure and velocity changes.
My best luck so far has been with 4759 and the 317 cast at 1535 fps.
I had these Hornady bullets though and wanted to try one on deer this season along with a softnose cast. Going back to 4198 with the Hornady was no good, I will pull the rest and try some 4759, 4227 and maybe 2400.
I have a home made mould for a 378 gr boolit that I have not worked with much yet and might have time before hunting season.
Here are the three boolits from home made moulds, a 317 gr, a 330 gr and a 378 gr. The 317 has given me groups way under an inch at 50 yd's and has hit steel to 500 meters but you know from a previous post that I wore out my brass. Thats when I decided to anneal some and try the jacketed. So far none of the bullets has pulled in the annealed cases and I still have to try the cast with them.
My loads for the 317 and 330 are 31 gr's and 31.5 gr's of 4759 respectivly and a pinch of dacron. A good deer load at 1535 fps that I can fall back to.
It is the Hornady that gives me a pain but I have not tried the 4759 with it either. I am almost out of them and will not buy any more jacketed when they are gone so I am limited to find a load and still have a few left to try on a deer.

[44man]

4759 wins, hands down, with the Hornady 300 gr. I just picked 32 gr's with a little dacron and shot this. Some load work and I am sure I can get under 1" at 50 yd's. These are 1-1/4".
The 4227 sucked as usual in anything but the .357 and .357 max. I could tell by the changes in recoil that it was no good.
I use 4759 in the 7BR and 7R with fantastic results and shot so many 40's in IHMSA with it you would not believe. I have shot 1" groups at 200 meters with the Wichita 7R and 3/8" groups at 100 with the MOA 7BR.
The more guns I use this powder in, the more I think it is the most versatile powder made.
This will be the only powder I will work with using my 378 gr boolit too.

[doghawg]

44 man

I'm glad to see you found what you want. I used SR 4759 for one loading session and moved on. A load of 32 gr. under a 300 gr. Sierra gave around 1500 fps with one shot of 1131 fps which turned the 5" group into an 8". Then 30 grains under a 405 gr. Rem jacketed printed 1 1/4" at 50 yards, which is great, but, the velocity spread was from 1141 to 1280 for 5 shots. Hard to believe that much ES could shoot that well.

BUT..........neither of the above loads was with fillers and that might be the key. I've never liked 'em and am too old to change now. I do remember that 32 grains of SR 4759 lit off with enough racket to do justice to a nuclear device.

[44man]

Yes, it is loud and has a flame in front of the muzzle but has always shot great. I thing the dacron helps. I estimate I am getting 1600 fps or a little more based on recoil and point of impact. I didn't want to take down the chrono for a few shots. I am so used to the gun that I can guess how fast it is.
If I were you I would go back and use some dacron filler. I love 4759!

[Bass Ackward]

Yes, it is loud and has a flame in front of the muzzle but has always shot great. I thing the dacron helps. I estimate I am getting 1600 fps or a little more based on recoil and point of impact. I didn't want to take down the chrono for a few shots. I am so used to the gun that I can guess how fast it is.
If I were you I would go back and use some dacron filler. I love 4759!


44,

Yea. 4759 is VERY versitile. My only problem with it is that it is temperature sensitive. I don't seem to have a problem with it too much in bottleneck cases, but in straight sided cases, it can have a tremendous change.

Bob always gets on my a$$ about this, but I tested it again to be sure.

I used my 458X2 (about same capacity as 45-70) with full length sizing for maximum neck tension, crimped, and seated hard into the lands. There was full lubrication on the bullet as all grease grooves were full. So lube wasn't a problem here in other words. All shells were loaded at the same time in late December with my 420 grain bullet of ACWW.

25 grains was 1250 fps at -4 degrees with a lot of ash in the bore. At 32 degrees velocity was 1400 fps with a clean bore. At 80 degrees it flatened primers producing 1650 fps. My cases needed to be trimmed .120 (almost 1/8") to get back to normal! Maximum safe load is only 20 grains in the summer.

I don't use it very often unless I am using it in bottle necks where it really excells for squib stuff.

[44man]

Yes, it will do that but the temperatures around here are not drastic. 4227 is without a doubt the very worst for temp sensitivity. The reason I don't even like to fool with it. Very few powders are stable under all conditions. One reason I would always check groups and point of impact with a couple of gr's less and more then my load. If they shot the same, a little heat or cold would not make me miss.
There are better powders now but they have not done much in the range I need for the revolvers.
I have used 4759 in pretty cold weather and the deer were hit where I aimed. We are not talking extreme cold, just cold, around 25 to 30 degrees.
There are a whole lot WORSE powders!

[45 2.1]

Bob always gets on my a$$ about this, but I tested it again to be sure.

I used my 458X2 (about same capacity as 45-70) with full length sizing for maximum neck tension, crimped, and seated hard into the lands. There was full lubrication on the bullet as all grease grooves were full. So lube wasn't a problem here in other words. All shells were loaded at the same time in late December with my 420 grain bullet of ACWW.

25 grains was 1250 fps at -4 degrees with a lot of ash in the bore. At 32 degrees velocity was 1400 fps with a clean bore. At 80 degrees it flatened primers producing 1650 fps. My cases needed to be trimmed .120 (almost 1/8") to get back to normal! Maximum safe load is only 20 grains in the summer.

Sorry John, but here I am again. This time i'm going to give you some items to think about.
1) No powder manufacturer is going to keep a powder out there that produces erratic behavior (like the above load is doing).
2) Your comparing your cartridge to the 4570. In the 4570, those loads are stable over the entire temperature spectrum and do not produce over 22,000 C.U.P. which is midrange for the lever action rifles.
3) 20 gr. of SR4759 was a standard light load for the 4570 back in the 40's and on.
No problems with that load range happen with SR4759 in the 4570. What the problem is: is one of over ignition. This problem was written up by Townsend Whelen in the 40's also. SR4759 is a reduced load/midrange powder and it was also recommended to use mild primers with it. You full length size, have a tight boolit pull and crimp. In the 4570, I use almost no neck tension and a medium crimp and get perfect ignition with extremely low extreme spreads while your balistics show that it is very erratic with temperature variations. Please rethink your methodology. Someone may get hold of those loads and not know to only shoot them in very cold weather.

[Bass Ackward]

You full length size, have a tight boolit pull and crimp. In the 4570, I use almost no neck tension and a medium crimp and get perfect ignition with extremely low extreme spreads while your balistics show that it is very erratic with temperature variations. Please rethink your methodology. Someone may get hold of those loads and not know to only shoot them in very cold weather.[/B]


Bob,

Well, seems is no pleasing you as if that is a requirement. When I told you about it the first time, you said "my" problem was that I wasn't using enough crimp and getting poor ignition was the reason for the variation.

Now I went to the other extreme to see if it was reproducible. Now my problem is I am getting over ignition. But in truth, it doesn't matter if the problem only occurs on Tuesday's when suspended upside down under rapid fire conditions. A limitation is a limitation in my mind.

I don't by the argument about manufacturers either. I can think of several powders with reported problems. Blue Dot has wide temperature sensitivity and is reported problematic in the cold. H110 and 296 are reported to have wild pressure girations with reduced loadings. There are several powders with warnings attached. 5744 was origonally yanked until it was reintroduced with more nitro content.. Most appear in pretty much the same burn rate range too by the way. (Blue Dot to 4227)

[44man]

I use a Fed LP magnum primer with 4759, milder then the LR primer but is more accurate then the Fed 150. Ignition can make or break a load and some powders work better with a milder light.
I have never found drastic changes with 4759 and have had my guns so hot I could not touch the barrels and hunted in very cold weather.
With 4227, all that is needed is a hot gun even in cold weather. Add a very hot day and the stuff can get you in trouble. It is a very caliber specific powder. It won't work in the .44 and .45 if the barrel even gets warm. I try to stay away from it as much as possible. So many guys use it that I had to try it and my suspicions were confirmed. It looks like I will have the rest of the can forever since I no longer have the .357 max.
I have a problem with 4198 and the primer doesn't matter. Most cases fall out of the gun when I tip it up but there is always one or two that takes a lot of force on the ejector to remove. I bent the thing once with an expanded case. Heat doesn't seem to be the problem because it can be the first shot from a cold gun that expands. I don't know what the problem with 4198 is! It gives me fits with cast boolits!
4227 and 4198 are two powders I stay away from the most. Makes me mad because they are both in the correct burn rate for the 45-70 revolver.
Add another powder, 5744, to the list. It just doesn't burn and velocities are low. I can't picture using it in the .44! I will save the rest for rifles.
The biggest problem is a short revolver barrel (10") with a large case. I can not picture what those guys do when they buy a shorter barreled revolver ( some guys even want a 4" barrel in the .500, give me a break!) because they are "easy to pack." What a fallacy! A hunting revolver is NOT a pack gun.
I had the same problems with the 10" 30-30 TC. Too large a case for the barrel length. Both it and the 45-70 BFR can be made to sit up and talk but the powder choices boil down to one or two, no more. The saving grace is low pressure with high velocity. But choose the wrong powder and pressure variations can cause problems. Why this doesn't happen in a rifle with these powders is beyond me. I suspect the reason is that the bullet can not be held back by seating into the rifling, in the revolver the bullet just moves! But why did the TC give me trouble when I DID seat into the rifling? I had terrible trouble with a hot barrel on that thing. With a cold barrel I could hit a nickel at 100 yd's.

[doghawg]

I've never used IMR4227 but have had good luck with H4227 in both the .500 Smith and .500 BFR. H4227 is one of Hodgdons "extreme" powders and is advertised as being temp insensitive. It also works out real well in my .475 BFR with both the 375 LFNGC and 420 WFNGC but I don't run either one at full throttle. My little 4 5/8 Ruger BH .41 mag shoots 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards (As good as I can see iron sights) with 19 gr. of H4227 under a 200 gr. Speer half jacket.

But, in the .45/70 BFR with 300 gr. bullets, it stinks. The maddening part for me is that often times the BFR was shooting a nice tiny little cluster and then Bingo, a flyer 4" out.

There were some 20 year old Win 405 gr. jacketed factory loads in the back of the cabinet and I tried them out in the BFR. I'm embarassed to admit that I haven't come up with a handload that would match or beat the accuracy of those factory loads. The velocity was only about 1125 ave but they would shoot 1" at 50 yards. I saved the last round and pulled the bullet. There was 20.6 gr. of a semi-flattened ball powder in there. It obviously wasn't position sensitive because there was a lot of airspace in the case. Sure would like to know what powder that was.

[44man]

That would be interesting, 20.6 gr's means a very fast powder!
I don't have any of the newer H 4227. I have a tiny bit of the old stuff in the paper can, never liked it. I know Hodgden changed it somewhat since then. I'm not going to buy any either. I have a whole drawer full of powders that never panned out, 680, 4320 and a bunch of accurate powders. For some reason I never got the accuracy or near the listed velocities with any accurate powder. The only one close to being decent was 3100 but it is slower then 4831 and never was as accurate. A safe powder because I could never get enough in a case to hurt anything.
H110 never worked for me except in the standard Redhawk. 296 is always more accurate. Same powder but from a different burn rate during manufacture. Seemed as if working a load would make it work, but it never did. In the .44 and .45, 296 is always more accurate with a standard primer too. I have proven it time and again that groups triple in size with a mag primer in the .44 even when working loads to compensate for a primer change. The .475 needs a mag primer showing the opposite reactions. Then my benchmark for any revolver is 1" or less at 50 yd's for the biggest majority of groups. Can't always get it due to brass changes, eyesight and how good I am holding on a given day but when enough tight groups are shot, I am happy.

[doghawg]

Went to the range with the BFR 45/70 and Blue Dot today. A load of 20 gr. under a 300 gr. Hornady went from 1244 to 1369 fps with 50 yard accuracy at 2". The 21 gr. load was 3" while 22 gr. was back to 2" and from 1441 to 1510 fps. The 22 gr. load would be usable for Wisc. cedar swamp deer hunting where ranges seldom exceed 75 yards. Actually, they'd all work just fine, I guess, but the confidence that comes with a tack driver load is nice.

But then...... I shot my old load of 41 gr. of Rel #7 under a 400 gr. Speer FN and put 10 shots in 1 5/8".....8 were in 1". Velocity ranged from 1304 to 1372. The load does as well with 405 Rems and also 405 CPFNGC's. A laser cast 350 over 15 gr. of Unique shoots to the same POI so I could hammer on my 50 yard swinger without further abusing these tired old mitts.

That was the end of the 300 grainers today, probably won't get any more.

[44man]

I think Reloader 7 will work with my 378 gr boolit. The lighter bullets don't allow it to burn good. You are getting a good hunting velocity with the 400 gr. After getting the 300 Hornady's to shoot, I will move on to the heavier boolit.