500 gr bullet in 45/70

[Kyfarmer]

I recently acquired an H&R Buffalo Classic in 45/70. Just beginning to work up some cast bullet loads for it. I have a Lee 405 gr. mold and a Lyman 457125 500 gr. Tried a few of the Lee 405's and they look to be Ok in this rifle. Yesterday I loaded up 5 rounds with the 500 gr bullet, seated them down to the crimp groove and stepped out to the bench to try them. Trouble is they wouldn't chamber. Liked maybe 1/3" or so.
I went back and seated them down to the same length as the 405 but it really compressed the powder. Lyman book calls for OAL of 2.878 for this bullet and 2.550 for the 405 gr. I am concerned that seating this long bullet that deep in the case would significantly raise pressures.

Do these rifles have an extra short throat compared to others? I am sure others are using 500 gr. bullets in these rifles. Has anyone ran into this before and if so what did you do. Also can these rifles be loaded up to the same pressures as the Marlin 1895 or should I stick to lighter loads.

Would also like to get some favorite 45/70 loads. Thanks in advance. KyFarmer

[Finn45]

Seating the boolit deeper will raise the pressure especially in straight case big bore. Start from the low end and reduce the load according to shortened coal. Seat deeper only enough to allow chambering + little clearance, maybe so that only half of the first band is exposed; not directly from 2.878" to 2.55".

I didn't find any crimp grooves in my Ideal 457125, they look all lube grooves to me. Anyway BC won't need any crimp so coal can be set to where ever it works best.

I also have a BC with very short throat which I lapped to allow a bit longer coal. Now I can seat that 457125 so that one lube groove is out of the case. Is it necessary...? Maybe not, but... Looky here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7623

Here's my 457125 around at 2.88" max coal on the left:

http://pyssymiehet.com/shooting/bpdummies.jpg

[chunkum]

With these long nosed bullets, do you think it would be worthwhile to reverse the bullet in the sizing die and size the nose down back to the point that the bullet could be seated to the desired depth without interference from the rifling?
It would essentiallly amount to a "bore rider" type of bullet nose, would it not?
Best Regards,
chunkum

[Boz330]

KyFarmer,
Did you size these bullets and are they soft? You might have have swelled the nose in the process. Take an unsized bullet and see if the nose will go in the muzzle and then try it with the sized bullet. Needless to say this has happened to me with a similar shaped bullet in .40. Of course that is the advantage of having a PHD from the school of hard knocks.
Where in West Ky are you located. I deer hunt just east of Hop-town.

Bob

[44man]

You never mentioned the powder or load you are using!

[Finn45]

...Trouble is they wouldn't chamber. Liked maybe 1/3" or so.

Ouch, I didn't notice that 1/3" part... Some difference here, nose in mine is way undersized and coal is limited only by the first band.

[ben1025]

I have 3 of the single shot NEF in 45/70. Realized right away they had short necks. Bought a neck reamer and lemgthened the necks 1/4 inch. Very easy to do on a single shot. The reamer cost $50. It was worth it. For blackpowder I would say it's a necessity. Probably not for smokeless.

[Larry Gibson]

I have a troating reamer that was used once. I would sell it if interested?

Larry Gibson

[Kyfarmer]

Thanks for all the replies.

Finn, my 457125 doesn't look like yours. Mine has a flat nose and definitely has a crimp groove and three lube grooves. I was experimenting with some 8700 I had on hand (8 Lbs) but I don't think it's going to work. Tried 3 powders this AM for the 405 grain bullet. 3031, 4198, and 2015BR. It looks like 4198 is the winner. Will try it next with the 500 gr.

Boz330, These bullets are cast from wheelweights with approx. 1/2 lb. tin added to 20 lbs. They are sized to .458 and lubed with Lar45's red lube. I am sure nose is not deformed. I am located about 6 miles due west of Hoptown. Where are you located?

Larry, Send me an email at bobdavenport@bellsouth.net. I may be interested in the throat reamer.

[Boz330]

I live just outside Bardstown. I hunt on the Watts farm south of Trenton. It straddles the Chris-Todd county line.

Bob

[13Echo]

KyFarmer,
The Lyman 457125 will have 4 grease grooves, no crimp groove and will have a round, not flat tip. What you have sounds more like some of the SAECO designs. Could you post a picture by chance? I suspect a proper version of the 1881 bullet (Lyman 457125 or SAECO 881) would work in your rifle as it seems to do in other Buffalo Classics. Get some and try them before reaming the throat. I could send you a few if you would like to try them.
Jerry Liles

[Kyfarmer]

Boy do I have egg on my face. Turns out the 500 gr bullet was not the Lyman 457125 but was a Redding 500 gr. #22. that I cast several years ago and have been looking at them all these years and thinking they were the Lyman bullet. I had completely forgot I had the mold I bought for a 456 Win Mag.

After rummaging around the reloading room I found a few of the Lymans. I quickly assembled a dummy cartridge with the bullet seated just past the first lube groove and tried it in the Buffalo Classic. It dropped in like a champ. Now to load up a few and see how they shoot. Many thanks to all the help and suggestions.

I tried to upload a pic of both bullets. Hope it works.

[DonH]

The Lyman was designed to be a bore riding bullet. I would want to know the bore and groove dimensions of the barrel. That bullet if cast from lead/tin alloy should be under .450 on the nose according to what I have read from Lyman in the past. I think I would look at those things to know what I have before re-cutting the throat.

[omgb]

Kyfarmer, here is a suggestion for those Redding bullets. Switch over to AA5744 formerly XMP5744. Then seat the bullet deep enough so that the cartridge will chamber. 5744 doesn't need a lot of space and generally produces lower pressures making it safe in large capcity cartridges used in 19th century arms. I found that 5744 in my 45-90 produces some excellent accuracy.

My other choice, had you been using a bullet that would seat out farther would have been 5 gr of RL7 and a full case of 2F GOEX compressed 1/8" and a .030 card wad. Federal 215 primers work well here. This is a 1200 fps load but it has proven to be very accurate in my guns. Of course, it won't work with the Redding bullet in your gun. :violin:

[Kyfarmer]

I loaded up a few of the 500 gr. Lymans up this morning with 38 grs of 3031 and tried them. 5 shot group at 50 yds got about an inch group with one shot out to 2 inches. My old diabetic eyes can't see much better. And boy did it have some recoil. Going to try 4198 next. Is there a better ladder type aperture sight available that doesn't cost more than the rifle. I would like something that has more elevation and is easy to change. The Willaim sight is hard to change quickly and doesn't have enought adjustment.