Thoughts about the .454

[44man]

I have never had a yearning for this caliber and only shot them from friends guns. Something about it. Now I have had to work with them more and find a lot I don't like.
Recoil is way more then is reasonable for the cartridge and lighter guns not only hurt but are hard to control.
I don't like the SR primer that can force out a boolit before ignition. You can't safely work starting loads with slow powder or it will not ignite.
A small change in the load or boolit can make POI change a lot.
I have no problems with my hand loads but many, many factory loads will pull under recoil and tie up the gun. I need a dowel and little hammer to dangerously set boolits or bullets back in the case so the cylinder can be opened. (Is it new, soft brass?)
Even small amounts of pull show up as changes on the chronograph.
You need to know exactly what you are doing when loading.
Using light loads defeats the purpose and a .45 Colt is better.
The boolit can be shot too fast and if too hard it makes a poor deer killer.
I would never trust a light gun in a bad situation with a bear, etc.
I was blaming the Freedom with the short cylinder but found cylinder tie up happens even with a longer cylinder. Even way over crimped factory loads will slip. Shows crimp is not enough.
Accuracy with a SR primer suffers.
No other caliber is giving me these problems.

[Trey45]

From just my own observations here, it seems the gun comics firmly believe that game animals have become tougher to kill in the last decade or so. Most would have us believe that North American whitetail deer can only be killed with one of the new wsm's or wssm's. The venerable 30WCF is mysteriously no longer capable of harvesting venison. Once again, I'm speaking purely from my own opinions here, with the recent (within the last 20 years) popularity of the Casull, and yes I realise just how old that cartridge is, but it has gained popularity by leaps and bounds within the last 20 years, and the introduction of these new super magnum calibers, ie, 460SW, 500SW mag it just seems that it's the same old story again. The old classic calibers are somehow incapable of performing like they have performed for decades in the past. You can't have sufficient bear protection unless you carry this new 500 SW MAg, REALLY? the 44 mag is now too aenemic to kill a bear? When did God start making these boolit proof animals? The way I see it here, if that 454 casull is giving you, or anyone else this much grief, why even bother with it? Your beloved 44 magnum is capable of everything that 454 can do, maybe not as fast, but stil effective. It will do the same job with less problem, with proven results you yourself have done time and time again. I'm a fan of the 45 Colt, in the right gun with the right load there's nothing a 44 mag can do that the 45 Colt can't do equally well. I toyed with the idea of buying a 454 Casull for a while, briefly, but realised the 45 Colt in my Rugers, with my loads, will do everything that 454 Casull will do, maybe not as fast, but still just as effective. I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Are your 44's broke? Nah, didn't think so! :)

[44man]

Trey, they are not my guns, I would never buy one for myself.
The .44 still shines.

[WARD O]

About 5 years ago my boss treated me to a FA M83 in 454 with an extra cylinder in 45 Colt. It was a geat gift and I really like the gun. I have many many custom reloads thru the 45 Colt cylinder but the 454 cylinder is still new. Some day I'm going to have to go try it.

I've never heard that complaint about bullet pull from anyone shooting the old FA factory loaded ammo - The crimp on those loads really looked extreme to me. Maybe all that changed when the 454 came under the SAAMI specs and others got in the game.

I guess that what I'm saying is that there just isn't anything I need a revolver to do that my heavy 45 Colt or one of my favorite 44 Mags or 44 Specials won't accomplish. I'm with you on the 44 caliber - it shines!

44man - have you played with the new Alliant 300MP powder yet?

Ward

[44man]

About 5 years ago my boss treated me to a FA M83 in 454 with an extra cylinder in 45 Colt. It was a geat gift and I really like the gun. I have many many custom reloads thru the 45 Colt cylinder but the 454 cylinder is still new. Some day I'm going to have to go try it.

I've never heard that complaint about bullet pull from anyone shooting the old FA factory loaded ammo - The crimp on those loads really looked extreme to me. Maybe all that changed when the 454 came under the SAAMI specs and others got in the game.

I guess that what I'm saying is that there just isn't anything I need a revolver to do that my heavy 45 Colt or one of my favorite 44 Mags or 44 Specials won't accomplish. I'm with you on the 44 caliber - it shines!

44man - have you played with the new Alliant 300MP powder yet?

Ward
No, I just blew my SS check on 296 but I would love to test it.
It is strange that Freedom ammo or my hand loads do not pull. I don't even approach the factory crimps and just use a moderate roll crimp.

[WARD O]

No, I just blew my SS check on 296 but I would love to test it.
It is strange that Freedom ammo or my hand loads do not pull. I don't even approach the factory crimps and just use a moderate roll crimp.

If you are using once (or more) fired brass, it might take a better grip on the bullet as opposed to new brass.

The old FA ammo had a very heavy crimp and I really haven't checked on any of the current brands available to compare.

On the 300MP, I don't shoot enough to really give it a test but I do intend to start playing with it. I guess I'll just go with 296 data and see where it leads.

Ward

[Lloyd Smale]

personaly ive had more problems with bullet pull in the 475 then either the 500 line or the 454. For the most part in any of them after about 3 firings even starline brass needs to be put in a box for lighter loads as case tension doesnt seem to hold up. The 500 is the best of the three but then again it runs at alot lower pressures.

[curdog]

I have a super redhawk in 454, it misfires every once and a while. I think I am doing something wrong with primer seating. I thought about 460 brass and trimming them but the price of them is too high. I am thinking about trading for a super blackhawk hunter model 44 mag. Do any of you have any thoughts on this?






































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[Ben]

Curdog :

Are your primers seated perfectly flush with the case head ? Have you tried more than one brand of primer to see if that influences the mis-fires?

Is this single action or double action when the misfires are occurring ?

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

I like my SRH in 454. I like it because its my heavy 45 Colt. I have shot no more than a half a dozen boxes of 454, but I have sent alot of 45 Colt down range out of it. POA just doesn't change much with load changes.

[wiersy111]

If your really looking for a big bore check out Magnum Research's BFR. I have the 45-70 with the 10" barrel, I love shooting it and have not had a single boolit come out of crimp. The recoil isn't bad at all. My son has the BFR 450 Marlin, now that one has an attitude but the recoil is still manageable.

[44man]

personaly ive had more problems with bullet pull in the 475 then either the 500 line or the 454. For the most part in any of them after about 3 firings even starline brass needs to be put in a box for lighter loads as case tension doesnt seem to hold up. The 500 is the best of the three but then again it runs at alot lower pressures.
That is funny Lloyd, I love the .475 and my brass is really getting old. I never had a boolit pull. Most brass has 20 to 30 loads.
Whitworth brings all kinds of factory loads to test and we have not had a problem but all .454 loads will pull except my loads or original Freedom loads. I really think it is the quick, sharp recoil. It really is different.

[curdog]

Ben: I have tried winchester sr and remington br sr primers. They looked to be seated in a little further than flush. Both primers misfired so it must be a seating problem. I am using a ram prime and seat until they stop, I am not ape ing on them as to mash the primer or anything. The gun pops the 45 colt primers all the time, maybe i should stay with that. I just hate to give up on it. Thank you for the info.

[ole 5 hole group]

I don’t know if I can be of any help but maybe you could try cleaning the primer pockets to see if that solves the problem. I know some primer pockets crud up pretty good and when seating the primer the “feel” is good but the primer may still have a little float and will FTF. You’ll probably see the firing pin strike will look like a little hit also. They normally fire on the second go-around.

As for the 460 brass cut down to 454 length, they have worked very well for me and I haven’t noticed any bullet pull after approximately 10 to 12 firings. I'm using the Redding Profile Crimp. I finally found a couple great low velocity loads for plinking & they are pretty accurate also. Using a BFR with a 6” barrel and the 460 case, WLP primers, a 340 grain hardcast behind 10.0 grains of HS-6 will shoot bug holes and the felt recoil is about like a 38 Special. Got that load from a J. Taffin article last week and gave it a go and was pleasantly surprised with the accuracy. Shooting full-on loads just isn't enjoyable for long range sessions but you do have the option.

[jwp475]

That is funny Lloyd, I love the .475 and my brass is really getting old. I never had a boolit pull. Most brass has 20 to 30 loads.
Whitworth brings all kinds of factory loads to test and we have not had a problem but all .454 loads will pull except my loads or original Freedom loads. I really think it is the quick, sharp recoil. It really is different.



I've never ever had a 454 reload pull crimp. I shoot a fair amount of Buffalo bore ammo in the 454 and have never ever had one pull crimp.

Like Lloyd I have had more 475'd pull crimp, 30 reloads on one case without problems? I like to live on fantasy island

[Lloyd Smale]

most of my problems come from the rcbs swc and the lee rf. Both of them are a bit wanting in crimp grove dept and thats probably a good part of the problem. Most of my problems with 454 are with ww brass. Have you had the same problem with the 460 brass you cut down? I still havent got around to testing the ammo i have loaded with them as ive been busy everyday with shooting crop management deer. Redhawks and super redhawks are notorious for light primer strikes. Federal primers will help. I can say thought that when using 454 brass with small primers ive never had a problem in my FA or even my alaskan with ww small rifle standard primers and in accuracy testing they usually prove to be the most accurate.
That is funny Lloyd, I love the .475 and my brass is really getting old. I never had a boolit pull. Most brass has 20 to 30 loads.
Whitworth brings all kinds of factory loads to test and we have not had a problem but all .454 loads will pull except my loads or original Freedom loads. I really think it is the quick, sharp recoil. It really is different.

[bbailey7821]

I think you may be doing something wrong... Not criticizing, but I shoot alot of 454's, most FA Brass with 340g GC's, CCI 450, WW296 powder. I've never had one pull a crimp. That being said, I agree that a "good ol' 44 Keith Load" will drop anything that breathes, on this continent with one, well placed shot.

[44man]

I think you may be doing something wrong... Not criticizing, but I shoot alot of 454's, most FA Brass with 340g GC's, CCI 450, WW296 powder. I've never had one pull a crimp. That being said, I agree that a "good ol' 44 Keith Load" will drop anything that breathes, on this continent with one, well placed shot.
I have never had one of my .454 hand loads pull either even when Whitworth shot 5 and removed the last one.
The problem was with all the various factory loads and he did have several light strikes with his RH.
I have been using Hornady .45 Colt dies to load with and I only use a medium roll crimp.
I think what is happening is the factory is putting such a hard crimp on them that it is breaking the case tension.
I use Hornady dies for my .475 and even the Lee 400 gr will not pull. I use no more then enough roll crimp to fold the edge into the little crimp scratch Lee uses.
I have never found a need for a hard crimp or full profile on any caliber.
I shoot thousands of 330 gr boolits out of my .44 with no more then a roll crimp and never seen one move.
I also crimp while seating on most calibers, never found a need for two operations unless I use a separate die.
Here are my crimps on a .500 JRH and .475.

[44man]

I feel too many just over crimp. It is only there to AID holding a boolit and you should not depend on it for doing all the holding or helping powder burn.
I would bet I use less crimp then anyone without a problem.
Remember that I asked Whitworth why the factory loads were crimped so much! I don't think they have an understanding of the mechanics involved and think they need a very hard crimp.
I have posted a thousand times that case tension holds the boolit and the least crimp you can get away with is best.
If you can hold Lee boolits, you can hold anything.

[Shooter]

From just my own observations here, it seems the gun comics firmly believe that game animals have become tougher to kill in the last decade or so. Most would have us believe that North American whitetail deer can only be killed with one of the new wsm's or wssm's. The venerable 30WCF is mysteriously no longer capable of harvesting venison. Once again, I'm speaking purely from my own opinions here, with the recent (within the last 20 years) popularity of the Casull, and yes I realise just how old that cartridge is, but it has gained popularity by leaps and bounds within the last 20 years, and the introduction of these new super magnum calibers, ie, 460SW, 500SW mag it just seems that it's the same old story again. The old classic calibers are somehow incapable of performing like they have performed for decades in the past. You can't have sufficient bear protection unless you carry this new 500 SW MAg, REALLY? the 44 mag is now too aenemic to kill a bear? When did God start making these boolit proof animals? The way I see it here, if that 454 casull is giving you, or anyone else this much grief, why even bother with it? Your beloved 44 magnum is capable of everything that 454 can do, maybe not as fast, but stil effective. It will do the same job with less problem, with proven results you yourself have done time and time again. I'm a fan of the 45 Colt, in the right gun with the right load there's nothing a 44 mag can do that the 45 Colt can't do equally well. I toyed with the idea of buying a 454 Casull for a while, briefly, but realised the 45 Colt in my Rugers, with my loads, will do everything that 454 Casull will do, maybe not as fast, but still just as effective. I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Are your 44's broke? Nah, didn't think so! :)

I tend to agree .
My .454 is an Encore, so I don't have most of these problems. The use I find for it is a way to shoot .45-70 loads without all the excess case volumn.
I size the Lyman 330 grain Goulds bullet to .454, and load it over lenght. It makes a great ".45-70 short"

[Bass Ackward]

You can simply have a bad batch of brass too. I got a new bag of Remington, 357 Magnum brass that is so soft that it has little resistance when resizing. It will hold 180s because of the bearing area, but not 140s.

No resistance down, then no hold. Brass is all over the place.

[44man]

You can simply have a bad batch of brass too. I got a new bag of Remington, 357 Magnum brass that is so soft that it has little resistance when resizing. It will hold 180s because of the bearing area, but not 140s.

No resistance down, then no hold. Brass is all over the place.
Remember my new brass test with the .44? New brass sucks and is the main reason most factory loads are poor.
Some of my best groups with the .44 are done with old brass and some are near 45 loadings.
Every single case crack I have had was with the first firing and from then on, revolver brass lasts forever. I blamed it on being cheap! :mrgreen: But there is more method to my madness. I am shooting the same brass that I used when I shot 79 out of 80 IHMSA in the early 80's. I have Midway, Federal and Remington brass.
I NEVER work loads with new brass. I am using Hornady brass in the .475 but now if I buy any it is Starline. It is rare for me to buy brass.
One fellow here said he only used new virgin brass for every IHMSA shoot. It is a mistake let alone being so expensive I would never think of it, living on SS. :Fire:
One time I had very old .44 brass so I loaded them and gave them to a friend thinking he would toss them. He is still loading the stuff! [smilie=1: I am not the only cheapskate! :drinks:

[longhorn]

I own my 3rd .454 now and still haven't used up that first and only box of factory ammo--but they sure make nice minimum-chambered .45 Colts!

[Potsy]

I always wanted to play with a Mod. 83 with a .45 Colt cylinder. I've oft wondered if I'd like that combo better than my Bisley. I don't doubt it would be more accurate, I just wonder about the feel of the gun.
That said, I guess a .454 would shoot flatter than my .45 Colt loads, though you can load a .45 colt to pretty much do what a .454 does in an 83.
I just always figured if I needed (my pistol hunting experience is VERY limited) more than a 330 grainer at 1250fps (upper end, my loads aren't near that heavy) I'd look for more boolit diameter and weight as opposed to speed (.500 Linebaugh).

[Bass Ackward]

Yea, but my point is that you can't tell. I bought some new Winchester 44 Spec brass and I had to stop and look at my die setup because I thought something was wrong. I thought I had the regular die and the case needed lubed. It was sizing down bases on 15 BHN bullets. After the first firing, I had to lean on the handle. This stuff is useless for softer slug use and that's what I wanted it for.

So you can never tell what you are going to get. This 357 brass is ideal for soft bullets. Problem is that its .... not what I had in mind.

Soft brass will actually maintain more surface contact on a softer bullet. Sizing dies that go too far and hard brass are the biggest reasons people have trouble with softer lead in guns of good quality.

[44man]

I always wanted to play with a Mod. 83 with a .45 Colt cylinder. I've oft wondered if I'd like that combo better than my Bisley. I don't doubt it would be more accurate, I just wonder about the feel of the gun.
That said, I guess a .454 would shoot flatter than my .45 Colt loads, though you can load a .45 colt to pretty much do what a .454 does in an 83.
I just always figured if I needed (my pistol hunting experience is VERY limited) more than a 330 grainer at 1250fps (upper end, my loads aren't near that heavy) I'd look for more boolit diameter and weight as opposed to speed (.500 Linebaugh).
Good thinking but the .475 has proven to be one exceptional caliber.
The .44 does just great with the .45 Colt just a little behind but the .475 has it all.

[44man]

Yea, but my point is that you can't tell. I bought some new Winchester 44 Spec brass and I had to stop and look at my die setup because I thought something was wrong. I thought I had the regular die and the case needed lubed. It was sizing down bases on 15 BHN bullets. After the first firing, I had to lean on the handle. This stuff is useless for softer slug use and that's what I wanted it for.

So you can never tell what you are going to get. This 357 brass is ideal for soft bullets. Problem is that its .... not what I had in mind.

Soft brass will actually maintain more surface contact on a softer bullet. Sizing dies that go too far and hard brass are the biggest reasons people have trouble with softer lead in guns of good quality.
Now you know soft lead is just not where it is at. Trouble, trouble, trouble. We are shooting a REVOLVER! :kidding:

[Bass Ackward]

Softer bullets require more from the operator. If he has it to give. :grin:

[45r]

I've never had a problem with my 83 shooting any kind of load,it likes everything from mid to fast enough to make your hand hurt like a full case of 296 with 315GC boolits running close to 1700 fps.I use a redding profile crimper and never have pull problems.I get 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards with mid and full power loads.240 XTP j-words going 2000 fps do a real good job shooting flat.That is where the casull does well compared to my 45colt.I love the 45colt but it doesn't shoot 2000 fps.The 83 is a much stronger gun with tight chambers that don't work the brass.Neck sizing is all you need and you don't have a reload that looks like a coke bottle.I like the 83 so much I think about getting another in a different cal but the 454 does everything from slow to fast.If I did it would probably be a 475.

[Ed K]

I like the 83 so much I think about getting another in a different cal but the 454 does everything from slow to fast.If I did it would probably be a 475.

I was thinking the same. I've been on the lookout for a 475 for a long time and then a cheap BFR came by and gave me my 475 fix. Now don't know what to do next about another 83!

I have no problem with the 454 at all. I use it in a narrow range: no Colt loads (use a smaller gun for that), start at around Ruger-only loads and stop a little above there. I have no use for more power than that. So loaded from about half to 2/3 throttle with HS6 or 2400 - no fast powders, no H110/WW296. I neither have the ignition problems some complain of or the bullet pull issues being discussed here either. I'm very happy with it. Some suggest I have to load it to 65Kpsi. No I don't... others can do that if they want to.

[44man]

I was thinking the same. I've been on the lookout for a 475 for a long time and then a cheap BFR came by and gave me my 475 fix. Now don't know what to do next about another 83!

I have no problem with the 454 at all. I use it in a narrow range: no Colt loads (use a smaller gun for that), start at around Ruger-only loads and stop a little above there. I have no use for more power than that. So loaded from about half to 2/3 throttle with HS6 or 2400 - no fast powders, no H110/WW296. I neither have the ignition problems some complain of or the bullet pull issues being discussed here either. I'm very happy with it. Some suggest I have to load it to 65Kpsi. No I don't... others can do that if they want to.
Actually, this is where the round belongs. It just does not need full power, just over .45 loads.
Ignition problems only happen with starting loads of slow powder and go away with full loads but accuracy is lacking with the funny ignition of a SR primer. I have made the gun work very well with cut down .460 brass and a LP mag primer.
If I ever bought a .454, which might be never, I would not use .454 brass.
HS-6 and 2400 will not need a LP mag primer either and a 150 Fed will work just fine.

[44man]

Softer bullets require more from the operator. If he has it to give. :grin:
Soft boolits need a gun without a gap, jump or forcing cone. They DO make single shots and rifles you know! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Heavy lead]

I've located a very gently used BFR .454 in 6.5" barrel. I really wanted to get another .475 with the shorter barrel to leave unscoped, but at $600 I'm grabbing this up, anyway I'm with .44 man here, I have one 454 now and just don't see the point, just wish it were chambered short for the Colt, I'm either going to find some 460 brass and cut down or just buy some nickeled Colt brass and load it up for it. Anybody had any accuracy problems using the short Colt case in 454 chambered guns? Don't like the idea, but it maybe just my fallacy in that.

[45r]

I shoot loads with HS-6 or trail boss with casull brass and never have a need to shoot colt brass with the accuracy I get.I shoot the rcbs 250PB with TB and get groups that have all the boolits touching and they are easy on recoil.I don't get where people say they can't get accuracy with the 83.Mine shoots every load I've tried in it well,if someone can't handle 10 grains TB under a 250PB they might want to stick with a 38 special.You don't have to hot rod the casull to have fun with it but if you want to shoot very fast loads it can handle it without loosening up.Mine was made in 1988,maybe they aren't as good now but I think they still outshoot most revolvers in competition.I use fed and rem primers and get groups under 2 inchs at 50 yards with a red dot sight with any load.It even would do it with iron sights before but the dot sight works better for hunting in low light.I'm sure that if you try to shoot 65 thou PSI loads in other revolvers it wouldn't stay accurate very long,if it didn't blow up first.

[44man]

I shoot loads with HS-6 or trail boss with casull brass and never have a need to shoot colt brass with the accuracy I get.I shoot the rcbs 250PB with TB and get groups that have all the boolits touching and they are easy on recoil.I don't get where people say they can't get accuracy with the 83.Mine shoots every load I've tried in it well,if someone can't handle 10 grains TB under a 250PB they might want to stick with a 38 special.You don't have to hot rod the casull to have fun with it but if you want to shoot very fast loads it can handle it without loosening up.Mine was made in 1988,maybe they aren't as good now but I think they still outshoot most revolvers in competition.I use fed and rem primers and get groups under 2 inchs at 50 yards with a red dot sight with any load.It even would do it with iron sights before but the dot sight works better for hunting in low light.I'm sure that if you try to shoot 65 thou PSI loads in other revolvers it wouldn't stay accurate very long,if it didn't blow up first.
It is not the gun used, it is all the strange loads that they sell. We have had jacketed loads jump crimp and tie up a RH with one shot.
It is strange to see a bullet sticking out the front of the cylinder as much as we have seen. Now the 83 has a shorter cylinder so you really need to test before hunting.
You are so much better off loading your own.
See, this is where Bass confuses me with the soft lead thing. Just how does one have case tension strong enough for the .454 unless you shoot pipsqueek loads????
We shoot all the way up to the .50 Alaskan and the .454 is causing the most trouble in ANY gun. The same brands of factory ammo are not causing any problems in the other calibers.
I made molds for all of the big ones but so far all I have loaded is the .500 JRH and they shoot great without pulling boolits.
Why is the .454 so hard on boolits?

[45r]

I use redding 454casull dies and their profile crimper.Some dies for the 45colt expand the brass to much.I have several 45colt dies but always use the redding casull dies for my 83,they don't expand too much and with the PC it holds.I use redding PC dies for 357,41 and 44 also.They put a better crimp on for me.The factory casull ammo is usually going around 55 thou PSI and that gives the sharp recoil and blast.The orange blast coming off them is quite a sight when its getting low light.I don't use factory ammo.I think HT WW is good for full power loads but I've gotten good results with AC WW for mid loads going 1200 fps or less.I've shot AC WW GC boolits up to 1600 fps in my 83 with good accuracy but the chambers are so tight that helps.I don't do it much since its probably harder on the cone.I think HT boolits are better,I've got great accuracy with Oregon trail boolits and they're real hard.If you don't push AC GC boolits too hard they work well also as long as the revolver is reasonably tight.Soft boolits in a loose gun doesn't shoot well but a long hard boolit will.I agree that hard is better in most cases but soft can shoot with certain loads and guns.Most people are happy with a gun that shoots couple inchs at 25 or 4 at 50.That's better than what most can hold when hunting so it still works.If I get 2 inchs at 50 I'm happy and it works when hunting.The thing I like about the 83 is it doesn't loosen up at all and likes everything shot out of it.Maybe I got a real good one.It would be the last revolver I'd part with.

[44man]

I use my Hornady .45 Colt dies and the expander is just right with great tension.
Redding makes great dies and these two brands are all I buy. I have many profile crimp dies and they work as long as the boolit is not oversize for a gun. I test a boolit to see if it enters the top of the die.
I have never needed the full profile, just use it for a roll crimp.
I wish Redding would make revolver dies with collars, My BR .44 dies use collars. No need to expand with the right size, just made a flare die that does not expand. It would be easy for Redding to make a flare die.
I never got accuracy with RCBS .44 or .357 dies without changing the expanders.
The worst die I bought was a 45-70 neck die from Lyman, it does not size hardly at all and boolits fall in. Works fine for my BPCR with large boolits but it fails in the revolver. M expanders can ruin revolver accuracy too.
Other then a .45 Colt expander from RCBS, all others expand too much and are way too long. It is best to have a short expander so a boolit enters a portion of the brass that has not been enlarged.
Anytime neck tension is lightened too much accuracy goes away and I have to wonder if a lot of the lubes I tested bad were just too slippery?
One thing I found with the .454 factory loads was they use a hard, green lube that breaks out of the grooves. No leading troubles though. Seen a lot of blue lube that half falls out of the grooves too.
I love it that all of us can load the .454 or anything else without trouble but it is so hard to buy dependable ammo.

[BackWoods Billy]

Remember my new brass test with the .44? New brass sucks and is the main reason most factory loads are poor.
Some of my best groups with the .44 are done with old brass and some are near 45 loadings.
Every single case crack I have had was with the first firing and from then on, revolver brass lasts forever. I blamed it on being cheap! :mrgreen: But there is more method to my madness. I am shooting the same brass that I used when I shot 79 out of 80 IHMSA in the early 80's. I have Midway, Federal and Remington brass.
I NEVER work loads with new brass. I am using Hornady brass in the .475 but now if I buy any it is Starline. It is rare for me to buy brass.
One fellow here said he only used new virgin brass for every IHMSA shoot. It is a mistake let alone being so expensive I would never think of it, living on SS. :Fire:
One time I had very old .44 brass so I loaded them and gave them to a friend thinking he would toss them. He is still loading the stuff! [smilie=1: I am not the only cheapskate! :drinks:
I was thinking about asking you about the brass today.I use mine untill the neck starts to crack after all the cripping.Then I toss it in the trash bucket thinking maybe I "should" save it if I ever wanted to cut it down for .44 special target loads.LOL. So I guess I found my answer about how many times I can use it.. Will the old brass hold a good tension On the boolit?
Thanks.

[44man]

I was thinking about asking you about the brass today.I use mine untill the neck starts to crack after all the cripping.Then I toss it in the trash bucket thinking maybe I "should" save it if I ever wanted to cut it down for .44 special target loads.LOL. So I guess I found my answer about how many times I can use it.. Will the old brass hold a good tension On the boolit?
Thanks.
Yes, I get good tension and even the GG's can be detected through the brass.
I can't remember ever having a split .44 or .45 but .475 brass is still up in the air. I don't know how the Hornady brass will do in the end. I have not reached enough loadings yet to tell. I have to flare them a little more because boolits are .476" to .478" if aged longer.
I suppose the flare would do more work hardening then the crimp itself. Only time will tell.
I have a bad habit of using the same box of brass over and over and over. Then maybe the same 20 will be used way more then the rest.

[unclebill]

i havent had the jumping crimp problem. (yet)
mostly i look in my loadbooks for whatever is hi-lighted as the most accurate load and use it.
i love shooting my raging bull
and i do put a fair amount of barnburner .45colt loads through it.

[white eagle]

I had a SRH in 454 @ one point and now that you mention it I do remember
boolits tying up the cylinder
I never shot it much still have ammo for it
now I have found the 45 colt fills my needs way better

[44man]

i havent had the jumping crimp problem. (yet)
mostly i look in my loadbooks for whatever is hi-lighted as the most accurate load and use it.
i love shooting my raging bull
and i do put a fair amount of barnburner .45colt loads through it.
If we stop and think about it, the heavier the gun the less jump you can have too. Even mounting a scope can help stop it.
The .454 seems to have a very quick, sharp recoil.
It is a strange caliber where Freedom loads work and never pull but a lot of those others will. Jacketed factory loads hold but a lot of the cast give problems.
I drilled out .454 brass for a LP mag primer and shot PB boolits to 55,000 psi without a problem using a Fed 155. Not even a flat primer and boolits held.
It really turns into a normal loading procedure with a LP primer and many powders.
If I can say one thing I don't like, it is just the SR primer.
This is Jerry's .454. The left target was shot with his loads and the right was with my boolit. 50 yards from bags. I only had 4 cases drilled for the LP primer.

[44man]

Darn, pushed the wrong button. Here is the picture.

[unclebill]

If we stop and think about it, the heavier the gun the less jump you can have too. Even mounting a scope can help stop it.
The .454 seems to have a very quick, sharp recoil.
.

hmmm
maybe thats it.
the raging bull is 63 oz. empty

[Groo]

Groo here
Most of my shooting with the 454 has been with FA brass with LP pockets.
Any thing from 200gr jackets at 2k to 340gr cast at 1500 + and never had a problem..
Maybe its the original pacific dies I got from FA or the LP cases.
Normal 45colt dies or factory 45colt will not even fit in the chambers.[early FA adj sight gun]
Maybe the 460 brass is the key..

[44man]

Groo here
Most of my shooting with the 454 has been with FA brass with LP pockets.
Any thing from 200gr jackets at 2k to 340gr cast at 1500 + and never had a problem..
Maybe its the original pacific dies I got from FA or the LP cases.
Normal 45colt dies or factory 45colt will not even fit in the chambers.[early FA adj sight gun]
Maybe the 460 brass is the key..
.454 brass is just fine. I made this simple cutter to open pockets but I have a lathe.

[stubshaft]

Groo here
Most of my shooting with the 454 has been with FA brass with LP pockets.
Any thing from 200gr jackets at 2k to 340gr cast at 1500 + and never had a problem..
Maybe its the original pacific dies I got from FA or the LP cases.
Normal 45colt dies or factory 45colt will not even fit in the chambers.[early FA adj sight gun]
Maybe the 460 brass is the key..

I have an early FA83 Premier that will not allow reloads from standard 45LC dies to chamber. I have kept records of the amount of rounds through it and have had only 1 boolit creep out and tie up the gun in 9,457 tries. The majority of my shooting is with a 300gr LBT/LFN ahead of 32.5 #296 with Win SRP.

[saz]

I feel too many just over crimp. It is only there to AID holding a boolit and you should not depend on it for doing all the holding or helping powder burn.
I would bet I use less crimp then anyone without a problem.
Remember that I asked Whitworth why the factory loads were crimped so much! I don't think they have an understanding of the mechanics involved and think they need a very hard crimp.
I have posted a thousand times that case tension holds the boolit and the least crimp you can get away with is best.
If you can hold Lee boolits, you can hold anything.

AMEN 44man! I had an experienced "sixgunner" help me out at the range a long time ago when I first learned to handload. I was crimping the **** outta everything with a Lee FCD (which I DO NOT like) not accomplishing anything. I have Lee dies for both my 44Mag and 454, and I only use a moderate roll crimp set with the seating die even with the tiny Lee crimp groove. I have never had a boolit jump crimp in my 44, and I have fired thousands of heavy loads through my SBH. It is my carry gun up here for fishing, and when I am hunting with my muzzleloaders. IMHO the 44mag is the IDEAL caliber for bear protection in a handgun. If you would ever (god forbid) have to use it for its intended purpose it will more than likely be used very close, so there is plenty of power without all of the brutal and unnecessary recoil generated by some hand cannons.

Now I did say that I own a 454- but it is in a Puma 92 with 16.5" barrel, not a revolver. It is my "camp/backup" gun. I love a levergun and none get my heart going like a 92 winchester. This one is very handy to carry, even more so than a guide gun in 45-70. The recoil is not that bad, considering it is only 6lbs. It holds 8 rounds in the tube so for a bear gun, what more would you need.

I have not had any of the issues yall have talked about with jumping crimp, but maybe because the magazine helps keep the boolit where it is supposed to be? I also have not seen any issues of POI shifts with small charge weight changes either. I use the Remington 7 1/2 primer for all my loads. I tried the CCI (450 I think) small rifle mag, and I did have some issues with misfires. Switched back and I haven't had any issues since. I use it from my trail boss loads (for the kids), to unique (deer and fun loads) up to the bigger loads with Lil Gun and heavy boolits. Not one issue so far. I didnt even have problems with that primer when I was using H-110 with starting loads.

As for brass, all my heavy loads are with WW brass just because I bought a bunch of brass and 2 molds from a guy that was tired of the reciol from his revolver. There was about 200 pieces of new WW, 30 or so starline and 50 hornady pieces. I am not fond of the WW brass- I have had a few split cases already.

I have never owned a revolver in 454, but I have shot my fair share of them and can say that I don't care for the recoil in a handgun. I do love the Casull in a levergun though; perfect balance of power and "pointability" without the bulk of a 45/70. It is one of my all time favorite guns I have ever owned. No complaints from this guy.

[targetshootr]

Well I feel better about selling off my FA now. Even though I had to give it away it was gorgeous and well made but too big for my use and too much trouble to load. Come to think of it, I may as well sell the extry FA barrels n stuff laying around here.

[Frozone]

Maybe the 460 brass is the key..

Tried that, using Star brass, once you trim to length, the case wall thickness has increased unacceptably. You need to ream the cases or they'll swage down a cast bullet. This leaves a ridge in the case wall and quick failure. Reaming out normal 454 brass primer holes is the way to go.

BUT, I have had trouble producing significant differences in accuracy between large or small primers for hunting loads. I'm not sure it makes a real difference.

[44man]

Tried that, using Star brass, once you trim to length, the case wall thickness has increased unacceptably. You need to ream the cases or they'll swage down a cast bullet. This leaves a ridge in the case wall and quick failure. Reaming out normal 454 brass primer holes is the way to go.

BUT, I have had trouble producing significant differences in accuracy between large or small primers for hunting loads. I'm not sure it makes a real difference.
I used Hornady .460 brass and have Starline .454 brass. I have made every measurement that I can and brass thickness is exactly the same for both all the way past seated boolit bases.
Go down farther and the .454 brass is actually thicker near the flash hole.

[ole 5 hole group]

I use cut down Starline 460 brass for the 454 and have experienced no brass problems - except for the initial cost.

[HiVelocity]

Well, I've tried them all, love them all..............saying that, "All" of the handguns I've shot, or owned, I loved. I wish I had all them back sitting before me.

Like many others here, I'm partial to the 45 Colt and the 454. I have a couple bullet molds that I cast for use in both. Just my $.02 worth.

HV in SC

PS- Having lived in Alaska for 6 years, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable using the 454 with the bullet I currently cast for. (See below) MiHa is "the" man.

[Lloyd Smale]

I too have had no problems with 460 brass other then its time consuming to make even with my rcbs power trimmer.
I use cut down Starline 460 brass for the 454 and have experienced no brass problems - except for the initial cost.

[44man]

I too have had no problems with 460 brass other then its time consuming to make even with my rcbs power trimmer.
I agree, more expense and work and is why I made the pocket cutter.
.454 brass is STRONG. There is nothing it can't do with the correct primer.

[odoh]

. . . . . . . .
It is a strange caliber where Freedom loads work and never pull but a lot of those others will. Jacketed factory loads hold but a lot of the cast give problems.
. . . . . .


Have broke down only Speer factory Jacketed load and found black adhesive/sealant on the bullet shank/case interface. Tuff to pull of course

[44man]

Have broke down only Speer factory Jacketed load and found black adhesive/sealant on the bullet shank/case interface. Tuff to pull of course
That is news. Far different then a slippery boolit lube.
There are points of recoil where the brass just can't do what is needed. Too many think that thin hunk of brass will hold anything they can load. 700 gr boolits! Get real.
There is a limit, get over it. Think mechanical and stop using voodoo dolls.