Duplicating the 32 rimfire

[Molly]

FWIW, I thought I'd post something rather interesting that I worked out back in 1995. I had a #4 RB in .32 long and a spare breechblock that I've converted to centerfire, enabling me to shoot .32 Colt ammo in it too. I'd worked up a number of fun loads for it, and enjoyed shooting it.

I also had several hundred rounds of 32 RF ammo, but that's sort of expensive, and I don't like to waste it. And at least in my rifle, the new Navy Arms .32 RF ammo was worthless: It wasn't much better than 'minute of washtub' accurate, even at close range. But the .32 RF was legendary in a bygone generation for its game - getting abilities. So I decided to duplicate the 32 RF load in the 32 Colt CF case. I broke a round of old Union Metallic .32 short ammo down, and found it was an 80g bullet (heeled of course) over 2.4 grains of fine flake smokeless powder. Several rounds established that it had just enough power to penetrate a pressure treated 2x4 (sideways), and dent the board below.

I tried several powders, but found that 2.2 to 2.3 grains of Unique under a 1/8" thick wax wad did the job nicely. The closest match on hand for the 80g bullet was the 85g Lyman 311419, which I used for most testing. It doesn't have a heel, so I couldn't load it in a .32 Colt case. I just dropped it into the chamber before adding a case charged with powder and held together with a wax wad over the powder. The wad (beeswax softened with enough petroleum jelly to keep it from cracking when a case was pushed through it) served to contain the powder charge as well as lube the bullet. This duplicated the ballistics of the .32 RF round to a "T".

This was a great little plinking load for the #4 RB, but it wasn't so great in the squirrel woods because it was such a bother to keep lubed bullets free from pocket lint. But when I found that an unsized bullet would slip into the chamber, I realized the lubing operation could be eliminated, as the wax wad would do the job alone. I just kept one shirt pocket full of unsized bullets and the other one full of .32 Colt Long cases that were loaded with powder and topped with wax wads. It was really very little trouble to drop them in the chamber, one after another. The little rifle wouldn't win any bench matches, but for hunting purposes, accuracy was quite good, while noise was very low, and recoil of course was non-existent. I also got similar results with Lyman 3118 slugs (of wheelweights), and eventually came to favor that bullet in the little boy's rifle.

Unfortunately, my eyesight had faded with age and illness, and I had a real problem focusing on the iron sights and the target together. So until I got a chance to scope the #4, I decided to do the same thing with my #3 Ruger in .30 - 40 Krag. However, I decided to lube the bullet and seat it normally, since I didn't need a heeled bullet for the 30 - 40. But I used a tuft of cotton (~0.2-0.3 g) to hold the powder charge down to the base of the case, where it would be easily ignited.

I figured to start by testing the penetration of a 30 - 40 loaded with 311419 and 2.3g of Unique, just to get an idea how much power loss would result from the lower pressure due to the much larger case. I was astonished to find exactly the same penetration in the pressure treated two by four lumber. Apparently, the more powerful rifle primer makes up for the larger case volume. In any case, it worked fine, and I suspect the same formula will work pretty well in most any .30 or .32 caliber rifle case. I put 7 shots through the same hole at about 35 feet from the 30-40, shooting from a rest inside my shop. The eighth shot left it a one - hole group, but opened it up from about 0.35" to about 0.5". (The 'rest' was a rickety old ironing board, and I think I leaned into it at the wrong moment.) But it's a mild report, zero recoil load with plenty of accuracy for the squirrels around here.

A special note on the effectiveness of these loads: I've read that the reason that the .22's replaced the .25 and .32 RF loads was because the .22's offered a flatter trajectory, making it easier to hit game in the woods. While it's quite true that the .22's DO have flatter trajectories, I've noted that they have disadvantages that are largely overlooked today.

A clean hit in a vital area with a .22 means Brunswick Stew on the table, and no mistake. But it also means a sharp "CRACK!" sound that is completely foreign to the woods. It takes a while before the alarm fades and you can hunt effectively again. More often than not, it also means more or less bloodshot meat loss from over expansion of the hig(er) velocity bullet. And that's with good shot placement. But poor bullet placement WILL occur, if only because the dang squirrel moves just as the trigger is pulled. Poor placement results in unnecessary suffering and considerably more disturbance in the woods from the squirrel's struggles, from a second shot, or from the sound of the hunter rushing to deal with the situation.

I actually had ‘twin’ #4 Rolling Blocks: One in .22 LR, and the other in .32 Long, which enabled me to make a good comparison of the two rounds. It has been my experience that the .32 RF (or loads duplicating it) is actually a much superior hunting round in the woods. Granted, it does suffer from a curved trajectory, but you'd be surprised how little difference that makes in the woods, where shots at small game frequently occur at 10 or 20 yards and seldom exceed 35 or 40 yards. And the lower velocity prevents bloodshot meat.

The 32 caliber has well over twice the cross sectional striking area of 22's, which seems to offer considerably greater allowance for aiming error (or just bad luck). A squirrel hit anywhere in the body with a .32 seldom struggles at all. It's usually a 'snap' from the rifle and a resulting 'thump' as the squirrel hits the ground, dead as a doornail. And that's another advantage of the slower .32 round: The low velocity doesn't require the higher pressures that give a .22 such a sharp report. Shoot a .32, and the sound is much like a small twig falling to the ground. There is essentially no disturbance of the woods. I've actually shot squirrels while surrounded by a flock of wild turkeys without alarming the birds. They kept on feeding on the acorns, and I kept on hunting. (BG)

Yes, I like .22's, and I still own - and use - a barrel full of them. (Mostly for targets and teaching gun safety to kids.) But that doesn't mean I can't see their limitations. And yes, I still use them in the woods in spite of those limitations. But for a delightful fall woods ramble and for sheer pleasure, I find the .32's a refreshing change of pace, and a much better overall choice. And the reloads that duplicate their performance lets me ‘re-learn’ the feel and handling of a deer rifle while sharpening my hunting skills. Try it. I think you'll like it.

[bruce drake]

I shoot squirrels with a 7.62x39 bolt rifle with a 130gr boolit and about the same powder load (3.5gr Unique) and I will say you are 100% correct in your assessment of what that bigger boolit can do to squirrels and rabbits.

Bruce

[Marvin S]

Good read. I had all my 32 long RF stolen so had to convert my Favorite to 32 SW Long. I thought the old large rimfires where sure neat and wish someone would make some more reasonable ammo for them.

[woody1]

As I recall, my 311419 is gas checked. Mebe I missed it but were you using it checked or unchecked? Thanks and regards, Woody

[Molly]

As I recall, my 311419 is gas checked. Mebe I missed it but were you using it checked or unchecked? Thanks and regards, Woody

I used it with the gas check, but the cost of GC was a prime mover in my going to 3118 shortly thereafter. 311419 was the closest for weight, but it has such a short bearing length that I figured it needed all the support I could give it.

[NickSS]

I have used the 3118 bulet in my 30-30 for years for small game usually loaded with around 5 gr of Unique. Mine makes more noise but it is a great small game load in the woods. I have to agree that they beat the 22 RF completely for game getting. In a 20 inch carbine they sound like a 22 short and anchor squirrels and rabbits with great ease.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have used the Lyman 313249 and the simiwadcutter of the same weight in 30-30 and 30-06 over 3.5 of Green Dot for a small game load. In the old 1917 it was very effective on small game. I have often thought a 32 S&W rifle would be a fun and effective gun.

[Molly]

...I have often thought a 32 S&W rifle would be a fun and effective gun.

It is indeed, but DO NOT make the same mistake I did. I had a little Colt .32 revolver, and spent several dollars getting it converted into a little revolving rifle, just for squirrel hunting. It was the prettiest little thing you ever saw. But I only shot it ONCE! Bringing the barrel / cylinder gap back so close to my face also meant bringing the gas jet from the cylinder gap close to my face too. My ears rang for an hour! Despite its beauty, it became an instant wall-hanger, and lived there on the wall of my shop being admired by one and all until someone decided they just HAD to have it. I don't think he really believed my story about the ear-splitting report. Or maybe he just intended to shoot it at the range, with ear muffs on every time. I dunno. But I think I may have a clue why the Colt Revolving Rifle was not a big commercial success.

If you ever decide to get one built, get a decent rifle action, put at least an 18 inch barrel on it, and have a ball. I've got one of those small Uberti rolling block actions that is going to go that way some day soon.

[John Taylor]

Brings back memories of a little Crescent rolling block that I made into a 32 S&W using a 308 barrel. The S&W shorts just made a pop sound and every shot would hit a quarter at 25 yards. It's hard to say who copied who with the Crescent and Remington #4. About the only difference I could find is the trigger/breach block/ extractor spring was just the opposite one from the other and the take down is different but mine was a solid frame.

[Mk42gunner]

I have a No. 2 Rolling bloack that I converted to centerfire by modifying a breechblock from one of the RB pistols. Since heel based molds are so common; I have been wondering if the Lee soupcan would work, perhaps by enlarging the gascheck shank a few thousandths. My thinking is that I need to find a workable boolit before I start worrying about reloading dies.

The bore on mine is a little rough. With someof the first batch of Navy Arms .32 Long RF, it leaded badly. With current production Winchester .32 Short Colt it doesn't lead.

Robert

[Eutectic]

FWIW, I thought I'd post something rather interesting that I worked out back in 1995. I had a #4 RB in .32 long and a spare breechblock

Molly,

A most interesting and informative post! I thank you for the information you have shared on a subject where info is quite rare!

Timely too........ For me personally, as I have recently acquired my father's Steven Favorite in .32 Long RF. I can remember shooting it some half century ago with some ammo I had found somewhere; .32 Long RF even hard to find then. It was quite accurate we thought with Longs; not so good with Shorts..

I was pondering modifying a breechblock to centerfire as I discovered your post.
I also pondered chucking bullets into a 5/16" collet and turning a 'heel' on them. Now I think your 'breech seating' method may be the way to go! I have a thousand or so old Alberts .32 98gr Hollow base wadcutters that mic .314" which might made a dandy small game bullet!

I plan to save all (not many) of my fired rimfire cases. Even finding someone to re-prime the RF case if possible would be an interesting option.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.

Eutectic

[Molly]

...The bore on mine is a little rough. With someof the first batch of Navy Arms .32 Long RF, it leaded badly. With current production Winchester .32 Short Colt it doesn't lead.
Robert

Try putting a few rounds through it using something like 3118 that is lubed with J-B compound. I've done it in several rifles, and have had NO detectable wear on the bore. It won't fill in rust pits, but it will clean them up and turn a dark bore into one that is mirror bright.

[Molly]

Molly,

A most interesting and informative post! I thank you for the information you have shared on a subject where info is quite rare!

...

I plan to save all (not many) of my fired rimfire cases. Even finding someone to re-prime the RF case if possible would be an interesting option.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.
Eutectic

I appreciate the appreciation! (BG) It was an interesting and fun experience all right. But let me caution you against trying to reprime the fired cases. My hair raises at the thought. I've done it. It's NOT a good thing. First of all, most of the priming in those days was mercuric, which leaves traces of mercury in the case when it's fired. Mercury will leave no visible evidence, but it absolutely DESTROYS the strength of the brass on a molecular level. Even if you managed to re-prime the case, it would disintegrate when fired, and give you a face-full (or an eye-full)of gas and metal. Not a good thing.

There two exceptions to the above. Modern new-made ammo won't have mercuric priming, and that problem goes away. But it leaves plenty of others.

The other exception is original loads that used black powder. Black powder generates so much residue that it dilutes the mercury to the vanish point, and the cases are safe from that perspective.

But even if you have safe cases, you have to deal with the priming compound. Believe me, it's nothing to play with. Even tiny amounts are highly destructive when it goes off, and sometimes all it takes is to look at it the wrong way. Pressing it into the hollow rim of a case doesn't bear thinking about. It's done commercially using wet compounds that are spun into place and then dried. Less than a pinch of priming compound would involve you in a fate that could involve the intimate use of a closed casket and would certanly result in exhorbitant increases in your insurance rates. Even the quantity in a single .22 short will do unpleasant things to your fingertips if you are foolish enough to try to remove it for re-use in another round. Believe it. I KNOW.

And even if you get past all those difficulties, you still have the problem of dead spots in the rim that have no compound because it was crimped shut by previous shots.

Believe me, you're a lot better off having your breechblock converted to centerfire. It's a LOT cheaper than the doctor, and much more satisfactory in the long run.

[358wcf]

Molly, an excellent article filled with useful experiences and info!
Sounds an awful lot like the 310 Cadet cartridge, doesn't it? My cadets have been thumping a lot of paper this year, so I'll get them out in the alfalfa on the ground-squirrels shortly.
Little rifles, lead boolits, small charges of Unique- What fun!
Small game hunting is good for the soul!

358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[Eutectic]

Even finding someone to re-prime the RF case if possible would be an interesting option.

WOW!

Please don't take my quote above to mean I would try re-priming rimfire myself much less recommend it for anyone else!!

By 'someone' in the quoted sentence above, I was referring to a rimfire manufacturer that might re-prime .32's wet by spinning the case as is done by commercial loaders for priming .22RF.

Molly makes a good point on old brass as well. Not worth the chance...

The .32 Short Colt using Molly's method of 'breech seating' the bullet first would probably mean the case wouldn't need resized at the low pressures for duplicating .32 Rimfire. No seating die either... A #10 (or#23) RCBS shell holder should prime using my hand tool....... Biggest job is modifying the breechbolt..... Well, off to the milling machine.....

Thanks again Molly for 'planting' the seed!

Eutectic

[Molly]

>By 'someone' in the quoted sentence above, I was referring to a rimfire manufacturer that might re-prime .32's wet by spinning the case as is done by commercial loaders for priming .22RF.

>Molly makes a good point on old brass as well. Not worth the chance...

Which is exactly why no manufacturer would even consider repriming old cases. MUCH safer to just make up new cases that are known to be safe. And even there, it takes a 'run' of millions of rounds to make it worth the trouble, which is why there isn't much in the way of new RF ammo on the market.

>The .32 Short Colt using Molly's method of 'breech seating' the bullet first would probably mean the case wouldn't need resized at the low pressures for duplicating .32 Rimfire. No seating die either... A #10 (or#23) RCBS shell holder should prime using my hand tool....... Biggest job is modifying the breechbolt..... Well, off to the milling machine.....

The 'breech seating' consisted of nothing more than dropping the loose, unsized, unlubricated cast bullet into the chamber and then dropping the charged case in on top of it. Ummm. I guess I wasn't explicit enough with my loading information. I made it a goal to have a combination of case length and bullet bearing length that filled the chamber. Depending on the particular bullet I was playing with at the time, sometimes I had to trim a .32 Colt Long case back to achieve this fit. I never had any need to resize the cases either. And you can prime them with a 32 S&W shellholder. It's a real hoot!

The biggest thing you have to watch out for is the temptation to jack up the load "just a little', because these useful loads are so darn quiet. Don't be deceived! These little popgun loads have the power to go through the side of a 55 gallon steel drum and put a good dent in the other side.

If you do jack up the load, you lose the quietness that is so nice in the woods. That's OK if you just want to wander meadows for groundhogs. Just don't exceed standard loading data for the .32 S&W CF long: These old guns were never designed or intended to handle anything more than black powder pressures. I wouldn't want anyone to get carried away with enthusiasm over my postings, and maybe damage a good old gun - or a good old eyeball!!

Molly

[Mk42gunner]

Try putting a few rounds through it using something like 3118 that is lubed with J-B compound. I've done it in several rifles, and have had NO detectable wear on the bore. It won't fill in rust pits, but it will clean them up and turn a dark bore into one that is mirror bright.

Thanks for the idea, I have the group buy 314-120 that Wilbird ran a few years ago. My bore is bright, just rough. Of course the partial box of NAvay Arms ammo I got with the rifle had been rattling around for a long time, maybe the lube was beaten off of it.


The 'breech seating' consisted of nothing more than dropping the loose, unsized, unlubricated cast bullet into the chamber and then dropping the charged case in on top of it. Ummm. I guess I wasn't explicit enough with my loading information. I made it a goal to have a combination of case length and bullet bearing length that filled the chamber. Depending on the particular bullet I was playing with at the time, sometimes I had to trim a .32 Colt Long case back to achieve this fit. I never had any need to resize the cases either. And you can prime them with a 32 S&W shellholder. It's a real hoot!

I just tried on of the above mentioned boolits in the chamber and measured the distance to the base of the boolit with my dial calipers. It was .970" from the face of the barrel to the base of the bullet, not going to be much brass trimming on this rifle.

Semi-fixed ammuntion just seems to be a PITA for small arms. Maybe I ought to just rechamber it for the S&W Long.

I kind of like the idea of a rifle in .32 H&R Magnum, but I really don't want to spontaniously disassemble a good rifle through stupidity.

Robert

[Molly]

>I kind of like the idea of a rifle in .32 H&R Magnum, but I really don't want to spontaniously disassemble a good rifle through stupidity.

You might want to consider a Savage or a Marlin in 32-20 first. Same power, but no problem with overloading the gun.

Question is, what are you going to use it for? It's got too much power for squirrels and rabbits, not enough for deer or elk. (BG)

[Mk42gunner]

You might want to consider a Savage or a Marlin in 32-20 first. Same power, but no problem with overloading the gun.

Question is, what are you going to use it for? It's got too much power for squirrels and rabbits, not enough for deer or elk. (BG)

Yeah , that's why it still has the RF chamber and a separate breechblock to shoot the centerfire Colt's. I don't like the idea of purposely overloading guns.

The idea of reaming the chamber got really set back when I bought a No 26 Husqvarna in .25-20 this spring,or I can download the 7.62X39 Mini-Mauser. I just like the older style guns better than newer ones.

Around here the only actual use I can think of would be calling predators, and then a repeater makes a whole lot more sense than a single shot.


Robert

[Bret4207]

Nice to see someone else appreciates the old and slow small game rounds. The 32 S+W in a rifle barrel is a far different animal than in a 2" revolter. I've dropped porkies with a single shot to the head using the 311316 and a smidge of SR7625 from 32 S+W. That slow moving boolit still penetrates well. Go up a step to the 32 S+W Long and you have about the perfect squirrel rifle. Go up another step to the 32 Mag/327 or 32-20 and you find you have to load way down or use something like the 311359 with it's pointed shape to avoid cutting bushytails in half or 3 pieces.

I wish I could find 4 or 5 #4 Remington RB's and a Stevens Marksman in 25 Long. I'd be able to fix them up like I want. Actually, at this point I;d just be happy finding an affordable 3/4-13/16" octagon 32 cal barrel in good condition so I could fix my #4!

[Nobade]

This thread is very timely. I am working on a #4 right now. I bought it cheap because the bore was a sewer pipe. I already had a 32 H&R reamer with removable pilots to work on either 30 or 32 caliber barrels, so that's what it gets chambered for. I got one of Redman's liners from Brownells to restore the bore, and converted the block to centerfire. I plan on using mainly black powder in this rifle, but may try Trail Boss for a BP duplicate load also for squirrels since it would be quieter. For bullets I have one of Dick Dastardly's 75gr. biglube molds, which holds plenty of lube for black powder use. I figure I'll get this rifle up and running, and if it shoots well then work on the refinishing and make it pretty. Or leave it old and patina'd as it is and just shoot it. That will be a decision for down the road. I guess I'll never sell it, wouldn't want anyone using it with a full smokeless load, but as long as I am around it should work fine loaded light.

[Bret4207]

Okay- first off don't chamber that for 32 Mag, not a good idea at all. Chamber it short for the 32 Long and find a way to cut the rim. Any guy with a lathe can do it. The 32 Long is a whole 'nuther critter out of a rifle barrel. One round of 32 Mag will take that #4 apart in spectacular fashion.

Second- that Redmond liner needs a 13mm hole drilled to fit. DO NOT use a non-piloted drill bit. In fact you should have the barrel drilled in a lathe. When you get done you'll have less than 1/8-3/16" between the hole and the barrel flats. If the drill bit flexes a bit it'll chew right out through the side of the barrel. don't ask how I know this.

You might be better off having a liner installed or at least the hole drilled by someone with the right equipment if you don't have it and the judgment and patience to do it. There are no replacement barrels for these anymore and Green Mt. doesn't make the small octagon 32's anymore either.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have been wondering what twist would be best for a 32S&W or long in a rifle. Once I had several 7.5x55 barrels that I bought for as I rember 3.00 each. They are now gone but I might know where there is a takeoff 30 cal. barrel. I had made a trapdoor action in one of those barrels, I have a few more tools now I don't think it would take as long.

[Multigunner]

Theres a chamber insert available that allows use of a .22 rimfire nailgun blank to be used to fire a No.1 buckshot in .32 rimfire guns.
Two friends have well preserved .32 RF revolvers, one an 1874 Remington, the other a Forehand&Wadsworth.
I don't think that adapter would be suitable for the revolvers, but might work okay for a rifle.
The adapter has an offset chamber that puts the .22 rim in position to be struck by the firing pin. The front of the chamber holds the round ball in place.

Might be worth a try if no .32 RF ammo is available.

[StrawHat]

I remember an article by Ed Harris in which he wrote about converting a Remington 788 to 32 Long. I did not see the need for a bolt action 32 but a single shot is a great idea. Not that I need another project!

[w30wcf]

Molly,
Thank you for starting this neat thread and sharing your information on the 32 Colt.
Several years ago I found an 1892 Marlin in 32 Colt at a reasonable price. After reading about it in a 1905 Marlin catalog a few years before that, I was enthused about obtaining one.

I found a few boxes of circa 1960's factory center fire cartridges and they shot aok giving 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards which wasn't too bad considering the rifle's somewhat rough bore. Dissected cartridges contained 2.0 grs. of what appeared to be "Bullseye" powder.

The original 32 Colt cartridge used a heel type bullet and looked like an overgrown 22 with the bullet diameter being .312" or so. Circa 1960's ammo used a hollow base heal bullet which was .299" diameter. Upon ignition, the hollow base bullet upset to fill the bore.....well, at least most of the time..... I did have some fliers that opened some of those groups to 5+"(!).

Anyway, after some deliberation and testing, I decided to cut the cases back to .78" (length of the original 32 Long Colt case) from the .91" length of the 1960's cases that used hollow based bullets.

The correct bullet was Ideal's 299153 which replicated the original 32 Long Colt bullet, but I decided to use as fired cases that fit the chamber much better. So then the question was, what do I do for a bullet? I had a couple of lighter plain based bullet molds, but what do I do about putting a heal on the bullets?

To start with, I made a .313” collet for my lathe and turned the last driving band down to .305” diameter which was a snug fit in a fired case. That worked well but was a bit too labor intensive for any volume production. Then, one day, I tried running a bullet backwards into a 30 caliber bumping die (.302” / .312”) that had a nice taper between the two diameters. That decreased the diameter of the base band to be a very nice fit into a fired case.:D

Bullet pics:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/32LCbulletsjpg.jpg
....82 gr. factory hollow base used in .91" cartridge case
....................90 gr. factory heel bullet used in .78" cartridge case (Ideal / Lyman 299153)
..................................98 gr. NEI heel bullet*used in .91" cartridge case (Gatofeo design)
.............................................facto ry wooden shot carrier
.................................................. ......93 gr. Ideal / Lyman 311244 w/swaged tapered heel (.78" case)
.................................................. ....................93 gr. Ideal / Lyman 311245 w/ swaged tapered heel (.78 case)
.................................................. ..............................90 gr. Hornady SWC w/swaged tapered heel and nose reshaped (.78 case)

cartridge pic:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/32LCHandloaded.jpg
..90 Hornady SWC
..........311244
.....................311245
...............................311245 black powder

factory cartridges pic:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/32LCjpg.jpg
.... W.R.A. CO. black powder
..............Navy Arms
.......................Canuck
.................................REM-UMC Shot Cartridge
.............................................Peter s Semi Smokeless
.................................................. .......R-P
.................................................. ..............Western

It has been an interesting and continuing journey.........

w30wcf

[45 2.1]

Theres a chamber insert available that allows use of a .22 rimfire nailgun blank to be used to fire a No.1 buckshot in .32 rimfire guns.
Two friends have well preserved .32 RF revolvers, one an 1874 Remington, the other a Forehand&Wadsworth.
I don't think that adapter would be suitable for the revolvers, but might work okay for a rifle.
The adapter has an offset chamber that puts the .22 rim in position to be struck by the firing pin. The front of the chamber holds the round ball in place.

Might be worth a try if no .32 RF ammo is available.

You know the source for one of these?

[Multigunner]

You know the source for one of these?

I'll do a search later to see if I can find these again. I looked these up a couple of years ago when the Remington pocket revolver was brought to me for cleaning and to look up its value. It had been found in a strong box while the family settled the estate of the owner. Mighty nice piece that, with a battered firing pin being the only damage, about 90% original finish and in decent working condition. I'd have got it for myself if I knew of a steady supply of black powder .32 RF.
I hear that the smokeless .32 RF can damage the older BP revolvers.

PS
I have an old article on the Marlin .32 lever action that has interchangeable firing pin position to allow use of either RF or CF. That would be a very nice rifle in this class. Guess the RF was on the way out then, or the centerfire option appealed to handloaders.

[Mk42gunner]

You know the source for one of these?

I think it is Dixie Gun Works. I was looking shortly after I bought my No. 2 Rolling Block.

They were and maybe still are available for most of the larger rimfires. IIRC they came in lots of six. I saw some for a 36?? cal rimfire at a farm auction last month.

Robert

[Nobade]

Hi Bret, I made a liner drill from a 13mm regular one I got from MSC. Held it in a collet, turned the pilot section down with carbide tooling, then ground the relief and cutting flutes by hand. Soldered to an extension, it worked slick. The hole followed the bore and there is no step at all where they meet in the middle. I cleaned and degreased everything and epoxied the liner in with ProBed 2000 epoxy. The chamber and crown are already cut, so the next step is the cutout for the extractor once I have time to deal with it.
As for ammo, as I said I will be using it strictly with black powder. (Ocasionally with TrailBoss, but not often. A 70% load of that will duplicate black powder pressures.)I am well aware of what would happen if a full power H&R mag was fired in it. I am not going to go there! But the biglube 75gr. bullets or #0 buckshot propelled by FFFg make a nice load. I plan on zeroing the sights for 50 yards, since it should be pretty close inside of that and past that I can't see a squirrel very well anyway. But mainly it will be for my youngest daughter to have a centerfire she can shoot at the range. She has her little .22, but wishes she could shoot a centerfire like the big kids. This rifle is small enough to let her play too.

[Mk42gunner]

Well I tried Molly's loading technique yesterday, with an Ideal 313445, finger lubed with FWFL and miniscule amounts of 231, (1.5 and 1.8 grains). meither were as powerful as Winchester factory .32 Short Colt loads.

It was raining so all I did was function check, (you know, poke it out the door and see if you can hit the tree). A 9mm shellholder served to deprime, and one for a .25-20 worked in the RCBS handprimer to seat the primers.

I will have to try this again when I have more time.

Robert

[Molly]

Well I tried Molly's loading technique yesterday,

It was raining so all I did was function check, (you know, poke it out the door and see if you can hit the tree).

I will have to try this again when I have more time.
Robert

Well? Don't leave us hanging. Did you hit the tree? (VBG)

Interesting that a 231 load didn't do a bit better, but who knows what differences there might have been between your gun and mine. But work up a load to suit your rifle and your taste, and let us know the details, OK?

[Mk42gunner]

Yes Molly, I hit the tree. Not that that is hard to do; it is a big sumac about three feet in diamaeter ten feet from the door.

I am planning to set up the chronograph to compare loads. I should have more time fro projects, since school started today.

Robert

[Molly]

Yes Molly, I hit the tree. Not that that is hard to do; it is a big sumac about three feet in diamaeter ten feet from the door.

I am planning to set up the chronograph to compare loads. I should have more time fro projects, since school started today.
Robert

Please excuse the leg-pulling. I was just over-taken by the way you expressed it. I think your sense of humor must have budded off of mine. Or vice-versa.

I'll be really interested in your chronograph results. I never bothered to chronograph my own loads, though now (years later) I wish I had.

[Mk42gunner]

I'm kind of interested, myself. I seem to remember reading that the .32 Long Rimfire is supposed to give around 1000 fps. I think I'll sacrifice one of the Navy Arms rounds to weigh the bullet. then see what the velocity is. I also have most of a box of Winchester .32 Short Colt with an 80 grain heeled bullet.

I'm not planning on trying to get the last fps possible; as long as it is close i'll be happy.

All it will take is a day when my back isn't bothering me, and some time to put a boolit trap together. I don't want to put too many rounds in the tree; with my luck it would fall into my bedroom.

Robert

[Molly]

>I'm kind of interested, myself. I seem to remember reading that the .32 Long Rimfire is supposed to give around 1000 fps. I think I'll sacrifice one of the Navy Arms rounds to weigh the bullet. then see what the velocity is.

May I make a suggestion? Lay down a stack of old magazines say 5 or 6 inches thick, and fire into it with the Navy round. The penetration will give you a good idea of the power, and you can adjust your load to match it. You can also recover the fired Navy Arms bullet for weighing, as it won't lose much if anything in the process. I'd be quite surprised if it gets up to 1000 FPS.

>I also have most of a box of Winchester .32 Short Colt with an 80 grain heeled bullet.

I've got a box each of left-over factory new .32 Colt shorts and longs, if anyone is interested.

>I'm not planning on trying to get the last fps possible; as long as it is close i'll be happy.

That's the right attitude. If I were doing it, I'd go up in small steps until I got a sharper report, then drop back enough to just get a 'snap' when the trigger is pulled.

Molly

[geargnasher]

Molly, your timing is impeccable! I confiscated a wonderful, terribly beat-up old #4 takedown .32rf from the dusty depths of my dad's gun closet because I wanted to see if it could ever be made to shoot again. This gun has no rifling left for the first 6" of the barrel, and the front part of the chamber and where the throat used to be is just a big eroded mess, so it's junk. The receiver and all parts are in very good shape though, all the pins are tight and the works work. The barrel is a little "wallered out" where it fits into the receiver, but the receiver itself isn't hourglassed and the barrel locking cam is in good condition.

My first thought was rebarrel it in .22 and weld up the extractor and cut a .22 rf relief in it. But I couldn't find a barrel of the correct contour. Then I checked into liners, but the only one that made sense was a .22lr due to the rimfire block, and the firing pin was still a bit iffy. The plan was to cut off the breech end to remove the original turned-down part that locks into the receiver and have it remachined off-center slightly to bring the .22 rim down about .020" for a perfect alignment with the .32 firing pin. I had just about talked myself into buying a .22 lr liner and finish reamer, and in fact have already purchased a 12" non-piloting .315" drill bit from Snap-on, when I read this thread. Before someone climbs my tree about the non-piloting bit, a .22 liner is .312" OD, which means I knock what is left of the rifling out of this tube and I'm golden. Except the chamber is about .318"x.322", old soft iron, and has a .330" crater just forward of the chamber. Seems like a lot to fill with Acra-Glass, but it's just a .22.

After reading this, I'm convinced I'd be much better off converting to centerfire. I have a .32 S&W Long revolver (about as good as the #4 except it shoots), and had already compared rims before I decided on going .22. We're awfully short on competent, well-tooled gunsmiths here, but do have a good machine shop. I'm thinking now about buying a .32 liner, piloted bit, .32 S&W Long chamber reamer, and having the machine shop square the receiver face, cut off and set back the barrel, leaving about 1/16" extra for me to play with getting the headspace and extractor fitted just right. That leaves one critical thing, and I need someone to point me in the right direction: What does converting to centerfire involve? Weld up the block and drill a new hole and make a new pin at a steeper angle? machining a groove in the breech block face, upward from the rf firing pin hole and making an "L" shaped, recessed firing pin with a teat on the tip so it can ride in the rf guide in the block? I haven't managed to get the cross pin out of the breech block to remove the original firing pin, but it's been soaking for a couple weeks.

I've wanted to shoot this gun since I was a kid, and I'd love to make it work again, especially in centerfire. I'd like to shoot something without needing "ears" for once.

Gear

[Molly]

Hi geargnasher

>Molly, your timing is impeccable! I confiscated a wonderful, terribly beat-up old #4 takedown .32rf from the dusty depths of my dad's gun closet because I wanted to see if it could ever be made to shoot again. ...
After reading this, I'm convinced I'd be much better off converting to centerfire. I have a .32 S&W Long revolver (about as good as the #4 except it shoots), ...I'm thinking now about buying a .32 liner, piloted bit, .32 S&W Long chamber reamer, and having the machine shop square the receiver face, cut off and set back the barrel, ...

(BG) Glad to be of service. I think you'll like the results of what you're doing.

>I'm thinking now about buying a .32 liner, piloted bit, .32 S&W Long chamber reamer, and having the machine shop square the receiver face, cut off and set back the barrel, leaving about 1/16" extra for me to play with getting the headspace and extractor fitted just right.

You know, If I were going that route, I'd think seriously about digging our an old springfield 30 caliber barrel and having it turned to fit the action after they cut the chamber off. Or Gun Parts Corp has some VERY reasonably priced blanks. You could probably get away with about $50 for the whole kit and kaboodle. Chambered for .32 S&W long, you could use all the .30 cast bullets there are out there, and it should be a fine rifle.

As far as getting the headspace exactly right, it's really easy: Just coat the barrel tenon with acraglass (or some other tough epoxy) and degrease the barrel hole before sliding the tenon in until it butts up against the (closed and locked) breechblock. Let it set and harden, and you're done.

>That leaves one critical thing, and I need someone to point me in the right direction: What does converting to centerfire involve? Weld up the block and drill a new hole and make a new pin at a steeper angle? machining a groove in the breech block face, upward from the rf firing pin hole and making an "L" shaped, recessed firing pin with a teat on the tip so it can ride in the rf guide in the block?

I converted mine to CF as follows:

1. Take a bore fitting rod and grind a sharp point on it. Then harden it so the point will las a little bit.
2. Drop the rod down the barrel after you close the breech and lock it with the hammer. The point on the rod will mark center on the breechblock. Do this several times, so you have a good clean mark.
3. Take the breechblock out, and strip it down. There are only three parts: The breech, the firing pin, and a cross-pin that holds the firing pin in place.
4. You've gotta be very careful here: Invert the breechblock and clamp it in a drill press vice. You will be able to see into the firing pin groove like this. Align it so that the tip of the drill will exit the face exactly at the center mark. I did this by standing a tiny vertical bit and alligning it exactly where the bit in the chuck came down. Then I set the breechblock so that the centerpunch mark was centered on the small bit. This guaranteed that the hole I was about to drill through would come out in the center of the face of the breechblock.

5. Take a small bit (I used one to fit a Lyman decapping pin) and drill through. (Sure hope you had it aligned right! If not, fill it with silver solder and try again.)
6. Now take a slightly larger bit and drill a countersink hole to accomodate the head of the decapping pin.
7. Now grind off the firing pin back into the body. Grind at an angle about right for the head of the firing pin to bear squarely on the ground surface of the firing pin.
8. Push the firing pin as far forward as it will go, to push the decapping pin out the face of the breechblock, so you can check protrusion. If not OK, grind the length of the decapping pin to your taste.
9. Reassemble and insert in the action.
10. Load a round, close the breech and point the gun in a safe direction.
11. Pull the trigger. The hammer will hit the (old) firing pin, which will hit the decapping pin and drive it up, which (being the new firing pin) will hit the primer.
BANG.

I never once had a misfire from this setup, though I have to admit that it's a 'shade tree mechanic' approach. But it works well.

>I've wanted to shoot this gun since I was a kid, and I'd love to make it work again, especially in centerfire. I'd like to shoot something without needing "ears" for once.

Don't worry! Once you get it shooting, you'll be a kid again. Or at least you'll feel like one. Trouble is, then you'll want to drawfile the barrel flats, reblue it, install a tang sight and refinish the stock and hone the sear engagement, and ... Have fun!
Molly

[geargnasher]

The hardest part of this project is deciding from the outset what the finish will be. It's beat up and rusty (minor pitting, "bubba" cold blue job is now finely rusted), but in a way it looks good and should probably stay that way as much as possible. I plan on just oiling the rust and it will polish with use.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread, Molly, but I couldn't help myself and do appreciate the response and good tips. I'm going to do a bit more research now, I didn't think about shooting "30" caliber boolits in the .32 S&W, but that sure does improve mould selection.

I was wondering about Acraglassing the barrel tang just to tighten it up in the receiver, but wasn't sure how it would hold up to the locking cam working against it since I'd like it to remain a takedown rifle. Sure wouldn't hurt to try, even it it has to be redone from time to time.

Anyway, thanks again, looks like I can do this all myself, just what I was looking for!

Gear

[w30wcf]

Here are the factory ballistics of 32 Long Colt cartridges in a rifle:

80 gr. hollow base / smokeless / 960 f.p.s.
90 gr. heel bullet / smokeless / 945 f.p.s.
90 gr. heel bullet / black powder / 1,075 f.p.s.

Factory smokeless cartridges that I dissected contained 2.0 grs. of what appears to be Bullseye. They clocked suprisingly close (948 f.p.s.) to the claimed 960 f.p.s. in my '92's 24" barrel.

Loads that have worked well for me using 90-94 gr. cast bullets:
2.3/231/wsp - 1,017 f.p.s.
4.0/SR80/CCI500 - 1,037 f.p.s.
4.0/Blue Dot /CCI500 - 1,016 f.p.s.
7.0/H4227/CCI500 - 1,133 f.p.s.
7.2/Pyrodex RS/CCI500 - 1,031 f.p.s.
11.0/Swiss FFFG/CCI500 - 1,091 f.p.s.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[Molly]

Here are the factory ballistics of 32 Long Colt cartridges in a rifle: w30wcf

That's great info, and a welcome add to the thread. Somewhere up above, I believe I said that I doubted 1000 FPS from the .32 Colt Long, but I had pistol velocities in mind. Rifle velocities are something else.

Thanks again

[Molly]

You know, when I started this thread, I figured there might be two or three guys that would be interested. It's very gratifying to see so many sportsmen who appreciate the old rifles as much as I do.
Thanks!

[w30wcf]

Molly,
You are most welcome. Here are some neat catalog pages from the 1905 Marlin catalog (reprint) regarding the 32 Colt ammunition and rifles.....

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/32Colt-Marlin1905Catalogjpg.jpg


http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Marlin189232.jpg

.....and the reason to choose the 32 Colt over the 32-20.......
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Marlin321905.jpg

w30wcf

[Molly]

Molly,
You are most welcome. Here are some neat catalog pages from the 1905 Marlin catalog (reprint) regarding the 32 Colt ammunition and rifles.....
w30wcf

Now THAT made my day! Very nice read.

My dad once picked up one of those old Marlins with the double firing pin to let it shoot CF and RF. Sorry to say, he didn't appreciate what he had, and he had it re-bored to .357 Mag. After a few months, the extraction became really hard, because the soft steel (?iron?) barrel couldn't take the pressures he was loading to, and bulged the chamber. A nearly total loss.

I could just cry!

[Mk42gunner]

Here are the factory ballistics of 32 Long Colt cartridges in a rifle:

80 gr. hollow base / smokeless / 960 f.p.s.
90 gr. heel bullet / smokeless / 945 f.p.s.
90 gr. heel bullet / black powder / 1,075 f.p.s.

Factory smokeless cartridges that I dissected contained 2.0 grs. of what appears to be Bullseye. They clocked suprisingly close (948 f.p.s.) to the claimed 960 f.p.s. in my '92's 24" barrel.

Loads that have worked well for me using 90-94 gr. cast bullets:
2.3/231/wsp - 1,017 f.p.s.
4.0/SR80/CCI500 - 1,037 f.p.s.
4.0/Blue Dot /CCI500 - 1,016 f.p.s.
7.0/H4227/CCI500 - 1,133 f.p.s.
7.2/Pyrodex RS/CCI500 - 1,031 f.p.s.
11.0/Swiss FFFG/CCI500 - 1,091 f.p.s.

Have fun!
w30wcf

Thanks for the info, this will give me something to compare the velocities I get from my No. 2 Remington's 28" barrel. I think I will try to get this done on Monday when my daughter is in school.

I wish one of the ammunition manufacturers would start loading the .32 Rimfires again. Even if they treated it like Winchester does the .22 WRF, and only loaded it occasionally. There has to be a lot of servicable guns that are not being used due to no ammo being available, or extremely high prices and scarce quantities like the Navy Arms stuff.

Robert

[geargnasher]

I sure do agree about the .32 Rimfire, especially for valuble-but-shootable originals that one doesn't want to modify. Too bad the "bottom line" is the only thing driving production these days.

Although it wouldn't help my particular gun, has anyone given thought to making a special, machined brass "capsule" cartridge? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Dixie Gun Works round, but a reloadable, improved version that would use a traditional, heeled boolit, a two-piece, screw-together body made like this: Forward section would be like a .32 Short, it would have a primer pocket, flash hole, powder chamber, and hold the heeled boolit, and would have male threads on the rear end. The back portion would screw onto the forward part and contain a firing pin, spring, and the rim. The rim would need to be very thin and have either a cone-shaped firing pin anvil or a nailhead shaped anvil so it would fire in any position. Only issues I can see would be getting sufficient travel on the built-in firing pin and the obvious danger factor of dropping the stuff. It would most certainly go bang if dropped on concrete.

Gear

[Bret4207]

You guys got me all riled up! I decided to either get the liner in the old #4 barrel (such as it was) or to chuck the whole mess. The liner is in. The barrel is never going to look right and every time I see I'll remember that haste makes waste and not to argue with your kid while trying to concentrate!

Anyway, not only is it in the barrel, but it's done on the breech end except for chambering. My reamer that I made...jeeze, 14-15 years ago?, is a shade small. So I'm either going to have to rent or borrow a reamer or get a chucking reamer to do it.

Any way, thanks for spurring me on and getting a project nearly done after a good 10 years of putting it off.

[NoZombies]

Hey Bret, are you chambering for .32 colt (or rimfire) or something else?

I've long wished that .32 rimfire was a more available cartridge, I love small game hunting, and the .32 rf was so highly spoken of by people who's opinions I respect.

[Mk42gunner]

Well I shot the No 2 with the centerfire breechblock today. More of a function test than anything. Results as follows:

Factory Winchester .32 Short Colt

80 gr heel based five rounds averaged 844 fps.

Not very consistant, speeds in order fired were 927, 842, 784, 780, 889.

Boolit in the chamber but not breech seated, Ideal 313445, 95 gr SWC, hand lubed with emmets lube.

2.0 gr W231, WSP, five rounds avg 858 fps.

A lot more consistant, speeds in order fired were 853, 862, 849, 892, 836.

I didn't swap the breechblocks today, it got too hot by the time I had a boolit trap set up. Maybe tomorrow.

I need to do some group shooting with this combo, and maybe try some loads with other powders. I have both Red Dot and Green Dot on hand. While this was fun, I still am not in thrilled with semi fixed small arms ammo.

I guess I will have to start saving my nicklels and dimes, so I can order a mold from CBE; I think he has some heeled boolits that will work for the .32 Colts. Either that or make a mold myself.

I thought about using a 5/16" ball ended mill to make a cherry from, think it would work?

Robert

[Bret4207]

Hey Bret, are you chambering for .32 colt (or rimfire) or something else?

I've long wished that .32 rimfire was a more available cartridge, I love small game hunting, and the .32 rf was so highly spoken of by people who's opinions I respect.

32 S+W Long. That's what it was before I decided the eroded chamber was a problem. I imagine years of 32 short RF was responsible for that.

I can rent a reamer for $36.00 plus the deposit or buy a .337 chucking reamer for $18.00.

[geargnasher]

I'd rent one. The .32 S&W has a sort of pilot, a shoulder for the rim, and a leade-taper.

Wanna sell your liner drill???

Gear

[NoZombies]

Yeah, I was looking at options for rental VS chucking reamer as well. Mind sharing where that rental would come from? I got back to the states last night, and I really want to get my H&A going ASAP...

I decided a real chamber reamer would be better than a chucking reamer after looking at a diagram of a chamber reamer. The little bit of taper in a chamber reamer seems like it would be good to have for extraction.

[geargnasher]

A .32 S&W will probably not have trouble extracting with a straight chamber, (my revolver sure doesn't) but the other considerations, especially the rim rebate, were what wins the more expensive chamber reamer in my opinion.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

The .32 S&W Long is definitely the way to go when relineing or barreling any of the small .32 caliber rifles, for a bunch of reasons.

You can still get brass and loaded ammo easily; Winchester is the only one that is still making .32 Short Colt, for the Long Colt you have to find someone that has a box or two.

The S&W rounds are inside lubed; you can get dies to reload it, and don't need heeled boolits.

I did switch my breechblocks so I could chronograph the Navy Arms rimfire ammo. I fired six rounds, three of the cases ruptured. Of the five that I got readings on the chronograph, the avg velocity was 860 fps, with a 90 grain bullet.

I am leaning more towards rechambering do to the safety factor, after the 50% failure rate of the rimfire ammo. More thinking to do...

I guess I'll have to slug the bore again before I make the final decision; I don't remember what it measured and can't find my notes.

Robert

[NoZombies]

I had a bunch of Canuck .32 RF stuff I ended up selling off, it didn't rupture in my old no 4's but it sure didn't look pretty at the case head...

I've still got a few in case I pick up another .32 RF that I simply have to shoot before converting, or is somehow just to nice or original to convert.

As far as the chamber reamer, it looks like the rebate on the barrel I've got will already fit the rim of a .32 S&W long... I'm really really cheap, but I still think that maybe I should rent or buy the reamer... maybe we could buy one reamer and pass it around? I recall someone had a deal going a while ago for about $65 plus shipping, split that 4 or 5 ways, and it gets real cheap...

[Mk42gunner]

My No. 2 will accept the rims of both a .32 S&W, and .32 H&R Mag; I didn't have a .32 S&W Long to try. If I do end up rechambering this rifle, my plan is to run the reamer in until it just touches the rim recess, then stopping.

Robert

[Molly]

My No. 2 will accept the rims of both a .32 S&W, and .32 H&R Mag; I didn't have a .32 S&W Long to try. If I do end up rechambering this rifle, my plan is to run the reamer in until it just touches the rim recess, then stopping. Robert

That's because the rim (and the body diameter) is nominally identical on the .32 RF short, the .32 RF Long, the .32 RF Extra Long, the .32 Short Colt and the .32 Long Colt. Sharing the exact same rim with a slightly larger body are the .32 S&W Short, the .32 S&W Long, the .32 H&R Mag and the 327 Mag.

[geargnasher]

So all I have to do is polish out the small radius of the extractor to fit the .32 S&W long case body and leave the larger (rim) radius alone. Bueno. Still have to cut the rim rebate in the barrel hood, though, before milling the bottom off for the extractor.

Gear

[Bret4207]

As far as the chamber reamer, it looks like the rebate on the barrel I've got will already fit the rim of a .32 S&W long... I'm really really cheap, but I still think that maybe I should rent or buy the reamer... maybe we could buy one reamer and pass it around? I recall someone had a deal going a while ago for about $65 plus shipping, split that 4 or 5 ways, and it gets real cheap...

Hey, that sounds like an idea! Any others interested?

[geargnasher]

I am in on a .32 S&W Long finish reamer for sure! Bret, can I volunteer you to honcho the deal?

BTW, did you see my question about buying your .32 liner drill?

Gear

[NoZombies]

I am in on a .32 S&W Long finish reamer for sure! Bret, can I volunteer you to honcho the deal?


Sounds good to me, but hopefully we can get this rolling pretty soon, I'm eager to be able to use the rifle in the near future in my limited time for small game hunting.

[Bret4207]

I am in on a .32 S&W Long finish reamer for sure! Bret, can I volunteer you to honcho the deal?

BTW, did you see my question about buying your .32 liner drill?

Gear

You don't want my 32 liner drill. It's part of why my barrel got messed up. I made the pilot wrong.

I'm not the best guy to honcho anything, too much stuff going.

[geargnasher]

OK, I'll do it if we have enough interest. What I'd like to do is try to get a .32 S&W Long finish reamer, a 12" piloted liner drill from Brownell's, and cutting oil so no excuses for chipped or worn cutters. Everyone can buy their own liners so they only get shipped once. I would like to have four or five people involved, and an understanding that if any one of us damages the tools we get to replace them or pay the next guy in line to buy a new one. I figure the best policy might be that I'll just buy the stuff and do my gun, and the next guy interested can purchase the tools from me at a reduced price, like 25% off what I paid if there are four of us, so on for the next guy, and the last guy gets to auction it off to benefit Casboolits. I also want anyone interested to download the PDF instructions for barrel lining from the Brownell's website and read and UNDERSTAND the procedure and give an honest evaluation of their own tools and abilities before signing up. These tools are easy to break or dull, especially the drill.

I'm open to moderator suggestions on whether to proceed here or start an open group buy to prevent hijacking this thread further than it already has been. I think I'd like to limit it to the interest here in this thread to minimize tool *****s, and also get a timeline on who needs it first.

Gimme some input!

Gear

So far I can assume those interested are:

Bret4207 (reamer only)
NoZombies
Mk42Gunner (maybe, reamer only)
Me

[Molly]

>I'm open to moderator suggestions on whether to proceed here or start an open group buy to prevent hijacking this thread further than it already has been. I think I'd like to limit it to the interest here in this thread to minimize tool *****s, and also get a timeline on who needs it first.

FWIW, I really think the gunsmithing forum would be more appropriate, given the turn of the conversation. It's moved quite a way from reloading the equivalents to the .32 RF that I started with. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it deserves its own thread in an appropriate forum.

[geargnasher]

Good Idea, Molly, I'm going to start a new thread in the "barrel works" area, I think that's the most appropriate forum. I'll outline my project there and anyone interested in swapping around tools pm me or post there please.

Gear

[Molly]

Good Idea, Molly, I'm going to start a new thread in the "barrel works" area, I think that's the most appropriate forum. I'll outline my project there and anyone interested in swapping around tools pm me or post there please. Gear

That'll work. Now I'd like to know if any of the guys who were picking up their #4 RB rifles have converted their breechblocks to centerfire, and how load development is coming along.

As a matter of interest (to me, if not to you), the friendly reception this thread has gotten has inspired me to finally get moving on a related project that has been simmering in the back of my head for years. In the morning, I'll be shipping off a Uberti RB pistol (equal to a #2 Remington action) to a gunsmith, for conversion to a rolling block rifle in .32 S&W Long.

I haven't done anything before, because first, I would have preferred to find one of the original #2 rifles with a bad bore, and simply relined it. Failing that, I have also looked for one of those little Uberti RB carbines in .357 or .22 Hornet, because that would have been a simple and relatively inexpensive rebarrel job. But they don't seem to be very available either. I've only found one, and the owner thought a great deal of it, to judge from his price. I just couldn't bring myself to deprive him of it.

I gave considerable thought to making it a .32 H&R Mag or even the .327 Mag. That would have let me shoot a lot of different rounds in it, loaded as the situation demanded. But on reflection, I realised that the only situation I expected to experience with it was quiet squirrel hunting, with whisper loads duplicating the .32 RF short. The longer chamber would have been no advantage whatsoever, and the long jump to the bore (for a .32 long bullet) could have been detrimental to best accuracy. Should I change my mind at a later date, it's easy enough to run in a longer reamer, but I doubt if I will ever do it. I have plenty of high power rifles should I need one, but I don't need one for squirrels.

I don't have the eyes of a youngster any more, and will be putting some sort of optical sight on it. I'm torn between the simple reliability of a low power scope, and one of the newer optical sights. I'm not too familiar with them, and would appreciate any guidance anyone might offer. I got really annoyed with one of them when I forgot to turn the battery off after shooting one time, and had no sights when I next went shooting. I know, my fault, not the sights, but a scope doesn't have that problem. But it would be simple to just toss a couple of spare batteries in my shooting box, so I guess it's still a tossup. Comments please?

[geargnasher]

How about an "el cheapo" clamp-on laser with a pressure switch? For the ranges and likely lighting conditions for hunting squirrels that might work. I have some eye problems and have had good luck with an Ultradot sight, but I can't seem to remember to turn it off, either! Another option that comes to mind, and wouldn't look quite so bad on that gun would be one of the better holographic sights used for pistols and shotguns.

Or you could try to find an old 4X Weaver with a 3/4" tube and be happy.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

In the morning, I'll be shipping off a Uberti RB pistol (equal to a #2 Remington action) to a gunsmith, for conversion to a rolling block rifle in .32 S&W Long.

I haven't done anything before, because first, I would have preferred to find one of the original #2 rifles with a bad bore, and simply relined it. Failing that, I have also looked for one of those little Uberti RB carbines in .357 or .22 Hornet, because that would have been a simple and relatively inexpensive rebarrel job. But they don't seem to be very available either. I've only found one, and the owner thought a great deal of it, to judge from his price. I just couldn't bring myself to deprive him of it.


I looked pretty hard for one of those rifles before I retired, with no luck. At that time I hadn't thought about using one of the pistols for a donor action.

I really don't like battery operated sighting devices, for pretty much the same reason you gave. I have been thinking about the little square one, I think it is the Bushnell holosight. I don't know if it takes batteries or not, but it is about the least objectionable one as far as disrupting the lines of the gun.

I think that the No 2 sized rifle would be dwarfed by even a small 1" tubed scope; however, most of the 3/4" tubes were very dim. I did have a 7/8" tube Weaver, IIRC it was a J-4, that was plenty bright and would look okay on this size gun.

Molly quick question on your loads, did you put anything between the powder and the wax wad? I have been thinking that you almost need a thin card to separate the two, plus I have several decks of playing cards to cut them from.

I am going to play around with my loads some more, basically to see what kind of accuracy I can get. I am satisfied with the velocity I get from 2.0 gr of 231.

Since it looks like the temperatures are finally getting to be reasonable here again, I plan to try some bullets lubed with LLA or JPW.

I think I am going to end up either buying, making or modifying a mold to produce a heel based bullet. I have been thinking aout adding a heel section to an 85 grain mold, similar to what Catshooter and JiminPHX have done for gascheck shanks.


Now for the big questions, round or octagon? How long? 28" tapered octagon looks good on a No. 2.

Thanks for starting this thread, it got me enthused about doing something with my little rifle again.


Robert

[Molly]

Hi Mk42gunner,

>I think that the No 2 sized rifle would be dwarfed by even a small 1" tubed scope; however, most of the 3/4" tubes were very dim. I did have a 7/8" tube Weaver, IIRC it was a J-4, that was plenty bright and would look okay on this size gun.

That's a thought, but esthetics are in the eye of the beholder. I'd rather have an oversize scope than one that didn't give me a bright clear picture.

>Molly quick question on your loads, did you put anything between the powder and the wax wad? I have been thinking that you almost need a thin card to separate the two, plus I have several decks of playing cards to cut them from.

No, not a thing. I've tried card wads in several guns over the years, but as a general rule, don't see much benefit from them. The only time I see an advantage to them is when using a tiny powder charge in a real big case, such as a few grains of bullseye in a 45-70. In this case, it's a tiny powder charge all right, but a tiny case too. I never had the slightest problem.

Just don't temper the beeswax with so much petroleum jelly that it melts too easily, and you should be fine. I used just enough petroleum jelly to soften the beeswax enough that I could push a .32 case mouth through it without causing a sheet of the blend to break up.

Hmmm. Actually, I didn't push the case through the beeswax. I made a sheet of the wax about 1/8 inch thick by melting it in a pieplate of boiling water. The wax floated to the top when I turned the heat off, and formed a uniform sheet when it cooled. Then I pushed this sheet over the charged cases as they stood in the loading block, which made my wax wad.

>I think I am going to end up either buying, making or modifying a mold to produce a heel based bullet. I have been thinking aout adding a heel section to an 85 grain mold, similar to what Catshooter and JiminPHX have done for gascheck shanks.

That would be neat all right, but I never had much luck with reloading heeled bullets. I don't know how to crimp them in place, and they would always fall apart in my pocket and make a mess. I suppose one could dip them in pure beeswax and let it harden as a sort of glue to hold it together, but I never tried it myself.

>Now for the big questions, round or octagon? How long? 28" tapered octagon looks good on a No. 2.

It's one of the items under consideration, but as a retiree living mostly on Social Security, cost is a major consideration. I'll have it ground if I can afford it, or will be happy with a round barrel if I can't.

As to length, I've told the 'smith that I'd like it "as long as practical". The longer barrel just feels better in my hand, and will enhance accuracy if I decide to put a peep on it. It also gives a lower muzzle pressure and hence a softer report from any given load. The advantage may not be great, but I see NO advantage to the shorter barrel besides weight, and I don't think the finished rifle will be heavy enough to worry about. So why not get as long a barrel as I can?

I gave some thought to getting a .308 bore, so I could use some of the .30 molds I have in it. But then I realized that I size most of them to .312 anyhow, so that line of logic went down the tubes. Also, I wondered if my dies would size the little .32 case down enough to hold a .308 bullet. All things considered, I decided to go with the .312 bore as most practical.

>Thanks for starting this thread, it got me enthused about doing something with my little rifle again.

My pleasure indeed! I'm surprised and very pleased by the number of friendly and interested responses to what I thought would only be of interest to a few old curmudgeons like myself.

[Molly]

When someone robs you, he ought to have the common decency to wear a mask and stick a pistol in your ribs. But the clerk at FedEx who quoted me $162.17 to ship to the gunsmith just didn't care. If I paid like that, I might not have the money to pay the gunsmith. Just what options do I have for shipping a modern firearm in this day and age? Can anyone make any suggestions?

[NoZombies]

A rifle, going to a licensed gunsmith for repair or other work, can be shipped Via USPS per their regs I believe, certainly worth checking anyways.

[geargnasher]

I shipped some "machined tubes" via UPS to the east coast and back to have a jug choke cut, but just the barrels of the O/U, not the whole gun. What you say it is has a lot to do with it.

Gear

[Molly]

I shipped some "machined tubes" via UPS to the east coast and back to have a jug choke cut, but just the barrels of the O/U, not the whole gun. What you say it is has a lot to do with it. Gear

Sometimes. I wrote "Broken machinery for repairs" on my shipping carton. Which was true. I was fully honest with the clerk, but I also wanted to reduce the potential volatility of my carton.

Didn't influence the clerk any: He still tried to rob me.

[Wayne Smith]

Gentlemen, I'm going to chime in here, not because of the .32 but because of heeled boolits. NEI has heeled molds for the .38 and the .41, I would be suprised if they don't have one for the .32. Old West also has heeled molds. Given problems reported with NEI he may be a better choice. Old West has also modified the Lee Crimp die to crimp .41 Colt rounds, he probably can do the same with a .32. Crimping is the major problem and this is a truly elegant solution. I have a .41 crimp die that I got from HarryO. Made by Old West.

[Nobade]

Since I have my #4 up and running, I thought I'd chime in here again. This is the one I relined and chambered for 32 H&R mag. The load I use is 14 gr. FFFg black powder and a Biglube 32 bullet at 75 grains cast from wheelweights. So far I have learned you must anneal Starline brass to get it to seal the chamber. If you don't do that it blows a lot of crud into the action and your face. After annealing it stays clean and is more accurate. As for accuracy, it cuts cloverleaf groups at 25 yards and about an inch at 50. I made a rear sight that regulates to just over the sight at 25 yards and dead on at 50. As for the chambering, I think you guys with the S&W Long case are right on track. The longer magnum case is just a bit tough to get past the block, not too hard but a shorter case would be better. And if you are going to shoot smokeless powder in it, the S&W case is plenty big. (and smokeless would be way quieter. BP loads are LOUD even in this little rifle.) Looking at Quickload I see I can get the same performance with lower pressure using the bigger case, but a shorter chamber would make it harder for someone to put a high pressure smokeless load in it in the future. Oh, and forget the 327 Fed case, you'd probably not be able to get it past the breechblock. Well, that's it for now - everybody have fun with the #4 projects, and I am glad to see so many folks playing with these neat little rifles!

[NoZombies]

Well, I've been talking to Tom over at http://accuratemolds.com/ and it looks like he'll be adding a heeled bullet design to the catalog that would be appropriate for .32 colt conversions. This one will have a short heel, so hopefully it will be a little better on accuracy.

If you can get the mold, and figure out crimping etc. (CH4D has .32 colt dies) then all that's necessary for a lot of the old .32 rimfires will be CF conversion. (and finding brass... another challenge)

It's making me reconsider rechambering, though I think in the end I will anyways, since I like the .32 S&W long and already load for it and shoot it in other guns.

[Mk42gunner]

Reading the thread on loading .22LR brass a week or so ago gave me an idea. It isn't exactly a crimp, but it might work for single shots.

After seating the boolit in the flared case, run the cartridge into the appropriate diameter die in your lubrisizer. It would at least iron the flare back straight.

A quick measurment of some Winchester .32 Short Colt gave a diameter of factory rounds to be .314"-.315".

Another idea that may work is to use a Lee FCD for one fo the 30 cal rifles, only insert the cartridge from the top, with a plugged case in the die to act as a depth stop.

Quite frankly, no more than I envision shooting my rifle, I will probably use cobbled together dies to load for it. Things are pretty much on hold until I can locate a suitable mold, anyway.

Robert

[NoZombies]

Another idea that may work is to use a Lee FCD for one fo the 30 cal rifles, only insert the cartridge from the top, with a plugged case in the die to act as a depth stop.
That was my thought too, well, almost, I thought of modifying a FCD for the cartridge, but same principle anyways


Quite frankly, no more than I envision shooting my rifle, I will probably use cobbled together dies to load for it. Things are pretty much on hold until I can locate a suitable mold, anyway.

Robert

That was why I was glad when Tom said he wanted to add a bullet designed for the .32 colt to the catalog. His turn-around time is only about a week!

[NoZombies]

Well, my car broke down the other day, I happened to be over at my Mom's place in the country, and had a .32 rimfire with me, so while I waited for the car to cool down enough to work on it, I walked into the woods, and fired a few rounds of my precious stash of RF ammo through the chronograph.

The ammo was the Canuck brand made by C-I-L and has 80 grain lead bullets. The stuff I have still looks about factory new, with it's still pliable lube, and complete lack of oxidation on either brass (copper?) or bullet.

The rifle is a Hopkins and Allen falling block with a 22 1/2" barrel

I fired a 5 shot string and was quite impressed with the consistency of the ammo.

Shot 1 1031
Shot 2 1028
Shot 3 1030
Shot 4 1024
Shot 5 1028

Which, if my math is correct, gives about 188 Ft-lbs of energy from a gun that's only about as loud as a .22 lr.

I can see why the old-timers liked the caliber so much, I can only imagine being the kid with a .32 when my friends had .22's. The trajectory would be about the same, but the .32 would have to be a better game getter, with not much more noise or meat spoiled.

It's sad they don't make the ammo anymore, but considering the condition of most of the .32 RF rifles and pistols I see, I doubt we'll see production again anytime.

[Molly]

That's a great post, NoZombies. Thanks. BTW, buy original ammo whenever the opportunity arises. Don't even bother with the Navy Arms stuff. I tried some, and it shot roughly 'minute of washtub', while some original Winchester ammo would group in cloverleafs at the same distance. Was your ammo .32 Shorts, or .32 Longs?

[NoZombies]

That's a great post, NoZombies. Thanks. BTW, buy original ammo whenever the opportunity arises. Don't even bother with the Navy Arms stuff. I tried some, and it shot roughly 'minute of washtub', while some original Winchester ammo would group in cloverleafs at the same distance. Was your ammo .32 Shorts, or .32 Longs?

Hey Molly, I've never tried the Navy arms stuff, but my understanding is that it was made someplace south of the border on the worn out equipment that came from C-I-L, but that may just be internet rumor.

The ammo I shot was the .32 Long RF. I don't know when it was made, but I assume sometime in the 70's.

I didn't shoot for groups, as I didn't have a target or any kind of rest with me, but since I had the chrony, I figured I'd try it out and see what it did.

[Molly]

Hi guys,

I wasn't feeling too bad this morning, so I got to go squirrel hunting for a while. I had a great morning in the woods. Saw a nice whitetail, but the brush was too heavy to be able to tell if it was a buck or a doe.

I saw two squirrels playing in a huge hickory, but too far to get a decent shot, so I just waited. I would get a glimpse of them in the trees, but they never stopped for a moment, so I could draw a bead on them. They finally worked their way over to me, and one of them stopped on a long, bare horizontal branch. Serious mistake! I noted where he fell, and sat still, waiting for the other one to show himself. He showed up about ten minutes later, and hit the ground dead. I sat for a while to see if there were any more in the neighborhood, but then decided to go pick them up. The second squirrel was closest, so I got it first. The first squirrel was only a little further, but when I got there, he wasn't to be seen. I thought that was funny, because usually, a squirrel burrowing under the leaves will make quite a racket, while this one had never moved after it hit the ground as far as I could tell.

Well, I got ready to kick some leaves around by leaning my rifle up against a tree, but when I did, I spotted a movement a few yards away. It was the first squirrel, and it was still alive, though unable to move much because I'd pretty well paralyzed it with a .22 through the spine. I apologized for leaving it to suffer while retrieving my rifle, and put a coup de grace through the head. Or so I thought. That tough little bugger was still alive and feisty. I put a second shot through the head. Super-squirrel actually shook his head and hissed at me! I had to step on his chest and collapse the rib cage before he was willing to die.

Don’t get me wrong: I’ve shot a lot of squirrels, and the head shot is my favorite. It almost always puts them down like flipping a light switch. But I couldn’t help but note the absolutely dismal performance of my .22 this morning: No spine, and two head shots from about three feet, but super-squirrel was still in there fighting! Even Rocky Balboa wasn’t that tough! Contrast that with the usual performance of the .32 RF, which (up until now at least) has consisted of ‘Snap!’ from the rifle, and ‘Thump!’ as the squirrel hits the ground. I’m sure glad John Taylor is making me a squirrel rifle in .32 Long that I can rely on.

But you know, my admiration and respect for the common squirrel grows every year. Not only do they spend all their time swinging through trees and building muscle, but I once tried to clean a mess of them with a knife that wasn’t sharp enough. It didn’t take long to get tired of that, but I had a sudden inspiration: “I’ll go get the tin snips from the shop! It’ll cut steel, so I KNOW it’ll cut squirrel!” Believe it or not, the dang squirrel hide was so tough it actually turned the tin snips, and it couldn’t cut them!

[Mk42gunner]

Squirrels are tough. I remember shooting one out of a big sycamore with my 20 gauge when I was a kid that wasn't quite dead. My dog Molly, (no relation I'm sure) got to it before I did. It reached around and bit her on the nose, I think it made her mad because she made sure it was thoroughly dead before giving it to me.

I was gimping around more than usual yesterday, when I spied a tender young squirrel in one of the walnut trees in the yard. I grabbed the No 2 with a .32 Short Colt and went to get breakfast. I am embarrassed to admit that I missed the first shot, I guess I lost the front sight with the sun shining on it, or something. The neat thing was that with the slow velocity, the bullet didn't spook him. I held low and got him the next shot, slightly above a line between the eye and ear.

That was the first time I can remember hitting one in the head that didn't kill it right then. I think it was a combination of a slightly misplaced shot and a round nosed bullet slipping through. Next time I wil have some flat nosed boolits.

Robert

[Molly]

>Squirrels are tough. I remember shooting one out of a big sycamore with my 20 gauge when I was a kid that wasn't quite dead. My dog Molly, (no relation I'm sure) got to it before I did. It reached around and bit her on the nose, I think it made her mad because she made sure it was thoroughly dead before giving it to me.

I can see that as plainly as in a movie! And while I seriously doubt any genetic connection between your Molly and myself, I have to admit that I've been referred to as a SOB on occasion. (VBG)

>I was gimping around more than usual yesterday, when I spied a tender young squirrel in one of the walnut trees in the yard. I grabbed the No 2 with a .32 Short Colt and went to get breakfast. I am embarrassed to admit that I missed the first shot, I guess I lost the front sight with the sun shining on it, or something. The neat thing was that with the slow velocity, the bullet didn't spook him. I held low and got him the next shot, slightly above a line between the eye and ear.

Well, that tells me two things. 1.) That you are just human enough to make a mistake, and 2.) That you're man enough to admit it.

>That was the first time I can remember hitting one in the head that didn't kill it right then. I think it was a combination of a slightly misplaced shot and a round nosed bullet slipping through. Next time I wil have some flat nosed boolits.

Yeah, they really ARE tough little boogers. If I were that tough, I could do one armed chin-ups or push-ups until the cows come home. If they were much bigger, I don't believe I'd want to risk annoying one of them.

Molly

[NoZombies]

I remember as a kid, I only had an air rifle to hunt squirrels with. I was getting about 520 FPS on a 7.9 grain pellet, if crossman's numbers can be trusted, providing for a grand total of 4.7 ft lbs of energy.

I probably killed more of those tree-rats with that air rifle than I have with everything else combined in my life. Admittedly, I had a lot more time for hunting in the back yard in those days, and since my folks were city dwellers, the longest shot possible was no more than 20 yards or so.

I think ever since then, I've been on a quest to find the perfect squirrel rifle.

Eventually my parents moved to their place in the woods, and the search began in earnest.

I started with a .22, and found that I had a longer range than the air rifle, but a little too commonly, the bullets would whiz right through, often resulting in a wounded squirrel running around, and me chasing it through the woods scaring away other potential game . If I used a .22 magnum, or the hot-loaded hollow points, it would damage most of the edible meat, not to mention the unpleasant increase in noise. As a result, I discovered I had to make head shots, using standard velocity ammo, or it wasn't worth the effort. Being a decent shot, (and having better eyes at that point in my life) I could probably make those head shots reliably out to about 40 yards free standing, and maybe 60-75 with a rest for the rifle. But I did miss, and I hated having to pass up a perfectly good shot just because I didn't think I could make the head shot.

The other issue I had with the .22's was the poor bullet design for small game. Either you had hollow points that would destroy all the good stuff (for shots to the vitals) or you had a round nose that wasn't good for much except the head shots. I didn't have the money to buy the more expensive ammo, and there wasn't much loaded for the .22 LR designed to preserve meat and still kill cleanly, so I started "rolling my own" as it where. I would pull the bullets from the cheap ammo, file the point flat, and then "reseat" the bullet, using the wire cutter section of a pair of needle nose pliers to "crimp" the bullet in place. I discovered that my "reloaded" .22's had reduced velocity compared to the factory ammo, and the flat nose bullets did a better job of anchoring squirrels, especially at the lower velocities. I tried just filing the bullets without pulling them, but I discovered that I got more noise than I wanted, though they were better at stopping squirrels.

I soon discovered that for me, the "sweet spot" was just sub-sonic with a flat nosed bullet. The combination was good when it worked, but not very consistent, velocities ranged from just barely leaving the bore, to "really fast." (Sorry for the lack of solid Data... I was 12 or 13, and that was a pretty good assessment from my standpoint at the time.)

It was when I was in my late teens that I discovered the existence of the obsolete .25 and .32 rimfire calibers. I cursed my youth, declaring that I had been born a few generations too late for my own good, and sought out original boys rifles in larger calibers with decent bores. Decent usually meant "Sure, it looks like a sewer culvert... but, see, there's a little rifling right there.... see it?" I then started scouring gun-shows and old gun shops for the appropriate ammo.

Conveniently my discovery of the larger caliber rimfires also came at a time in life where I experienced an increase in personal cash-flow. Eventually I found an old Stevens favorite in .25 RF, along with about 200 rounds of original .25 RF short ammo. It was the bee's knees for squirrel hunting compared to the .22 LR I'd been using. The .25 short was probably about the same velocity, but it would put a squirrel on the ground right then, without doing much meat damage. and the noise was about the same as the standard velocity .22's. I attribute the improvement in it's effectiveness to the increased bullet weight, and vastly improved bullet design.

Sadly, I sold the rifle some years ago, as it looked like I would never be able to find more ammo for it. It never even occurred to me that I could convert it to CF and form brass and load for it. Alas, we live and we learn.

Since then, I've discovered the .32 S&W long cartridge, and have been very slowly working on getting a rifle built to shoot the cartridge. I recently found a Hopkins and Allen in .32 RF that's got the most perfect bore I've seen on any old RF rifle, and I'm shooting up my supply of .32 RF ammo before I complete the conversion process.

My goal for the gun is to shoot a 90-100 grain bullet of round flat nose, or SWC design, to about 1000 FPS. From what I can tell, this will slightly better the original .32 long RF balistics, and provide 200 or more Ft Lbs of energy at the muzzle. If I find that it's producing too much meat damage, I can always reduce the load. I doubt I'll ever feel the need for more power, especially with the requisite increase in noise.

My eyes aren't as good as they where when I was a teenager, and making head shots becomes increasingly difficult, so having a rifle that won't require them for humane killing and meat preservation is well timed.

I guess the move to 200 Ft/lbs of energy from the 4.7 that I started with is quite a transition, but the path from one to the other has been a long one. All I can hope for is that I can consistently get as clean a kills now as I did when I was 9 years old and shooting a crossman in my parents back-yard, and at a longer range.

[Molly]

Hi Nozombies,

>I remember as a kid, I only had an air rifle to hunt squirrels with. I was getting about 520 FPS on a 7.9 grain pellet, if crossman's numbers can be trusted, providing for a grand total of 4.7 ft lbs of energy.

I was a bit luckier than you: I had a 5 mm Sheridan air rifle, and it was deadly on them at close range.

>... I think ever since then, I've been on a quest to find the perfect squirrel rifle. Eventually my parents moved to their place in the woods, and the search began in earnest.

Me too. My parents weren't so obliging, but I mostly lived in easy walking distance from nice woods.

>... It was when I was in my late teens that I discovered the existence of the obsolete .25 and .32 rimfire calibers. ... Eventually I found an old Stevens favorite in .25 RF, along with about 200 rounds of original .25 RF short ammo. It was the bee's knees for squirrel hunting compared to the .22 LR I'd been using. ... I attribute the improvement in it's effectiveness to the increased bullet weight, and vastly improved bullet design.

>Since then, I've discovered the .32 S&W long cartridge, and have been very slowly working on getting a rifle built to shoot the cartridge. ... My goal for the gun is to shoot a 90-100 grain bullet of round flat nose, or SWC design, to about 1000 FPS. ... I doubt I'll ever feel the need for more power, especially with the requisite increase in noise.

I've posted my experience with the .32 RF earlier, but you might be interested that when I get my .32 Long rifle back from John Taylor, I plan to run a ladder study with several cast bullets, jacking up the powder charge gradually. I expect that when my velocities hit the sonic barrier, they'll announce the fact with a suddenly sharp report. I plan to back off at that point, and then go for accuracy with a quiet load. Then I'll load a different cast bullet, and do it again and again until I find the load and bullet that gives me the best subsonic accuracy. I figure that will be just about the best possible squirrel load.

>My eyes aren't as good as they where when I was a teenager, and making head shots becomes increasingly difficult, so having a rifle that won't require them for humane killing and meat preservation is well timed.

Ya know, they've got these newfangled devices called peep sights and scopes that will help aging eyes quite a bit. I speak from experience. (VBG)

[35remington]

I squirrel hunt quite a lot, and I never did find the "excessive damage" from hollowpoints that those here claim to have had when shooting the .22 long rifle. The velocity and expansion ain't that great.

The various subsonic hollowpoints of good design (e.g. Eley, Winchester, and CCI) kill extremely well from the long rifle on fox squirrel, body shots included (I rarely if ever head shoot them) and are even quieter than the larger caliber rounds mentioned here. MV's are around 1050 fps or so. There is no need to have to rely exclusively on the head shot.

I have shot quite a few squirrels with low end 32-20 loads and many, many more with a 25-20 and the RCBS cowboy 85 FN. I do agree a larger caliber flatpoint gets it done quite effectively, but when speaking of tree squirrel hunting there is really no pressing "need" for anything more than the long rifle hollowpoints mentioned. Quiet and kill quite well.

What you want, however, may be an entirely different thing.

[Molly]

The various subsonic hollowpoints of good design (e.g. Eley, Winchester, and CCI) kill extremely well from the long rifle on fox squirrel, body shots included (I rarely if ever head shoot them) and are even quieter than the larger caliber rounds mentioned here. MV's are around 1050 fps or so. There is no need to have to rely exclusively on the head shot.

I have shot quite a few squirrels with low end 32-20 loads and many, many more with a 25-20 and the RCBS cowboy 85 FN. I do agree a larger caliber flatpoint gets it done quite effectively, but when speaking of tree squirrel hunting there is really no pressing "need" for anything more than the long rifle hollowpoints mentioned. Quiet and kill quite well.

What you want, however, may be an entirely different thing.

Most of my experiences agree with you. There's o question that the typical grey squirrel that takes a solid hit from most any 22 is usually dead right there.

However, I assure you that there are some prominent exceptions, one of which I posted right here. In this case, a squirrel took a body hit high enough above the shoulders that it took out its spine, and then it took two headshots from point blank range, and was still going. And this WAS with Winchester subsonic hollow points. I have seen other examples, and know of similar experiences that didn't happen to me personally. A prominent member of the Cast Boolits membership recently wrote to tell me of a squirrel that he hit with a 22 that turned out to be not only alive, but highly resentful when he picked it up, and it expressed that resentment in most memorable terms, all over his hand. Teeth that can handle hard walnut shells hardly notice finger bones. There was also a story going about when I was a kid about some fellow who picked up a not-so-dead squirrel who promptly slit his wrist for him. Urban legend? I dunno, but I've seen enough that I wouldn't be too quick to label it false.

Individual responses to injury (whether animal or human) vary wildly from one to another, depending on the level of excitement, adrenalin and overall physical condition among other factors. An injury that seems to kill almost instantly in one case only seems to spur another to even greater effort. I've read of an individual in who was bayoneted so badly in hand to hand fighting in the Civil War that his entrails spilled out on the ground, but his reaction was to cut them away with a Bowie knife and continue fighting!

The .22, while generally reliable on squirrel, simply isn't to be relied on every time. I don't like to see such a magnificent animal suffer unnecessarily, and I'm particularly averse to being responsible for that suffering. So I'm switching to the .32 caliber for my squirrel hunting. Overkill? Maybe. At least most of the time. But I like the idea of seeing myself as a sportsman.

[35remington]

Forgive me for the slight hijack, but I've an opportunity to express my views here, and as a very avid small game hunter I'm taking it!

Given about 300 shot over the years with the CCI subsonic, you'll have a hard time convincing me it's not as reliable as anything else out there. And I've shot a mighty lot of squirrel. This from a guy who's shot a great many with 32 rimfire ballistics and 32-20 ballistics (Lee C113F and Lyman flatnose plainbase) and the RCBS 85 in the 25-20 at ~1100 fps to 1400 fps.

Human error will account for most of the rest. I stand by my statement that anything else really isn't needed, and it isn't. Desired is something else entirely. A low velocity bullet of larger caliber may fail to penetrate on a head shot as well, especially the round nosed type. Just because it hasn't happened to you does not mean it won't......and the very, very great majority of shots on tree squirrels are taken with the long rifle, which means there's more chance for the occasional anomaly to occur that somehow gets widely disseminated as proof of its "inadequacy". Given a large number of shots taken with a larger caliber, failures to kill will also occur. Mostly due to shot placement (as was your shot, hitting the spine but missing the vitals) but some may go unexplained when the critter is not recovered.

The .22's is reliable as anything else on fox squirrel with proper ammo choice, which is tougher and larger than the grey.

Perhaps this will illustrate why. This is a recovered CCI subsonic, and it's extraordinarily rare to recover a .22 long rifle bullet from a squirrel. This particular one was facing me on a longish shot for squirrel, almost 60 yards, as it lay on a limb near the ground. The bullet hit just inside the left front shoulder, and when examining it after the shot I noticed a small lump near the base of the tail. I thought "I know just what that is" and removed it with the tip of my knife. The faint pink of blood can still be seen in the cavity. and a small hunk of meat is still present on the base (not readily visible).

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC00110.jpg

The CCI expands pretty much as I'd suspected, holding the sides of the expanded bullet at right angles to the cavity due to its teardrop inner shape, increasing its diameter quite a bit. I find these more effective than the Remington subsonic which often fail to expand. Don't get me wrong; the Remington work on every fairly placed shot, but these CCI work even when placed a little far back. As well as my 25-20? Well, given the extra penetration of the 25-20 from any angle, I'd try shots with that caliber I might not try with a long rifle.......but given how this CCI worked I just might have been shortchanging the long rifle a little. Still doesn't mean an 85 grain, 25 caliber flatpoint bullet is "needed" for them.

I certainly don't want to sidetrack this very enjoyable thread, but lately I've been reading a few articles in the blast and stab monthlies on how the .270 is "light" for big mule deer (which is utterly ridiculous) and sorta feel the long rifle has been shortchanged in the same way. And my feelings aren't for lack of experience with it, nor with calibers (32-20, 25-20) that are loaded to duplicate the .25 and 32 rimfires of old.

Do larger calibers with more ft/lbs have more killing power? Very likely, depending upon their speed and shape.

But to imply the long rifle, with proper bullets, is "light" for a pound and a half grey (by saying it's not adequate every time) or a two pound fox squirrel contrasts greatly with my experience. Yeah, they're tough critters for their size, but no one should get the impression that the long rifle regularly bounces off tree squirrel skulls. The preference of many for headshooting them with long rifles would have died out years ago if the long rifle was regularly underpenetrative or ineffective.

And those guys that buy gussied up Kimbers or Coopers in .22 long rifle just for squirrel hunting must not have known the cartridge was lacking before they shelled out 600 to 1K for one of them!

[Molly]

... Human error will account for most of the rest. I stand by my statement that anything else really isn't needed, and it isn't. ......and the very, very great majority of shots on tree squirrels are taken with the long rifle, which means there's more chance for the occasional anomaly to occur that somehow gets widely disseminated as proof of its "inadequacy". Given a large number of shots taken with a larger caliber, failures to kill will also occur. Mostly due to shot placement (as was your shot, hitting the spine but missing the vitals)

The .22's is reliable as anything else on fox squirrel with proper ammo choice, which is tougher and larger than the grey.

Almost the first thing my post above said was that I agreed with you. I said "There's no question that the typical grey squirrel that takes a solid hit from most any 22 is usually dead right there. "

I think we may be re-enacting the classic dispute over terminology that befell Elmer Keith. Elmer got a real reputation as a liar in some quarters when he would make statements like a given cartridge wasn't reliable on such and such an animal. People simply didn't read what he had to say. He never said that the animal in question couldn't be killed with that round. He said that it couldn't be RELIED on to drop the animal in question. He even went to some trouble to distinguish between the two statements, but to little avail. He once reported having killed a doe with a .22 revolver. Elmer KNEW that a doe could be killed with a .22, because he'd done it. But he'd never say that the 22 was reliable on a doe. (Actually, he said it was a fools stunt!)

Getting back to the immediate discussion, I never said that squirrels couldn't be killed quite effectively with a 22. I've sure killed a bunch just that way. What I DID say was that I didn't consider the .22 reliable on them. And before you give a knee-jerk disagreement, let me say that you are also right that when the .22 fails, the usual reason is shooter error. (Although the darn squirrel will sometimes jump just as the rifle fires ...)

But shooter error WILL occur because we are all human and subject to an occasional error. What I'm trying to say is that the .22 doesn't have a performance margin to compensate for my errors that I'm comfortable with. I feel that a scratch hit from the larger caliber is much more likely to put down a squirrel than the same hit from a .22. I've shot a lot of squirrels just as you have. Maybe you're a much better shot than I am, and you hardly ever just wound one and had it still struggling when you get to it, or even have it escape to suffer. I won't say that happens very frequently to me, but I sure despise it when it does. And every one I've encountered has been with a .22.

Hmmm. Not true: I've also had it happen with shotguns, but with a shotgun, hit location is sheer chance. There's bound to be some percentage of shots that result in no lethal hits. But that doesn't petain well to the 22/32 comparison.

Now I've shot a heck of a lot more squirrels with a .22 than with a .32, and simple chance would suggest that this would produce more scratch hits than the .32. But I'd say that perhaps one in five or six hits with a .22 is less promptly effective than I'd like.

Despite the much greater use of the .22, I've also shot a fair number of squirrels with a .32RF. At a guess, I'd say something in the neighborhood of 150 squirrels. I'm no better shot with the .32, and no luckier either. But to date, I don't recall shooting a single squirrel with the .32 that wasn't dead on the spot. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but I can say with assurance that - in my experience - the percentage of scratch hits is far lower with the .32 than with the .22. Head shots, shoulder shots and lung shots, the .32 still beats the .22 hands down - in my experience.

[35remington]

Since squirrels tip the scales at a whopping 1 1/2 to two pounds, we're teetering dangerously toward declaring the .22 long rifle "unreliable" on everything in this thread, since game animals don't get much smaller than this! Certainly the long rifle is reliable on animals it has been used to bag for over 100 years or it wouldn't have supplanted the larger caliber rimfires on small game of the rabbit and squirrel variety. I'm not going to promote it as a larger critter round as I believe it's overmatched there, but it is effective on small game of the type we most often hunt and for the tree squirrels we're discussing.

Yes, I hardly ever wound one (but it does happen to me, even with a 32-20 OR long rifle), but that is part of my ammo choice as well as shooting ability, and I always used crossed sticks of a long length to allow higher (but safe) angle shooting. I won't shoot less effective ammo either, and the .22 long rifle ammo does vary. Pointy target velocity ammo is slower to kill on body shots. But that's the wrong choice for the job.

Now, let's not split the hair that says the long rifle will kill, but isn't reliable on tree squirrel because I'm certainly not going to agree with you there, nor will many others that use the .22. That's implying that we're lucky to kill the critters as quickly as we do, and it's not luck. In the vast majority situations it's quite adequate and reliable. I dare say the long rifle produces less wounded game when used within its limitations than many other cartridges, used on whatever it is they're considered appropriate for. (I'll bet the 30-06 wounds far more deer than the 22 wounds squirrels, and nobody considers the '06 "unreliable" on deer). This is consonant with its shootability and accuracy in most rifles, and for squirrel the tissue damage produced is quite enough to do the job.

Had you my experience with the long rifle, you'd say the same things as I'm saying. And I suppose given your circumstances, maybe I'd say the same as you. But I don't experience those things, so here I am debating the point. And I've shot the .32's and .25's and wonderful cartridges they are. But necessary for squirrel they're not.....not for me. And, apparently, others as well.

The .22 long rifle most certainly is reliable on tree squirrel, and let's define that....it kills cleanly the vast majority of the time, in my hands and apparently in most guys who hunt these animals, or they still wouldn't be using .22's. And they continue to do so.

Let me also point out that in stumping for the .32 you're likely giving up accuracy that is more on the side of the long rifle chambered arm. So maybe you're making a higher percentage of poor hits for accuracy reasons and marveling at the incapacitation that is still evident. I know I do with my .25-20, as hits in the middle can still bring them down quickly, but a poor hit is just that and isn't to be relied on. FWIW, the CCI's do much better than I'd expect with the few poor hits I've had. As good as a 25-20? No, but then I don't expect a 25-20 to kill certainly with a poor hit either, and I blame the shooter and not the cartridge.

Given a small vital area, and I mean small in the sense that the vital organs aren't very big, a .22 long rifle, especially in expanding form, produces plenty of damage to kill tree squirrels reliably and quickly in the vast majority of instances. Had I been arguing about shooting raccoons and such, I certainly wouldn't be stating things the same way because I have shot raccoons with .22's, and they often don't take immediate notice of a hit. Simply a function of not enough damage being produced.

My 25-20 is certainly more effectively there. But in questioning the .22 long rifle ("not sufficiently reliable") on squirrels I get the feeling that we're overstating things more than a little bit for the vast majority of hunters that take to the field.

I've expressed my viewpoint and enough said. No need to derail a good thread; just my attempt to restore a little evenhandedness. Please take this as the informed, friendly debate I'm intending this to be.

[Molly]

... I've expressed my viewpoint and enough said. No need to derail a good thread; just my attempt to restore a little evenhandedness. Please take this as the informed, friendly debate I'm intending this to be.

Not a problem. I read disagreement in your notes, not rancor. We've both presented our positions for everyone to consider, and we really don't disagree very much. I don't see why we can't put the small area we DO disagree about down to individual preferences and let it go at that. Deal?
Molly

[35remington]

Yep, deal. It's individual preference as you stated; my opinion is a long time in coming.

I agree about the larger calibers as far as effectiveness, but I still think the long rifle is reliable. My situation is that sometimes a quiet gun is what I need and I've a plain jane but effective .22 and a good trigger. I got one of the first year production Marlin 880SQ's with the true match chamber and put a Rifle Basix trigger on it that runs 18 ounces. It's a rifle I could afford at the time and it's turned out pretty well.

Assuming I shoot conditioning shots through it before the hunt I make a higher percentage of good shots with this than centerfire rifles of low speed out to 60 yards. I have to humbly admit that with the plainbase bullets that I cast, and at the low speeds suitable for squirrel shooting, I cannot produce the accuracy of a match chambered .22 long rifle shooting subsonic ammunition. I don't feel too bad about it, and it makes a pretty decent, sure killing squirrel rifle.

[NoZombies]

Not to further fuel a fire, but rather to clarify a few things;

I own more .22's than any other caliber, I shoot more .22 ammo than anything else, and I recognize that the .22 is a sufficient cartridge against squirrels and other small game. If you read my original post, I mentioned that my quest was to find the "perfect" squirrel rifle. For me, that meant something that had more power, but without more meat damage or noise.

When I was a young teenager hunting squirrels, I was limited to the ammo available to me at the local hardware store or wally world. That meant I essentially had my choice of winchester RN ammo, remington .22 short, or CCI minimags, with an occasional variation. So that's what I was working with trying to find a better round. That was what started me down the path of experimentation that lead to me pulling, modifying and reseating the bullets from the ammo I had.

I don't disagree with the statement that a .22 is sufficient for small game hunting. But In my mind, there's a difference between sufficient and ideal.

As far as the .22lr's supplanting of the larger rimfire calibers, I think that cost became as much of a factor as anything else. After all, the .22 was *sufficient*, and after WWI the prices of the larger RF calibers where generally at least double that of the .22.

I know what my budget was like when I was a teenager, and I can only imagine that for most teenagers, and especially during the depression, the cost of a few small game animals lost due to the less powerful cartridge would be overlooked, since the ammo was less expensive. More rounds could be shot for the same money, so the "cost per squirrel" was still lower, even with some more lost animals or needed follow up shots.

I started hunting squirrels with an air rifle, and it too, was sufficient. A great number of small game animals are put on the table by air rifles every day. I'm sure that I could do it again if needed, just as I'm sure that I could press any number of my .22 rifles into action for the same purpose. And I still do.

This thread, and my quest, isn't about belittling the .22, but rather about duplicating the .32 RF cartridges.

I apologize that comments about the .22 offended, I meant in no way to disparage the round.

[35remington]

Interesting. I consider the long rifle with a good subsonic HP just about ideal for squirrels, given accuracy, killing effect, sufficient range and minimal meat damage, which prompted the response. No surprise there given the War and Peace I wrote in the last several posts.

And no doubt cost was the major player as to why the .22's survived and the larger calibers did not, but if it was that inadequate for squirrel and rabbit at least some reasonable larger caliber alternative would have survived along with it.

[NoZombies]

Just an update for anyone interested, There are two new heeled bullets in the catalog over at http://accuratemolds.com/ that may or may not work if you're loading the .32 colt cartridges.

I don't have either one in my hands, but the 31-090-C looks like it might be a good choice. The heel is more or less to the same dimension as the original ideal mold designed for the .32 colt.

Check out a drawing here: Mold 31-090-C (http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-090C-D.png) Sadly, not all the dimensions made it to the drawing, but it is designed for the .32 colt, with a diameter of .314-.315

[Mk42gunner]

The design looks good to me, unfortunately I just found out how much my daughter's car insurance will be; slightly more than twice what mine is:holysheep for the same vehicle.

Oh well there is always the letter to Santa...


Robert

[sailor]

Hi Molly- after reading all this I have to relate my favorite pistol is a Stevens single shot break-open. It had a dead .22 barrel, so I pulled it off and made a new one from a left over piece of .30 cal. I cut off 10" and sigle pointed the chamber, not having a .32 S&W reamer, and dovetailed a block to make the hinge, and another at the back to grab the wedge. The bore was raised .10 or so as I recall, to use the existing firing pin. Wonderful to shoot, although with the 10" barrel it is not so quiet, but great fun to shoot. Two years ago I put a scope on it, because I can't see as well as I used to either. But there are lots of those Stevens out there with pitted bores, and this is a way to put them back into use without ruining the collector value. The original barrels drop right back into the frame when it it time for them to move on.
I have also re-chambered four Favorites from .25 Stevens to .25 short Hornet. As long as the bore is good this works well.
I love bringing the old ones back to useful life!
George

[Molly]

Hi Molly- after reading all this I have to relate my favorite pistol is a Stevens single shot break-open. ... I have also re-chambered four Favorites from .25 Stevens to .25 short Hornet. As long as the bore is good this works well. I love bringing the old ones back to useful life! George

Hi Sailor!
That sounds like a really neat trick! I'll have to give it some thought. Tell me more. What kind of accuracy are you getting from the scoped version?

[Molly]

Hi guys,

I promised to let you know when I got my .32 rifle in from John Taylor, and I got it today. It's a real beauty, especially in the work that John did.

I'm refinishing the stock, as the original varnish had a few small scratches. The walnut stain is drying as I write. Looks great. When it's dry, I'll give it a coat of semi-gloss polyurethane clear. [Come on! DRY, darn it!! (I'm dying to take it out and shoot it!)]

Sadly, when I took the stock off, there was some VERY minor rusting inside the mechanism. Not John's fault, just entropy going downhill. I think the last Savage-Stevens M. 94C was probably made sometime around 1940 or 1945, and this little jewel looks like factory new except for that and the few varnish scratches. And the rust cleaned off so completely you would have to know where it was to be able to see where it was.

Also, I've got it slathered inside and out with Alox 165, which is the stuff Rem, Win, etc put on new guns to protect them during shipping and storage, sometimes for years. (There are advantages to having been a research chemist!) It'll keep it mint for longer than I'm going to care about it.

I put a 4 to 12 x scope on it. Looks ferocious! The 4x will be for hunting, and the 10 or 12 x will be used for load development.

[NoZombies]

Pictures! Pictures! Where are the pictures???

[Molly]

Pictures! Pictures! Where are the pictures???


VBG! When I get it put together again ... Durn stain is taking forever to dry!

[Mk42gunner]

Pictures, heck. I want to see how it shoots. I have been too busy putting my four wheel drive back together to do much with my small rifles.

Robert

[NoZombies]

Yeah, I want pictures of the targets too.... Molly, you listening? *VBG*