Ignition Problems

[daddywpb]

I have been having some ignition problems with a T/C Renegade. Almost every time, the gun doesn't fire on the first cap, but fires on the second one. The nipple is a new T/C Hot Shot, and the problem occurs no matter which brand of #11 cap I use. The Green Mountain barrel is new. I swab the bore with a patch wet with alcohol after each shot, load, first cap is a pop, second cap - boom. I solved the problem by firing a cap each time after the cleaning swab and before loading. Still using two caps per shot, but it works. I was wondering if anyone would know of an underlying problem that might be causing this. I've never had to do this with any other rifle before. Not really a problem on the range, but it will be for hunting.

[fishhawk]

had sort of the same problem once. ended up being the nipple was just about bottomed out in the drum and could get no powder under the nipple. took some of the length off the bottom of the nipple with a file and has worked well ever since. steve k

[mooman76]

I think it's the alcohol. Try swabbing with a water based solution and don't saturate it to the point it will leave some behind in the barrel. Sounds like the same problem people have when trying to fire with the first load after cleaning and they have a small amount of oil in the barrel. If you aren't already, run a dry patch down the barrel after the wet patch to dry it out.

[DIRT Farmer]

How wet is your swab? Are you leaving a wet gob in the breach? try loading without swabing and see if that works. If it does try using a "dryer" swab patch. The powder can bridge on the top of the breack plug and not allow the powder in the flash channel. Also, if you are not cleaning the flash channel with a pipe cleaner you may be building up crud in it . Just some ideas.

[405]

Pretty stock answers will respond to this common question.

It will be one or two possibilities- either junk somewhere in the flash channel or entry into the chamber area OR a mechanical blockage in the flash channel (machining sprue, bur or mis-alignment along the flash channel.

Might try-

1) make sure the cap fits the nipple correctly.

2) For range between shot swabbing- try using a breech plug end scraper with a patch. Most breech plug end scrapers are smooth sided. With a hacksaw and drill or drill press put a couple of sharp grooves around the sides of the scraper like most jags have.... this will better hold a patch. After a shot put a small amount of moose milk on a large patch. Put the patch over the scraper and use it as a jag. When the scraper and patch contact the breech plug end... give it a turn or two. Repeat twice with dry patches also jagged over the scraper. This should clean most of fouling around the breech end and the entry from the flash channel. A tight fitting jagged dry patch can be pumped rigorously up and down in the bore forcing air in and out of the nipple. This will help clear and dry the flash channel. If you can't hear the air going in and out of the nipple there is a clog.

3) Remove the nipple and fish a small pipe cleaner down thru the channel hole until it enters the chamber area. You might be able to feel any obstruction along that path. Or, in a dark room, shine a small very bright light into the muzzle while looking into the flash channel/hole with the nipple removed. That may reveal something.

4) Change your cleaning/drying/oiling routine. After a range outing, remove barrel and remove nipple from barrel. Put breech end into small tub of HOT soapy water and pump/draw a jagged, large patch up and down the bore to clean and heat bore/barrel. Then, using same technique pump/draw a jagged patch up and down bore with the breech end in a tub of HOT clean water to rinse. Follow this by running a few jagged drying patches thru the bore. The hot barrel and the dry patches will speed the drying process inside the bore. Wait about 10-15 minutes and spray some VERY light oil like WD40 on a patch and coat the inside of the bore. Repeat this with another WD40 swab if the first patch shows a little oxide residue. Clean the nipple with hot soapy water and rinse and run a small wire thru flash hole to clean out any debris. Let nipple dry and put back into drum/bolster/snail.

If it is a mechanical flash channel obstruction then some correction will have to be dealt with- like removing the plug/drum/snail/bolster from barrel or sending it back to GM.

[Maven]

"I swab the bore with a patch wet with alcohol after each shot, load, first cap is a pop, second cap - boom."

daddywpb, The WET patch may be your problem: it's too wet. However, this begs the question, Why are you using a wet patch after each shot? Are you using patched round balls? Conical bullets? If the former, a dry patch after seating (but before capping or priming if a flintlock) and again after firing works well. If the latter, a DAMP patch after each shot is correct. Also, check out the nipple as per Fishhawk's recommendation. Lastly, is it possible that you are using a not-so-fresh can of powder*, which may also be part of the problem?


*Real black powder? Pyrodex? Triple 7?

[docone31]

Look at the hammer. My rifle used to misfire untill I scraped the crud from the cap pocket on the hammer itself. It was not getting a square hit.

[daddywpb]

I'm shooting FFg Goex and a patched ball. No conicals. I have been making the cleaning patch pretty wet, so that may be the problem. Thanks for all the advise!

[mooman76]

Sound like almost definately your problem, too wet of patch. Your first cap is drying out the powder and nipple area enough that the second is lighting it.

[daddywpb]

I thought the alcohol would dry quickly. Thanks a lot everyone. I appreciate the help!

[10 ga]

If your using patched roundball then you don't need to clean til the end of the shooting day or you're so fowled you can't get the ball down the barrel without pounding. Use well lubed patches that have a good BP lube and you are essentially swabbing the barrel with every loading. If you are using a "wet" patch that's not necessary, only a damp patch will clean a lot of crud out and isn't so hard to dry out. All of the advice is pertinent. In my 45 years of BP shooting I've had each and every one of the mentioned items in the many posts happen. If there are some other reliable, dependable, knowledgable, and well experienced BP shooters close by have a shooting session with them and see if they can help with your troubleshooting. 10 ga

[daddywpb]

I've been shooting black powder rifles and pistols for about 35 years or so, have been using alcohol swabs between shots for about 20 of those years and have never encountered this problem before. Personally, I don't keep shooting until fouling prevents me from loading, but it could just be me. I guess we're never too old to learn.

[mooman76]

Yes we are never too old to learn. I learn something here almost every day it seems like. I usually don't swab at all except for my smaller calibers. Accuracy suffers allot if I don't so I swab about once every 5 shots or so and that seems to work fine. Some people do like to swab every shot and it works for them. It depends on the lube and some other factors I'm sure.

[fishhawk]

had a .36 at one time had to wipe the bore after every shot or by the 3rd shot it was shreading patches so bad you couldn't hit a barn door with it never did get it to stop finnaly got rid of it. steve k

[Hickory]

When I used to own one of those nipple huggin' rifles I had the same problem.
Until I learned the trick.
Before going out hunting run hot soapy water through it,
with the nipple out just as you would when cleaning it.
The again with the nipple in. Flush with clean water and let it air dry.
Then use a patch with very little oil on it and run it down the bore.
If you are unsure what "very little" is put the oily patch between several paper towels to remove excess oil. Do this when the barrel is hot and dry.
Your gun will go bang the first time-every time.

[smilie=l:

[Blammer]

I suspect that after your cleaning you are leaving some "fouling residue" in the way of the 'fire'.

the first cap clears it.

[docone31]

Another thing to look to, when stuff like this happens,
The nipple gets flowered at the end.
What leads me to think of this is the mention of double hits to fire. When my rifles do that, and they do, it is usually crud in the hammer indent, or the nipple is flowered a little. It takes two strikes to get fire when that is going on.

[10 ga]

Dittos for docone31, I have had the nipple peen out from the hammer hits, especially if someone has done a lot of dry firing of the gun. It prevents the nipple from being down on the nipple and it has to be driven down firm by the 1st hammer hit then it goes on the second hammer hit. When this happens and I don't have an extra nipple readily available I just chuck the nipple in the ole 1/4 drill and hit the nipple with a light file on my leatherman, some sandpaper or emry cloth while spinning and cut it down. Cap slides on real good n tight and goes off easily. I equip all my hammer guns with "Spitfire" nipples. Most with musket nipples if at all possible. You can get a "Spitfire" with the threads to fit the Renegade that takes musket nipples and that is likely to solve the problem if you can't find out what is happening. Just make sure the hammer hits centered and square on the nipple and the musket cap is very dependable. I guess this makes a total of $.03 advice. 10 ga

[idahoron]

I have several Renegades with Green Mountains. Here is what I do. I clean with windex but your cleaner is fine. After you swab with the liquid, swab with a dry patch. Then put another dry one down. Fire a couple of Caps into the dry patch. The dry patch should turn Brown with the fire. Now your ready to load. I use Pyrodex P for all my GM barrels. I pour the powder in and lean it to the nipple side. I tap the stock a couple of times and then I use a over powder wad. I sit the bullet on the over powder wad and shove it down. Mine always fire every time no hang fires. Ron

[DIRT Farmer]

Daddywpb your gun will tell you what it likes. The standard wet patch to give you an idea, take a piece of patching and get it wet then "chew" it dry. the wiping patch should be damp, not wet. Some guns will shoot wet some dry some you can shoot all day without cleaning. Hunting loads in my 50 flint with tallow patching 5rds are the limit without wiping, but I load tight. In the 40 it wants damp patch both sides, then dry. The T/C breach plug has a powder chamber in it and if you push fouling into it or get to much moisture in it it will "bridge" and not fill. T/C makes a scraper shaped to fit in this chamber, shaped simular to the breach face scraper 405 posted. Any fouling or scale in the flash train under the nipple to the powder chamber can cause problems. Clean and dry a T/C should shoot all day with no problems.

[Geraldo]

Two things:

Is the new GM barrel brand new, recent production, or new to you? A few years ago they fixed a bad batch of nipple threads using helicoils, and sometimes the helicoil is long enough to block the channel. Even without a helicoil I've found that some of my GM barrels are touchier than others. I can shoot my .40 and one .45 all day without ignition problems, but another .45 and .54 will eventually need the nipple pulled out and cleaned and possibly a bit of ffffg, then they're fine. It's just rifle voodoo.

Second, my only experience with the Hot-Shot nipples was negative and I've never used them again. Do you have a standard TC nipple you can try?

Finally, I assume the "wpb" is West Palm Beach, are there any decent ranges down that way?

[daddywpb]

Geraldo,

The GM barrel is brand new. I started with the original T/C nipple and switched to a Hot Shot in an attempt to fix the problem, so it has happened with both of them.

I go out to the Sherriffs range by 20 mile bend when it's open to the public. Usually once or twice a month.

Are you down this way?

[Geraldo]

daddywpb,

I got busy and forgot I asked you the question. I'm in St. Lucie county and I usually go up to the state range in Sebastian to shoot.

[daddywpb]

I've heard about that range. Some friends of mine go there, but they live in Stuart. I'm in West Palm. That's a long drive. The PBC Sheriff's range is very nice. The only bad thing is that it's only open once or twice a month to the public.

[daddywpb]

Well, I got this rifle back to the range today. The suggestions that I was cleaning too much were apparantly right on. Today I swabbed the barrel with a damp patch and one dry one every 5 - 7 rounds. I fired one cap after cleaning, and had no misfires, and no problems loading. I shot a twelve shot group that a flyer stretched out to 2 1/2 inches at 50 yards from shooting sticks. I have a pic, but I gave up trying to post it. Thanks to all for the help. :grin:

[10 ga]

I hope everybody who has ignition problems with MLs will do a search and find this post. It covered most of the problems encountered with hammer guns but there is always something new. 2 pages of posts on ML ignition problems and even some leads on where to shoot. "Awsome" 10 ga